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The missing option...

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Eric Santiago
The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 2:06:45 pm

This looks promising







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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 2:48:58 pm

Bring it.


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Eric Santiago
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 3:15:46 pm

Sent him about R3D option.

Hope it works :)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 3:32:45 pm

SLog2 and S-Gamut would be nice as well!

I wonder what the performance is like. Usually LUT filters are fairly atrocious.


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Walter Soyka
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 3:38:40 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "SLog2 and S-Gamut would be nice as well!"

The top item in the list of LUTs was "External File."


[Jeremy Garchow] "I wonder what the performance is like. Usually LUT filters are fairly atrocious."

Wasn't it playing in real-time on the video? Scaled video, sure, but still promising.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Kent Beeson
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 3:58:25 pm

OK, so what exactly is LUT? I know it's Look up table but is it a LOOK that is applied instantly to the clip but can't tweak it or what is it? Is it like using MB's Quick Looks or something?


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Walter Soyka
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 4:13:23 pm

[Kent Beeson] "OK, so what exactly is LUT? I know it's Look up table but is it a LOOK that is applied instantly to the clip but can't tweak it or what is it? Is it like using MB's Quick Looks or something?"

As you said, a LUT is a look-up table. LUTs describe a fixed transformation from one color space to another. For each pixel in the image, you look up the value of the input in the table and set it to the corresponding output value.

LUTs are not traditionally used for creative looks, but rather for technical color transforms -- like moving from a specific camera's acquisition color space to a display space like Rec. 709.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Kent Beeson
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 4:21:28 pm

Thanks for info - wondered.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 4:32:34 pm

LUTs also transform gamma, not just color.


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Walter Soyka
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 4:38:03 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "LUTs also transform gamma, not just color."

Yes, I was using a very literal definition of color in the sense that a gamma change IS a color change -- but you're certainly right to point out that LUTs don't just shift hue.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 4:46:37 pm

[Walter Soyka] "LUTs are not traditionally used for creative looks,"

For those that haven't considered using LUT's as a creative tool:

http://juanmelara.com.au/print-film-emulation-luts-for-download/

S.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 4:59:00 pm

[Sandeep Sajeev] "For those that haven't considered using LUT's as a creative tool:

http://juanmelara.com.au/print-film-emulation-luts-for-download/"


Nice one.


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Walter Soyka
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 5:07:17 pm

[Sandeep Sajeev] "For those that haven't considered using LUT's as a creative tool:"

I didn't meant to say it couldn't or shouldn't be done. I've used LUTs exactly this way myself, and there are actually quite of few of them for sale for various grading packages.

Any technical tool can be used creatively. But in contrast with a more creative-focused tool like MB Looks as Kent mentioned, LUTs offer no tweakable control. LUTs don't have qualifiers or localized adjustments built-in. They simply globally transform color set A to color set B. That's the distinction I was trying to draw.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 5:13:04 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I didn't meant to say it couldn't or shouldn't be done."

I know. I added that link for those just getting acquainted with LUT's. It can be quite technical when first encountered, and Juan does a really good job making it simple.

S.


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Walter Soyka
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 5:33:32 pm

By the way, Sandeep, thanks for the tip a couple weeks ago on Mamba. 3D LUTs and lots more, all in real-time.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 6:13:45 pm

Yeah looks like SGO have hit the sweet spot with Mamba. It has all the comp functionality that an assist station needs. They need to start knocking out more tutorials and demos though, as they make the strangest front-ends in the industry, and Mamba isn't going to be easy to learn.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 5:36:10 pm

[Walter Soyka] "LUTs don't have qualifiers or localized adjustments built-in. They simply globally transform color set A to color set B. That's the distinction I was trying to draw."

I do like that this one seems to have a "mix" adjustment so you can at least add more or less LUT flavor as needed.


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Gary Huff
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 5:57:45 pm

[Sandeep Sajeev] "For those that haven't considered using LUT's as a creative tool:"

Pointless. What sensor/lens combination were this LUTs created with to make them accurate? Utterly pointless to use LUTs like this.


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Walter Soyka
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 6:07:40 pm

[Gary Huff] "Pointless. What sensor/lens combination were this LUTs created with to make them accurate? Utterly pointless to use LUTs like this."

Why would accuracy be a requirement when using a LUT aesthetically?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 6:20:10 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Why would accuracy be a requirement when using a LUT aesthetically?"

Exactly.

Used in the way that Sandeep linked to, it is very similar to something like MB Looks, it's just meant to emulate actual film stocks instead of overall looks of movie/TV Shows.

It has often been said that choosing a camera and the inherent color schemes it provides is akin to choosing different film stocks.


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Gary Huff
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 9:06:37 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Why would accuracy be a requirement when using a LUT aesthetically?"

Because you like the look of a particular film stock, but that film stock look doesn't look anything like it's supposed to when you apply it because it's incredibly limited by being based on what was used to generate it in the first place?

Have you ever played with these "looks" LUTs? You'll get better results with Magic Bullet Looks.


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Walter Soyka
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 9:46:54 pm

[Gary Huff] "Because you like the look of a particular film stock, but that film stock look doesn't look anything like it's supposed to when you apply it because it's incredibly limited by being based on what was used to generate it in the first place? Have you ever played with these "looks" LUTs? You'll get better results with Magic Bullet Looks."

You're still thinking about it too technically. The process in question here is not, "Oh, I like the look of Kodak 2393, I'll use that LUT" -- because you're right that LUTs are not color space-independent. You'd need a custom LUT for each combination of input and output spaces.

It's more like running through these as totally canned presets -- "Click, oh, I don't like that, click, don't like that either, click, ooh, this one looks nice..."

There is no reason you can't get fine results with this process. Of course you won't have the degree of control that you'd have with Looks (which is actually a pretty sophisticated package if you dig into it) or a proper grading app, which comes back around to why I said LUTs are generally technical and not creative in the first place.

If you're really into film, FilmConvert [link] looks really promising, and to your point, works in part by being aware of the acquiring camera.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Gary Huff
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 12, 2013 at 1:09:08 am

[Walter Soyka] "If you're really into film, FilmConvert [link] looks really promising, and to your point, works in part by being aware of the acquiring camera."

Yeah, I got that one, but I just see this LUT packs as being a waste of money. You can do exactly the same thing with Magic Bullet Looks, but with better ability to tweak (Looks may be more gimmicky than anything, but you do get the Colorista and Cosmo interfaces within, two plugins I use extensively).


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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 6:19:24 pm

I think in such situations, when you're not going out to film, and are working within an environment that gives you both visual and numerical feedback, you can safely use a LUT as a creative complement to your grading process.

Accuracy of the LUT is not really the critical factor here.


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Gary Huff
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 12, 2013 at 1:27:05 am

[Sandeep Sajeev] "
Accuracy of the LUT is not really the critical factor here."


My point isn't even about accuracy. It's the fact that the direct correlation of values is so out of whack, that it usually looks like shit and you have to basically tweak the hell out of it anyway, so what's the point?


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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 12, 2013 at 5:50:10 am

[Gary Huff] "it usually looks like shit and you have to basically tweak the hell out of it anyway, so what's the point?"

You're generalizing. If you actually try using his LUT's with the recommended Profiles set in Resolve, you'll see that they do work quite well generally. And they're free, he's giving them away. He's even got examples of his workflow using them on his site.


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Gary Huff
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 12, 2013 at 2:59:08 pm

[Sandeep Sajeev] "You're generalizing."

You have some examples of using these LUTs on projects? Would love to see them.


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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 14, 2013 at 12:09:09 pm

Yes, I'm actually using it a Digital spot right now. I'll try and get permission to post some before and after shots.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 4:09:58 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The top item in the list of LUTs was "External File.""

I saw that, and those are the ones that usually don't perform as well.



[Walter Soyka] "Wasn't it playing in real-time on the video? Scaled video, sure, but still promising."

Mmm, kind of clever editing there.


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Walter Soyka
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 4:17:35 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I saw that, and those are the ones that usually don't perform as well."

In what context? It shouldn't make a difference.

LUTs can be easily GPU-accelerated [link].

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 4:31:17 pm

[Walter Soyka] "In what context? It shouldn't make a difference."

But for whatever reason it does, at least with FCP7.

Take Glue Tools. Glue Tools allows a sweet Color and Gamma transform from LogC to Rec709.

It plays in mostly real time.

But Lut Buddy, is slow. Sure, there's giant price point between free and Glue Tools, but you see what I'm saying. All filters are not created equal, and LUTs aren't always simple drag and drop operations.

Sure, they can be GPU accelerated, but this is Apple we are talking about here.


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Walter Soyka
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 4:45:38 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "But Lut Buddy, is slow. Sure, there's giant price point between free and Glue Tools, but you see what I'm saying. All filters are not created equal, and LUTs aren't always simple drag and drop operations. Sure, they can be GPU accelerated, but this is Apple we are talking about here."

I hope that FCP7 does not set the bar here for effects processing. Poor performance is a choice now.

But I guess you are right to point this out. As Oliver is fond of pointing out [link], Apple does seem to have a faster pipeline for their own FCPX-native "effects" than the Motion pipeline available to third-party developers.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 4:53:55 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I hope that FCP7 does not set the bar here for effects processing. Poor performance is a choice now."

I only used FCP7 as X hasn't really had a LUT option until now. The LogC option is built in to FCPX now and it works well. How well is this 3rd party filter going to work?

[Walter Soyka] "As Oliver is fond of pointing out [link], Apple does seem to have a faster pipeline for their own FCPX-native "effects" than the Motion pipeline available to third-party developers."

Right.

What is interesting is that there is a "Color Space Override" option in FCPX that is a simple drop down menu that transforms color profiles. It is only available on footage where the profile does not match the assumed space (say 601 on a clip that should be 709). I wish we could add true LUTs to this ,not just color profiles, and that it would work on any clip. The performance is fantastic, but it's a lot less math than what is typically a 3D LUT.


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Mark Dobson
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 10, 2013 at 4:39:33 pm

I noticed that there is CLogtoRec709 setting which could be useful as I film with Clog switched on pretty much all the time but as with all these plugin the proof will be in the pudding if you know what I mean.

Certainly more useful than the latest Cineflare plugin 'Handheld' which simulates rubbish, out of focus, shaky camerawork. This could put me out of work.


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David Chapman
Re: The missing option...
on Oct 16, 2013 at 4:11:10 am

I'm very excited about this Lut utility for FCPX. I actually emailed Denver months ago detailing how I'd like Luts to work in FCPX and I guess it was inspired from some of that discussion.

One of the best things to note here is that you probably have Denver's work on your iPhone right now. Not only is he a talented colorist, he also designed all the color grades for the new Instagram app. I have no doubt that some of his presets for this will look amazing.


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