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Speaking of new codecs...

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David Lawrence
Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 6:43:25 pm

Looking forward to this:

http://www.eoshd.com/content/11534/new-h-265-codec-test-prores-4444-quality...

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John Davidson
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 6:51:37 pm

Hah! Thank you! I was looking for that article and couldn't find it - glad you did!

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 7:13:34 pm

Thanks for posting. With all due respect, until someone posts some difference mattes and I-frame edit comparisons, this test of theirs is meaningless.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Lawrence
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 7:15:52 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Thanks for posting. With all due respect, until someone posts some difference mattes and I-frame edit comparisons, this test of theirs is meaningless."

Good point. Still frames are also pretty useless for judging motion artifacts.

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David Lawrence
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 7:14:08 pm

You're welcome!

I have a Subsonic media server for my music collection. Last year, I built a custom transcoder that measures the bandwidth of my music player and transcodes a stream in realtime depending on bit rate.

If my iPhone is connected via wifi, it transcodes FLAC to 320K mp3. If I'm connected by 3G, it transcodes FLAC to 65kbps HE-AAC.

The thing that blew my mind is that the HE-AAC streams sound almost identical to the source FLAC files.

If H265 quality is as good as I've experienced with High Efficiency codecs on the audio side, this'll be a *huge* game changer.

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Oliver Peters
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 7:20:43 pm

While H265 might be a great distribution codec, I have yet to see anything to suggest it is acceptable for post, mastering or archiving. There is absolutely nothing that I've seen to quantify a claim of 99% of the quality at 1% of the file size. At least not at a profile level where production and post would be comfortable.

Remember this is a long-GOP. variable bit rate codec with a lot more variability than ProRes (also a VBR codec). As most of these codecs go, complex images look a lot better than less complex images, because they get hit with an inverse amount of compression. The obvious weak point is dissolving from a static, low texture logo to a fast-moving, highly-textured image.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Lawrence
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 7:38:46 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The obvious weak point is dissolving from a static, low texture logo to a fast-moving, highly-textured image."

Yes. Even a fade to/from black to a complex image is enough to break some codecs.

Back in 2001, I produced a multi-channel DVD installation project for an artist I collaborate with. The imagery was complex high-resolution x-ray photography.

The ProRes masters looked pristine but when we encoded to mpeg2 using Apple's then new DVD Studio Pro, the fades to and from black looked absolutely horrible. With days until our install, we took the files to an artist friend who is also an MIT engineer. He took one look and said "the codec is broken".

Fortunately, I had a friend inside Apple and they were able to sneak me a beta of the new mpeg encoder that would be in the next version of DVD Studio Pro. It worked. We got a clean encode and the show went on. :)

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Marcus Moore
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 8:07:26 pm

I can't imagine anyone sane suggesting either h.264 or h.265 as working codecs- but for delivery they are exciting. Certainly the tests I saw at NAB last year were impressive.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 9:11:59 pm

[Marcus Moore] "I can't imagine anyone sane suggesting either h.264 or h.265 as working codecs-"

And that's exactly why it will be so popular!

I don't know about you guys, but it seems considerable detail is lost on those screengrabs between h265 and PR444.

No doubt it's an amazing codec, but it's not the same quality.

Craig Seeman says encoding times are much higher for h265 than h264.

Jeremy


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David Lawrence
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 10:06:47 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Craig Seeman says encoding times are much higher for h265 than h264. "

The article implies that as well. Sounds like new chips will be needed to make it manageable.

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 10:09:31 pm

[David Lawrence] "The article implies that as well. Sounds like new chips will be needed to make it manageable."

And what is now new is suddenly old.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 10:10:35 pm

Encoding AND decoding. At the NAB floor demo of 4K material, the decoder had a quad core processor.

So we'll definitely need new hardware for something like the AppleTV before h.265 can come into play.

That said, the 4K material was running at between 3.5-7mbps. And on the 72" UHD screen they were running it on, it looked absolutely marvellous.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 10:21:23 pm

[Marcus Moore] "That said, the 4K material was running at between 3.5-7mbps. And on the 72" UHD screen they were running it on, it looked absolutely marvellous."

Wow. That is an impressive data rate, to be sure.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 18, 2013 at 10:25:45 pm

I was flabbergasted. No blockiness in low-contrast shadow detail, or high fast movement.



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Erik Lindahl
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 19, 2013 at 6:22:17 am

I saw H.265 demos at IBC this year but they where somewhat hard to grasp.

1. they where running 1080 HD at low bitrates (1-3 Mbps)
2. they where running 4K at low / moderate bitrates (3-7 Mbps)

However, both felt like H.264 at around 1/4 of the bit rate I'd expect the footage but there was clear compression artifacts. But full HD at 1.5 Mbps is impressive.

Still, H.265 is a DELIVERY codec as far as I know, not production or aquiring format. It will probably replace H.264 in things like DSLRS at some point opting for higher resolution at similar bitrate we use today. Ironic how DV-footage takes more space than HD-footage of a 5D Mk II... I guess the 5D Mk IV will do the same for 4K material? ;)

If H.265 supports 10-bit 4:4:4:4 formats and is efficient at it I can't say. That would be a boost for it as both a capture and delivery format. But the industry seems keen on high resolution vs high bit depth / color resolution. Native 1080p 4:4:4:4 10-bit I'd prefer a lot of times over some 4:2:0 8-bit 4K format.


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Andy Mees
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 20, 2013 at 3:44:26 pm

Bear in mind that in large part that blog's info seems to be derived directly from the sales pitch on the website of the company (CineMartin) who are selling the Cinec encoding software ... theres an alternative view over on the following website which seems a little doubtful:

http://cinescopophilia.com/hevc-h-265-royalties-are-killing-it-even-before-...


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Michael Gissing
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 21, 2013 at 12:46:10 am

Any one know what has happened with Redray? It too promised a 4k amazing streaming, playback format at lowish data rate.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Speaking of new codecs...
on Nov 21, 2013 at 4:35:01 am

[Michael Gissing] "Any one know what has happened with Redray? It too promised a 4k amazing streaming, playback format at lowish data rate."

I think the first round shipped over the summer sometime.

http://www.red.com/store/products/redray-player


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