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Am I old fashion?

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Baz Leffler
Am I old fashion?
on Oct 8, 2013 at 10:49:58 pm

With the new FCPX being out for over 2 years now, and all the mass debate regarding it, I find myself continually using FCP 7.

Even though I have Avid MC 6 and Symphony 6, Adobe CS6 and of course FCPX, I just seem to keep using FCP 7.

On the weekend one of my producers called me 'old fashion'. Really?
I asked him if he had a 'wired telephone' at home and he said 'yes'. So there you go...

FCP 7 is a tool that works for me and earns me money. My clients want me to do quality work on a very fast turn around. I do that with FCP 7.

Funny thing is, I am now discovering over half my colleges are also still using FCP 7.

You would think that some clever software guys out there would grab hold of that model and take it where Apple should have, rather than saying 'it's all too hard, lets start again'....

Baz


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Al LeVine
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 8, 2013 at 11:15:35 pm

Same boat as you. I know FCP X, Premiere, etc... But I'm still using FCP 7 99% of the time on a network animated show. I can't see our workflow working in FCP X. It's still working really really well for our needs.

Most other editors I know in both animation and movie trailers are still on FCP 7 as well. The Los Angeles scene (at least the one I'm a part of) just hasn't really switched over.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 8, 2013 at 11:46:50 pm

Baz,

I sell many of the most advanced editing tools on the market now, and yet the vast majority of my customers still use FCP 7 for much of their work. And, that includes editors in their bathrobes working at their kitchen tables, all the way up to enterprise level facilities.

Premiere is rapidly gaining a foothold however, simply because Adobe keeps making it more and more similar to FCP legacy, while continuing to improve its feature set.

Avid is hanging in there, neither seeming to grow or shrink its fan-base.

And, only a small handful of our customers seem to be cutting on FCPX.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 12:13:49 am

It's totally up to each persons preferences and workflow.

I worked on Legacy FCP for over a decade, and after a year of working on X I hate opening 7 now.

But I'll be the first person to admit it isn't currently the best fit for every workflow (though there's probably someone out there doing it).

Since it seems we're headed for the first big revision in a couple of weeks, that will be the point at which it would make sense to re-evaluate the software and see what progress they've made.

But if you could keep doing what you're doing on 7 and have no reason to move off, and save the cost of investing in new software and hardware- it's certainly not the worst rationale to have.



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Gary Huff
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 12:37:44 am

[Baz Leffler] " My clients want me to do quality work on a very fast turn around. I do that with FCP 7."

How are you doing fast turn around when you have to transcode nearly everything before you can even start?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 2:16:54 am

For us, the true death of fcp7 will be the Sony f55. Currently, the fcp7 workflow is a pain I the ass, or non existent with 4k.

Personally, I am editing in X when I know in the only person going to be working in that project as I am the only one taking time to figure it out at this point. fcp7 is used when more than one of us will be working on a project, as well as our extensive fcp7 archive of projects that we revisit time to time.

I am waiting for the next version of X, and a round of hardware updates before pushing X down on everyone else. Since I will have to field the myriad of questions that will surely come once Day X arrives, I have to have lived it for long enough to know some of the answers.

It doesn't surprise me that many are sticking with fcp7. It's not old fashioned anymore than shooting HD vs 4k is old fashioned.

Fcp7 is still relevant.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 2:04:20 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am waiting for the next version"

If always comes down to this. Doesn't it? ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 2:19:28 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Jeremy Garchow] "I am waiting for the next version"

If always comes down to this. Doesn't it? ;-)

- Oliver"


How many versions did it take for Premiere to get any sort of broad acceptance?

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Oliver Peters
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 2:24:34 pm

[Steve Connor] "How many versions did it take for Premiere to get any sort of broad acceptance?"

It has broad acceptance?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Marcus Moore
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 2:32:22 pm

Agreed. And how many for legacy FCP?

Anyone who thinks it's "too late" for FCPX and is now using Premier has already provided the proof for the self-defeating argument. A couple years ago fewer people were using Premier seriously than are probably using FCPX now. Adobe has made some great progress and deserves a loyal following- but it's taken a while to get here.



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Oliver Peters
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 2:42:29 pm

[Marcus Moore] "Anyone who thinks it's "too late" for FCPX "

Well, I certainly don't, but my point - half in jest - was this. The tone of 'waiting for the next version', tends to imply the belief that somehow Apple will depart from the course it has set with X. (And I don't mean that is exactly what Jeremy meant.) I really doubt that would happen, because it would imply they accepted that they made a mistake. Regardless of whether you think they did or didn't - I don't believe that they believe that. Making such a change would simply not be Apple.

Therefore, X.1 is going to be more of the same, hopefully with better performance and some of the gaps filled in. If you like the FCP 7 interface/interaction model, nothing is going to get you to move to X or X.1. It's simply a different beast and that won't change.

Likewise, I don't see anything they are likely to do in this next version - given the course I believe they are on - that's going to seriously bring the other editors on board, in a situation like Jeremy described. That is, where a small percentage have adopted X and they rest haven't.

Of course, most of you may disagree.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Marcus Moore
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 2:54:41 pm

I agree with much of that. Though I'm a bit less pessimistic in regards to Legacy editors moving to X. All indications are there's a large market still waiting on be captured. Those people are holding on for any number of reasons- money, time investment, personal preference...

A percentage will- how high that percentage is will depend on a bunch of factors.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 3:30:55 pm

[Marcus Moore] " there's a large market still waiting on be captured. Those people are holding on for any number of reasons- money, time investment, personal preference..."

This is a subject worth more discussion:

Why are so many editors holding on to Legacy for so long when there are so many other options available?

Remember that Apple hadn't really upgraded Legacy itself since FCP6, which was releaed in 2007, over 6 years ago, which seems a lifetime ago technologically. The DSLR revolution hadn't gotten underway yet, 4K was unimaginable, 3D hadn't yet come and gone. So why in a technological field like video, where camera's seem to come and go every 2 years, are so many holding onto such antiquated software?

The answer can't have anything to do with any singular features of FCP Legacy itself since the same thing can be said of Avid systems, where many users haven't upgraded in a similar span of time.

Are most editors simply befuddled curmudgeons, as Bill Davis has often implied, terrified of change and holding onto the past? If so what characteristics of editors make them behave so differently from DP's, who seem to embrace change with every new sensor release? Or is there something intrinsic to the field of editing that accounts for such behavior? Or is it simply that the old tools were actually quite advanced and adequate for many workflows and the inefficiency of change for change sake has been properly accounted for?

Until you can come to some reasonable conclusion about these questions I doubt you'll have any real idea of what the future market prospects for any NLE might be.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 3:37:01 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Are most editors simply befuddled curmudgeons, as Bill Davis has often implied, terrified of change and holding onto the past? If so what characteristics of editors make them behave so differently from DP's, who seem to embrace change with every new sensor release? Or is there something intrinsic to the field of editing that accounts for such behavior? Or is it simply that the old tools were actually quite advanced and adequate for many workflows and the inefficiency of change for change sake has been properly accounted for?"

Can of worms anyone?

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Marcus Moore
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 4:04:28 pm

I can say with unequivocal certainty from the video work I see all the time that many people's needs are just very low. I've seen videos in the last year that I wouldn't have been surprised to see made in the mid-1990s.

There's thousand upon thousands of small post houses out there that have their steady diet of local or regional businesses who frankly don't expect much and are happy to see something moving and in colour.

Local TV spots especially seem to be mired in a mid-90's mindset. The old tropes about local auto dealerships and flooring and carpet warehouses are as true today as they were 20 years ago.

These companies don't get much per spot, but have lucrative annual bulk contracts.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 4:34:55 pm

[Marcus Moore] " I've seen videos in the last year that I wouldn't have been surprised to see made in the mid-1990s.
"


Your references seem to be local tv spots. I don't doubt you. On the other hand some of the most conservative editors technologically are the a-list Hollywood editors. So I don't think you can say quality is the dividing line.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Marcus Moore
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 4:39:17 pm

No- absolutely. But I think there's a large contingent at the bottom end of the Professional market who's needs are still being met by nearly decade old software.

And you're right- if someone is in hollywood JUST cutting TV or Film- someone else took care of online, graphics, audio... if you're just the editor, then comfortable process pretty much trumps everything.



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Charlie Austin
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 5:14:54 pm

[Herb Sevush] "On the other hand some of the most conservative editors technologically are the a-list Hollywood editors. So I don't think you can say quality is the dividing line."

I agree. and I think Nicholas notes a fairly likely reason why:

[Nikolas Bäurle] "One of the main factors is the fear many have of not being fast enough. Even as a very fast editor I find myself dealing with doubts every now and again, especially when I haven't used an NLE for a certain kind of job. The other day I was training myself on Avid 7 to get the same kind of curvy crazy animations I like doing in X. I've never had the similar workflows on Avid since what I do on each NLE is different."


Setting aside that X (or anything other than your main axe) may or may not meet all your technical needs... It's hard for someone who is used to, and expected to, scream through edits, to learn a new workflow, interface, KB command set etc. When you have to think "how do I do this" every few minutes, it's really frustrating. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the mindset. I see it here among our 5 other editors.

4 are on FCP 7 and making no effort to learn *anything* else. They're enticed by what they've seen of X from my bay, but feel like they have no time to mess with it (or Pr or MC). The other, who does most of our AE stuff, is poking around Pr. Not because it's better or worse, but because it's familiar. I'm doing temp GFX and some other stuff that he can't easily do, or has to go to AE for, and the metadata stuff in X is hugely enticing. Despite that, despite that fact that I'm cutting in X and finishing the same jobs, in hollywood, in the next room, He still feels like "nobody likes X". It's… interesting.

We were relatively slow here for about a month when I picked up X. I'm not sure I would have had, or even wanted to spend the time to bumble my way through it otherwise. And on my own time, when I have it, the last thing I want to do is stare at, and swear at, a computer screen. :-)

Clearly, this isn't the only reason, but I think it's significant.

[Herb Sevush] "Your references seem to be local tv spots."

Not that it was your intent, I don't think it was, but this is a pretty common refrain, evidenced by the "get an IMDB credit" comment above. X hasn't had it's Cold Mountain Moment as far as some in "Hollywood" are concerned. The Coen Brothers carry more weight than some Chinese guy… :-) And until a "name" editor finishes something on X, a lot of folks won't take it seriously. And some people won't ever like it. We do have a lot of choices now though… That's always been the case with new things I think… ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 6:03:16 pm

[Charlie Austin] "[Herb Sevush] "Your references seem to be local tv spots."

Not that it was your intent, I don't think it was, but this is a pretty common refrain, evidenced by the "get an IMDB credit" comment above. X hasn't had it's Cold Mountain Moment as far as some in "Hollywood" are concerned. "


I had no intent, I was just making a non judgmental observation about your comments.

I think Hollywood editors are very conservative for a number of reasons -

1) operational speed is not essential, they get paid for thinking and organizational skills, not typing or mousing speed.

2) they have assistants to sweat the technical stuff.

3) stability and reliability are paramount. If Michael Bay is coming for a screening your sh*t better be working.

4) Citizen Kane and Chinatown were cut on upright moviolas; obviously talent trumps technology.

And as I used to say in my days working on industrials - the more story you have the less effects you need. Another adage was - "if the shot sucks, put it in a cube and spin it."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 6:28:17 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I had no intent, I was just making a non judgmental observation about your comments."

Of course, and I wasn't implying intent. Hopefully that came across. :-)

[Herb Sevush] "I think Hollywood editors are very conservative for a number of reasons -

1) operational speed is not essential, they get paid for thinking and organizational skills, not typing or mousing speed.
2) they have assistants to sweat the technical stuff."


Absolutely. But I there are also different breeds of Hollywood editors. For feature editors, you are correct. For people who cut TV, or Trailers/Promos etc, The opposite is often true. I know it is for me. Client on phone watching my cut in real time on a fiber connection with a deadline in 15 minutes to get something out to test over the weekend. Fast (and good) is essential. Sometimes a feature editor can cut a good trailer and visa versa, but it really is a different language, and timeframe. The point being, If you are really fast and competent on a particular NLE/DAW/GFX package etc, there's not much reason to change unless it just stops working.


[Herb Sevush] "3) stability and reliability are paramount. If Michael Bay is coming for a screening your sh*t better be working."

lol… that's true of many things other than features. :-) Anytime there's a client looking over your shoulder your sh*t better be working.


[Herb Sevush] "4) Citizen Kane and Chinatown were cut on upright moviolas; obviously talent trumps technology."

Yep… I really believe - and this has nothing specifically to do with the NLE choice topic - the quote in my sig below to be true. I saw something pretty impressive on the intertubes a while ago that had been shot, and cut, on an iPhone.

[Herb Sevush] "Another adage was - "if the shot sucks, put it in a cube and spin it.""

For us it's the explosion or other loud sound hiding the crappy music edit. It's an adage that's still in effect. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 7:55:18 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Absolutely. But I there are also different breeds of Hollywood editors. For feature editors, you are correct."

Excuse my provincialism - when I said Hollywood editors I meant feature film editors, whether working in LA, NY, London or anywhere else.

[Charlie Austin] "For us it's the explosion or other loud sound hiding the crappy music edit. It's an adage that's still in effect. ;-)"

In my old film editing days, when we were at the client approval stage, we used to stratergize as to who was supposed to cough when a particularly bad audio edit was coming up. For something really bad we might consider knocking over an ashtray.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 8:04:12 pm

[Herb Sevush] "In my old film editing days, when we were at the client approval stage, we used to stratergize as to who was supposed to cough when a particularly bad audio edit was coming up. For something really bad we might consider knocking over an ashtray."

Of course Herb, I never made a bad edit in my life... :)

However, my secret trick was to put something completely abysmal near the tail of the approval copy so that it became the ONLY topic of conversation. Then, I could always make the excuse that we simply didn't have time to make that one last fix.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Christopher Travis
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 16, 2013 at 6:32:23 pm

As an aside...

The needs for speed isn't only about the times you have a client over your shoulder, it's also about the ability to implement ideas as quickly as you can have them.

Yes, a lot of editing is about planning and knowing something will work before you do it. However when it comes to fine tuning and adjusting, fluency is required if one is not to loose patience and settle for something ok.


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 4:26:46 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Are most editors simply befuddled curmudgeons, as Bill Davis has often implied, terrified of change and holding onto the past? If so what characteristics of editors make them behave so differently from DP's, who seem to embrace change with every new sensor release? Or is there something intrinsic to the field of editing that accounts for such behavior? Or is it simply that the old tools were actually quite advanced and adequate for many workflows and the inefficiency of change for change sake has been properly accounted for?"

One of the main factors is the fear many have of not being fast enough. Even as a very fast editor I find myself dealing with doubts every now and again, especially when I haven't used an NLE for a certain kind of job. The other day I was training myself on Avid 7 to get the same kind of curvy crazy animations I like doing in X. I've never had the similar workflows on Avid since what I do on each NLE is different.

In my experience in Germany the job as Editor is generally very stressful. Especially in News, Magazine and MTV style editing. You are expected to multitask (editing, sound recording, fx) and many a times get blamed for mistakes that actually were made by producers or cameramen, and I've seen editors and experienced getting fired from jobs for really stupid reason. Even to the point where an editor was fired once many years a go, for not being able to handle a certain codec FCP didn't have at the time.

These experiences and the financial pressures from clients are one of the main reasons most are still using Legacy, most clients don't have a clue anyway, but I'm pretty certain once they start realising that working with roles (once mastered) is faster than classical tracks :-)), and why editor X is editing during import and rendering so fast, there will be change, not necessarily towards X but no more 7.
For some reason the FCP 7, 12 core suite I was using today was very slow, probably server, perhaps the fxfactory vignette I was using. It took 5 min for Legacy to duplicate a 60 min cut, Apple Pro Res 422, 8bit sequence. And the render times were fun today, had more time for lunch.

The interesting thing is that most X haters in my experience are Legacy Editors. The Avid editors I've trained and spoken to who had to use X were much more open to it, they didn't like everything but they also don't like everything about Avid. But once the Legacy editors got the hang of it, reactions were alway positive.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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tony west
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 10, 2013 at 5:42:09 am

[Herb Sevush] "Are most editors simply befuddled curmudgeons, as Bill Davis has often implied, terrified of change and holding onto the past? If so what characteristics of editors make them behave so differently from DP's, who seem to embrace change with every new sensor release?"

I would say one difference for me is that with a new camera you can really see a dramatic difference.

Like going from a half inch sensor camera to an f3 35 with nice prime glass. Unlike a camera, when you see something cut together most times you have no idea what it was cut on unless they tell you. So if you are cutting on some older NLE and you are good on it and comfortable, I don't think it's as big a deal to keep cutting on the old program.

VS you could lose a job if you don't show up with the latest camera the client wants the look of.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 4:47:06 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Therefore, X.1 is going to be more of the same, hopefully with better performance and some of the gaps filled in. "

And this is exactly what I am waiting for, big motivation to move from a proven system.

I don't want X to all of a sudden gain tracks, on the contrary, I want X to develop more of the existing methodologies.

And since I will be the guy responsible for helping everyone else here at work come on board, I am waiting until this much heralded next version comes out.

I haven't been bothered "beta testing" the first 9 releases thus far. ;)


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 3:21:40 pm

[Steve Connor] "How many versions did it take for Premiere to get any sort of broad acceptance?"

Of course, Premiere was not a replacement by Adobe for their own very popular NLE that was in use my tens of thousands of editors.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 4:41:27 pm

[Oliver Peters] "If always comes down to this. Doesn't it? ;-)"

Certainly.

Even if fcpx wasn't here, I'd still be waiting.

It's not only a change in NLE I am waiting for, it's a massive hardware change. So far, we've managed to skip the iMac intermediary.

It'll be new computers, new enclosures, new connectors.

If fcpx wasn't here and fcs3 was still dead, and the MacPro was dead, I'd be looking at a really big change.

Jeremy


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Andy Field
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 2:29:52 am

Actually someone has taken the FCP 7 model and improved it - it's called Premiere Pro CC - try it - you'll feel very comfortable...

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 6:12:58 am

I have to say I completely agree - CC is by far the best NLE I've ever used - far from perfect but really solid and very fast. While I keep an open mind for FCPX and hope Apple comes to their senses on the next rev, they've got their work cut out for them to top Adobe right now.

I'm on a TV special for the next month and had to install CC for all the Producer's who were FCP 7 users...it took about 30 seconds for them to get comfy and start roughing out selects, something they could have NEVER done with FCPX which, sadly, has the steepest learning curve of any NLE ever devised. While my suite is Mac, for some reason the Producer stations are all HP and even though none of them were PC users, we could still work in CC and share projects, files etc.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Charlie Austin
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 7:32:57 am

[Lance Bachelder] "While I keep an open mind for FCPX and hope Apple comes to their senses on the next rev"

And do what exactly? Put tracks back in? :-)

[Lance Bachelder] "for all the Producer's who were FCP 7 users...it took about 30 seconds for them to get comfy and start roughing out selects, something they could have NEVER done with FCPX which, sadly, has the steepest learning curve of any NLE ever devised."

No, it doesn't. I'll agree that it's hard for some folks who've worked pretty much the same way for a couple decades (including me) to get used to how X works. And that's fine. But I guarantee you that a producer who wasn't an FCP 7 editor, who had never edited on another system, would be able to learn X in about the same amount of time. FCP 7, Pr, MC?? NFW.

That's not a putdown of any of those apps BTW, but X is really approachable if you don't expect it to work a certain way, that's all....

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 7:48:36 am

Broken record as usual. I get it - you love FCPX - so go use it to get a couple of credits on IMDB.

FCPX is crapware - until Apple puts back TRACKS and other NECESSARY features that are required for professional use it will be nothing more than a novelty. Trix are for kids...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Steve Connor
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 8:09:56 am

[Lance Bachelder] "FCPX is crapware - until Apple puts back TRACKS and other NECESSARY features that are required for professional use it will be nothing more than a novelty. Trix are for kids...
"


It's just like the FCPX launch over again!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Charlie Austin
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 8:14:05 am

[Steve Connor] "It's just like the FCPX launch over again!"

LOL.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 8:14:38 am

I've got high hopes for the next rev of X - there's much to love about the current incarnation, but sadly, much to hate. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Apple is gonna right a lotta wrongs very soon...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Marcus Moore
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 12:42:24 pm

You may find this impossible to understand, but I desperately hope that returning legacy tracks isn't one of them.

My sincere belief is that Bins are to Keyword/Smart collections; what Tracks will be to Roles. The organizational advantage of Tracks without the fixed structure.



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Ronny Courtens
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 2:27:42 pm

Broken record as usual.

Yes indeed, Lance (-:

- Ronny


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Richard Herd
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 8:39:25 pm

Same amount of time? No. 7 times faster.

I already posted about it, ages ago. In a nutshell, when I taught hs, I taugh PP and X. The students were up and running in X, 2 weeks quicker -- a two week lesson in PP was 1 day in X.

This is also evidence of what Bill has said over and over and over ad nauseum until even the choir are rolling our eyes: trained editors have to disintoxicate their minds.


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 10, 2013 at 12:34:57 am

Is has been my experience as well. The Editors I trained for one of the places i was freelancing at got the hang of it within a day or two, one was even arrogant enough not to look at the software beforehand, but was able to work with it the next day.

Even though I understand that for many its hard to learn completely new workflows due to lack of time, or fear of loosing clients, I know several FCPX haters who have plenty of time to learn new software, they just don't want to. And one that had to, who at first was completely against it, suddenly likes working with X.

There's still a lot of anger about the change Apple made and there's still a lot of completely wrong information out there. I had an interesting conversation with a producer about X the other day, he had been using X once in a while learning with ripple training and larry jordan, but was worried that apple was leaving the pro market....this was what several editors had told him... the less someone has dealt with the X the bigger the opinion.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Charlie Austin
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 2:50:18 am

I'm in a similar situation to Jeremy. I prefer X, but if I'm on a job that requires lots of sequence swapping, I'll do it in 7. Out of 6 Editors, I use X (or Pr or MC if I'm feeling like pulling my hair out, but that's my problem, not the apps), 4 are on 7 and 1 uses 7 and Pr. I think there are 2 big things that keep folks from diving into 7... well, 3, if you count the never-ending FUD still out there...

One is the timeline. Arguably, once you're used to it, it's very hard to go back to a traditional NLE. It does, however, take some getting used to. Meaning you have to learn how to use it. ;-) That's hard for a lot of people, and that's the lure of Pr... it's more or less the same-ish as 7.

The other, and I think the biggest, is the fact that, people believe it's much harder to share "Projects" (the old meaning) between Editors. Which, in a way, is true. You can do it, it's not really hard, but it seems convoluted compared to "here's a project file (bin)" like 7 or Pr, or even MC.

Everybody can get behind the key wording, tagging, metadata goodness. It's awesome, and a huge selling point for X. And while the timeline isn't gonna change, it'll (hopefully!) get better. It still requires time to get used to, but It's worth the time. It's very enticing to others here, despite the "weirdness" of it. But I think that if Apple can fix the ability to easily share work somehow, it will be very helpful for larger, collaborative workflows. Hopefully they've been reading the feedback we've all been sending! :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Steve Connor
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 6:33:50 am

There's nothing wrong with not liking change, especially if your current workflow works well for you. That's why so many people like Avid

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Julian Bowman
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 7:36:21 am

Shhh, Steve, don't tell Bill that, his entire existence is based on the opposite of that very sane fact. The metaphysical meltdown won't be pretty.



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James Patterson
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 7:38:53 am

Hey, who says us Avid users don't like change? We got the ability use more than 27 characters in 6.5, only took 20 years!

Best

Paddy


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Gary Huff
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 1:25:33 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Meaning you have to learn how to use it. ;-)"

I do know how to use it, and it's still annoying from time to time, and there are certain projects for which tracks are simply better.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 3:07:56 pm

[Gary Huff] [Charlie Austin] "Meaning you have to learn how to use it. ;-)"
"I do know how to use it, and it's still annoying from time to time, and there are certain projects for which tracks are simply better."


And... I agree. I guess that part of my response earlier could be read as a putdown, and it really wasn't. I'm not a blind FCPX fan boy, I curse at the computer equally in all NLE's :-)

What I meant was you have to have the time to learn how to use it, something in short supply when you're on 3 gigs at once with deadlines/clients hanging over you.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Sascha Engel
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 8:12:38 am

Same here from Israel.
I used 7 for many years and I still do for big projects.
I started to get into X recently and used it already on 2 projects.
And yes it's fast, crazy fast, specially when you through mixed frame rates at it and you need quick results, that look flashy. But in terms of working with other departments- sound, AE and so on - its not there yet. And it misses many features, that a the corner stone of a pro app. So yes, FCP7 is still very relevant to me.
But I agree with some comments here, soon it'll die due to new cameras and codecs.
I just edited a film, that was shot on Canon C300 and in Mac OS 10.8.4 there is no more working plug in for the L&T Tool to ingest. So I had to ingest on my MBP which is still running on 10.6.8. - tiring work around, which made me understand, that as much as I still love 7, the world keeps spinning and since Apple EOLed the App, it will be less and less compatible with the outside world. A very stupid decision by Apple in my opinion. They should have had both Apps parallel. But seeing the new iOS 7, I understand Apple is on it's way down. Jobs is dead and seeing that every time He left Apple in the past, it was the moments Apple went downhill. I'm afraid I happens again, and yes, I think then I switch to PPro, since I also work with AE.

Sascha Engel
TIME BANDITZ Productions
http://www.youtube.com/taikang


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Andy Neil
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 6:08:14 pm

[Sascha Engel] "I just edited a film, that was shot on Canon C300 and in Mac OS 10.8.4 there is no more working plug in for the L&T Tool to ingest. So I had to ingest on my MBP which is still running on 10.6.8."

If you have X, then why didn't you just injest the footage in X and copy the resulting QTs to a folder to work in 7 if that's what you wanted to do? Probably would have made for an easier workaround.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Sascha Engel
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 7:59:47 pm

That was before I knew how to use it. Now I did a month of intensive training and I'm secure with it. Now, also all the good and bad of X is more obvious to me.

Sascha Engel
TIME BANDITZ Productions
http://www.youtube.com/taikang


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Mark Dobson
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 10:06:59 am

Hi Baz,

I'd say that, yes, you were definitely old fashioned.

But that's not to say that's a bad thing. You are obviously a highly skilled editor with many different editing packages on your hard drive and if, like many others, you are still happy with FCP7 there's no problem at the moment.

But in a couple of years that might well not be the case.

I just feel that by sidestepping FCPX you are missing out on using a superb piece of highly sophisticated software, albeit one with quite a few flaws that hopefully will be sorted out in the next upgrade ( this month? ) At each of the 3 stages of editing FCPX performs really well, ingest - with the Event library enabling files to be organised super quick, editing - once you get used to the trackless timeline it is a really flexible and fast tool, and export - literally one click to export or share your master file or sections of it.

Our production company has benefitted greatly through embracing this new software, tough at first, very problematic, but on a modern Mac it now runs as smooth as butter. With a Canon C300 and FCPX I really feel we have an amazing high quality production set up. Stanley Kubrick would have just loved it. ( If Kubrick had access to a C300 or C500 when he shot the candlelit scenes in Barry Lyndon he would have found the task a lot easier)

With the new update imminent and with the new mac pro about to hit the shelves I feel that many editors will be re-assessing FCPX.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 1:03:28 pm

[Baz Leffler] "Am I old fashion?"

Yes.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Baz Leffler
Re: Am I old fashion?
on Oct 9, 2013 at 11:53:24 pm

Thanks Herb - a quick question needs a quick answer!

Incidently, apart from running and owning a post house here in Sydney I have also branched out into multicam field work using ATEM production switchers.

Part of the requirement is to provide field recording, editing and turnarounds back into the main 'live' program.

For this I use a MBPr with FCPX and a Blackmagic Ultrastudio Thunderbolt I/O and a thunderbolt hard drive. When the 'fast turnaround' edit is complete it is played out 'live' direct from the FCPX timeline. If we have the time we export it to a SSD and play it out on a Hyperdeck studio to free up the editing system to keep editing.

So while I get accused of being 'old fashion' its all very hi-tech stuff that I designed myself! (I am not a youngser having worked in TV since the early '70's.)

I still have a field MBP running FCP 7 and a MXO2 but it gets mainly used now as a media player into the live programs.


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