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Creative Cloud

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

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Jeremy Garchow
Creative Cloud
on Nov 1, 2013 at 12:55:07 am

Today, I received the first set of design files from other artists (by way of producer), that originated in Creative Cloud.

I guess the world, or at least the little world that affects my distant and unknown colleagues, has moved on.

Godspeed.







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Al LeVine
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 1, 2013 at 1:38:20 am

I can't wait for this day.

All our projects and our finishing house is still using FCP 7. Until we're forced to switch for some reason, I can't say we've seen anything go that direction yet. Most people are still treating FCP 7 like the one and only alt to AVID. It's weird.


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Keith Koby
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 1, 2013 at 12:25:09 pm

Had know idea there was a music video from the beta band.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 1, 2013 at 2:23:10 pm

Yes, CC adoption is moving forward. Although the release that just hit last night seems to have a number of bugs and conflicts related to the Direct Link SpeedGrade integration. Bounce over to the various Adobe forums for more details.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 1, 2013 at 5:12:07 pm

Rumour has it the BBC are moving forwards with new Mac Pros and FCPX.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 1, 2013 at 5:24:09 pm

It seems there's a new rumor every week about what the beeb is doing.

I think they are too massive to commit to one OS, computer type, and software.

Will they have MacPros with FCPX? Most likely.

Will they have everything else? More likely.


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 1, 2013 at 6:29:46 pm

For sure. With Mac Pros.

I think for mainstream broadcasts and such like (Match of the Day, the News etc.) Avid is the weapon of choice and will always be so unless something cataclysmic happens. But for the segments and Docs (as a film editing tool) for which FCP7 is the current tool they are most likely going to slowly move over to X and not go the Adobe route.

I am not pretending to be an authority here. I work in a bubble.

I kind of like Premiere and am not technical enough to know what the objections are but for some reason they don't seem keen on that route.

Anyone anyone?

Bueller Bueller?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 1, 2013 at 9:20:20 pm

well says he -

I just spoke recently with a BBC media guy who would rather know - to my limited knowledge there are no real moves in that direction for FCPX as of yet - doesn't mean it wont happen, but X basically wasn't on his radar. He expressed polite interest and said he had heard there was an update coming.
I'm just after spending the last few weeks cutting a short film for BDA at BBC worldwide and well, like bloody everywhere - they are standing pat on FCP7 across over a half dozen suites currently - they have yet to make a decision (yay! FCP7 for evvvahh) but to my understanding FCPX realistically does not feature.

On another note - the next major BBC nature series looks like it will be cut in PPro: on one of the previous ones, the offline work files consumed roughly one third again in storage off the master material. And that was an extremely large number. that said, in that context the master material was on LTO - now the full volume will be going to native live playback storage - so swings and roundabouts.

Its pretty widely acknowledged that PPro handles, say, red extremely well at this point, also the new colour engine is a bit of a boon applying seamless adjustment layer LUTS throughout the editing process. and it is a reliable cross platform editing system advancing, under Al Mooney, at an insane rate of knots - and this from a company that is not about to be de-listed from nasdaq (that one's for you craig seeman - get in here and kick avid would you? I was busily badmouthing it to anyone who would listen to me in there, to probably greatly limited effect. As said - Avid is a mortal lock for the topline stuff.)

avid aside - anyone who doesn't take a long look at the PPro that is now developing is kind of out of their minds. It matches and exceeds FCP in practise, and it is forcibly trying to eat avid heavy iron with anywhere etc. Adobe really are not messing around.

that spiel aside - Garchow's point really is kind of the best one? - its basically impossible to deliver any kind of overarching statement relative to the beeb - its an impossibly big organisation. For instance - in retrospect - that purchase of the thousands of premiere licenses could look more like a late stage hedge against the failing digital management archive problems they got involved in.

Sky Branding and marketing, Associated Press London and Hogarth worldwide are all also settling on PPro. At this rate Adobe will figure they're on a winner with subscriptions. so that's great...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 2, 2013 at 6:22:34 am


I think we're probably going full circle. Nobody will care too much what software anything is cut on apart from a few (entrenched) editors.

FCPX will slowly be taken up as with last time and will find its natural place.

How many years after the release of FCP1 was it before Cold Mountain? It's the same story probably.

As predicted by many.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 2, 2013 at 2:49:57 pm

[James Ewart] "How many years after the release of FCP1 was it before Cold Mountain? It's the same story probably.

As predicted by many.
"


well, sort of - I think its a little risky to draw comparisons to FCP 1.0 - that was completely different software, made for different reasons by a quite different company nearly a decade and a half ago.

Apple may well not want, need or seek a cold mountain moment - its very extensible software tho - i had problems with some of his claims, but larry jordans entire presentation was designed to prove that point.

You could argue that the software that desperately wanted a cold mountain mountain moment, that lobbied for it and got it - is premiere pro. Joel and Ethan Coen have stated that they are cutting their next feature on premiere. Thats a Cold Mountain moment. Stone cold classic film makers, and two of the best editors on the planet endorsing an editing system that does not - up to that point, feature at that level of editing - that matches up pretty well to Murch and Cold mountain ten years ago. You couldn't miss the sheer joy and pride on Al Mooney's face when he spoke about meeting the Coens.

I think at a core level apple feel they have designed something that could execute a feature absolutely no problem - but features weren't the problem they set out to answer - what drove everyone crazy was that apple answered a different question about media and where it's going in the midterm. the first thing you think of, or that I think of, about FCPX, is that its an incredibly strong digital assets management system amongst other things. It feels largely designed to allow single operators handle staggering amounts of media and edit extremely swiftly and fluidly, and there's no reason that description doesn't match a features editor.

But if it doesn't end up doing so in practise, I doubt apple are going to lose much sleep over it.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 2, 2013 at 3:45:59 pm

I'm pretty happy with X. Plenty of people are. It seems more people seem to be taking notice. It's rather fun to work with. To me going back into 7 or PP feels like the stone age.

But if FCP X disappears tomorrow and I end up using Premiere after all I won't lose any sleep either.

After all it's only a bit of software.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 2, 2013 at 5:21:50 pm

[James Ewart] "I'm pretty happy with X. Plenty of people are. It seems more people seem to be taking notice. It's rather fun to work with. To me going back into 7 or PP feels like the stone age."

Setting all the other pros and cons of X vs. other NLE's aside, the biggest advantage of X to me as an editor is that essentially the only decision you have to make before performing an edit, is creative:

     Select source I/O, cut into timeline. Make technical decisions (what audio channels do I need etc) later.
     Or not at all. (am I going to overwrite something? What is it? How do I prepare the timeline to avoid that?)


Every other NLE I'm aware of requires you to make some technical decisions before you can make an edit. Some more than others, but with fixed tracks, there's no way around it. You have to, at the very least, make some patching decisions before you perform an edit. Having made those decisions every day for a couple decades, not having to make them is... fun. :-) And that's just one thing, there are countless others...

The other day I was cutting on 3 NLE's, X, 7, and Pr. I'm sure anyone who's is proficient in all 3 would agree that the latter 2 are not even in the same universe as far as letting you focus on your cut.

[James Ewart] "But if FCP X disappears tomorrow and I end up using Premiere after all I won't lose any sleep either."

I'm with you there, I'd sleep well too. Though I'd spend more time cursing at the screen. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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tony west
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 3, 2013 at 4:25:48 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Setting all the other pros and cons of X vs. other NLE's aside, the biggest advantage of X to me as an editor is that essentially the only decision you have to make before performing an edit, is creative:"


This is one of the best descriptions of the process I have seen Charlie. It's simple and I believe accurate.

When I'm working with X I'm not even really thinking about the software that much. I'm thinking about the story and how I'm gonna arrange it.

I'm thinking about the creative part, which is the fun part for me.

Even when I have to fix something (sound or look), which I consider the technical part I have not really had any problems doing that.


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 12:22:22 am

[tony west] "This is one of the best descriptions of the process I have seen Charlie. It's simple and I believe accurate."

Except I haven't worried about my NLE in a while either. FCPX is not new in that regard.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 12:47:17 am

[Gary Huff] "Except I haven't worried about my NLE in a while either. FCPX is not new in that regard."

Before you cut something in to the timeline in your NLE, do you have to make sure that the correct audio tracks are included or not, and make sure you're not going to overwrite existing clips in the timeline?

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 1:05:08 am

[Charlie Austin] "Before you cut something in to the timeline in your NLE, do you have to make sure that the correct audio tracks are included or not, and make sure you're not going to overwrite existing clips in the timeline?
"


seriously - why is that a problem? I'm not even half kidding at this point. Given the natural presence of multiple detached objects that you don't want to intersect - after effects can be a complicated environment - so can audio editing software - how much does it demand from a professionals brain to examine that?

why is it in editing that there is a guy that turns up on your doorstep saying "man wasn't editing stupid hard??? what was up with that complexxxity??"

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 6:03:42 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "seriously - why is that a problem?"

It's not a problem. In fact, I never even gave it a second thought in 20+ years of cutting. Until I started using something regularly that doesn't require me to think about it. And now, when I work in an NLE which does require me to think about it, I find it really, really annoying.

I can drive a car with a standard transmission. It's fun sometimes. But honestly , I prefer an automatic. In a good auto, I've got just as much control as I do throwing a stick around, so why bother...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:07:56 am

[Charlie Austin] " can drive a car with a standard transmission. It's fun sometimes. But honestly , I prefer an automatic. In a good auto, I've got just as much control as I do throwing a stick around, so why bother..."

Well, see--and I just love a stick shift (except maybe in heavy traffic.)


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:23:29 am

[Chris Harlan] "Well, see--and I just love a stick shift (except maybe in heavy traffic.)"

lol, as soon as I hit "post" I wondered how long that would take. To torture this analogy though, would you (well not you, but in a general sense) then say that automatic transmissions were unnecessary? Useless? Unprofessional? ;-) How about synchronized transmissions? Real Pro's double clutch right? And those automatic chokes? Was it such a problem to pull a knob? Jeez!

Anyway, as I said a couple days ago, MC, Pr and FCPX all suck. I'm switching to iMovie. Don't even need to set I/O points or... well... edit, actually. it's awesome. Can we get a forum topic for that please?

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Tom Sefton
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 8:42:04 am

Not to add to the analogy, but a racing driver will drive a manual car faster than an automatic, even if it has a double clutch and millisecond up and down shifts...

Loving learning FCPX at the moment, but each time a new job comes in I automatically click on the Pr app. In time that might well change though.


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 9:03:53 am

I think Formula 1 cars ditched the clutch some time ago!


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 9:44:45 am

[James Ewart] "I think Formula 1 cars ditched the clutch some time ago!
"


F1 cars have a clutch though it's only used by the driver when coming from a full stop. The driver controls shifting using the paddles behind the steering wheel though it's not an automatic transmission. It's an electronic process, as opposed to a mechanical one in a regular car, but when to shift is still completely up to the driver. Being able to independently control the wheel speed and the engine speed is can certainly be advantageous.

On a related note, =engine braking is another advantage to manual transmissions that can have an everyday use (depending on where you live). Growing up in the Midwest (with ice and slush blanketing the roads during winter) having a manual and being able to control the car's speed w/o touching the brakes certainly came in handy at times.




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Tom Sefton
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 10:03:00 am

Yes! It's what makes rally drivers so talented in comparison with F1 drivers. Manual cars, clutch, very high speeds, tree and spectator lined tracks and surfaces that change from tarmac, gravel, grass, mud, snow and ice!


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 4:18:14 pm

[Tom Sefton] " surfaces that change from tarmac, gravel, grass, mud, snow and ice!"

Not like those pansies and their asphalt! :-p


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 5:08:48 pm

I'm led to believe that saloon and rally car drivers more often than not bypass the clutch and jam the gear in to save time.


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 9:20:52 pm

[James Ewart] "I'm led to believe that saloon and rally car drivers more often than not bypass the clutch and jam the gear in to save time."

I do that when I'm late to work.


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:05:46 am

Another vote for the automatic. Changing gear manually is somewhat tedious.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:11:50 am

[James Ewart] " Changing gear manually is somewhat tedious."

Not if you take the drives I take.


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tony west
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 11:28:48 am

[James Ewart] "Another vote for the automatic. Changing gear manually is somewhat tedious."


hehehe I drove a stick for years and loved it, until I moved on a street that has a gazillion stop signs.

It got old real fast : )

Really though, it's a good analogy because have you notice………..it's very hard to find a car with a stick these days. Even a sports car.

Heck, it was getting hard 20 years ago when I got mine.

My dad had us learn to drive a stick so we could drive most any vehicle.

I'm glad I learned on tracks. If I ever need to go back.

I'm sure folks who like tracks don't want it to go the way of the stick. Hard to find.

Folks who like X don't want to go back to tracks.

If both groups could be assured somehow they could keep what they wanted there might be a little less tension ; )


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 11:30:27 am

Not in the UK.. other way round. Vast majority of cars are manual I would say. What does that say about us? Don't know a good thing when it's staring us in the face?


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tony west
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:50:34 pm

[James Ewart] "Not in the UK.. other way round."


ha, I wondered where they all went : )


It's interesting to see the contrast though.

So like if you went into say, a BMW dealership the 5 series models would be mostly sticks?


It's funny how different we are. You would be hard pressed to find a stick over here on a showroom floor.


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Steve Connor
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:53:29 pm

[tony west] "So like if you went into say, a BMW dealership the 5 series models would be mostly sticks?
"


A large percentage of cars in the UK are "stick shift" Auto transmission is too easy, we're made of sterner stuff over here in Blighty

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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tony west
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:55:01 pm

That's awesome Steve : )


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Steve Connor
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:58:00 pm

[tony west] "That's awesome Steve : )"

plus gas is over $10 a gallon!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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tony west
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 9:00:05 pm

[Steve Connor] "plus gas is over $10 a gallon!"

I thought about that also.

I would like to get over there sometime for a visit. It would be cool.


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Richard Herd
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 11:49:10 pm

Simply put...you don't eat in your car.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 12:27:27 am

[Steve Connor] "we're made of sterner stuff over here in Blighty
"


Carry on, Editor!


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Steve Connor
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 12:34:33 am

[Chris Harlan] "Carry on, Editor!"

Thanks Chris, I always appreciate your references to UK Comedy

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 5:09:24 am

Most mercedes would probably be auto. BMW 5 series... hmmm maybe mostly auto but 3 series would be manual and most map cars and Fords and Vauxhalls come standard as manual.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 9:13:38 pm

[Charlie Austin] " But honestly , I prefer an automatic. In a good auto, I've got just as much control as I do throwing a stick around, so why bother..."

Given my take on other issues it probably comes as no great shock to know that I drive a stick.

As for why bother - it's cheaper to buy, cheaper to repair, and for those reduced dollars gets better mileage and better performance. The negatives are poor resale value (but I keep a car till it turns to rust), PITA in heavy traffic, PITA when stopped on a steep upgrade (until you learn how to handle it) plus there are a lot of production assistants who can't park your car.

The other plus is the illusion that your an Indy car racer when you cleanly downshift taking a sharp turn on a steep grade. Beep beep!

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 4:40:17 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "seriously - why is that a problem? I'm not even half kidding at this point. Given the natural presence of multiple detached objects that you don't want to intersect - after effects can be a complicated environment - so can audio editing software - how much does it demand from a professionals brain to examine that?

why is it in editing that there is a guy that turns up on your doorstep saying "man wasn't editing stupid hard??? what was up with that complexxxity??""


This sums up the crux of the FCPX Debate, really.

It's not that track patching is a problem (or in the case of Pr before CC, it was kind of a problem), but is track patching really the only way to go about adding audio to timeline? Does it really HAVE to be that way? As much as tracks help, don't they also dictate a very specific and certain way of working?

One of my absolute favorite parts of FCPX, in the case of dialogue editing, is taking the time up front to choose audio channels which you can do to a number of selected clips at once (if you have 50 clips and want to modify all of the audio channels at once, you can do that as long as the clips have a similar audio channel config to start with). So, let's say that I want to use the boom for everything. I can select (and name) the boom channel, tune off everything else, and every time I use a clip from the browser, my named audio channel is added. If I take the time up front and make decisions, those decisions will follow all the way through the edit. Think of this way, I never really have to think abut audio organization again.

Now, very often my sound mixer will want all the available channels to do a sound mix (boom, lav, and sometimes even the camera mic), so when I need to send out an AAF, I can select all the dialogue clips, non destructively turn on the other channels, and make an AAF. My timeline looks exactly the same after that process in FCPX.

If I were doing this in a tracked environment, I'd have to either, add the "muted" channels to the timeline and carry those muted channels throughout the edit, or alternatively, match frame back to the other audio channels, play a massive game of track Tetris to add room for three more channels of audio PER CLIP.

That being said, audio editing is still somewhat of a sticking point for me in FCPX. The above described scenario is totally awesome, and works great with dialogue tracks. Other aspects of audio still needs some work.

It's not that I find track patching hard, it's that I find it to get in the way of the edit. It is really truly is fighting the interface. Pr has come a long way in track patching, but there are times when the non mono tracks are really bothersome, and mixing and exporting a multichannel master clip while monitoring in stereo is still impossible. All of that process is streamlined to a few clicks in FCPX, and I mean that literally.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 5:02:15 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "n a tracked environment, I'd have to either, add the "muted" channels to the timeline and carry those muted channels throughout the edit, or alternatively, match frame back to the other audio channels, play a massive game of track Tetris to add room for three more channels of audio PER CLIP."

Yeah, I love never (ok...rarely) having to match back to find and add another channel from a multichannel source, and that the timeline looks just the same if there are 6 channels used in a clip or just 1. And don't even get me started on the ridiculous simplicity of outputting split tracks and or AAF's for a mix. Yes, the latter requires an external app and a few mouse clicks. So what. Still far easier than prepping something for a mx in other NLE's. ;-)

[Jeremy Garchow] "That being said, audio editing is still somewhat of a sticking point for me in FCPX"

I'd disagree on the editing part, unless we're talking about editing components without detaching them. And I'm sure that will get better. I actually find editing audio in X to be much better than anything other than a a real DAW. The sticking point for me is doing anything other than basic mixing. It's not a huge deal, as i really don't need to do it day to day, but it wold be nice to be able to. Bussing, mix groups etc would be nice. Though preferably without the complexity that entails in other NLE's. I'm perfectly capable of using multiple virtual mixer-like tabs and windows and panels and knobs and buttons. I just don't want to. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 5:11:28 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I'd disagree on the editing part, unless we're talking about editing components without detaching them."

[Charlie Austin] "The sticking point for me is doing anything other than basic mixing. It's not a huge deal, as i really don't need to do it day to day, but it wold be nice to be able to. Bussing, mix groups etc would be nice."

Exactly. Being able to select multiple components as easily as it is to select other elements in large groups in FCPX, being able to add Roles to Components before they hit a timeline. Being able to adjust the clip height of individual clips for more granule audio control (Sometimes the audio levels as well as the color board control are way too insensitive). Being able to send a selection of channels to a Role and then have control over that Role (like being able to add a filter to it, or adjust all settings globally). I guess editing was the wrong term. Sorry.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 5:39:26 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "One of my absolute favorite parts of FCPX, in the case of dialogue editing, is taking the time up front to choose audio channels which you can do to a number of selected clips at once (if you have 50 clips and want to modify all of the audio channels at once, you can do that as long as the clips have a similar audio channel config to start with). So, let's say that I want to use the boom for everything. I can select (and name) the boom channel, tune off everything else, and every time I use a clip from the browser, my named audio channel is added. If I take the time up front and make decisions, those decisions will follow all the way through the edit. Think of this way, I never really have to think abut audio organization again."

Very interesting post. It's always interesting to hear about the different workflows other editors use.

Given that I'm generally editing shoots that I've directed, I've worked out my audio preferences before production begins and changing patching only happens when I'm correcting an audio problem that needs one of the alternative tracks. Your workflow wouldn't help me at all, but it seems quite reasonable.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Now, very often my sound mixer will want all the available channels to do a sound mix (boom, lav, and sometimes even the camera mic), so when I need to send out an AAF, I can select all the dialogue clips, non destructively turn on the other channels, and make an AAF. My timeline looks exactly the same after that process in FCPX."

That's fabulous, a real time saver.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:27:45 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " but is track patching really the only way to go about adding audio to timeline? Does it really HAVE to be that way? As much as tracks help, don't they also dictate a very specific and certain way of working? "

But patching isn't the only way. You can drag audio to any track you want. You can completely bypass patching if you want to.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:32:46 pm

[Chris Harlan] "But patching isn't the only way. You can drag audio to any track you want. You can completely bypass patching if you want to."

If the timeline is empty, yes, but if there is audio already in the timeline, then you can't throw in a clip as easily as you can in FCPX.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:41:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Chris Harlan] "But patching isn't the only way. You can drag audio to any track you want. You can completely bypass patching if you want to."

If the timeline is empty, yes, but if there is audio already in the timeline, then you can't throw in a clip as easily as you can in FCPX.
"


I can drag a piece of audio from either the source monitor or its bin straight to track 7 without batting an eye. I can do that in Pr and in MC. Why do you think I can't? Yes, I can arm or lock tracks in a way that keeps that from happening, but I don't have to. I know this because I do this every day. Why do you think differently?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:48:18 pm

I don't think this is a question of can or can't, i's what you need to do to patch it (or not).

It is also video and audio, not just an audio clip.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:02:14 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It is also video and audio, not just an audio clip."

Ah! You're talking about where attached audio goes when you bring in video. Yes, patching is the way to go, but I don't think about it much because those are the tracks I keep patched--1,2--and I drag other dia on those tracks downward when I'm looking to overlap.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:10:15 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Yes, patching is the way to go, but I don't think about it much because those are the tracks I keep patched--1,2--and I drag other dia on those tracks downward when I'm looking to overlap."

But then you want to cut in just ch 3&4 from your source, and not video. So you unpatch video, unpatch 1&2, and patch 3&4 to say, tracks 7&8. Then, you need video and ch 1&2, so you repatch video, repatch 1&2, unpatch 3&4. Unless you forget, then you hit undo and start over. I'm cutting in 7 right now and doing just that. It sucks. IMO of course. ;-)

Again, patching isn't a problem at all. Until you get used to not need to even give it a microsecond of thought....

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Richard Herd
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 11:50:46 pm

CTRL-S

It's the best way to cut dialogue


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 11:55:57 pm

[Richard Herd] "CTRL-S

It's the best way to cut dialogue"


All due respect, clip soloing in FCP 7 is um... awful.

EDIT: Oh... you're talking CNTRL-S in X. If so... yes. Though when cheating stuff you do need to disconnect...


-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Dominic Deacon
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 1:13:11 am

I don't use FCX but I don't necessarily have to worry about those things either. If I'm shuffling things around in Edius I can just stick the time line into tracks locked, ripple mode and everything will dance out of the way with no overwriting or clip collissions.


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Andy Mees
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 3:45:39 pm

Enough of your heretical Edius nonsense Dominic! ;-)


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 1:26:48 am

[Charlie Austin] "Before you cut something in to the timeline in your NLE, do you have to make sure that the correct audio tracks are included or not,"

No.

[Charlie Austin] "and make sure you're not going to overwrite existing clips in the timeline?"

Seriously, who has this problem?


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tony west
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 2:13:01 am

[Gary Huff] "No."

Come on now Gary, you know you have to pick a track at some point.

That's the whole argument over tracks and connected clips.

If they were exactly the same this forum wouldn't be here.


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 2:54:37 am

[tony west] "Come on now Gary, you know you have to pick a track at some point."

I don't have a problem worrying about overwriting clips already in the timeline.


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tony west
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 3:00:39 am

[Gary Huff] "I don't have a problem worrying about overwriting clips already in the timeline."

now now Gary, you know that's not what he was saying.

He wasn't talking about clips already in the timeline.

He was talking about first putting something in the timeline and selecting the track that you put it in.

You don't do that step in X

There is no track to select. That's what makes it different than before.


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 3:16:41 am

[tony west] "He was talking about first putting something in the timeline and selecting the track that you put it in."

I don't work that way.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 3:53:44 am

[Gary Huff] "[tony west] "He was talking about first putting something in the timeline and selecting the track that you put it in."

I don't work that way."


I was talking about patching tracks. Whether putting something in an empty timeline, or making revisions to an existing cut/version/whatever. I'm surprised you never need to do that.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 1:51:53 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I was talking about patching tracks. Whether putting something in an empty timeline, or making revisions to an existing cut/version/whatever. I'm surprised you never need to do that."

I rarely have to use track selections unless I am doing copy/paste operations, and it's not something I feel like I actively think about.

When you work in FCPX, you have "tracks" as well, as you have to position clips if you use the mouse so that they don't jump into the primary if that's not what you want, or use a different keyboard shortcut if you are editing from there.

I find I use the keyboard more often in FCPX, but it's not to the point where I feel that the workflow is so much more revolutionary than how I handle tracks within Premiere.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 4:14:53 pm

[Gary Huff] "I rarely have to use track selections unless I am doing copy/paste operations, and it's not something I feel like I actively think about. "

Fair enough. I, however, could literally not cut at all in a track based NLE/DAW without patching. Adding an audio/video clip from a multichannel source to a sequence with dozens of audio tracks and/or stacked video tracks without overwriting something would be impossible. And again, I never felt that I was actively thinking about it until I got used to not having to.

[Gary Huff] "When you work in FCPX, you have "tracks" as well, as you have to position clips if you use the mouse so that they don't jump into the primary if that's not what you want,"

I guess it's a work style thing, but I don't have that issue at all. Do you cut by dragging clips from the source to the timeline?

[Gary Huff] "I find I use the keyboard more often in FCPX, but it's not to the point where I feel that the workflow is so much more revolutionary than how I handle tracks within Premiere."

I pretty much only use the keyboard, maybe that's the difference. And I don't think the X workflow is wildly different than in a tracked environment. For me, it just removes the necessity of "handling" tracks at all. I like that. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:01:00 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Adding an audio/video clip from a multichannel source to a sequence with dozens of audio tracks and/or stacked video tracks without overwriting something would be impossible."

Well, the difference is that I am incredibly organized. I setup my sequences in as efficent a manner as possible, mostly so that if someone else has to take a look at it and work on it, they can get up to speed quickly without having to decipher a bunch of procedural b.s. Probably stems from my programming background.

I also don't work with multichannel audio. Never been asked for anything more than a stereo mix.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 3:05:38 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Before you cut something in to the timeline in your NLE, do you have to make sure that the correct audio tracks are included or not, and make sure you're not going to overwrite existing clips in the timeline?"

Rarely, sometimes, occasionally, often - all depending on the situation.

But I think you're working around a more interesting question- what does it mean to "make a cut?"

Are you talking about the mental decision or the mechanics of the act. While the mechanics may sometimes be improved with the magnetic timeline, does that ease come at the cost of a loss of clarity in your decision making due to the "fuzzy" information the magnetic timeline brings? Yes you don't have to patch your audio with X, but then your left with a mess of audio lanes that supply much less visual feedback then a tracked system. Your not getting something for nothing here, your trading mechanical ease for visual clutter, a trade that some might find worth it and others not.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 3:28:45 pm

What's the actual downside here?

For a professional mix we give to a professional mixer to do in Pro Tools or maybe Logic no?

Or if you are much cleverer than me you mix it yourself in one of those apps yourself.

I'm probably missing the point here..am I?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 5:40:46 pm

[James Ewart] "What's the actual downside here?"

I don't understand you, what's the downside to what?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 4:01:02 pm

[Herb Sevush] "but then your left with a mess of audio lanes that supply much less visual feedback then a tracked system."

Honestly, even though currently everything is a "mess" in the X timeline, I actually find it much easier to see what's going on and navigate, even in timelines with dozens of clips. Of course this is subjective, but clip names are easier to read, the rectified, dynamic waveforms are easier to read at a glance, (easier than they are in Pr to me), and the timeline index is really nicely implemented. It's kinda like learning a new language or something. Same letters, maybe slightly familiar, but they don't make sense. Once it's learned though, it's just as easy as your primary language.

Could it be better? Definitely, I'm not an "X is perfect" absolutist. It's really not a mess though, any more than Chinese or French is a "mess".

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 5:48:57 pm

[Charlie Austin] "this is subjective, but clip names are easier to read, the rectified, dynamic waveforms are easier to read at a glance, (easier than they are in Pr to me), and the timeline index is really nicely implemented."

That's the point, you have to actually read the clip names - in a tracked layout I can figure out whats going on just by glancing at the layout - much faster than having to read anything.

As for waveforms - my old favorite, now long dead NLE, *edit, had a wonderful feature whereby you could easily amplify the waveform as much as you wanted, in discreet steps, so that you could make out as much detail as you wanted in quiet passages. You could apply these changes to a selected clip, to a complete track, or to all audio at once. Wish I had that feature now.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 6:06:56 pm

[Herb Sevush] "That's the point, you have to actually read the clip names - in a tracked layout I can figure out whats going on just by glancing at the layout - much faster than having to read anything."

I see your point, though I really do feel it's as easy, or easier to see what's happening in an X timeline than, say, 7 or Pr. Very subjective of course. I do wish there was a way to automatically pin mx to the bottom and dia to the top or something, but I really don't feel that it's any more difficult to see what's happening in the TL than with tracks.

I should probably qualify this by saying that, other than keeping cut music together at the bottom and VO/DIA near the top, (do-able in X as well with a tiny workaround) I don't have a very organized timeline in any NLE when I'm cutting. My main concern is to fit as much as I can into as little vertical space as possible so I can see/manipulate it all without scrolling up or down or viewing tracks/clips at their tiniest possible size. I've always done my "mix prep" split after I'm done. I rarely, if ever, have less than 16-24 audio "tracks" in my timeline. often more. So that probably colors my preference...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 6:20:14 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I do wish there was a way to automatically pin mx to the bottom and dia to the top or something,"

Yes, that would change my whole outlook on the trackless idea.

[Charlie Austin] "I should probably qualify this by saying that, other than keeping cut music together at the bottom and VO/DIA near the top, (do-able in X as well with a tiny workaround) I don't have a very organized timeline in any NLE when I'm cutting."

I think this has a lot to do with your acceptance of trackless, since you didn't use tracks as an organizing tool before, your not missing anything now while gaining everything that X has to offer. In your case X makes a lot of sense.

[Charlie Austin] "I rarely, if ever, have less than 16-24 audio "tracks" in my timeline. often more. So that probably colors my preference..."

I would think so. I'm generally cutting with 6 to 8 tracks, but on those occasions when I'm using much more I have a specific layout that dedicates one monitor (I have dual 23" screens) totally to the timeline. 16 tracks are no problem that way, I haven't tried it with 24.

As I said to Jeremy, I do find these conversations about specific workflows very interesting and enlightening.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 6:47:28 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I think this has a lot to do with your acceptance of trackless, since you didn't use tracks as an organizing tool before, your not missing anything now"

That's likely true, though when I was mixing I did, of course, use tracks to organize, and that carried over when I started editing. Now, maybe because most of what i do is offline, that habit has over time receded into an afterthought for prepping tracks. (Which, thanks to X2Pro, i don't really need to do now anyway) I think if X gets something like Track Stacks in Logic it'd be the best of both worlds. You can fake it with Compound Clips, but they're clearly not designed for (and generally suck at) that use case....

[Herb Sevush] "As I said to Jeremy, I do find these conversations about specific workflows very interesting and enlightening."

Indeed. And civil as well. Someone will come along and ruin it soon enough... ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:02:42 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I think this has a lot to do with your acceptance of trackless, since you didn't use tracks as an organizing tool before, your not missing anything now while gaining everything that X has to offer. In your case X makes a lot of sense."

This is a big deal for me, as I like to stay organized. I grouped it under "editing" in a previous post, but it really is spatial organization.

A track allows you to see things at a glance, as you mention. FCPX doesn't have this part down quite yet especially when it comes to multichannel audio organization. I cannot select a group of related audio components very easily, or at least as easily as I could with tracks.

On the other hand, I do find the magnetic timeline to be a major advance in creative editing. The primary, secondary and connected methods are very very useful. Again, it's not about solving problems, or solutions to problems that you don't have, it is really thinking about it in a way that might be a better way of getting the job done. Not necessarily easier, faster, cheaper, but better. It still needs work, of course, but I don't think the metaphor is as flawed as it has been made out to be.

Another thing, I am surprised at how much I don't need to use mark in, and mark out. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, and goes against some form of "proper editing technique" that has been around since the dawn of the recorded electron, but I find I use "replace from beginning" to be so easy. The only in I have to mark in the in point in the event browser.

I also really enjoy the color board, and shockingly, I don't miss color wheels too terribly. It is more difficult when looking at a vectorscope to try and skew a color in or out with the color board. Perhaps they need a square vectorscope to match the color board? :) I'm kidding of course. Kind of.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:21:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I also really enjoy the color board, and shockingly, I don't miss color wheels too terribly. It is more difficult when looking at a vectorscope to try and skew a color in or out with the color board. Perhaps they need a square vectorscope to match the color board? :) I'm kidding of course. Kind of."

I'm addicted to Colorista II, won't leave home without it, so the type of native CC in any app is mostly irrelevant to me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:37:55 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[Charlie Austin] "I do wish there was a way to automatically pin mx to the bottom and dia to the top or something,"

Yes, that would change my whole outlook on the trackless idea.
"


Mine too.

[Herb Sevush] "[Charlie Austin] "I should probably qualify this by saying that, other than keeping cut music together at the bottom and VO/DIA near the top, (do-able in X as well with a tiny workaround) I don't have a very organized timeline in any NLE when I'm cutting."

I think this has a lot to do with your acceptance of trackless, since you didn't use tracks as an organizing tool before, your not missing anything now while gaining everything that X has to offer. In your case X makes a lot of sense.
"


I edited that way for years, but I've found over the last six or so, that I really benefit from an organized audio structure. It makes for great navigation and gives me a lot more feedback about what is going on. This lack of visual organization is what I most dislike about X.


[Herb Sevush] "[Charlie Austin] "I rarely, if ever, have less than 16-24 audio "tracks" in my timeline. often more. So that probably colors my preference..."

I would think so. I'm generally cutting with 6 to 8 tracks, but on those occasions when I'm using much more I have a specific layout that dedicates one monitor (I have dual 23" screens) totally to the timeline. 16 tracks are no problem that way, I haven't tried it with 24.
"


I generally have 12 to 20 tracks, and break them down into wider bands, so that SFX, for instance, is a region about six tracks thick. One of the great new things about audio in Pr is that I can assign that whole region to a sub and treat the sub as if it were a single track.


[Herb Sevush] "As I said to Jeremy, I do find these conversations about specific workflows very interesting and enlightening."


Agreed. Its the main reason I keep coming back. That, and that I need the eggs.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:41:53 pm

[Chris Harlan] "One of the great new things about audio in Pr is that I can assign that whole region to a sub and treat the sub as if it were a single track."

And the color coding. Oooohhhh the color coding.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:50:01 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Chris Harlan] "One of the great new things about audio in Pr is that I can assign that whole region to a sub and treat the sub as if it were a single track."

And the color coding. Oooohhhh the color coding.
"


Can I? Color-code tracks? I do that in Avid all the time. I didn't know Pr had picked it up, too. I'll have to look.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:00:27 pm

Not tracks (although you can NAME tracks in Pr which is also nice) but clips. The color coding of clips in Pr is awesome.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:09:36 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Not tracks (although you can NAME tracks in Pr which is also nice) but clips. The color coding of clips in Pr is awesome."

Ah. I just used clip colors in Pr. on a large sizzle and found them useful. Comedy became one color, new shows another, returning shows another, movies another, etc. I found it useful in contemplating balance and product representation. I doubt, though, that I would use it in most other situations.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:01:06 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Can I? Color-code tracks? I do that in Avid all the time. I didn't know Pr had picked it up, too. I'll have to look."

You sure can. It's awful! LOL I got a sequence from someone the other day that looked like something Mondrian had painted while on acid. The colors were not helpful, I put them all back the the defaults. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:49:27 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I edited that way for years, but I've found over the last six or so, that I really benefit from an organized audio structure. It makes for great navigation and gives me a lot more feedback about what is going on. This lack of visual organization is what I most dislike about X."

Seems we're going in opposite directions. lol And while i agree that X does need the option to better visually organize stuff, the more I use X, the less I miss it.

[Chris Harlan] "One of the great new things about audio in Pr is that I can assign that whole region to a sub and treat the sub as if it were a single track."

Mix groups/subbing/bussing would be great, I agree. Again though, if X gets Logic style Track Stacks or some sort of new invisible Compound Clip thingy, it would be really really versatile. I know they're working on it, I have no clue as to what they'll come up with or when it will appear...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:50:58 pm

[Charlie Austin] " if X gets Logic style Track Stacks or some sort of new invisible Compound Clip thingy, it would be really really versatile. I know they're working on it, I have no clue as to what they'll come up with or when it will appear..."

Sounds cool. I'd like that.


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 6:25:25 pm

Me too. I used to find it confusing because it was so different but I know where all my audio is and like the fact that I don't have video on v6 and the audio miles away down on a11 and 12.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 6:44:19 pm

[James Ewart] "Me too. I used to find it confusing because it was so different but I know where all my audio is"

I understand that you can recognize that you have audio as opposed to video but how do you recognize which clip is sync dialogue, which is dialogue out of sync, which is sync audio efx and which is non sync audio efx, which is music, and if you have your music in layers, which is your drums as opposed to your guitar? I can tell all that by glancing at my timeline, without any need to "read" any labels or index. How do you manage to do that in X?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:07:21 pm

Well I would change the clip names of this stuff in my Event Browser to "Drums" "FX" 'guitar" etc. I would try and use Smart Collections where possible also to keep them all nicely bundled together.

So I would immediately see what they were in my timeline. We can differentiate between "audio and video" and just "audio" in the timeline at a glance can we not?

And of course I would also use roles to make sure FCPX "knew" what everything was.

Sync markers we are missing. If you detach audio as opposed to expand that is potentially a bit of a faff because you have to match frame (sorry reveal in event browser ) to sort it out but I have not found that to be a problem such is the beauty of expand audio

Am I being obtuse?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 8:59:07 pm

[James Ewart] "Am I being obtuse?"

Not at all. You find reading the name of a clip on the timeline or hitting some button to show you where the various roles are satisfying for your needs. I'm much lazier, I want to know those things without reading anything, writing anything, or hitting any buttons. I want to know those things merely by looking at the timeline, and I'm willing to give up a certain amount of operational flexibility to have it that way.

I don't see this as a "right" or "wrong" issue, but rather as a preference issue. What the magnetic timeline giveth in one area it taketh away in another - and depending on your needs and style of editing the trade off is either worth it, in which case you barely recognize what is lost, or not, in which case you are somewhat blind to the benefits you are missing.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 5:14:06 am

I want to know those things without reading anything, writing anything, or hitting any buttons. I want to know those things merely by looking at the timeline,

So how ideally would you like to be able to identify stuff if not be reading what it is in timeline? Colour coding for different instruments? Or how? I'm interested to understand your requirements. I think so many of us work in a bit of a bubble these days it's really interesting to understand other peoples' workflows and needs.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 4:38:04 pm

[James Ewart] "So how ideally would you like to be able to identify stuff if not be reading what it is in timeline? Colour coding for different instruments? Or how? I'm interested to understand your requirements. I think so many of us work in a bit of a bubble these days it's really interesting to understand other peoples' workflows and needs."

For music with split out layers Drums is first (top) layer, Bass is second layer, Rhythm guitar or other percussion on three, then keyboards then solo instruments on bottom. This is customary, so when looking at the tracks I know that rhythm instruments are the top few layers, solo and lead instruments are on the bottom. I will have my track heights reduced for the first few layers because the beats are easy to make out and will keep the tracks wider for those layers I need to specifically identify. While i still might have to read a label to find the piccolo, this is a lot better than a random organization with no visual clues.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 5:12:38 pm

For want its worth its pretty straightforward to put your audio in any order you like in FCPX....some young Turks are even putting audio above video I read somewhere.
And why not?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 5:19:30 pm

And if you are using audio that is "on camera" audio or attached to video, you can put the video below and see the source of the audio in the thumbnails.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 7:02:54 pm

[James Ewart] "For want its worth its pretty straightforward to put your audio in any order you like in FCPX....some young Turks are even putting audio above video I read somewhere.
And why not?"


Will it stay there when you make cuts in it, will it stay there as you drop other audio edits into that part of the timeline?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 8:58:10 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Will it stay there when you make cuts in it, will it stay there as you drop other audio edits into that part of the timeline?"

You may need to put it in a secondary storyline (which is like a temporary track). And sometimes, the order gets goofy, but it's not a big deal if you are generally OK with FCPX.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 9:16:32 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And sometimes, the order gets goofy, but it's not a big deal if you are generally OK with FCPX."

But that's one of the points here, if you don't mind the order getting goofy then all of X's benefits make the decision easy, but if maintaining that track order is a requirement, then X is not for you. It's not a right or wrong, it's a preference issue, but it's as inaccurate to say that the magnetic timeline doesn't require trade offs as it is to say that it doesn't work at all. Neither of those statements are true, and it's up to each editor to figure out if the trade offs are worth it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 9:20:16 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Neither of those statements are true, and it's up to each editor to figure out if the trade offs are worth it."

Completely.


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 4:06:43 am

Have you downloaded it and done a test of your workflow with it?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 1:36:59 pm

[James Ewart] "Have you downloaded it and done a test of your workflow with it?"

Not yet, I plan to early next year when I will be switching out of 7. If I knew the answers I wouldn't be asking the questions.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 1:42:18 pm

Just thinking if your workflow is quite specific testing yourself might be the only way that's all.

Here in UK you get 30 days free trial...must be the same over there no?

http://www.apple.com/uk/finalcutpro/trial/


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 1:56:05 pm

[James Ewart] "Just thinking if your workflow is quite specific testing yourself might be the only way that's all. "

I don't think my workflow is particularly arcane - PBS cooking show, shot multicam 1080 - it's just that I'm an old fuss budget and like to have things a certain way.

I've cut cooking shows on 3 different NLE's so far - EMC, *edit, FCP - and it looks like a fourth one is in my near future. I'm confident I could achieve the same results on any system out there - X, PPro, Avid, Edius even Vegas - it's just that if I'm spending all that time working with a software tool I'd prefer to keep the cursing under my breath and the throwing objects at the wall to a minimum.

The only prefect editing system for me is the one I've designed in my head, and unfortunately it has a market of one and is not of much interest to financial backers.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 2:06:42 pm

"For music with split out layers Drums is first (top) layer, Bass is second layer, Rhythm guitar or other percussion on three, then keyboards then solo instruments on bottom. This is customary"

Apart from live shows where audio is mixed live I've never known anybody have to mix their music for a TV programme or film. Usually get provided with or select a mixed stereo track Done by somebody else.

Probably my misunderstanding. But certainly quite unusual sounding for me.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 2:30:23 pm

[James Ewart] "Apart from live shows where audio is mixed live I've never known anybody have to mix their music for a TV programme or film. Usually get provided with or select a mixed stereo track Done by somebody else."

Both Sonicfire Pro and Digital Juice have music libraries where you can optionally split out the various instruments and sub groups for your own mixing; it's great for the flexibility of creating an underscore where you want to mute some clashing lead instruments, it also allows for a lot of different mixes with the same theme adding variety to your bumpers.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 12:17:45 am

[James Ewart] "Am I being obtuse?
"


No. Not at all. It fits the way you like to edit, and it serves you well for what you have to do. Not all brains or projects work the same way.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 12:20:46 am

[Chris Harlan] "Not all brains or projects work the same way."

But, but... If that's true, how will we ever reach Hive-Mind Nirvana!?

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 12:26:17 am

[Charlie Austin] "[Chris Harlan] "Not all brains or projects work the same way."

But, but... If that's true, how will we ever reach Hive-Mind Nirvana!?"


Oh, man! I expected that X was all NWO! Now, here's the proof!


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 12:28:20 am

[Chris Harlan] "[Charlie Austin] "[Chris Harlan] "Not all brains or projects work the same way."

But, but... If that's true, how will we ever reach Hive-Mind Nirvana!?"

Oh, man! I expected that X was all NWO! Now, here's the proof!
"


Crap! Violated my NDA again! I must be more... careful. >:-|

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:19:13 pm

[Herb Sevush] "How do you manage to do that in X?"

i know it sounds weird, but you just do. Sync dialogue is usually married to a video clip. non sync dialogue is attached as a connected clip, and clip skimming allows you to discern what is what very easily. There is no way to slip things back in to sync, so you can match frame back to the original and replace (and very quick process and much less arduous than other NLEs due to no patching, you hit Shift-f, then option-r and you're done) or you can line up the waveforms and "see" the sync. Sure, it's not as mature as other NLEs in this regard, but it's not hard to do in FCPX. You can also, as mentioned earlier, simply "turn on" the channel that is in sync if it attached to a video clip. If it is way out of sync, it might jsut be easier to add another instance of the clip to it's in sync. It is very easy to do in FCPX, which dovetails with what we have been talking about this morning.

You can also change the timeline to view clip names as Roles. So if you have taken the time and setup Roles, this can come in very handy if you have many audio elements. Being able to assign clip Roles at the import window would really be a big help here.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 7:23:10 pm

To expand on James' & Jeremy's comment...

[Herb Sevush] "how do you recognize which clip is sync dialogue,"

That one is easy... it rides with the video and can easily be seen

[Herb Sevush] "which is dialogue out of sync"
Also easy, as you can stick cheated/non sync dialog into a CC with the video and it shows up visually just like sync dialog

Unless you disconnect all your sync audio for some reason, nothing ever goes out of sync unless you intentionally move it.

[Herb Sevush] "which is sync audio efx and which is non sync audio efx, "

Same as sync dia...

[Herb Sevush] "which is music,"

Select the Role, it's highlighted. Though as said before, auto-pinning it to the bottom would be great.

[Herb Sevush] "if you have your music in layers, which is your drums as opposed to your guitar?"

You can highlight the subroles, but it's better to just use secondary storyline for that sort of thing. If they're connected to the head of the timeline, they function just like tracks. Very easy to organize a timeline in a "classic" way if you want, Illustrations below... :-)
Organized basic timeline:



Cheated dialog in a CC in the timeline:



What's in the cheat:



-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 2, 2013 at 6:48:02 pm

[James Ewart] "After all it's only a bit of software."

exactly.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 2, 2013 at 7:06:32 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "[James Ewart] "After all it's only a bit of software."

exactly."


NO! It's the bestest most wonderfulest perfect thing ever in the history of creativity! uh... Wait! I meant to say... It's the most awful, hideous abomination ever foisted on the innocent souls of the creative community!

Nah... just software. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 2, 2013 at 4:44:34 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "You could argue that the software that desperately wanted a cold mountain mountain moment, that lobbied for it and got it - is premiere pro. Joel and Ethan Coen have stated that they are cutting their next feature on premiere. "

I would add that the Coens also were cutting on FCP BEFORE Murch cut "Cold Mountain" on it. In fact their move gave him some confidence in proceeding.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 2, 2013 at 5:28:54 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I would add that the Coens also were cutting on FCP BEFORE Murch cut "Cold Mountain" on it. In fact their move gave him some confidence in proceeding."

So, when some "respected" artist cuts their film on X, can we shut down this forum? :-D I mean, I had cut stuff on FCP "Classic" that was in theaters and on TV before the Coens used it. But I don't have an IMDB listing so I guess it doesn't count. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 2, 2013 at 5:38:30 pm

[Charlie Austin] "So, when some "respected" artist cuts their film on X, can we shut down this forum?"

No, we can just rename it to "FCP X - What were they thinking!?"

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 2, 2013 at 5:50:00 pm

[Oliver Peters] "No, we can just rename it to "FCP X - What were they thinking!?""

LOL... I think we should change it to that now!

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jamie Franklin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 5:49:15 am

[Oliver Peters] ""FCP X - What were they thinking!?""

"FC* X Or couch potato: A generation of dependents sticking goats into Taylor Swift videos"

(yes I'm still a "hater", I'll come back after the update :P)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 2, 2013 at 5:43:40 pm

[Charlie Austin] " But I don't have an IMDB listing so I guess it doesn't count. ;-)"

This is directly proportional to the quantity of Merlot consumed.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 3, 2013 at 11:18:09 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I would add that the Coens also were cutting on FCP BEFORE Murch cut "Cold Mountain" on it. In fact their move gave him some confidence in proceeding.
"


yep indeed - and also - after looking it up - Roger Avery with "The Rules of Attraction" in 2003 is cited as an inflection point too.

it lives on too, he said poking at wikipedia - John Carter mightn't have been the greatest - but it was cut on an FCP timeline.

You'd be curious what the next fincher feature will be cut on. What those dudes Kirk Baxter and Angus Wall feel comfortable with say? - a tremendous amount of PPRo development seems to be hiving towards FCP behaviour lately - the blade tool is now specifically identical with the .1 release, matching FCP7 track patching, join edits, and god knows how much other stuff. the ppro team have nearly completely jettisoned the track patching logic which, to my limited understanding, was a partial match to an avid environment.

Its much more now an FCP live environment where the objects on the timeline and the selection of them and their track is the major decision. It'll be interesting to see whether adobe can hoover up a serious quantity of editors by simply providing a formidably advanced FCP style environment. If everyone bleeds away to FCPX and avid in either direction then they are on a hiding to nothing. the legend wasn't that great.

alternatively, if it becomes apparent that the software that held roughly 46% of the american editing market a few years ago was an intellectual sweet spot, and is effectively alive in Premiere Pro 7, is cross platform, being developed by a company that can only make money by selling it, and is being adopted by cutting edge top flight Hollywood Film Makers and Editors, well then you might think Premiere has a deservedly bright future.

Until that is, that 100 million dollar FCPX feature arrives and blows everything up. Larry Jordan is preparing a post, talk, and training series on that one I hear.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 4:13:15 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Its much more now an FCP live environment where the objects on the timeline and the selection of them and their track is the major decision. It'll be interesting to see whether adobe can hoover up a serious quantity of editors by simply providing a formidably advanced FCP style environment. If everyone bleeds away to FCPX and avid in either direction then they are on a hiding to nothing. the legend wasn't that great.
"


There really is quite a bit of Avid in it. And some actual Premiere, too. From my perspective, the audio is monstrously good. Not only do you have both clip and track mixers, but the track mixers have sends to subs, as well. I just did a sizzle with all kinds sfx, dia, vo and mu dancing together, and it was a lovely experience.


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 3, 2013 at 6:58:51 am

Actually I think it's a very valid comparison. Of course different software but the reaction to FCP 1 back in 1999 or so, was very similar to the reaction from the "professional community" (by which I mean the facilities houses in the main) to FCPX.

No not just similar. IDENTICAL.

But our friends in the states were more receptive to something "new" and "different" (as they always are) and slowly but surely... well you know the rest.

So if we can go from FCP 1.2 which nobody liked to FCP 7 which even The Mill use as their principal "editing" tool who is to say where we will be four years from now or less.

I certainly wouldn't bet against it. Would you?

http://www.jamesewart.co.uk


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 3, 2013 at 7:34:28 pm

[James Ewart] "No not just similar. IDENTICAL."

ho ho - welll - ok. I was kind of around for that tho you know - I first cut on it at ver. 1.2.5 and convinced my then employer to bring it in as our editing system at ver3 on a blue and white G3 running an ice board for after effects with a 5gig lacie scsi drive - to this day that is the most treasured computer I've ever cut on. the whole thing was a dream and I fell in love with FCP instantly. As I seem to recall a lot of our type of people were very keen on FCP - the difference now, if there is any, is that the major debate is taking place within the very FCP community that grew up out of that era.

given the dynamic over a decade ago was quite different, its maybe a little hard to see things as being quite identical, mmm?

Still - As you say - its really only software in the end.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 4, 2013 at 3:20:00 am

Yup 1.2.5 was the first PAL version that actually worked. Before that it was was super buggy. I had a miserable time thinking it was my fault. And that first PAL version (1.2.1) was responsible for a lot of people turning their backs on the software and not giving it a second chance (sound familiar?), by the time version 1.2.5 arrived most if the bugs were fixed but it got off to a bad start. (For quite a while I recall, things like colour bars and slug were still NTSC)

Avid was pretty much the only editing tool at the time (Media 100?) so I suppose there were quite a few of us who saw an AFFORDABLE opportunity if it worked. Premiere was not fit at the time.

I know a fair smattering of Avid MC and Symphony editors who still do not consider FCP7 to be a professional tool. Let alone X!

Certainly if it were not for forums like this, living in the UK, I would be under the impression that FCPX was not even worth installing such is the bad rap it got/continues to get.

I actually think a lot of the Avid-based facilities have seen the somewhat botched release of X as an opportunity to try and kill it off.

I'm sure Adobe were/are hoping that Apple would leave the professional market and that X would fail. In their position I guess so would I.

It just feels to me like there is a lot of "wanting" X to fail to the extent that they are not really looking too hard at it. It's very dismissive. And of course nobody wants to be seen to have been "wrong" do they?

The only people who are not slagging it off are the people who are quietly getting on using it.

There's a new feature length doc on Muhammad Ali being cut with X as we speak by the way. A few Mac Pros with X wheedling their way into the BBC. Once you start using it all the time and thinking like it thinks, you realise it's too clever to expire. For me the experience gets better and better.

So... would you bet against Apple?

http://www.jamesewart.co.uk


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Mark Dobson
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 1, 2013 at 6:47:37 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Will they have MacPros with FCPX? Most likely."

I think that the few editors who have publicised their use of FCPX within the BBC will be seen as trail blazers.

I'm thinking of Nick Watson who edited 'The Man Who Shot Beautiful Women' on FCPX and Craig Slattery, who regularly contributes to this forum, who has edited numerous editions of the BBC1 'The Culture Show' using FCPX.

With the new Mac Pro being launched next month together with an updated FCPX I'm sure many other producers will take advantage of this software which, even sceptics would acknowledge, has finally shaken off it's initial bad publicity, to be regarded as one of the leading NLEs.


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 3, 2013 at 6:30:19 am

All those tedious system settings and user preferences in FCP7.

Having to reset scratch disks for ever project. So dull. Do some people actually enjoy all that bollocks?

Does that make me a "Prosumer"? If so I'm fine with that.





http://www.jamesewart.co.uk


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Tom Durham
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 9:54:02 pm

Interesting discussions! I learned to edit tape-to-tape. First NLE was Premiere 4. Became a professional Avid editor. Loved it. Switched to FCP editing TV and movies because of price. Now my studio switched from FCP7 to Premiere after not being thrilled with FCPX. Full circle back to Adobe. Love what Adobe is doing--aggressively listening and improving things. My big beef with Apple was that they took a big turn NOT listening for long while. But if they're back... it will be great to have multiple tools competing to be the best.





================================================
YOU can help save TimeSpace. Join the Chronos Protectorate!

http://www.95ers.com
http://www.SpaceAceMedia.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 10:13:52 pm

[Tom Durham] "My big beef with Apple was that they took a big turn NOT listening for long while. "

I realize that many here don't believe this, but they have been, and are listening. They created an entirely new NLE. They launched it... badly. And they're continually implementing road mapped (probably), and user requested, features. Now maybe they should shout about it more, but as someone who has tried to reach out to the X folks in a constructive (and probably annoying) way I can assure you that they do listen. And for those who use X, sending feedback makes a difference as well.

Just because they're not actively participating in forums like this, doesn't mean they're not lurking. Silently. Plotting to kill everyo... uh... never mind...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Tom Durham
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 10:39:50 pm

I hear ya and it sounds like they are doing a great job these days. The proof is in the pudding and people seem to be loving X and my studio's all-CC workflow will run on a bunch of new Mac Pros.

But the disenchantment with Apple really was more than just a bad X launch. From my point of view, it was years of not paying attention... not updating Mac Pros in any serious way, not significantly updating Final Cut Studio for a long time... tantalizing us with Color and then dumping it... and then in the end... SURPRISE... dumping FCP7 for X. Maybe that wasn't all a mistake on Apple's part from a business point of view. But for me and a lot of people I work with, they lost my confidence as a professional and I left before they could win it back.

But again, I love what they're doing now. Anything that helps people produce better art faster and more economically has my vote.





================================================
YOU can help save TimeSpace. Join the Chronos Protectorate!

http://www.95ers.com
http://www.SpaceAceMedia.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 5, 2013 at 10:47:31 pm

[Tom Durham] "From my point of view, it was years of not paying attention... not updating Mac Pros in any serious way, not significantly updating Final Cut Studio for a long time... tantalizing us with Color and then dumping it..."

Yeah, I hear ya, totally understandable. I guess since FCP was working for me, even after it was dead, I never really got to that point. I think what they're doing now is pretty cool, though it's gonna be impossible to make everyone happy at this point. It's good that there are choices now... keeps everyone on their toes. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Will Eccleston
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 7:26:17 pm

I have never used X, but so far, no one has said the kinds of things I want to hear to make me think it's worth investing my very limited time in. That may change. I HAVE spent thousands of hours sitting in front of Media Composer and Final Cut legacy, and honing my workflow to razor-sharp perfection in both. And if you had told me a few years ago that I would be loving Premiere, I would've said "You're an idiot".

All that to say that Adobe is absolutely killing it with what they are doing with Premiere right now. It is fast becoming the editor I always dreamed of. A fantastic amalgamation of everything I always missed about AVID, everything I loved about Final Cut, and everything that was already cool about Premiere. All of that combined with excellent hardware acceleration and totally mindless multiformat support. I know there's a lot on the line for them right now, but they are blowing me away with their attention to the editing community. That is something that I've never been impressed with from Apple, and as for AVID, well, I won't even comment. I still have to use AVID and even sometimes FCP 7, depending upon where I'm working and the nature of the program, but as far as I'm concerned, Premiere Pro is the wave of the present and near-future.

Will Eccleston
Kinetiscape Films


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 7:30:12 pm

Why not download the free FCPX trial first and then ask some questions?

Posting from a position of total ignorance seems to be a waste of your time and everybody else's

just sayin'


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 7:42:17 pm

[James Ewart] "Posting from a position of total ignorance seems to be a waste of your time and everybody else's"

I may be vain, but I'd like to think my ignorance is not total.

I was waiting for the demo of the new Mac Pro before I would consider staying with OSX, so trying out FCPX would have been premature.

For me anything less than a full month's immersion with an NLE is not a fair way to test it, and I won't have that time open till next spring, but until then I will continue to post my ignorant questions if it's all right with you.

Just sayin'

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 7:48:48 pm

So you have not even downloaded the free trial then?

Just substitute the amount of time you have spent reading and writing posts here for playing with the software before asking the questions.

Surely one month of testing will be a valuable experience - I may be mistaken but I think FCP 7 users get an extra month.

No brainer?


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Charlie Austin
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 7:51:20 pm

[James Ewart] "So you have not even downloaded the free trial then?

Just substitute the amount of time you have spent reading and writing posts here for playing with the software before asking the questions.

Surely one month of testing will be a valuable experience - I may be mistaken but I think FCP 7 users get an extra month.

No brainer?
"


If I may be so bold... I think being pushy is unhelpful. Just my 2 cents... ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 8:03:23 pm

[James Ewart] "Just substitute the amount of time you have spent reading and writing posts here for playing with the software before asking the questions."

In my total ignorance I have figured out, over time, the best way for me to proceed and I've found that off-hour diddling with complex software tends to get me very annoyed and frustrated with it, so not only is it not a no brainier to download a trial now, it's a non starter.

Besides which I rather enjoy my time annoying people here with my postings and will continue to do so, with your permission (or without it.)

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 8:37:20 pm

You surely have a greater mind than mine for sure (not difficult) but when a free trial is at your disposal why not give it a whirl?

You are not annoying anybody...I think this community is about helping one another.

You are posting just to annoy?

Wow are you that bored?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 8:56:28 pm

[James Ewart] " when a free trial is at your disposal why not give it a whirl?"

As I tried to explain, I believe I only get one free trial, and if I get it now when I don't have the time to really give it a full test then I won't be able to get it in March when I will have the time. I work on a yearly schedule that runs from May to May, and even if I determined that X was perfect for my needs I still wouldn't be able to implement it into a workflow that is almost half way through 26 half hour episodes. Patience is a virtue.

An old joke goes this way - A young bull and an old bull are standing on a hill, overlooking a valley full of cattle when the young bull says "hey, why don't we run down the hill and f*ck us a cow" to which the old bull says "son, why don't we walk down the hill and f*ck them all."

[James Ewart] "You are posting just to annoy? Wow are you that bored?"

Apparently you don't get my humor, but no I'm not that bored.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 8:00:45 pm

[Herb Sevush] "until then I will continue to post my ignorant questions if it's all right with you"

As ever, your "ignorant questions" are far more incisive and enlightening than a host of other contributions.

Just sayin', as it were.

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 8:29:29 pm

As ever, your "ignorant questions" are far more incisive and enlightening than a host of other "contributions.

Just sayin', as it were."

How so ?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 8:41:06 pm

[James Ewart] "As ever, your "ignorant questions" are far more incisive and enlightening than a host of other "contributions.

Just sayin', as it were."

How so ?"


Herb's discussions of his workflows have invariably been immensely illuminating to me. An experienced and respected editor in whatever field as always worth listening to.

At least for as long as they're still around for us to gain from their wisdom.

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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James Ewart
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 8:44:07 pm

If you're going to ask questions about software which is available for free on trial for 30 or 60 days why not download it and try it?

THEN ask questions.

just sayin'


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 8:44:50 pm







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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 8:40:09 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "your "ignorant questions" are far more incisive and enlightening than a host of other contributions."

To fess up, that was a paid advertisement.

As an OT matter of interest, as one of the original X skeptics and then later a template creator for X, where is your workflow at now Simon - FCPX full time, NLE bigamist or what?

Just askin'

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 8:52:43 pm

[Herb Sevush] "As an OT matter of interest, as one of the original X skeptics and then later a template creator for X, where is your workflow at now Simon - FCPX full time, NLE bigamist or what?"

For me, FCP7 is still unbeatable and the NLE I spend most of my time working in - there are just too many deep advantages for me to forsake it just yet. Oliver Peters wrote a tremendously good piece about this recently.

But thanks to the gently reasoned advocacy (how rare is that?) of editors like Charlie Austin I've recently migrated a few serious projects to X and have really enjoyed the cutting process.

What I haven't enjoyed are the attendant workflow headaches which subsequently made me regret the decision.

The inability to relink to source material of a different length is a massive hindrance to our typical workflow. Add to that the lack of ganging, traditional replace editing, adequate timecode displays, etc. and it all becomes a serious production number pretty quickly.

I fully accept that our workflows are not typical and have no intrinsic right to be catered for by any NLE manufacturer, but I do have to deliver results to my clients, if you see what I mean.

Premiere is a non-starter for all its attractions because no-one in our industry uses it and it holds no advantages over Legacy for the work that we do. Meanwhile Media Composer remains a stolid, dull and slow workhorse that I inevitably revert to more often than I'd like for creative editing purposes.

The big problem with finding a replacement, is that Legacy was just too darn good.

And it wasn't that good.

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 9:08:55 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "For me, FCP7 is still unbeatable and the NLE I spend most of my time working in - there are just too many deep advantages for me to forsake it just yet. Oliver Peters wrote a tremendously good piece about this recently."

Yes, good article, the lack of batch export, timecode displays and the lack of media trimming would be a PITA for me. Not a deal breaker but a PITA none the less.

[Simon Ubsdell] "The big problem with finding a replacement, is that Legacy was just too darn good.
And it wasn't that good."


Great line, I shall use it with glee, but without attribution.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Shawn Miller
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 6, 2013 at 7:34:34 pm

[Will Eccleston] "All that to say that Adobe is absolutely killing it with what they are doing with Premiere right now. It is fast becoming the editor I always dreamed of."

Funny, I've been hearing similar things from Avid editors lately. Can you tell me what you're finding most compelling about Premiere? I always saw Avid as my escape route from Adobe if I needed one, what would I be missing if I did go that way?

Shawn



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Will Eccleston
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 7, 2013 at 1:18:30 am

Shawn,

I work on a wide variety of project types - long-form TV shows, network promos, agency spots, and some very slick corporate B to B video, and for some of the television stuff, AVID is more or less fine, especially with facility support behind it. But for the heavily graphics-intensive corporate work that I do, using the AVID feels like having one hand. I find using effects in the AVID to be a very backward and tedious process, and keyframing is an amazing exercise in frustration. (And AVID was the first editor I learned, and ran for YEARS before starting to get into FCP in version 2) Adobe is just, in my opinion, a more modern interface, with much better graphics capability, and MUCH more attention to moving the product forward in a way that makes sense. Every time AVID releases a new feature it sounds great on paper but, to me at least, feels like it was conceived by engineers (NFG). Also being able to copy and paste right from Premiere timeline to an AE comp is pretty huge for me. And then a billion little things about how the timeline operates in Premiere, many of which just made it into the software in the last few weeks. And oh, (and I know the bar has never been high) Premiere has the best titler I've EVER seen in an editor, by a HUGE margin. I just used multicam the other day for the first time, and it's fantastic (granted - I only had a 2-camera shoot, and they were the same codec, but the functionality was great).

I can't stress enough though that a huge part of it is Adobe's amazing responsiveness lately, which is in stark contrast to AVID over the years, but, as stated previously, there's a lot on the line for Adobe right now. We'll have to see if they continue responding this way going forward.

I'm probably forgetting some stuff here, but hopefully that helps.

EDIT!! Oh yeah!!!! AND THIS ONE IS HUUUUUGE FOR ME!

AVID still crushes every piece of media into whatever format project you're working in, which is simply paleozoic. Every other editor is resolution-independent. It's really a killer for me. Add to that the incredible multiformat capability of Premiere. Yes, I know, there are performance advantages to transcoding everything, but it's truly getting good enough that it's really not worth it anymore. Just plug in your camera drive and start editing. I have heard that AVID AMA may be getting better, but it was still miserable when I used it a few months ago.

Will Eccleston
Kinetiscape Films


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Will Eccleston
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 7, 2013 at 1:34:22 am

Simon said "Premiere is a non-starter for all its attractions because no-one in our industry uses it and it holds no advantages over Legacy for the work that we do."

I would contend that it is everything you love about Legacy plus everything it was sorely lacking. But I can't help you if no one in your market knows how to run it. You could be a pioneer though : )

Will Eccleston
Kinetiscape Films


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 7, 2013 at 1:54:51 am

[Will Eccleston] "Simon said "Premiere is a non-starter for all its attractions because no-one in our industry uses it and it holds no advantages over Legacy for the work that we do."

I would contend that it is everything you love about Legacy plus everything it was sorely lacking. But I can't help you if no one in your market knows how to run it. You could be a pioneer though : )"


For better or for worse, the film industries in the territories with which we do business, from the US, to the UK to Europe, are all still exclusively working in either AVID or FCP7 - the latter far more frequently than you'd expect.

Premiere has no penetration whatsoever among our clients. (Neither has FCP X) for that matter.)

We don't really get to choose which NLE to use since it is more or less dictated by what we are given.

Sometimes these days I'll start a project in FCP X, knowing how much fun it is to cut in, but also knowing how many headaches I'll have at the finishing stage.

I know and use Premiere quite a bit but to me there's nothing attractive about using it just for the sake of it.

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 7, 2013 at 2:58:35 am

Thanks Will,

I really appreciate your insight! I've thought about learning Avid for some time now, mostly for long form stuff. But I've been hearing long time Avid editors express such dissatisfaction with Media Composer that I'm now looking a lot more at Lightworks. I'm a long time PPro user, and I really like it for short form stuff (corporate, short films, etc)... but I like to keep my options open. :-)

Shawn



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Will Eccleston
Re: Creative Cloud
on Nov 7, 2013 at 2:33:44 pm

That's what I thought you meant at first, but then I second guessed myself and thought, "no, he means he's hearing folks singing the praises of AVID like I'm spewing about Premiere". Thanks for the clarification. I think there were (and still are) a TON of AVID folks who always thought Final Cut was a piece of ship. I certainly hated it when I first started using it. But then I grew to love it, although there were a few things I always missed about the AVID. I am quite certain there are a billion AVID users who will for a long time, if not forever, think that Premiere is a piece as well. What can you do? I do realize that if I'm going to keep spraying about it I need to spend some time playing with X, but that's tough to envision doing. I'd rather spend my time trying something new with AE or learning C4D.

Will Eccleston
Kinetiscape Films


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