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Marcus Moore
Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 3, 2013 at 9:15:16 pm

See here for more-

http://www.imore.com/adobe-confirms-huge-security-breach-29-million-user-ac...

edit- direct link to Adobe's blog post.

http://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2013/10/important-customer-security-an...


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Bob Zelin
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 3, 2013 at 9:54:13 pm

wow !

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 3, 2013 at 10:13:33 pm

Your account would still have been compromised if you had purchased a perpetual product from Adobe. But... I wonder if the subscription model encouraged these crooks.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 3, 2013 at 10:14:35 pm

Just a matter of time.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 3, 2013 at 10:34:21 pm

Not the first company to be hacked and won't be the last. Nature of the beast in these connected times.




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Bill Davis
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 3:15:39 am

I guess I feel that in any system where you have to re-authorize the card every month, you're put in a position where you have to have a current validatable card on constant file.

I know when I look at my Amazon Account, for example, I have maybe six cards going back in time, many of them expired or retired that will no longer authorize.

With the Apple purchase system, if I don't buy anything on-line from them for a while, I often find that I have an outdated card linked and I need to fix that prior to a new purchase. Depends entirely on your purchase frequency. I'm sitting here using FCP-X 10.0.8 which I bought nearly two years ago and am still actively using, so at least there's a chance if a black hat hacked them, the bad guy would only get an outdated card, provided I didn't hook the account up to a persistent funds source like AmEx.

Modern credit card roulette?

Maybe next time I should think about starting to make my on-line software purchases using pre-paid grocery store cards as a form of identity theft insurance?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 12:25:57 pm

[Bill Davis] "With the Apple purchase system, if I don't buy anything on-line from them for a while, I often find that I have an outdated card linked and I need to fix that prior to a new purchase."

It's not like Apple has been immune from this.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/22/technology/apple-hacked/index.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/19/tech/web/apple-hacked/index.html
http://www.zdnet.com/apples-advanced-fingerprint-technology-is-hacked-shoul...
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/08/apple-amazon-mat-honan-hacking/all/

[Bill Davis] "I guess I feel that in any system where you have to re-authorize the card every month, you're put in a position where you have to have a current validatable card on constant file. "

An interesting point is that the number of compromised Adobe accounts is greater than the total number of claimed CC subscribers. This would indicate it included customers who made boxed purchases in the past.

FWIW - BOA, Chase and others routinely have to re-issue Visa and MC cards. That's because these cards have been compromised.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Phil Hoppes
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 12:36:25 pm

Got the notification and just changed my Adobe PW. That being said, not any different from when I had to change it for Evernote, Dropbox and a number of other companies who's software I use or have purchased. Sign of the times. Not a reason at all to not use Adobe or any other software but a reminder that using only a single, easy password is like playing with fire. To that end; however, it would be nice if someone came up with a robust secure way for verification that did not involve passwords. Because of things like the Adobe and other company hacks, I don't trust any of these companies that want to secure your passwords online. I'm forced to keep a spreadsheet that I encrypt using very heavy encryption. I keep all of my login and other important passwords that are required in this spreadsheet. I started this practice years ago and as a rule, I never remove anything from the spreadsheet, even if I don't use the service or web page anymore. I just looked..... I'm up to 559 rows, where each row represents a unique password.

Good grief what a crazy society we have become.


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Mitch Ives
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 1:48:19 pm

[Phil Hoppes] "Not a reason at all to not use Adobe or any other software but a reminder that using only a single, easy password is like playing with fire."

I disagree. This incident clarifies yet another reason why the subscription model is not a good thing. As Bill pointed out, having to have a constantly current card on file for reoccurring monthly charges exposes you to a much higher level of potential fraud. Bill might be right about using prepaid cards for things like this. Sounds like a good strategy.

On another note, Adobe called me the other day about why I haven't gone to CC. He was practically begging me to join. I've never seen a company so desperate. They got an earful from me. I went from A-Z on why I won't use CC. I could tell he's heard this many times. He insisted that ALL companies would be going to a subscription model. I said "based on what evidence"? I contended that the whole industry was watching Adobe "go out on point", and that I was convinced that anybody who might have been considering it, has wisely backed away from it.

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 1:50:24 pm

[Mitch Ives] "having to have a constantly current card on file for reoccurring monthly charges"

I'm not so sure this is even true - especially if you purchase it annually.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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TImothy Auld
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 2:13:56 pm

I have an annual subscription but it is billed in monthly increments. So it is necessary for them to keep you card info on file.

Tim


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 2:19:03 pm

[TImothy Auld] "I have an annual subscription but it is billed in monthly increments. So it is necessary for them to keep you card info on file."

I stand corrected. I thought there was a lump-sum, up-front option, since you get 180-day grace period if you stop. Maybe that's only for Team accounts.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mitch Ives
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 2:28:29 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I'm not so sure this is even true - especially if you purchase it annually."

Not according to Adobe. It's billed monthly. FWIW, this is one of their biggest complaints. What happens when you're under a tight deadline and something doesn't get updated or charged correctly and your CC suite de-registers itself at that critical moment? I'm sure your client will be understanding that it's not your fault you failed to deliver on time...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 3:34:22 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Not according to Adobe. It's billed monthly. FWIW, this is one of their biggest complaints. What happens when you're under a tight deadline and something doesn't get updated or charged correctly and your CC suite de-registers itself at that critical moment? I'm sure your client will be understanding that it's not your fault you failed to deliver on time..."

You may have other reasons for not liking Creative Cloud, but CC won't turn off instantly at a critical moment as you describe above. Per the Creative Cloud FAQ [link], there is currently a 99-day grace period. That's apparently being bumped up to 180 days [link].

If something does go wrong, you'll have 3-6 months to sort it out.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Mitch Ives
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 3:59:19 pm

[Walter Soyka] "You may have other reasons for not liking Creative Cloud, but CC won't turn off instantly at a critical moment as you describe above. Per the Creative Cloud FAQ [link], there is currently a 99-day grace period. That's apparently being bumped up to 180 days [link]."

I feel some satisfaction over having played a small part in that... if it is actually true.

I actually had that experience, before CC. I, being a legitimate owner of CS6 had it de-register itself suddenly one day, on the very day we were rushing to meet a deadline. It seems that some "your trial has expired" message popped up. I had no "trial" of CS6... what I had was another in a series of upgrades, on a disc, with a distinct serial number... purchased directly from Adobe (how ironic). Since tech support (India) couldn't fix it, I ended up having to take everything requiring PS, etc. to a friends shop to finish my work. We stayed up all night as a result. Yes, this cost me additional money.

When I contacted Adobe, actually India again, they still couldn't fix it. In the end, they had to use the hidden "challenge question" option, which is the technical equivalent of duct tape and bailing wire. It works, but it can happen again. Any attempt at reinstalling doesn't work because they couldn't straighten out how to properly deactivate the install, allowing a reinstall. Seriously?

I finally circumvented India and got to an American in CA. I raised hell, and explained that while I could appreciate their concerns over piracy, that any seatbelt that ends up strangling the legitimate driver of the car was unacceptable. The CS6 problem still isn't fixed. I made it clear that this experience would prevent me from ever exposing myself to their recently announced CC. My contention was that with a monthly validation requirement, that this problem could be a monthly occurrence in CC. BTW, if you followed the avalanche of posts against CC, you'll see that this issue was raised by thousands of people.

Last week when they called, begging me to use CC (I go back to .8 beta on many Adobe apps, and own a lot of registered copies of their software), I reiterated my story, and my concerns that this problem could be a monthly occurrence in CC. He told me that they were working on that, and that they were considering extending the grace period further. I asked him how that would help? How would I know when it determined that I wasn't valid, so I would know I had a problem? What assurances did he have that it could be fixed quickly... since CS6 still isn't fixed after over a year? I got no assurances... only statements like the one you're espousing Walter.

If you're happy with blanket statements, without any proof or assurances, run with with it. I wish you all the success in the world, and truly hope you are right. I'd like to be wrong this time. Still, why is it that I have a sinking feeling... oh, that's the voice of experience I hear in my head...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 5:53:46 pm

[Mitch Ives] "If you're happy with blanket statements, without any proof or assurances, run with with it. I wish you all the success in the world, and truly hope you are right. I'd like to be wrong this time. Still, why is it that I have a sinking feeling... oh, that's the voice of experience I hear in my head..."

Fair enough, Mitch. You understandably want to eliminate every risk you can. I can't argue with that -- but speaking for myself, I don't think I can realistically eliminate all these risks from my business, so I ultimately choose to trust that the companies I do business with will do what they say.

I'm a long-term Adobe customer, too, and I've been on Creative Cloud since the CS6 cycle. It's been flawless for me so far. Honestly, I am more worried about severe weather knocking out my power for a few days than I am about losing time to a Creative Cloud activation problem.

I am not trying to argue with you or say that you're wrong. I just think that the risk levels here are subjective and that while Adobe has taken steps like the grace period to try to mitigate them, we must each decide what we can tolerate.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 6:03:11 pm

[Walter Soyka] " I am more worried about severe weather knocking out my power for a few days than I am about losing time to a Creative Cloud activation problem."

This picture, is then accurate for what it might look like if people stole your Adobes's *(pronounced Adobes Is) near you:

http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/10/adobe-source-code-and-customer-data...



Also, is the source code more valuable or the account info?



*edit


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 6:10:08 pm

Here's an interesting "what if" based on that descriptions in that article. Let's say the customer CC theft was simply a by-product or a smoke screen. That the real target was source code. Why? Well one possibility is to inject a vulnerability into a version that would then be sold as pirated software. Pirated by users - precisely because of avoidance of the Cloud subscription model. Now the hackers effectively have placed a back door into every computer running the counterfeit software. Hmm...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Lawrence
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 6:28:04 pm

[Oliver Peters] "That the real target was source code. Why? Well one possibility is to inject a vulnerability into a version that would then be sold as pirated software. Pirated by users - precisely because of avoidance of the Cloud subscription model. Now the hackers effectively have placed a back door into every computer running the counterfeit software. Hmm..."

Agree that the source code is a pretty big deal and could lead to all sorts of mischief.

If hackers really want to mess with Adobe, another malware target is the authentication server. Imagine a virus that reverts CC software to trial mode and marks it expired. Totally possible and totally the kind of thing hackers do for lulz.

Not saying it will happen, but just as much a concern as compromised passwords and credit card info. Source code gives hackers everything they need to use Adobe's DRM as a weapon.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
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Mitch Ives
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 5, 2013 at 3:21:44 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I am not trying to argue with you or say that you're wrong. I just think that the risk levels here are subjective and that while Adobe has taken steps like the grace period to try to mitigate them, we must each decide what we can tolerate."

Absolutely agree.

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Neil Sadwelkar
Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 7, 2013 at 2:27:54 am

This has nothing to do with India.

There are stupid people everywhere. I live and work in India and often visit the US. I haven't still been able to resolve some issue with my AT&T phone and Verizon phone. And I have had to deal with stores in the US with executives who just bumble along with no clear solution to my issues.

I don't blame the US for that. I simply blame some stupid people and stupid policies that these companies use, for billing.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Mitch Ives
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 7, 2013 at 3:34:33 pm

[Neil Sadwelkar] "This has nothing to do with India.

There are stupid people everywhere. I live and work in India and often visit the US. I haven't still been able to resolve some issue with my AT&T phone and Verizon phone. And I have had to deal with stores in the US with executives who just bumble along with no clear solution to my issues.

I don't blame the US for that. I simply blame some stupid people and stupid policies that these companies use, for billing."


It's an American product, an American company, and when you have a significant problem you should be able to address it directly with them. Having to call India where their hands are tied... they're reading prompts off the screen and cannot help you is the problem.

Imagine an Indian product where people in Texas were reading off the screen and had no power to fix the issue. Same problem...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Dave Gage
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 7, 2013 at 8:47:36 pm

[Mitch Ives] "It's an American product, an American company, and when you have a significant problem you should be able to address it directly with them. Having to call India where their hands are tied... they're reading prompts off the screen and cannot help you is the problem."

I agree 100%. I use Adobe Connect and the support in India is horrendous. When I move off of Connect to GoToMeeting or something else, it will be the last time I use anything made by Adobe. They have wasted massive amounts of my time.

Dave


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 8, 2013 at 1:48:46 am

I've begun work with Adobe India to help promote CC in India and Asia

Would you mind if I were to link to this feed back about support? Not sure it will change much though, because as I've gathered from your comments, the people handling phone support here don't necessarily have any kind of editing background and are just following some kind of a script.

Which is why we have the Creative Cow, I guess;-)

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 1:54:22 pm

[Mitch Ives] "and that I was convinced that anybody who might have been considering it, has wisely backed away from it."

Doubtful. Many companies are adding subscription (or support service contract) models as an additional option, but not necessarily whole hog, like Adobe. Apple, Microsoft, Avid, Quantel and Autodesk have been doing this for a while at the enterprise level.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mitch Ives
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 2:30:38 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Doubtful. Many companies are adding subscription (or support service contract) models as an additional option, but not necessarily whole hog, like Adobe. Apple, Microsoft, Avid, Quantel and Autodesk have been doing this for a while at the enterprise level."

What occurs in the enterprise market doesn't mean it'll fly in the individual market. Gee, insurance comes to mind... IT contracts... I could on longer than Ted Cruz on this subject...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Phil Hoppes
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 2:56:05 pm

Do what works for you. Simply because CC, subscription or having your cc on file does not work for you does not make it bad. Speaking of having a CC on file, how is having an account at Adobe any different than having your CC on file with your web hosting company? You have a web site. I'm more than betting your hosting company has your cc on file and charges you once a year. Same goes for you domain registrar. Same goes for a host of other on line services.


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Mitch Ives
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 3:25:42 pm

[Phil Hoppes] "Speaking of having a CC on file, how is having an account at Adobe any different than having your CC on file with your web hosting company? You have a web site. I'm more than betting your hosting company has your cc on file and charges you once a year. Same goes for you domain registrar. Same goes for a host of other on line services."

You'd be wrong about that too. I have all of that set up manually, with no auto renews. I also don't allow them to keep the info on file. I handle every renewal manually, and usually by phone. That's becoming a requirement for safe business practices now.

Of course, with the Obamacare requirements that you share every single scrap of personal information, that then gets shared with god only knows who, I suppose any attempt at securing your personal information will probably be futile...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 4:06:48 pm

[Mitch Ives] " handle every renewal manually, and usually by phone."

Which they store in their own internal database, whether you want them to or not.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mitch Ives
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 4:16:32 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Which they store in their own internal database, whether you want them to or not."

Do you work there? That's old school business thinking. Things have changed.

BTW I have friends that do. They tell me that anyone who auto renews gets stored. Those that check the box saying not to store, or who request it over the phone, do not. Like many these days, they've been hacked recently, and aren't interested in storing anything they don't have to. It's bad PR. Ask Zappos, their business hasn't recovered since everyone's credit card info was stolen.

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 4:22:02 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Do you work there? That's old school business thinking. Things have changed."

No, I don't. But if you say so. I just feel that believing your info is ever truly safe or secret is being unrealistic. The only safety - sort of - is in the anonymity of the sheer mass of info. So control your purchases with limited, controllable, disposable CCs.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mitch Ives
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 4:30:57 pm

[Oliver Peters] "No, I don't. But if you say so. I just feel that believing your info is ever truly safe or secret is being unrealistic. The only safety - sort of - is in the anonymity of the sheer mass of info. So control your purchases with limited, controllable, disposable CCs."

Well said. It seems you and Bill agree on that, and I think I'm convinced to join you...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 5, 2013 at 4:57:45 am

[Mitch Ives] "You'd be wrong about that too. I have all of that set up manually, with no auto renews. I also don't allow them to keep the info on file. I handle every renewal manually, and usually by phone. That's becoming a requirement for safe business practices now. "

I'll just come out and say it. In this day and age, what's so horrible about your CC number getting stolen? I've had my CC number stolen 3 times in 4 years by CC skimmers (no cyber-theft involved) and each time the bank alerts me to the suspicious charges (usually via text), I confirm they are fraudulent (so I'm not on the hook for them), my CC is frozen and I get a new card the next day via FedEx. Fine, steal my CC number. No skin off my nose (other than having to re-do all my auto renewals).

What I'm more worried about is someone taking over my email account or getting their hands on things that will allow them to easily steal my identity. A massive, global corporation I used to work for had their HR servers hacked. Now *that's* a truck load of info that can royally screw up someone's life.

Mitch, I'm sure your bank has all your info sitting on a Internet attached server somewhere. ;)




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Mitch Ives
Re: Adobe Security breach- 2.9 million user accounts affected.
on Oct 5, 2013 at 3:28:38 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I'll just come out and say it. In this day and age, what's so horrible about your CC number getting stolen? I've had my CC number stolen 3 times in 4 years by CC skimmers (no cyber-theft involved) and each time the bank alerts me to the suspicious charges (usually via text), I confirm they are fraudulent (so I'm not on the hook for them), my CC is frozen and I get a new card the next day via FedEx. Fine, steal my CC number. No skin off my nose (other than having to re-do all my auto renewals).

What I'm more worried about is someone taking over my email account or getting their hands on things that will allow them to easily steal my identity. A massive, global corporation I used to work for had their HR servers hacked. Now *that's* a truck load of info that can royally screw up someone's life.

Mitch, I'm sure your bank has all your info sitting on a Internet attached server somewhere. ;)"


I've had the same issue but only with CapitalOne. I usually find out after the card doesn't work. I was traveling once, that was a pain. Sounds like you get a replacement a bit quicker than most of us.

Agreed, the identity thing is the real serious part.

The info will always be somewhere, which is why the best you can do is to eliminate having it anywhere that you can avoid. Minimizing risk is the best you can achieve... there are no guarantees. I still use cash because cash doesn't report everything you do and it keeps your Inbox and mailbox a bit less crowded. Soon this government will probably try to discourage that...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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