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New FCPX confirmed for December

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Mark Dobson
New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 6:58:21 pm

This is from the updated Mac Pro information on the Apple website for those that have not seen it.

Final Cut Pro X. Now optimized for Mac Pro.
The new version of Final Cut Pro X (coming in December) has been engineered to take advantage of the 4K capabilities of the Mac Pro. The dual workstation-class GPUs in Mac Pro accelerate effects, optical flow analysis, video export — and virtually everything else you do in Final Cut Pro. Ultrafast PCIe-based flash storage means fast project loading and multi-stream 4K playback. And Final Cut Pro X has been so perfectly tuned to take advantage of the new Mac Pro, you can work in 4K — in real time — without rendering. (Take a minute to let that slowly sink in.)


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Nick Toth
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 7:30:12 pm

It's about time I'm able to do my home movies in 4K...

anickt


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Craig Seeman
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 7:46:06 pm

Given the lack of upgrade price, consider the implications for FCPX sales between now and December. Of course not everyone will know this.... I can't help they'll be a surprise in FCPX pricing one way or another.



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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 7:48:11 pm

[Mark Dobson] "Final Cut Pro X has been so perfectly tuned to take advantage of the new Mac Pro, you can work in 4K — in real time — without rendering. (Take a minute to let that slowly sink in.)"

I work on half hour cooking shows broadcast on PBS. I'm as interested in working in 4K as I was in 3D. Take a moment for that to sink in.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Keith Koby
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 8:30:58 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I work on half hour cooking shows broadcast on PBS. I'm as interested in working in 4K as I was in 3D. Take a moment for that to sink in."

Really? If I ever had any respect for the content you post here, it is completely gone now... Sad.

I've got plenty of friends here in NYC that _do_ work on cooking shows that are completely interested in any technology that is powerful enough to work and render realtime in 4k.

The breakthroughs happening for processing power at price point should be of interest to any post professional despite personal reservations about the software or platform.


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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 9:27:32 pm

[Keith Koby] "Really? If I ever had any respect for the content you post here, it is completely gone now... Sad."

Sorry to let you down, but for normal broadcast the overhead of 4K in terms of storage, cost, and system speed is not viable for any production I know of.

It's great for spots, it's great for short form high-end corporate, it's fine for features, but why on earth would any broadcast show go there? Who is accepting 4K delivery? Who is broadcasting 4K delivery? What percentage of the TV audience will be able to view 4K for the next 5 years (my guess is you'll be in single digits.)

It's nice to be able to pan and zoom on a 4K image, but how about shooting it properly in the first place? And once you pan and zoom then you're eliminating the possibility of ever broadcasting it 4K.

So go ahead, explain to me why I should give a damm if my editing system can handle 4K multicam any more than I care if it can handle 3D.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Keith Koby
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 9:58:17 pm

[Herb Sevush] "So go ahead, explain to me why I should give a damm if my editing system can handle 4K multicam any more than I care if it can handle 3D."

I don't believe I can explain to you why you should give a damn. Reread my first post for reasoning of why other media professionals care about processing power at price point and maybe it will sink in. 4k sources are way more common today than I suppose you care to admit.


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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 10:21:21 pm

[Keith Koby] "Reread my first post for reasoning of why other media professionals care about processing power at price point and maybe it will sink in. "

OK, I think we have a bit of a communications gap here.

I wasn't downplaying the processing power needed to work with 4K, I'm all in for that. I was downplaying the marketing hype of 4K, whether from Apple or at Best Buy.

I'd rather hear about how fast the Tube can render HD .264 files, or examples of handling complex timeline effects without rendering, or hear about 16 camera multicam in HD uncompressed. I'm aware that 4K assets will get more common as time passes, I might be shooting some 4K for title sequences and promos this year, but I don't think talking about 3 camera 4K multicam means anything to anybody working in broadcast. Pitching the entire Tube marketing campaign around 4K is rather silly IMHO.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Dan Stewart
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 11:39:57 pm

I agree. 256Gg flash? That's just a boot drive. I was hoping for a fat 2Tb for a 16bit HD conform timeline for SMAC finishing. Feels like you're going to have to add a fast local thunderbolt raid if you want to make this thing work well.



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Mitch Ives
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 2:11:10 am

Herb, your point wasn't lost on everybody... I got it.

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Dan Stewart
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 11:36:26 am

I didn't miss Herb's point, I was agreeing in my after-the-pub way. 4k can wait a few years - but enough of that super fast internal storage to hold an hour or two RAW timeline would make it interesting to me..



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Mitch Ives
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 3:25:05 pm

[Dan Stewart] "I didn't miss Herb's point, I was agreeing in my after-the-pub way. 4k can wait a few years - but enough of that super fast internal storage to hold an hour or two RAW timeline would make it interesting to me.."

I get the "pub" thing. Was there myself yesterday. With regard to a fast machine and lots of fast storage, I think we'd all like that. Even when NOT working in 4K. The question is, "is it a good use of resources"? Here in the "colonies" the economy has had a downward effect on rates, so buying things one wants rather than needs won't keep you around long.

I'm going to watch 4K with some interest. My clients won't be asking for it, but there are markets that can use it. The question is, how big is that slice of the pie? It seems to me that more and more it's the manufacturers pushing each new technology, rather than actual demand.

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 3:40:51 pm

[Mitch Ives] "more and more it's the manufacturers pushing each new technology, rather than actual demand."

Which gave us quadrophonic sound in the 70's, 3D, and now 4K. The difference being there is actual technological improvement with shooting in 4K and many applications where it is both useful and cost effective. However I don't see 4K as a viable distribution or viewing medium for many many years. At the consumer level it is all pure hype - witness the idea of 4K on a smart phone. On the pro production side 4k cameras are cost effective today, but until storage and i/o speed costs drop down to where HD currently is for post I don't see myself cutting with it. Over sampling is always nice, but nobody wants to pay for it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 10:29:41 pm

[Keith Koby] "I don't believe I can explain to you why you should give a damn. [tough for you there keith no doubt], Reread my first post for reasoning of why other media professionals care about processing power at price point and maybe it will sink in. [oh If only we could see the world as you do kolby] 4k sources are way more common today than I suppose you care to admit." [my god you're right - suvesh is refusing to admit a truth he knows deep within]

I mean, I guess there's nothing wrong, per se, with making noises like a tea party activist on behalf of those currently executing professional work through FCPX. You'd have to think FCPX has quite a few moderates these days though.

herb just told you he doesn't see a reason to give a gigantic sod about 3D or 4K -
neither do I really - and I actually just cut together a pile of super-slomo Red 3D shot on wimbledon centre court. (I really just threw that in to name drop if I'm honest.)

the UK has largely dumped 3D for broadcast and most people are on DSL for delivery. no one should realistically give a damn about 4K, given that pipe, for quite some time.

what part of all this has you driven insane?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Keith Koby
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 11:43:51 pm

Thank you for weighing in, Mr. Impartiality.


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Chris Harlan
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 12:39:26 am

Badger up your butt?


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Mitch Ives
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 2:15:25 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I mean, I guess there's nothing wrong, per se, with making noises like a tea party activist on behalf of those currently executing professional work through FCPX. You'd have to think FCPX has quite a few moderates these days though."

As a Brit, I can see why the whole "Tea Party Activist" thing has you a bit anxiety ridden. For the rest of us members of the colonies, that's a term of endearment...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 9:23:08 pm

god no. Irish there bud. no perfidious albion for me. Tá na sasanaigh alright, ach ní bheidh mé ag déanamh curtsy os comhair an banríon inniú nó amárach.

aside from that -

Funny! I thought well over 70% of americans had an extremely poor view of the tea party - radical extremists demanding a purity of view and hostile to compromise. Not that that goes for anyone in the FCPX crowd you understand - like say compromising on the fact that 4K is a boondoggle dreamt up by hardware manufacturers with a very dubious logic attached.

like phillip hodgetts pretty clearly lays out:



http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 9:42:34 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "like say compromising on the fact that 4K is a boondoggle dreamt up by hardware manufacturers with a very dubious logic attached."

People said the same about HD

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 10:10:33 pm

hodgetts makes a pretty good case - particularly given the kind of low grade spec of 4.2.0 8 bit being applied.

also H265 optimisation can't nearly compensate for the fact that its an effective bandwidth quadrupling from 1080 - the forecast is 3-4% of US households accessing 4K by 2018. I mean come on.

nevermind that you need to be unrealistically close to a large monitor to realistically resolve the difference. there's also the studies out there that 720p looks perceptually better than 1080p in most delivery use cases due to being afforded a better compression - that 8 bit banding and block compression error is only going to get worse if they start trying to wedge heavily compressed 4K source down the same line.

who doesn't think that them sticking with 256 levels of grey per channel at this point is a bit of a joke. they're not looking to improve the fundamental picture quality - they're looking to gin up a domestic screen and producer hardware refresh cycle? 1080P is pretty robust picture quality - we're all sitting on it - and apparently a lot of the panel manufacturers in asia are gnawing their shins - so says hodgetts.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 24, 2013 at 2:31:09 pm

[Steve Connor] "People said the same about HD"

And they said they same about 3D. So I guess sometimes people are right and sometimes people are wrong. My suggestion is to argue the merits and not worry so much about what "people" say.

In this case I believe the argument is clear - while oversampling is a bonus in production, it's cost in terms of storage and new equipment can outweigh it's benefits, especially in long form work.

4K as a native viewer or distribution medium is at least 5 years away from making any sort of appreciable inroad and is highly questionable in terms of it's benefits in normal viewer situations.

Hodgett's argument that a saner use of any extended future bandwidth increases would be in larger bit depth is totally on the mark, both in terms of post production and the home viewing experience.

In other words, before we go to 4k, how about going to HD 12 bit 444 for production and 10 bit for distribution, where a viewer could actually see the difference on any size screen.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 24, 2013 at 2:59:05 pm

[Herb Sevush] "And they said they same about 3D. So I guess sometimes people are right and sometimes people are wrong. My suggestion is to argue the merits and not worry so much about what "people" say.
"


3D was never going to work in Broadcast.


[Herb Sevush] "4K as a native viewer or distribution medium is at least 5 years away from making any sort of appreciable inroad and is highly questionable in terms of it's benefits in normal viewer situations."

This is true, I would say more than 5 years, benefits are really visible in screens over 55in, but how many people have those?


[Herb Sevush] "In other words, before we go to 4k, how about going to HD 12 bit 444 for production and 10 bit for distribution, where a viewer could actually see the difference on any size screen."

Nice thought, never going to happen.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 24, 2013 at 3:27:34 pm

[Steve Connor] "3D was never going to work in Broadcast."

While you and I might agree on that subject, if you go back 3 years or so on these forums you would find many many well informed folks who thought otherwise. Tim Wilson for one. Those folk were the "people" in that case.

I don't think 4K is an exact replication of that phenomenon because 4K has some absolute benefits in production; over sampling almost always does. I see places where I might selectively use it next year, the way I used to shoot title elements in 35mm for 16mm productions 40 years ago because the oversampling negated the generation loss in creating titles. But just like back then, I don't see many long form shows that will accept the budget increases to over sample an entire production.

[Steve Connor] "Nice thought, never going to happen."

The story of my life.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 24, 2013 at 3:54:36 pm

[Herb Sevush] "In other words, before we go to 4k, how about going to HD 12 bit 444 for production and 10 bit for distribution, where a viewer could actually see the difference on any size screen."

I whole heartedly agree.

But it would be an even harder sell.


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Robert Sala
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 25, 2013 at 5:02:12 am

10 bit in distribution is an overkill. Very few people if any can see the difference between 10 bit and 8 bit with 14 bit LUT. The tests to break up 8bit with banding are purpose made with this one goal in mind. Might as well watch tests to break up ProRes or DCI or H264/5. 10 bit at data manipulation level-yes.


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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 24, 2013 at 2:34:38 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] " the fact that 4K is a boondoggle dreamt up by hardware manufacturers with a very dubious logic attached."

Thanks for the link, Phil nailed it perfectly.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Mitch Ives
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 24, 2013 at 3:11:14 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "god no. Irish there bud. "

That was tongue in cheek... I know you're Irish. One half my family came from Ireland. The Brit's still consider us the colonies. A British friend of mine celebrates July 3rd as "last day of British rule".


[Aindreas Gallagher] "Funny! I thought well over 70% of americans had an extremely poor view of the tea party - radical extremists demanding a purity of view and hostile to compromise."

In this country we have a phrase... "there's lies... damn lies... and statistics". Don't believe what you read from the non-existent media in this country...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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TImothy Auld
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 11:14:29 pm

I worked on something this year that was shot with the RED Epic. It hit theatrical screens at 1080.

Tim


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 9:36:03 pm

[Keith Koby] "Really? If I ever had any respect for the content you post here, it is completely gone now... Sad."

oh for the love of god.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 12:36:26 am

[Keith Koby] "[Herb Sevush] "I work on half hour cooking shows broadcast on PBS. I'm as interested in working in 4K as I was in 3D. Take a moment for that to sink in."

Really? If I ever had any respect for the content you post here, it is completely gone now... Sad.
"


No. This comment is sad.


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Bret Williams
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 8:25:31 pm

It's on the Final Cut Pro page too. At the bottom where they seem to put all the important announcements about FCP X in the past. It's horrible english, but it's there...

"The new Mac Pro is coming in December. And so is a new version of Final Cut Pro X.
With support for dual GPUs and 4K broadcast monitoring, Final Cut Pro will be optimized to take advantage of the incredible power built into the new Mac Pro."

So it's not called Final Cut Pro 11.


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David Mathis
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 8:36:15 pm

While we wait for the new "X" to be released:

http://www.colorgradingcentral.com/lututility


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Darren Roark
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 9:09:15 pm

[David Mathis] "While we wait for the new "X" to be released:

http://www.colorgradingcentral.com/lututility"


Just bought that, it's so helpful and much cheaper than the alternative.


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Keith Koby
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 9:17:41 pm

That is pretty nice. And that guy knows how to party.


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David Mathis
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 9:27:57 pm

The price is perfect. Being able to create look in Resolve and save it as a LUT is the best part.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 22, 2013 at 11:27:13 pm

Is it just me or is the Slog2 LUT completely weird?


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Oliver Peters
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 2:13:49 am

Somebody in another thread posted the UI for the new iMovie as a clue to what FCP X 10.1 might look like. Well, actually I think this is it. Posted by Wired. Note the UI here on a Sharp 4K monitor and the clip edges are no longer rounded. Just a guess, of course.



- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andy Neil
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 2:26:46 am

If that's it, it doesn't look that much different. Aside from tweaking the colors and clip representations, it looks pretty close to the same.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 2:29:43 am

Nice one, Oliver.

That certainly does look like fcpx.


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Mark Raudonis
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 2:53:25 am

RE: 4K

There are some surprising uses for 4K that you may not have considered. Even in reality TV!

Example: Let's say you have an interview with TWO people on camera. One 4K camera can give you THREE camera angles: WS, CU left, CU RT. With a loosely framed "two shot" you simply "punch in" on the CU as needed. 4K can support a 300 per cent blow up for a CU and still have the same resolution as HD. In other words, you can get three camera coverage out of a single media file. That's pretty efficient.

We're already doing this.

4K... consider the possibilities!

mark



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 2:59:00 am

That's exactly my use for 4k as well.

One camera, multiple hi resolution crops.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 3:06:42 am

Mark,

All the reality shows I've worked on cut in SD for storage reasons. How do you fold the 4K into your offline/online workflow?




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Chris Harlan
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 3:11:32 am

Back in the SD world, I used to do that all the time with HD.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 3:46:56 am

[Chris Harlan] "Back in the SD world, I used to do that all the time with HD."

On shows with thousands of hours of footage there aren't many other options.

Seems the online/offline workflow just won't die. Once tech gets fast enough and cheap enough to handle a current format something bigger comes down the line and makes all our gear look old and slow again. lol




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Walter Soyka
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 4:02:22 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Seems the online/offline workflow just won't die. Once tech gets fast enough and cheap enough to handle a current format something bigger comes down the line and makes all our gear look old and slow again. lol"

Soyka's Law: Expectations rise at the same rate as capabilities.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 4:09:49 am

[Walter Soyka] "[Andrew Kimery] "Seems the online/offline workflow just won't die. Once tech gets fast enough and cheap enough to handle a current format something bigger comes down the line and makes all our gear look old and slow again. lol"

Soyka's Law: Expectations rise at the same rate as capabilities."


Garchow's Law: Through confusion, flows profit.


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Walter Soyka
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 4:33:04 am

My favorite Despair poster:

[image]

Consulting: If you're not a part of the solution, there's good money to be made in prolonging the problem.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 8:00:56 am

I absolutely LOVE that.


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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 3:55:53 am

[Mark Raudonis] "In other words, you can get three camera coverage out of a single media file. That's pretty efficient."

I've done that sort of stuff for the web, shooting HD. Generally the kind of multicam coverage I shoot would not work this way, I'd rather spend my money on 2 xtra Go Pros and get the angles that I need. I do appreciate the xtra bandwidth of 4K and all that it implies, but I think 4K is way premature for my clients. By the time I'm ready for 4K I'm sure 8K will already be happening.

As addendum, years ago I made the decision to go all in on DVCPRO HD right after Panasonic unveiled it at NAB. I Convinced the producers I worked with to go HD on a new PBS cooking series. We shot the series with all the attendant problems of working on the cutting edge but it all turned out well and the show was well received. However I didn't get a call for another HD show for 4 years. The series, Daisy Cooks!, shows up in NYC all the time but never in HD, always in the SD letterboxed version. If I want to see it on HD I play it in my studio. I will never be the first kid on the block again with any new format.

Nowadays I wait until my clients force me to change, much to the relief of my accountant.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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tony west
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 5:43:18 am

[Herb Sevush] "Nowadays I wait until my clients force me to change, much to the relief of my accountant."

I hear you on this line Herb.

I hope to run with my f3 for a couple of years longer : )


Cards are in the post season again (yay) and so far I saw one guy with a Red down there. Didn't get a chance to ask him who he was shooting for but I'm thinking MLB

It seems to be coming on in sports lately. I heard talk of the Rams going Red and saw an article about CBS looking at 4k to blowup replays for the Super Bowl.

The NFL has money to burn. I think there is at least one other team that is gong with the f5

Teams do their own in-house stuff now and then hand it to FOX and say 'air this"

I'm thinking they might be happy to see that tube

While ESPN is pretty much done with 3D


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Walter Soyka
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 8:18:52 am

[Mark Raudonis] "One 4K camera can give you THREE camera angles: WS, CU left, CU RT. "

[Jeremy Garchow] "That's exactly my use for 4k as well. One camera, multiple hi resolution crops."

[Chris Harlan] "Back in the SD world, I used to do that all the time with HD."

Somewhere out there, a DP just shed a silent tear.

(But hey, that's what they get when we have to fix it in post...)

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Scott Witthaus
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 12:32:38 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Somewhere out there, a DP just shed a silent tear."

This is so true. Last three series of spots I cut (and the next one coming up) were all shot on Epic and at 5k (I cut on Premiere which barely kept up with me, crashed several times). We created the CU's and such by simply resizing. And of course, the post side made money by replicating depth of field changes for the re-po'ed shots.

I like the idea of iMovie looking more like FCPX. Apple is playing for the future (where the puck will be) and this is one way to hook the newbies. Of course, they need to not repeat the mistake of Avid when they had Xpress, MC and Symphony that were all so close in features that it just confused the marketplace.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 12:49:38 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "We created the CU's and such by simply resizing. And of course, the post side made money by replicating depth of field changes for the re-po'ed shots"

Which is why it's a really bad idea. The optics are wrong. On top of that, you are enlarging the compression artifacts inherent in the image. It's OK in a pinch, but no director or DP should plan on that as a viable alternative to getting the shot in-camera.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 1:17:02 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Which is why it's a really bad idea."

Or a good idea when you have a really bad budget. This will help with some lower budget corporate videos. It'll also help digging out of some holes as a lesser evil.



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Steve Connor
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 2:03:31 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Or a good idea when you have a really bad budget. This will help with some lower budget corporate videos. It'll also help digging out of some holes as a lesser evil.
"


Agreed, we are doing this already with our Sony F55 footage, I know it's not as good as doing it in camera, but it is certainly a big help on some of our jobs.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Scott Witthaus
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 4:34:54 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Which is why it's a really bad idea. The optics are wrong. On top of that, you are enlarging the compression artifacts inherent in the image. It's OK in a pinch, but no director or DP should plan on that as a viable alternative to getting the shot in-camera."

I agree 100%. "Fixing" in post will never look as good as in the glass and usually ends up costing more money in the end.

sw

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 4:48:34 pm

[Oliver Peters] " It's OK in a pinch, but no director or DP should plan on that as a viable alternative to getting the shot in-camera."

So on interviews, you are going to ask them to do it exactly like that again after you stop and change lenses to get the close up?

I know what you're saying, but reality gets in the way.

Isn't this was Red has been claiming all along? Use 4k to repo in 1080.


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Oliver Peters
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 4:55:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So on interviews, you are going to ask them to do it exactly like that again after you stop and change lenses to get the close up?"

Most interviews I've cut lately were shot with 2 C300s or 7Ds or 5Ds or Panasonic HVXs. The alternate angle looks far better than the close-up punch-in. I've also seen punch-ins from an Alexa done with Baselight and the quality from 1080 actually held up well. Far better than the quality you get from a zoom on an NLE. Of course, for the interview, it actually helps to use a camera operator who actually listens and reframes accordingly. That's if it's truly run-and-gun.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 5:11:20 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Of course, for the interview, it actually helps to use a camera operator who actually listens and reframes accordingly. That's if it's truly run-and-gun."

I take it you don't go on many interview shoots.

There's no way in hell you are going to stop and, pick up the camera and move it 10 feet forward, and then have to move the lights/equipment, or change to a longer lens, and say "Ok, once more with feeling".

It just doesn't fly like that most of the time on interviews.

We hardly shoot with zooms anymore. It's all primes. The Cabrios are wonderful lenses, and they can come close to what used to be done in the ENG days of yesteryore, but it's a different ballgame out there today.

We try and shoot 2 cameras whenever possible, but two F55s or two Alexas will blow a budget to smithereens. Alexa, for the most part, is only 2k anyway (and a beautiful 2k at that).

I know that repo on 4k isn't as good as shooting the 4k closeup, but in a blind taste test, 95.9% (actual fact) of the clients wouldn't know, and I bet, even in the most Hollywood of Hollywood, highest end, whizbang, sizzle core beast equivalent of a movie, 4k images get repo'd (also actual fact) as most movies are shown in 2k. You mean to tell me they don't take advantage of that?

Also, are any of those cameras you are using shot in 4k?


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Oliver Peters
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 5:17:41 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I take it you don't go on many interview shoots."

Production is too much like work ;-) So no. But I cut a lot of them.

[Jeremy Garchow] "We try and shoot 2 cameras whenever possible, but two F55s or two Alexas will blow a budget to smithereens. Alexa, for the most part, is only 2k anyway (and a beautiful 2k at that).
"


So shoot with two 5Ds using primes. If your target it 1080 anyway, it doesn't matter and you get an even shallower DOF.

[Jeremy Garchow] "but in a blind taste test, 95.9% (actual fact) of the clients wouldn't know"

By that measurement, I can simply blow-up a 1080 shot to about 125% and get away with it ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 5:53:39 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Production is too much like work ;-)"

I got a good chuckle out of that.

I hear what you're saying.


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Andy Mees
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Nov 6, 2013 at 3:25:29 pm

[Oliver Peters] "By that measurement, I can simply blow-up a 1080 shot to about 125% and get away with it ;-)"

With HD pix I can routinely punch in up to 150% and get away with it (with a bit of sharpening) ... don't tell anyone I do it though or they might make me stop. ;-)


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Oliver Peters
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Nov 6, 2013 at 9:10:33 pm

I've routinely blown up Alexa footage to 120% or more and you can hardly see any difference. Baselight and Resolve do the best job of upscaling, but FCP X isn't bad. AE is a bit better, but not as good as Resolve. I'm sure Quantel is also good, but not available to me. Haven't tested it on Smoke, yet.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Nov 6, 2013 at 9:14:46 pm

This reminds me. I have something for you guys:

6766_optics264.mov.zip

Jeremy


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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Nov 6, 2013 at 9:41:11 pm

Thanks for posting that, it works beautifully. But again, only for one interviewee.

which reminds me of a story (I can see my son rolling his eyes...)

Years ago in the days of 1" we did a really boring corporate spot with the very stiff and boring VP of some stiff and boring company I have long since forgotten the name of. No cutaways, no nothing, just a 3 minute speech direct to camera using a teleprompter. After the shoot we get a call from the client that we have to remove one of the product names from the middle of the speech. Of course the client didn't understand what the difficulty with this jump cut would be. What to do?

We had some plans, an ADO blow up that zooms back to full frame as we fly some Chyron junk out to distract the viewer at the cut point being the most prominent, but when the session started we first just made the cut full frame and Boom - it's invisible.

This VP was so stiff and stationary you couldn't see the jump cut.

Not believing my eyes, I pulled everyone in the facility into the studio, one at a time, to show them the piece and no one saw the cut. After watching it a few dozen times I could see a little waggle in the bottom of his tie, but that was it.

One of my favorite moments in video.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Nov 6, 2013 at 9:53:42 pm

[Herb Sevush] "One of my favorite moments in video."

So that's the trick then. Don't move!

:)


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Oliver Peters
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 5:20:12 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Also, are any of those cameras you are using shot in 4k?
"


The film I'm currently cutting was shot with RED Ones at 4K and I'm blowing up a fair number of shots. It will look fine, but just one more issue to keep track of going through the grading round-trip. It's a 1080 finish.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 6:41:30 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "There's no way in hell you are going to stop and, pick up the camera and move it 10 feet forward, and then have to move the lights/equipment, or change to a longer lens, and say "Ok, once more with feeling"."

What you need is an old Bolex turret mount where you can have 3 primes available at all times. I believe the digital/bolex guys will be adding this as a feature, if they ever release the camera.

http://www.digitalbolex.com/store/

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 5:15:20 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Most interviews I've cut lately were shot with 2 C300s or 7Ds or 5Ds or Panasonic HVXs. The alternate angle looks far better than the close-up punch-in. I've also seen punch-ins from an Alexa done with Baselight and the quality from 1080 actually held up well. Far better than the quality you get from a zoom on an NLE. Of course, for the interview, it actually helps to use a camera operator who actually listens and reframes accordingly. That's if it's truly run-and-gun."

Oliver, have you edited anything shot in 4K and used 'punch ins" to get more shots. Because we do this all the time in FCPX with XAVC footage and get great results with anything up to a 250% crop. We do use reasonable primes and have a great DOP who lights well, this probably helps.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Oliver Peters
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 5:22:17 pm

[Steve Connor] "Oliver, have you edited anything shot in 4K and used 'punch ins" to get more shots. "

Yes, but something about it just looks wrong to me, optically. I've also done a lot of 720 finishes shot with 1080 cameras for the same reason. The "fake" second angle.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 5:34:54 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Yes, but something about it just looks wrong to me, optically. I've also done a lot of 720 finishes shot with 1080 cameras for the same reason. The "fake" second angle."

This is of course the key point in this discussion.

The optics of pushing in are all wrong - forget shooting with beautiful primes if you're just going to ruin the optical effect by dramatic reframing.

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 5:53:58 pm

I don't use it as a second angle, just as punch in.

You also have to frame for this sort of thing going in.

The wide shot is going to be looser than normal, the eye line should be as tight to camera as possible, and it helps to have the subject towards center frame.

What really works the best is looking in direct to camera.


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Mark Raudonis
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 24, 2013 at 3:02:24 am

Our interviews are primarily on green screen. Therefore, when you punch in, you can easily send the background into a greater blur, mimicking the optics of a longer lense. It actually works quite well.



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Oliver Peters
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 4:56:33 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Isn't this was Red has been claiming all along? Use 4k to repo in 1080."

Actually no. They've been advocating delivering in 4K. That's why they had to develop a camera that can do 5K and larger.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 5:12:45 pm

I would have to do some serious internet digging, but part of the informal pitch was to use 4k to repo your shots for HD.

I know Jim, and Graeme, typed those words.


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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 5:34:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So on interviews, you are going to ask them to do it exactly like that again after you stop and change lenses to get the close up?"

Well yes, this is generally how it was done for the last half century or so. But much better is to have multiple cameras. The only good application for the single camera over sampled technique is interviews where the talent is speaking directly to the camera, not the interviewer. You can zoom where you want for emphasis after editing for content, you can occasionally mask a jump cut by switching frame size. Previously to achieve the same result you could use 2 cameras at 90 degree angles to each other shooting thru a 50% partially silvered mirror, but that's a clumsy set up and not many know the technique. But for any other type of interview over sampling comes in a way distant second to multiple cameras in any aspect other than cost - for a 2 person interview I'd rather shoot with 3 iPhones than one 4k camera.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 5:53:34 pm

[Herb Sevush] "over sampling comes in a way distant second to multiple cameras in any aspect other than cost"

Where we work cost is the biggest issue!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 6:15:53 pm

[Steve Connor] "Where we work cost is the biggest issue!"

Where everyone works it's always cost vs quality. Cost is concrete, quality is ethereal and the accountant usually wins. If I had a single camera single subject interview I would opt for 4K if I could afford it. Sometimes it's cheaper to shoot the interview twice with a cheaper camera. My aesthetic is simple enough, I need to see both eyes of my subject, which is why a single camera two man interview with punch ins would never work for me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 7:11:32 pm

Then I could be as cool as these peeps: http://vimeo.com/70914324#


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 6:05:27 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The only good application for the single camera over sampled technique is interviews where the talent is speaking directly to the camera, not the interviewer. "

Ah, you beat me to it.


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Herb Sevush
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 6:26:16 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Ah, you beat me to it."

Age before beauty.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 6:30:14 pm

I don't know if you noticed....

but I am a dog.


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Craig Seeman
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 1:14:59 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "I like the idea of iMovie looking more like FCPX. Apple is playing for the future "

Or one might say iMovie moves closer to Ubillos' "First Cut" where clients can do selects or roughs which can be more easily imported into FCPX for finishing. Of course that could be done before with iMovie import but the closer they are as tools (from basic iMovie to advanced FCPX) the easier it is for clients to grasp the workfow (pre-organization).



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Marcus Moore
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 3:51:30 am

Yeah. I saw that one. I'd wager that's the current interface, unless nothing has changed. I think the small size of the image is making the boxes seem more square.



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John Moffat
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 7:55:11 am

... and no project icon in the bottom left of the interface.


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Gerrit Van Dyke
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 3:52:59 pm

Looks nice, I personally can't stand the rounded edges of the clips - I get it from an aesthetics point of view, but I hate how it's harder to see how if clips on separate layers line up properly on the timeline. And it just looks wrong to me.


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Jeff Meyer
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 3:52:35 am

If LUTs interest you Premiere is doing them realtime, and they've been doing it since CC dropped. Nice presets bundled as well.


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Oliver Peters
Re: New FCPX confirmed for December
on Oct 23, 2013 at 1:12:59 pm

A related piece. Obviously Apple loaned him the machine.

http://9to5mac.com/2013/10/22/interview-with-photographer-lucas-gilman-one-...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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