FORUMS: list search recent posts

Real time multi scopes in FCPX

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
olof ekbergh
Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 3:49:53 am

Using Scope Box:



Olof Ekbergh


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 4:06:38 am

Something wrong with just hitting Command 7 and using the ones built into X?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Glenn Grant
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 4:44:17 am

FCPX only gives you one scope at a time


Return to posts index


Bill Davis
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 7:32:01 am

Maybe it's just me. I don't ride scopes nearly as much as I did in my analog days, because today's digital signals don't degrade or drift nearly as much as the analog signals of my youth.

In my workflow, If I see a skintone problem I'll pop up the vectorscope. And when it's time to check the master, running the WFM or RGB parade to ensure legal levels is smart. But other than that, when I'm editing, I want to concentrate on content - not engineering.

But I totally get that others feel differently.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 12:51:11 pm

[Bill Davis] "I don't ride scopes nearly as much as I did in my analog days, because today's digital signals don't degrade or drift nearly as much as the analog signals of my youth."

That's not why you use them.

[Bill Davis] "But other than that, when I'm editing, I want to concentrate on content - not engineering."

I find that when people say they prefer to concentrate on the "art" rather than the "craft", they rarely can deliver on either.


Return to posts index

olof ekbergh
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 1:11:37 pm

I don't use scopes all the time, but on the final CC pass I always do, and then it is handy to have parade WF and VS all at the same time. ScopeBox makes that possible even on a MBP.

I also turn this on if I have a problem shot I need to find out if it will be possible to fix. I usually do "heavy " CC in Resolve and that spoils you with scopes.

You can also put Scopebox on an external monitor to make more real estate.

Maybe the next release of FCPX will have this built in, but in the mean time...

Olof Ekbergh


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 4:22:16 pm

[olof ekbergh] "I don't use scopes all the time, but on the final CC pass I always do, and then it is handy to have parade WF and VS all at the same time. ScopeBox makes that possible even on a MBP."

Do you just have the scopes positioned behind the FCPX layout?

Is this using ScopeLink? How does that work, is it a filter?


Return to posts index

olof ekbergh
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 8:00:26 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Do you just have the scopes positioned behind the FCPX layout?

Is this using ScopeLink? How does that work, is it a filter?"


Yes I use ScopeLink. And I just put the scope layout usually parade - WF - VS.

You can resize and customize any way you want. Lots of different scopes and even preview (that I never use in ScopeBox.

Scopelink is just an output chosen in FCPX prefs.

I put the Scopebox app at the bottom behind FCPX, and just shorten the hight of FCPX just enough to see the scopes. They could also be on a different screen if you like.

If I output to my SDI interface then I don't use SB for scopes, I use real scopes, looped through my eval monitor. Though you could if you looped the signal back into a MBP using a Black Magic Decklink. And then it is really a perfect for very critical calibration. This also is great on location or in the studio.

Olof Ekbergh


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 8:01:41 pm

Awesome. Thanks, Olof!


Return to posts index


Steve Connor
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 2:50:52 pm

[Gary Huff] "I find that when people say they prefer to concentrate on the "art" rather than the "craft", they rarely can deliver on either."

I've worked with a large number of great Editors over the years who couldn't deliver a master to broadcast tech specs, they left that to the online Editor. It's just nowadays you usually have to do both.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 6:37:40 pm

Exactly. So when they eliminated that position that your great Editors had, in favor of the Online Editor position, then they no longer had the fallback of someone who knew the craft to make their cuts look good.

Unless Bill has a dedicated color correctionist working for him, but somehow I doubt it.


Return to posts index

Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 4:19:20 pm

In Bill's defense, there are numerous great film directors who either started out as editors and/or edit their own films, from David Lean and Robert Wise up to Roderick Jaynes (aka Joel & Ethan Coen). I doubt they made the leap to handling the great actors and great stories by being good on the vector scope. Just sayin'

Doug D


Return to posts index


Gary Huff
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 6:36:11 pm

So Bill's not really an editor? He wants to be a director?

Directing requires it's own craft as much as any other position. Now you can still turn out good work without knowing the craft, but then you're just requiring that the people who make you look good are also on the ball (and possibly, even ignoring what you have to say to them in order to do something that is of quality).

I fail to see how this applies, but then again, you're "just sayin'" so it's not like you're standing by your comment anyway.


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 6:50:33 pm

[Gary Huff] "[Bill Davis] "But other than that, when I'm editing, I want to concentrate on content - not engineering."

I find that when people say they prefer to concentrate on the "art" rather than the "craft", they rarely can deliver on either.
"


Bill's original comment was perfectly valid, many editors don't concentrate on the levels and corrections until the final pass, that's what he said his workflow was.

Not sure that justifies the comment you made.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


Return to posts index


Walter Soyka
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 7:47:21 pm

I don't think the bulk of this thread is in keeping with the one rule of this forum [link], "no posts about other posters." Let's elevate the tone.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index


Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 8:59:10 pm

Agreed, Walter.

My “just sayin’” post was a polite way of saying what Steve has reiterated: a highly-technical, comparing-shot color and density-along the way workflow is not a given. And following a “story-edit first, technical finish later” workflow doesn’t inherently indicate incompetence or inattention to craft.

This forum started as the “FCPX or Not “discussion, and much talk has been about "easy to use" or even "fun to use" features vs pro workflows like traditional organization and export of audio to ProTools, etc.

Bill’s comment, I think, fits neatly into that discussion. FCPX’s easy-to-access-and-use scopes means they are nearby … but if you find them intrusive, you don’t need to see them. Part of FCPX’s appeal is a boldly graphic, neat and easy to see/read interface - meaning you can choose an almost iMovie level of simplicity to your workflow, dragging, dropping and trimming shots … or complexify things as you turn toward technical & other “craft” issues.

We’ve said that part of the magic of FCPX is the $300 price for a basic NLE, and leaving the “build out” of more complex features to third-party apps.

The original post about seeing several types of scopes onscreen at the same time, optionally on a second screen, brings to the fore that discussion.

If you want to monitor several scopes as you cut, comparing shots, matching shots and creating your “look” along the way … this sounds like a nifty app/workflow. A kind of middle ground between FCPX's very simple, one-at-a-time scopes, and Resolve’s dedicated, full-featured workspace.

But sometimes in documentary, if you start fussing with and eliminating shots as you go because they won’t correct or “cut” well – you’re dead. Your first task is often to look for “storytelling pieces” … and often those selects are made on a content basis alone. You almost don’t want to acknowledge what might be “wrong” with a shot at that stage, because it may turn out that you HAVE to use it, quality be damned. THEN the craft of matching, altering, filtering and other techniques to make the poor quality an asset rather than a liability, begins. No less an “art” but pursued only after the “content” edit/workflow is complete.

Doug D


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 9:47:11 pm

[Douglas K. Dempsey] "But sometimes in documentary, if you start fussing with and eliminating shots as you go because they won’t correct or “cut” well – you’re dead. Your first task is often to look for “storytelling pieces” … and often those selects are made on a content basis alone. You almost don’t want to acknowledge what might be “wrong” with a shot at that stage, because it may turn out that you HAVE to use it, quality be damned."

This is so dead on Douglas.


I'm cutting a doc right now and I have to fight the urge to keep tweaking on shots that may not even end up in the doc.

I know better, but it's hard to stop.

I need lay out the story and then come back and start cleaning everything up just like you said.

It's hard : )


Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 11:46:15 pm

I have seen some non-full time editors that have just enough knowledge to barely function in an NLE get a rough cut done very quickly because they couldn't give a damn about the audio quality or the visual quality or even what track the clip is on. ALL they cared about was getting the story and weren't distracted by the art of editing.

Not completely analogous, but I remember when I first started learning X, it was on a project my wife was producing. We had a transcript of interviews made, and I diligently began logging and key wording all the different answers from the different interviewees with all the great new X tools so that I could begin qualifying what would go in the edit. Before I was even halfway done with that process, my wife had physically cut out soundbites from the paper transcript and taped them to a piece of paper in the order she wanted, completing the first rough cut before I had even begun to think about editing.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 11:59:14 pm

[Bret Williams] "I have seen some non-full time editors that have just enough knowledge to barely function in an NLE get a rough cut done very quickly because they couldn't give a damn about the audio quality or the visual quality or even what track the clip is on. ALL they cared about was getting the story and weren't distracted by the art of editing."

But then it's up to someone else to actually finish it up and make it work, right? And probably to shine the rough edges as well.


Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 12:20:02 am

Obviously.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 12:22:54 am

[Bret Williams] "Obviously."
So if Leonardo Da Vinci had merely drew a rough, stick figure outline of what he wanted and then some unnamed individual came in a actually painted over the lines and made the artwork "polished", who is the real artist?


Return to posts index

Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 12:50:51 am

Ha ha, well we know from his sketchbooks he was the Artist all the way along; like many painters the sketches often read as more expressive and spontaneous, but then again "painting" requires by definition the finishing of a "colorist"!

That's why the Inkers and Colorists for Marvel Comics negotiated up-front credits and eventual respect. The sketch may have mapped out intent, but until that calligraphy-like inking and color choice was added, you didn't have a final product.

I have never heard any New York filmmaker treat any name-brand mixer or colorist (like Sound One's Lee Dichter or Tape House/Goldcrest's John Dowdell in my era) as anything other than an artistic collaborator. And what those guys wanted from you in return, as an Editor OR a Director/Producer, was guidance, intent, anything but "on the nose" instructions. The same treatment as a DP or an actor wants, really. An agreement on approach or shared aesthetics, followed by those specialists turned loose on the material.

I guess that is the context of my original (admittedly failed) analogy: the first job of an editor is not necessarily finishing, but trying to find the rhythm, "voice" and intent of the piece among an avalanche of material.

Doug D


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 1:41:49 am

[Douglas K. Dempsey] "
I guess that is the context of my original (admittedly failed) analogy: the first job of an editor is not necessarily finishing, but trying to find the rhythm, "voice" and intent of the piece among an avalanche of material."


Yes, and in today's market, one usually cannot merely be an "editor" and hand off the rough piece to someone to finish up. It's, more often than not, all the same person.

And who is to say how much that finishing editor actually improved upon the original edit itself? On the rare occasions that I have been asked to put the "polish" on an edit, it has often involved actually fixing it.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 3:45:24 pm

[Gary Huff] "So if Leonardo Da Vinci had merely drew a rough, stick figure outline of what he wanted and then some unnamed individual came in a actually painted over the lines and made the artwork "polished", who is the real artist?"

I'd argue both.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 12:39:27 am

I like that Bret. MY own wife started out in journalism (for the original LIFE magazine in early-mid 70s) and the paper edit has been her stock-in-trade ever since. IF a transcript is in the budget, that's what happens first, exactly as you described.

If there is no transcript, it's pulling takes in FCP. So keywording a range works beautifully.

Of course in that workflow, the shots are not even looked at, because you're going to assemble the track first. Then decide what you're going to cut to.

And yes, as Gary says, somewhere along the line, the "radio play" you've been making is turned over to the craft of audio/visual filmmaking -- with all the specialists you can afford, finessing all the cuts, transitions, audio and visual treatments and effects you can come up with to correctly reflect, reinforce and enhance the audio/interview content, keeping your eyes on the screen but your mind on the "story" or topic.

By the end, everyone who works on it feels they have contributed both Art and Craft, hopefully!

Doug D


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 1:42:55 am

[Douglas K. Dempsey] "
By the end, everyone who works on it feels they have contributed both Art and Craft, hopefully!"


The issue is that art is subjective and craft is not nearly as much. You either know how to do something or you do not.

But you can not know how to do something and spread the word that your mistakes are intentional "art", even if that was not the case.


Return to posts index

Mitch Ives
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 4:57:24 pm

[Gary Huff] "But you can not know how to do something and spread the word that your mistakes are intentional "art", even if that was not the case."

I believe that's known as the "Pee Wee Herman defense"...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 11, 2013 at 11:42:47 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Dec 11, 2013 at 11:56:20 pm

[Gary Huff] "I find that when people say they prefer to concentrate on the "art" rather than the "craft", they rarely can deliver on either.
"


Well, here's a screen I built last year for an LAFCPUG presentation with still caps from projects from my prior couple of years work. Haven't had time to update it.



To be scrupulous, C, G and H (left to right, top to bottom) had others behind the cameras but the works these screen caps were pulled from were ALL edited by me. If you want to see where the editing fell on the brilliant to mediocre scale, they're mostly =on my website as clips (http://www.newvideoaz.com)

You're certainly free to post a verifiable list of your own work and then everyone can judge for themselves how well one of the other of us may or may not fit the "who can deliver" metric.

There are plenty of people here whose work blows mine out of the water - for both quality and prestige. But for you to imply that I haven't earned the right to my opinions via month by month, year by year in the trenches video production over nearly 30 years of sweat is not something I feel comfortable letting pass.

Perhaps I just didn't get the memo announcing that you'd inherited the mantle of "Scope God" - which I think has actually been Steve Hullfish's in the modern era?

HIM I've seen in the booth for Tektronix at NAB the past few years. You, Gary, not so much.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 12:07:56 am

[Gary Huff] "Frankly, I was incorrect in my initial reading of your post (I blame the headcold I am dealing with). I thought you were pooh-poohing using scopes entirely, when re-reading made it clear that it's not something you work with while you're in the edit and instead save it for later. Which is absolutely fine.

So I apologize."


Accepted.

Me too for my bristly rejoinder.

Moving on.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 12:06:34 am

Sorry, I shouldn't have pushed back on the above. Stressful day.

Suffice it to say that my wife just got the call from a client on a nice, juicy 5 figure project that we've been working on for seven freekin' months - saying they're going with us and are ready to sign the production contracts. So my mood has changed significantly.

Ignore whatever I said above.

Self-employment is such fun!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 12:11:52 am

[Bill Davis] "So my mood has changed significantly."

First of all, congrats.

Second of all, funny how that kind of news can pull a complete 180 on your day.


Return to posts index

Don Walker
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 2:13:58 pm

[Bill Davis] "Suffice it to say that my wife just got the call from a client on a nice, juicy 5 figure project that we've been working on for seven freekin' months - saying they're going with us and are ready to sign the production contracts. So my mood has changed significantly.
"

Congratulations!

[Bill Davis] "Self-employment is such fun"
Sometimes.......
I prefer being self-employed, but in all honesty, I am looking forward to Jan 1st, when I will start working full time, for my biggest client. Now if I can just talk them into letting me do my editing from my cozy home office!

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


Return to posts index

Mitch Ives
Re: Real time multi scopes in FCPX
on Dec 12, 2013 at 5:03:37 pm

[Bill Davis] "Maybe it's just me. I don't ride scopes nearly as much as I did in my analog days, because today's digital signals don't degrade or drift nearly as much as the analog signals of my youth."

I've learned to look at the footage carefully, since I'm asked to integrate a lot of stuff, who's origin I'm unaware of. If it's a consumer cam, I can bet it'll be running 110 IRE and need some fixing.

I also find a lot of that going on, because so much content goes straight to the web, where as much as I hate to accept it, it probably doesn't matter as much.

In addition, a lot of younger people frankly, don't know how to use scopes. When I taught for 5-1/2 years, I was surprised to see how many had either not heard of them, or didn't understand their importance. I'm not suggesting that's the case with you Bill as I certainly know that you do know how to use them quite effectively...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]