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Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?

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Aindreas Gallagher
Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 2:28:19 pm

At the supermeet in Amsterdam, Jordan went to great lengths to talk about how how wasn't proselytizing for any one piece of software, and then went on to completely mis-characterise FCPX's role in the phantom miracle 100 million dollar movie with no name, currently shooting in premier location Bulgaria.

In the video, at the top, He repeatedly referred to speaking to the "Film's" editor, FCPX's role cutting a 100 million dollar film. That's fine except for the fact that he is deliberately making all that up. He's selling shinola.

FCPX is cutting EPKs for that film. Its cobbling together cuts and BTS.

to quote mestman's article "you find out that your system is immediately going to be put to use editing EPKs for a major motion picture, and eventually handle editorial for that studio’s films moving forward."

See how carefully qualified that statement is? Mestman sticks in this crazy "eventually in the future it will cut the nameless studio's films" hail mary bit at the end.
Overall the article is kind of funny - Mestman is so ragingly desperate to oversell the entire situation, complete with evil avid people laughing and pointing at X that it reads as much as FCPX Koolaid as anything else out there, but it's kind of disappointing to see Larry and the rest of the training carny circus jump so eagerly all over it.

Oh Larry... I am dissapoint.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Marcus Moore
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 3:12:18 pm

Aindreas- I'm not sure you know the whole picture.

In the presentation Larry says he spoke with both Sam Mestman AND film's editor. Two separate people.

Things could have changed or progressed since then, and maybe FCPX's role in the film has expanded based on the production's experience so far.

I think that's just as, if not more likely than him intentionally misrepresenting the situation.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 3:29:02 pm

I just re-watched it - he says cutting a 100 million dollar feature. "A new feature, after six months testing they decided to go with FCPX..." then he says "I spoke to the film's editor and he spoke to me about why they decided to go with FCPX because of the utilities available for it"

I find it odd that Larry had that conversation with the film's editor, because Mestman acknowledges himself that X is not cutting this 100 million dollar feature in his own article. It is cutting EPKs.

Larry never mentions the fact that its not cutting the feature - Mestman gets rid of that point in a sentence too. mestman was not sent in there to prep the film's edit infrastructure, he was sent in there to prep the EPK BTS below the line stuff setup - that's a completely different ballpark, with a different assigned budget. It's perfect for X as an inexpensive, powerful, fast turnaround tool.

It may sound carpy on my part, but there seems to be some wilful misinterpretation going on. It's not a knock on X - he demo's some great features later.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Marcus Moore
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 3:50:05 pm

Yes. I re-watched it too before commenting. It's a bit foggy.

I've inquired elsewhere to see if I can get some further clarification.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 4:00:29 pm

Foggy nothing - he refers back to X and cutting 100 million dollar films later on towards the close too - if Jordan spoke to mestman and the films editor, its hard to understand how he didn't know the film was not being cut on X.

One other point - in the original Mestman quote he states that eventually all that studios features would be cut on X going forward - presumably now based on its performance as a below the line EPK cutter in bulgaria - Larry Jordan then clarifies it to say that they are talking about one of the big six Hollywood studios. the quote goes -

"and eventually handle editorial for that studio’s films moving forward."

So - the real headline here should surely be "FOX/Paramount/Warners enters into formal roadmap to somehow insist to various directors and editors that eventually all this studios films will be cut on FCPX"

that is, if this is all completely on the level. Which I'm sure it totally is - maybe Mestman can pop in clear up FCPXs role, Larry's understanding of it, and the studios commitment to it as "their" editing system going forward.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jim Hines
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 3:24:12 pm

The old apple tree is suffering from excessive crown suckering.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 4:07:09 pm

Sam Mestman mentioned that he was about to do a system for an upcoming feature (not the one FCPX is being used for EPKs on) that would likely be the first major feature cut with FCPX.

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/1225-fcp-x-in-bulgaria-a-new-definitio...
,,,
When I get off the plane, I’ll be staying in New York for a couple days, and then I’ll be immediately flying out to get off the ground the first major U.S. studio feature film to be cut entirely in FCP X (at least the first that I’m aware of).




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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 4:20:38 pm

Yes but Craig, according to Mestman he's already got a commitment from the Bulgaria 100 million dollar shooting major six Studio that FCPX will:
"...eventually handle editorial for that studio’s films moving forward."

Forget one film Craig - Mestman already has one of the major six movie studios fundamentally editorially committed to X for its studio output going forward.

I look forward to this bombshell hitting Variety imminently.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig Seeman
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 5:21:17 pm

Although Larry did seem to be referring to a single production as Mestman in the article. There's "eventually" and there's what's happening now (supposedly).

Larry mentions on his blog
http://www.larryjordan.biz/app_bin/wordpress/archives/2417

There were two people I want to mention specifically who shared their thoughts with me for this presentation:

Sam Mestman, Chief Workflow Architect for Lumaforge
Mike Fernandes, Post-Production Manager for NBC/Universal
Sam is currently working on an unannounced feature film with about a $100 million production budget. The producers, director and editorial team spent six months researching what software to use for post-production. They choose Final Cut Pro X, because of some of the tools I’ll show you later in this presentation.


So he did talk to Mestman and this is not the EPK setups Mestman wrote about in the FCPCO article.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 6:14:54 pm

[Craig Seeman] Larry Jordan: "Sam is currently working on an unannounced feature film with about a $100 million production budget. The producers, director and editorial team spent six months researching what software to use for post-production. They choose Final Cut Pro X, because of some of the tools I’ll show you later in this presentation.

So he did talk to Mestman and this is not the EPK setups Mestman wrote about in the FCPCO article.
"


Not to beat a dead horse here but Larry is referring to exactly the same production that mestman outlines at fcp.co. It is the EPK job. they are both talking about exactly the same job. A job where FCPX is - specifically - assigned to cut the EPK material for that $100 million dollar production in process?
Its producing below the line marketing materials. Its not being used to edit the film. read Larry's line again:

"an unannounced feature film with about a $100 million production budget. The producers, director and editorial team spent six months researching what software to use for post-production."

tell me that doesn't read as X being nominated as the editing platform for that film.

Mestman again:

..."your system [FCPX] is immediately going to be put to use editing EPKs for a major motion picture, and eventually handle editorial for that studio’s films moving forward."
the real part of that sentence is what FCPX is assigned to do on that production: cut EPKs, marketing materials.

Now tell me that reading Larry's take on it isn't quite likely to make you draw the conclusion that X is cutting that film.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig Seeman
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 7:04:05 pm

I think Larry is referring to the project Mestman is about to start. That they are both $100 Million films may make it confusing.

In the article
Anyway, that’s what the last two weeks of my life looked like. I’m writing this on the plane ride back from Bulgaria.

So he's not currently working on the EPK project. The article was written after that was completed. Given his "couple of days' stopover in NY, he was on to his next project (current project) at the start of IBC.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 7:28:26 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I think Larry is referring to the project Mestman is about to start. "

nope. he's not.

For starters, there is no editor and prod crew for him to talk to about why they made the decision, in the past, to adopt X - when in the article mestman makes it clear that he is basically taking a meeting in NY to discuss X's involvement on another film in the future.

Larry is referring to the 100 million dollar production that mestmans article refers to - they both cite that it isn't officially named yet and everything, Larry makes a gag about it at the supermeet - larry also refers to the fact that there was a long run up to the decision to nominate X - again - mestman clearly stated that he was going to attend an initial meeting about another film in a couple of weeks. not six months ago.

i don't see how larry can be talking about the film mestman is in preliminary talks about, when he's talking about decisions made to employ X six months ago.

there kind of is no getting around it craig. you can only think that larry jordan was weirdly mis-informed about X's role in the production, such that he repeatedly referred to it as the nominated editing system for post production on the mystery 100 million dollar film from one of the hollywood majors.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Shane Ross
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 4:51:53 pm

Larry might be confused. Been known to happen. I've been confused on occasion too...publically...on stage. Not fun.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bill Davis
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 8:45:44 pm

[Shane Ross] "Larry might be confused. Been known to happen. I've been confused on occasion too...publically...on stage. Not fun.

Shane "


Hey! You enjoy watching people be confused on stage?

Then I highly recommend watching my users group webcast this Wednesday night the 25th!

Jeffery Way, Western Region Territory Manager for AJA will be our special guest with post-IBC notes on AJA's latest in product announcements.

Link at azfcpug.org.

You want confused on stage? Now THATS something I personally know quite a bit about!

Tune in and see.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 8:55:10 pm

I dunno - you were pretty seriously informative on the moviola tagging and keyword piece for FCPX.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 9:11:07 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I dunno - you were pretty seriously informative on the moviola tagging and keyword piece for FCPX.
"


Why, thank you.

Very nice of you to say so.

(blush)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 9:49:27 pm

[Bill Davis] "Very nice of you to say so."

what have we come to? ;)

honestly, that was a flat out handy watch. I got tagging quite a bit better.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 5:32:58 pm

I get the fussing over the blurriness.

And, of course, no Studio is going to dictate that all their products be cut with any particular NLE from this day forth, because it just doesn't work that way. Projects of that size are loose affiliations of companies, both internal and external, and the production tools, from choice of camera to choice of NLE, are the provence of the production, itself. In general, no one is going to tell an editor on any A level film what they have to use. So, that's just some odd misstatement.

To play devil's advocate, though: Maybe there actually are significant, powerful changes in this next X, which is Larry's other recent odd, unsubstantiated blurb. And maybe there is something going on behind the scenes that we can't see.

And maybe it is smoke and mirrors. I've never met him, but from what I know of him, and the little correspondence I've had with him, I like Larry a lot. He seems like a great guy, so I'm going to side with there's something there I can't see, and not worry too much about it. If it turns out that he's misinformed, oh, well. But I don't see anything nefarious here.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 5:46:30 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Maybe there actually are significant, powerful changes in this next X, which is Larry's other recent odd, unsubstantiated blurb. And maybe there is something going on behind the scenes that we can't see. "

While this is all quite likely and there will certainly be updated features in 10.x, Larry also states not having any advanced knowledge. Methinks he knows just about the same information (plus a few dropped hints from insiders) as do those of us who drop into this forum.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 5:54:39 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Methinks he knows just about the same information (plus a few dropped hints from insiders) as do those of us who drop into this forum.
"


I'd agree, other than his statement seems to be based on something, whether its facial expressions from this mystery editor or something else.All I'm saying is that I'll give him the benefit of my trust that he's not just blowing smoke for Apple, or making things up out of whole cloth. Even if it turns out that there is nothing there, I'll just assume he was wrong instead being manipulative or lying.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 5:57:54 pm

[Chris Harlan] " I'll I'm saying is that I'll give him the benefit of my trust that he's not just blowing smoke for Apple. Even if it turns out that there is nothing there, I'll just assume he was wrong instead being manipulative."

While he might have been given some hints, I'm guessing that he's simply reading the tea leaves like the rest of us.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Marcus Moore
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 6:07:30 pm

While that's true- I think as Chris suggests he has a closer relationship to Apple directly, so his sources are likely to be much better placed an his information much more accurate.

The was a fervour between the "sneak peak" in Feb and the NAB 2011 unveiling of FCPX. If Larry is being truthful and hasn't been engaged in any way by Apple, then perhaps they're looking to keep things mum enough to under-promise and over-deliver.

Pretty much no one saw LogicX coming- so Apple can still keep secrets when it doesn't have thousands of foreign workers handling the upcoming product.



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Chris Harlan
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 6:08:10 pm

[Oliver Peters] "While he might have been given some hints, I'm guessing that he's simply reading the tea leaves like the rest of us.
"


I guess. But this thread is basically calling him a liar in regards to conversations with mystery editors on Bulgarian 100M films, so that's really what my response is about.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 6:22:56 pm

[Chris Harlan] " But this thread is basically calling him a liar "

that is incorrect - I think he is, perhaps inadvertently mis-representing FCPX's role in that production - it is clear from the original article that X is being used to cut epk's. larry relies pretty heavily on it as an example of X working with the big boys, and he seems to, pretty clearly, represent it as being the editing system cutting that feature, he refers to it a number of times in that fashion, he also says he spoke directly to the editor for that feature, and that the editor outlined to him the reasoning behind picking it - I just think its weird that the editor didn't finish that sentence with "picking it to cut below the line marketing materials."

I think a lot of people have been pretty keen for a Coen brothers moment for X - and I don't doubt its coming. I just think it would be possible to walk away with the impression that X is cutting that 100 million dollar mystery feature from an unnamed big six studio - when, reading mestman's article, it seems pretty clear its not?

all so confusing...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 7:05:18 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "[Chris Harlan] " But this thread is basically calling him a liar "

that is incorrect "


As I said earlier, I get the discomfort over the fuzziness of it all. I think, though, that when you call a thread "Why is Larry Jordan Making Up Stories?" you are casting aspersions, whether that is your intention or not. It could have been called "Does LJ know what he's talking about?" or "What LJ's Saying Makes No Sense," but the title specifically accuses him of making things up.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 7:39:53 pm

[Chris Harlan] "when you call a thread "Why is Larry Jordan Making Up Stories?" you are casting aspersions, "

errrr - mmmmm - you've got me there. Too exposed to english tabloid headline sensationalism p'raps?
Still it is a little odd given the discussions he said he had, and him referring to the film's editor speaking directly to him about the rationale for picking X - a lot of people at that supermeet walked out with a possibly wildly incorrect impression. also Larry banked quite a bit of his piece on it - the interchange and workflow stuff he referred to as being ready for extremely high level work "like I don't know ... 100 million dollar films?" (thats around the 50 minute mark for the curious).

part of his job is to weave some magic - it was a great demo and some of the capabilities were an eye opener, I just don't think it would have sounded quite as cool if he had said "X employed to cut fast turnaround EPK marketing materials on a 100 million dollar film."

anyway - I'm half carping.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Marcus Moore
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 8:01:19 pm

Couldn't someone just post a question about this on Larry's related blog post?



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 8:11:05 pm

can't we maybe just spin it insanely here for a while?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Marcus Moore
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 8:28:48 pm

To each their own...



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Oliver Peters
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 8:37:56 pm

OK, you guys pulled me in. I watched the whole 52 min. presentation. There's essentially nothing mentioned about the next FCP X, version except for two minor comments. So no inside info.

The "$100 million feature film" is NOT the Bulgaria project. That was never mentioned. Based on Sam's description in the article and elsewhere, such as a RedUser, it's a completely different production.

Larry is basically pitching the XML-based ecosystem. Something others have done, too, though not with as much pizzazz. ;-)

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2013/05/25/making-fcp-x-work-for-you/

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/58359

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 8:51:13 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The "$100 million feature film" is NOT the Bulgaria project. That was never mentioned. Based on Sam's description in the article and elsewhere, such as a RedUser, it's a completely different production."

wait - so there is a second 100 million dollar production mestman is citing currently without a name? Because bulgaria is the only 100 million dollar project I can find cited?
And - to be clear - the second one, the second 100 million dollar project, that they entered discussions on six months ago, who's editor jordan spoke to, is being edited on X?

So all of Larry's comments at the meet, do not relate to mestman's article at fcp.co? there is a second 100 million dollar film, that mestman was involved in the setup of, that was greenlit to be edited with X some time ago?

Why didn't mestman write an article about that? Why did he write an article about a hundred million dollar film getting its marketing EPK stuff cut on X, when he could have written an article about another totally different hundred million dollar movie without a name that was being edited, as a major studio feature, on FCPX?

I'm an idiot, but I'm confused.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Marcus Moore
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 9:09:45 pm

[Oliver Peters] "There's essentially nothing mentioned about the next FCP X, version except for two minor comments. So no inside info."

The only comments he makes I've highlighted in my post below

"Larry Jordan dishes some FCPX gossip at IBC"



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 10:11:18 pm

[Marcus Moore] "The only comments he makes I've highlighted in my post below

"Larry Jordan dishes some FCPX gossip at IBC""


Where is this video?


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Marcus Moore
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 10:20:39 pm

Huh. I didn't realize that the one that's been floating around was truncated to eliminate the Q&A portion.

Here's the full vid- He says what he has to say about the FCPX update at 54:45.









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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 23, 2013 at 3:41:18 pm

[Marcus Moore] "Here's the full vid- He says what he has to say about the FCPX update at 54:45."

Thanks for posting this. It all makes sense now!


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James Ewart
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 23, 2013 at 5:01:57 pm

where is the link please


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 23, 2013 at 5:26:26 pm

[James Ewart] "where is the link please"

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/58704


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 8:42:26 pm

fine fine ok - i'll post a question - actually wait - can't you? the fact that I'm running a mad tabloid j'accuse thing could be a tad awkward.

you could just say - some lunatic is posting guff on a forum about your supermeet.

I honestly was a bit uncomfortable watching it tho - he ran a seriously hard sell there. It's hard not to feel there wasn't some attempt to gin up X. I'm not even sure it needed tbh.
Why didn't he say base it off le mans even? That was a pretty big deal and you'd have to figure that production workflow would be fascinating.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 9:09:46 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Why didn't he say base it off le mans even? That was a pretty big deal and you'd have to figure that production workflow would be fascinating."

Probably RIGHTS, dude.

In my little users group webcasts, I spend at least HALF my time trying to sort out demo material that I can web broadcast that won't get me in IP trouble.

For Larry or anyone else to show ANYTHING about LeMans in a world wide demo - they'd have to secure permission to do so. And that's extremely hard to do..

Most of us who do public demos have to mount our own projects on our own dime - just to get content that's IP rights cleared. It's NOT an easy process to manage.

Fun tho, I've got to say! At my next Wed live AZFCPUG meeting - I'm closing with a "show and tell" about a resume music video I shot in my studio for a young local singer who's just started her first year at the Berklee School of Music in Boston - and the whole thing was a fast and furious BLAST to capture and edit in X!

FCP-X Multi-cam to the rescue once again!

The key to my being able to use it in my on-line demo, was getting the performers to sign that release.

And so it goes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 9:13:49 pm

Seeing as Larry is selling training across several NLE platforms now, I don't think his welfare relies solely on the success of FCPX anymore. A while ago maybe, but he's diversified in the last year.

What his PERSONAL preference is I have no idea, and I don't think it's in his best interest to play favourites either. He's has just as many Adobe related posts this year as Apple.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 20, 2013 at 11:09:19 pm

OK - I asked him on the jordan biz blog. mostly relating to his conversations with the film's editor.

It's honestly maybe an issue of what film, given there may well indeed be a second 100 million dollar unnamed film involving X and mestman that we don't exactly know about.
As has been suggested above.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 12:55:51 am

I routinely interview editors for articles, so I can tell you that a lot depends on the studio and production company. If it's a big-bucks studio picture, nothing is going to go out publicly unless it's cleared by the studio's publicity company. Whatever conversation was had is definitely not at a point where anyone wants the news spilling out. That will be later when the film is close to being released.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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James Ewart
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 12:07:29 pm

Indeed... but Aindreas has been on a personal crusade to discredit FCPX for as long as I have been checking these forums so I don't really take anything he writes seriously any more.

Why does the majority of the professional editing community in the UK seize every opportunity to do this?

Some people are slagging it off and migrating back to Avid (ay there's the rub... is this all some sinister pro Avid anti Apple conspiracy?) who have done no more with FCPX than launch it, see the interface looks a bit like Imovie and jump ship.

Maybe Larry just made a mistake.


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Nicholas Kleczewski
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 1:54:05 am

What's silly about this whole discussion is, news flash, narrative features are actually some of the "easiest" things to cut, in any editor. Easiest I mean, in the technical sense. Not at all speaking to the creative here.

Usually mostly cuts, scripted, a beginning, middle, and end thats already been decided, just many versions of that to weed through. All sorts of different departments handling every aspect of the film that doesn't involve a cut. FCPX was ready the minute its XML export/import took hold to accomplish the needs of I'd say 90 percent of big budget feature film editing.

I'm more impressed when people talk about their work making verte' style feature documentaries, or highly experimental films where every trick in the book is attempted. Hundreds of hours of footage, any shot could be the first, any the last and having the tools in place to sort through that mountain to make a compelling story. Thats the world I'm interested in hearing success stories.

Big budget narrative cutting, from a technical standpoint, who cares? The EPKs for that mystery film will tax the editing tool more than most likely the whole feature will.

Director, Editor, Colorist
http://www.trsociety.com


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Sam Mestman
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 7:38:46 am

Wow, guys... for a second I thought this thread was about Roswell or the JFK assassination.

Anyway, just to clarify a couple things. Yes, there are two movies. Yes, Larry Jordan talked to both myself and someone from the post side of the other movie I've been working on (a studio feature... currently shooting in the US and it is not the one in Bulgaria). Yes, that other movie is cutting with FCPX. I'll be writing another article about it for fcp.co as soon as I have a minute. No, I won't be naming any names until someone from the production says I can.

Sorry about all the controversy. Lots of other cool stuff coming down the pike as well. If any of you are planning on coming out to the Lumaforge 4k Unplugged meetup tomorrow, I'll be talking a little more in depth there about all of this... and it's looking like we'll have a bit of a special surprise for that one. We've been working on something pretty cool in the lab today that I'm hoping we'll be able to mention (no, it won't have anything to do with a new version of FCPX).

Sam Mestman
Chief Workflow Architect - Lumaforge
http://www.lumaforge.com
http://www.wemakemovies.org


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Steve Connor
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 3:00:32 pm

Thanks for clearing that up Sam, looking forward to hearing the details on the "other" movie.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 3:17:10 pm

Hey, sure me all stirring the pot here -

So just to clear then, when larry was talking about X cutting a 100 million dollar feature at the supermeet, where he had talked to you and the editor - he was talking about this second totally different one hundred million dollar feature? this other one is in the states where he spoke to you and the film's editor about the decision to employ X - a decision making process that started six months ago, (when did this film go into production? that's not giving much away, can you give the date when this second other 100 million dollar US major feature went into production?) - but so again: that other editor is editing a 100 million dollar feature for a major six studio, you were involved in setting it up, and it is being edited in FCPX?

I keep trying to re-state this more clearly: there basically is an entirely different 100 million dollar feature, that no one has really spoken about until now, that you were involved in the edit setup of, where it is being cut on X, and that's what Larry was talking about? this other major studio feature you haven't written about, not the bulgarian 100 million dollar feature you have written about?

me so stupid, this super confusing.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 5:13:42 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "he was talking about this second totally different one hundred million dollar feature? "

If I might interject, you seem to be hung up on this for some reason. There are multiple films around the world in the $100M budget range. That's not a huge figure for a studio-level feature film anymore. Quite likely worldwide, several of these - not just 2 - are being cut using FCP X. And Premiere Pro CC, too. Because of the timing and how long it takes to get a film out, you won't start seeing any press on these until next year at the earliest.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 5:24:11 pm

I assume Aindreas is just trying to make absolutely sure that his original post that accused Larry of "making up stories" definitely wasn't correct.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Oliver Peters
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 5:50:32 pm

[Steve Connor] "I assume Aindreas is just trying to make absolutely sure that his original post that accused Larry of "making up stories" definitely wasn't correct."

Maybe it's just his disbelief that anyone is using it for feature work. From personal experience I can say it's up to the task. I might be more critical of it than others and it definitely has its rough edges, but in the end, it's just another tool.

Heck, Thelma Schoonmaker cuts on Lightworks. Then the assistants conform the cut on Media Composer to have the proper interchange with color correction, VFX, sound, etc. Kirk Baxter and Angus Wall cut Fincher's films on FCP 7, but the assistant used Premiere and AE to conform the files for the DI finish. We all use whatever gets the job done.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 3:44:12 pm

Well, Larry made up the budget - that's pretty much for sure. he said in reply on the blog that he decided it was a hundred million dollar film by looking at the cast list, and in amsterdam, he doesn't equivocate - its a hundred million dollar film.

he can't say that because no one has told him what the budget is on this other film. Sam Mestman doesn't know what the budget is.

Larry could say one of two things:

A hundred million dollar film where FCPX is producing marketing materials to great effect.

or

An upcoming studio film, being shot in the US, being edited primarily in FCPX.

you just can't put the two together into one super sentence, which is kind of basically what Jordan did.

boom, crystal clear, you can't handle the truth, just one more thing, you neeed me on that wall, you ordered a code red,

and so forth.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 5:29:48 pm

hey just checking is all - this is a separate second feature, that also has a hundred million dollar budget, and its being cut on X - just wanted to make sure that was clear, that's a pretty big deal. As Sam states, for what he understands is the first US studio feature to be cut on X, that the studio entrusted a 100 million dollar production feature to X for "post production" is a pretty big deal, although the editor the director of this feature decided to work with must have been on board right?

I'm curious about the six months of negotiation to use X for post production editing of this feature - that must have been the editor arguing for it you'd think? Or was it sam arguing for it in the six months of negotiations? Really just curious is all - its a pretty big deal?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 7:24:10 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "although the editor the director of this feature decided to work with must have been on board right?
I'm curious about the six months of negotiation to use X for post production editing of this feature - that must have been the editor arguing for it you'd think? Or was it sam arguing for it in the six months of negotiations? "


These decisions are NEVER made unless the director - and possibly the studio - is on board. Remember there's insurance bonding money involved. As well as the possibility someone could get fired and another have to pick up where they left off. In some cases, the director is cool with whatever the editor wants. In other cases, the director has an interest and urges the editor in that direction. With all due respect to Sam, it's highly unlikely that he would have any influence, except in assisting in the testing and workflow set-up. But he can confirm or deny that for himself.

Take Murch as an example. On his FCP films he was allowed to make the decision for FCP, but the Coens had already gone before him. Therefore he had a successful case to point to. When he cut "Wolfman", the decision had already been made for Avid, so he didn't change systems midway through the production.

In interviews that Fincher and his post supervisor had done around the time of "Zodiac", the point was made that their digital post production workflow was challenged by the studio. It was only because Fincher pushed for it - and he backed his post team - that their methodology was allowed to happen.

Part of the equation is not WHAT you cut with. Rather, can you guarantee the product and the schedule that an established workflow is known to supply? That's the key.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 7:58:54 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Part of the equation is not WHAT you cut with. Rather, can you guarantee the product and the schedule that an established workflow is known to supply? That's the key.
"


And the point of all this - strongly emphasized by Larry Jordan's presentation, is that the largest reason X is getting inserted in the workflow of these huge films is that the way it handles XML and Metadata allow for the automatation of hugely cumbersome - and very time-consuming traditional tasks such as double system sync across massive groups of files through Intelligent Assistant's new workflow tools like Sync&Link, that accomplished what used to be days of work almost instantly.

One of the points that Mr. Mestman was emphasizing was that if they can get to the point that they can rapidly sync double system dailies ON THE SET via metadata tools - that may provide the director and the entire production team with exciting new efficiencies.

X has a basic structure optimized to work with metadata of this type. It ALSO has the plumbing via AV Foundation to maintain optimal quality across all manner of source resolutions. So it's not hard to see why it would be an attractive proposition for a movie maker generating a massive amount of very high resolution A/V files on a daily basis.

All the NLE programs are heading this way. X is just one of them. But the structural re-build - and the modest entry price enabling an increasingly global cadre of those with X experience are probably factors.

(Did you notice the number of hands in Larry's IBC presentation that went up when he asked how many people in the crowd were editing in X? Mike mentioned that it was a solid 50% of what looked to be a VERY large crowd of editors.)

Change continues to be the constant. And it's hard to fault much of Larry's introductory logic as to why X is becoming a very important video editing tool (among many others.)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 8:24:30 pm

[Bill Davis] "the largest reason X is getting inserted in the workflow of these huge films is that the way it handles XML and Metadata"

I think you adding 1+1 to get 3. XML in feature film workflows is not especially useful. It's because of IA and XMiL and Marquee that FCPXML can be turned into something that IS useful. FCPXML in and of itself is a detriment, not a boon to efficiency at this stage of the game.

[Bill Davis] "One of the points that Mr. Mestman was emphasizing was that if they can get to the point that they can rapidly sync double system dailies ON THE SET via metadata tools - that may provide the director and the entire production team with exciting new efficiencies"

In theory that's correct. In actual practice, I doubt that it will be. Nothing ever goes perfectly on set, and this process only works when timecode is perfect. Most of the time things don't work out that way. In my experience, the LESS you do on set, the better off you are. The more attention a director pays to what the DIT and an on-set editor are doing instead of DIRECTING, the worse the production becomes. Not true for all, but true for many directors. That's one of the reasons many still like film and choose to trust their DP instead of a monitor on set.

[Bill Davis] " It ALSO has the plumbing via AV Foundation to maintain optimal quality across all manner of source resolutions."

AV Foundation is completely irrelevant in this type of production. Sure, it's possible to finish out of FCP X. But you could do that with "legacy", too. Many have and continue to do it. But at this level, the finishing steps are handled elsewhere. AV Foundation is a factor as more native codecs are supported and because it's not tied to 32-bit QT. But for a feature film edit, it has no bearing whatsoever.

[Bill Davis] "Did you notice the number of hands in Larry's IBC presentation that went up when he asked how many people in the crowd were editing in X? Mike mentioned that it was a solid 50% of what looked to be a VERY large crowd of editors."

Would you expect otherwise? It's a presentation preaching to the choir. Insert Premiere Pro CC into the title instead of FCP X and the percentages in the audience would have reflected that NLE.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 9:18:01 pm

[Oliver Peters] "FCPXML in and of itself is a detriment, not a boon to efficiency at this stage of the game."

So what's your contention here, Oliver. Apple was just too dumb to make an XML implementation that could make editors "happy" from square one?

That doesn't sound like Apple to me. The Apple the world knows has pretty high standards for user experience and product capabilities. So I've got to think that FCPXML is part of an overall plan.

Now that plan certainly might revolve around licensing issues, or some internal vision of future capabilities, or something I have no clue about. But actually, I've come to TRUST them more and more and more over the years.

Even when I imaged for a second that they were messing up my workflow, time demonstrated to me that they had very carefully looked down the road and were tearing up the street to put in a new landscape that I would find superior to the old one.

So I can see your "at this stage of the game." point - I just don't have the same respect for the current point in the game that you do. The overall "game" for the past two years has seemed awfully tired and shop worn. High time for a refresh, IMO. Exactly what Apple appears to have set out (patiently) to do.



[Oliver Peters] "Would you expect otherwise? It's a presentation preaching to the choir. Insert Premiere Pro CC into the title instead of FCP X and the percentages in the audience would have reflected that NLE.
"


Here we completely disagree.

"The SuperMeet" is a show that Mike and Dan have CLEARLY spent huge effort over the past two years "re-branding" as software agnostic - to the point of removing FINAL CUT from the very event NAME - is NOT something you can expect to be full of FCP_X fanatics.

Remember, I've helped RUN those meeting for the past 10 years at NAB. The presentation directly before the RAFFLE is a full "main-stage" presentation at the core of the nights activities. So this could NOT be expected to be a FCP-X crowd any more than last year at NAB where I helped run the show that virtually didn't even MENTION FCP-X from the stage. The show closer last year was the presentation about Union issues for Editors and trying to stop "Runaway production" in the US Film industry. Before that Adobe and other software . No FCP-X in view. So that Amsterdam had roughly 50% adopters is a MAJOR shift from common industry perceptions as reflected right here.

Even if the other half o the crowd was ALL Premier, (which I doubt) it still shows that X is getting WAY more traction than many here would allow.

(Not to mention that the folks there were willing to ADMIT to using X? How weird is that? I guess I have to seriously reconsider my self-identity as an oppressed minority, huh?)

So I think it's a fair contention that this represents an extremely fair cross section of general editors interests in Amsterdam and Europe in general.

I've posted elsewhere that I suspect X is doing better Globally than it is in the Hollywood or US TV markets in general.

And I'll stand by that impression until someone shows me evidence of something different. And this IBC Amsterdam crowd's adoption of FCP-X is support for that contention, IMO, pure and simple.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 9:59:38 pm

[Bill Davis] "So what's your contention here, Oliver. Apple was just too dumb to make an XML implementation that could make editors "happy" from square one?"

Not dumb at all. Merely playing by their own rules and ignoring industry standards or even their own de facto standards for that matter. And one that two years later still doesn't deliver what FCP7's flavor of XML delivered in 2009 and before. And yes, I acknowledge that there might be licensing issues IF they simply bolted in the old modules for OMFs and EDLs. Granted they had no interest in rewriting that code.

By avoiding existing standards, they side-stepped a lot of internal and external issues. But, by encouraging third-party developers to fill in the gaps, the ecosystem services the needs of a small part of the total user base. That is intelligent on Apple's part, but please don't imply that this somehow makes for better workflows for feature films, than when a company takes ownership of the interchange of their own project files according to expected guidelines.

[Bill Davis] "So I think it's a fair contention that this represents an extremely fair cross section of general editors interests in Amsterdam and Europe in general.
I've posted elsewhere that I suspect X is doing better Globally than it is in the Hollywood or US TV markets in general."


You may be right. I certainly see the same uptick of X internationally and even here in the US, as well. Right now it's still for the adventurous editors, as Premiere Pro CC is the safer bet. At least there's more serious interest, with even detractors using it to some level in their workflows - if not as the main tool.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 10:48:53 pm

[Oliver Peters] "That is intelligent on Apple's part, but please don't imply that this somehow makes for better workflows for feature films, than when a company takes ownership of the interchange of their own project files according to expected guidelines."

That is fair and I respect the point.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 8:50:57 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Part of the equation is not WHAT you cut with. Rather, can you guarantee the product and the schedule that an established workflow is known to supply? That's the key."

Bingo.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 12:45:33 am

[Sam Mestman] "Wow, guys... for a second I thought this thread was about Roswell or the JFK assassination."

It's a conspiraXy.

There is no way two movies can being produced at the same time, on opposite sides of the world, involving one you, similar budgets, FCPX, and to top it all, Larry Jordan knows about both of them?

Puh-leeze.

Final ConspiraXy Pro. Coming soonish, perhaps to theaters near you.

In all seriousness, thanks for posting, Sam. I hope this won't be the proverbial "Final Post".


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Chris Harlan
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 1:45:42 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's a conspiraXy. "

I prefer conspiraCC.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 3:05:24 pm

[Nicholas Kleczewski] "narrative features are actually some of the "easiest" things to cut, in any editor. Easiest I mean, in the technical sense."

Well, sort of. While the initial cut is easy, making revisions with a director, producer, etc. involved can get tricky and speaks to the heart of how well the organization is within an NLE. When you get to recutting or fine-cutting a film, that organization - and how well an NLE lets you find things - makes the difference between good response (where the software lets you look like a hero) and stumbling and fumbling. Even a small indie film will have as many as 2,000 short clips to slog through. Overall, FCP X is well situated for this circumstance, though some things are pretty rudimentary - match framing for example.

On the technical side, the primary storyline concept plays well into cutting narrative. It's the ideal scenario for the application. Where the concept gets dicey is when you add a lot of temp elements, like SFX, music etc. There, visual organization helps and that's a weak point for X thanks to the way connected clips behave. The trade-off is that the magnetic timeline concept actually helps in making trimming changes on large sequences.

[Nicholas Kleczewski] " FCPX was ready the minute its XML export/import took hold to accomplish the needs of I'd say 90 percent of big budget feature film editing"

That's basically the crux of Larry's presentation. However, FCPXML is about as far from a standard as you can get. The only industry standards for exchange are OMF. AAF, EDL and CDL files. If anything, Apple has avoided industry standards whenever it felt it knew a better way and could create its own de factor standard, like QuickTime or ProRes. The only reason FCPXML works at all is because third-party developers have created translations. Some are good, some not very good. All are constantly tweaking these to make them better or when an Apple change throws them a curve ball. FCPXML might become another de facto standard, simply due to sheer mass. I doubt it will be accepted as a deliverable at any time in the near future.

[Nicholas Kleczewski] "The EPKs for that mystery film will tax the editing tool more than most likely the whole feature will"

Having done both, I would disagree.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Ben Mullins
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 6:53:25 pm

I've always liked Larry Jordan, I think he's an excellent trainer. I saw him speak at the supermeet in London when FCPX was first released and I've spent the last 6 or 7 years reading his newsletters (I miss his old ones for FCP7). I have to say though that since X was released he seems a little biased towards it. Not blindly so but I think he initially gambled his reputation somewhat on X 'succeeding' so he does have a vested interest in it. If you look at his newsletters the top tips are usually all for X, with a few Adobe ones thrown in. Actually his newsletters are a little more like adverts or flyers now compared to the FCP7 ones he used to do. I still think he's an excellent trainer (I've learned loads from his videos over the years) and he comes across as a really nice guy too so I don't wish to knock him but he definitely roots for X over anything else, which is a choice he's certainly entitled to.



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alban egger
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 6:54:07 pm

When FCP7 was used for a feature film the first time it was pretty much the same discussion. Some were confirmed in their believe others claimed it cannot be used for the actual edit.

I guess if they told Mr. Jordan they tested for 6 months then they did so. And I doubt they test software for dailies or BTS for 6 months even on a big budget production.

The good news is that we are actually discussing if FCPX is used or not. 2 years ago we early adopters got thrown under the bus for even considering "iMovie Pro" as a professional tool. And now we might see this $ 300 NLE getting its foot into the door of major studios with all that comes as a result of that development.



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Sam Mestman
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 21, 2013 at 10:15:22 pm

[alban egger] "The good news is that we are actually discussing if FCPX is used or not. 2 years ago we early adopters got thrown under the bus for even considering "iMovie Pro" as a professional tool. And now we might see this $ 300 NLE getting its foot into the door of major studios with all that comes as a result of that development."

Couldn't agree more with the quote above. I'm just glad to see people starting to take it seriously and look at it with open eyes. I'm looking forward even more to focusing on specific features, workflow use cases, and the actual merits of the program which can be discussed collectively and gradually improved by Apple. Everything else is kind of irrelevant.

Anyway, here's all I have left to say about the studio movie in terms of clarification. I've never seen the budget (not my department) so can't officially sign off on a number, but based on the catering, cast, crew, and shooting schedule... it's no indie, and is on the highest level of production.

In terms of the 6 months of research... yes, it was done, although I came on later into the process, and was only there for about 3 months of it. I certainly, as stated above, was in no position to tell the studio, editors, or directors what they were going to cut with. They chose it because they wanted to use it, and then did the necessary to research to fit it into the pipeline, and are now in production using it as their primary editing tool. I was just lucky enough to be invited on board and become a part of it.

Sam Mestman
Chief Workflow Architect - Lumaforge
http://www.lumaforge.com
http://www.wemakemovies.org


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alban egger
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 12:40:38 pm

Sam thanks for clearing some things up in this thread. I never had doubt FCPX could be used to edit a major production. I know there are features especially in AVID that make sense for these guys, but the overall experience from dailies through the edit and all the way to XML-grading support is just unique in FCPX.

Having said that I understand there are a few details missing, but there are big chunks missing with the other NLEs just as well.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 3:37:17 pm

[Sam Mestman] "Anyway, here's all I have left to say about the studio movie in terms of clarification. I've never seen the budget (not my department) so can't officially sign off on a number, but based on the catering, cast, crew, and shooting schedule... it's no indie, and is on the highest level of production. "

Cool - I'll just say this - because Larry was selling hard on the stage, and he was positing FCPX as being the same as accepting the future, I just really noticed him headlining the fact that "A hundred Million dollar film being edited with FCPX". And that it was one of the "major six studios."

being honest, thats some headline right? The reason I went off on one was that I incorrectly presumed, given that he quoted you, and he quoted a hundred million dollar film, he was incorrectly quoting your article, on X's involvement in that bulgaria hundred million dollar film.

Basically if you are going to get up in front of hundreds of professional editors, and close by outlining your training deals available, you should be right when you say "a hundred million dollar film, from one of the major six studios, being cut on FCPX."
But that's not right - as you say, you didn't know the budget, so there was no way to tell larry that, and when I asked him, Larry replied to me that he decided it was a hundred million dollar film by looking at the cast list. (?)

So without being coy about it: I think Larry got confused, as Shane suggested. I think Larry Jordan conflated the hundred million dollar film where X was cutting marketing materials with the other film where he knew nothing about the budget, where X was in fact being used to cut it.
Unless this other one is set on mars and stars brad pitt or something.

I didn't mean to make quite such a big deal out of this, its just that the supermeet is a bit of a sell, for the people presenting to some degree, and for the products represented - being able to attach both to "a hundred million dollar film being edited with FCPX" probably sounds awfully attractive, but maybe Larry shouldn't have said that, because he wasn't in a position to say it? Given neither you nor he actually know the film budget?

And that's the last from me on this. Way more pot stirring from the cheap seats than I intended.
Larry should probably confirm the budget, or pull the hundred million dollar quote from his blog tho - it looks bad.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Ewart
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 4:26:30 pm

Does it really matter exactly what the budget is?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 4:47:44 pm

no look, it really doesn't and that's not the point:

the point surely is that you can't just decide to make up a budget that sounds cool when no one has told you the budget and repeat it in your presentations and stick it on your blog. tell me that's not a little bit off.

Even on the 33 minute mark, he starts by saying that he talked to the FCPX editor for the film, and that they just started handling dallies, and that they were getting them synced and put together with philip hodgetts link software in twenty minutes, and that "the avid people had been working on it for a week and a half".

What Avid people? I thought this was the US feature where its FCPX?
see there, larry is actually quoting from mestman's article about the other film where FCPX is not editing it: from mestman's article:

in Sync N Link X... in one afternoon.. we got further ahead processing footage in FCP X than the entire Avid Unity department had gotten to that point in a week.

See what I mean? its pretty foggy no? he's talking about speaking to the mystery US based FCPX editor about how fast the rushes are being processed, but he's using examples from where mestman was just testing the ability to hypothetically do that in bulgaria , where FCPX was most definitely not editing the film.

Isn't any of this a tiny bit, lets say, foggy?

One way or another Larry got pretty mixed up with two seperate things, to the point where when he talks about the workflow where X is in use on this other feature, he's actually referring to workflow where it was only cutting marketing materials, it would seem?

anyhoo...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Ewart
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 5:52:23 pm

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 6:11:18 pm

ha! good man. :)

Sure james, tell you what - next time I think Larry should really say that the film is a two hundred million dollar film, for proper impact, based on his analysis of the catering lets say, and the director, who he can't name, is cutting the entire film, on FCPX, on his MBP.
that'll rock the editing world to its foundations. it might be a tiny, tiny bit made up but - you know - zzzzzzzzzzz.

Did you miss the part where Jordan admitted that he apparently decided on the budget number from looking at the cast list?
He came up with a very specific number.

I'll say it again - Larry got confused to the point where he was effectively making stuff up on that stage. Considering the amount of play it got, and the amount of people who were directed towards his training materials at the end of the demo, that's kind of not on.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Ewart
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 23, 2013 at 5:00:28 pm

I dunno I understand you think he might have been blobbing it up a bit for his own ends but if the budget is 60 million or even 20 million that's pretty interesting too.

It obviously raised an alert on your bullshit radar which may be fair enough - perhaps he exaggerated a bit or was exaggerated a bit to. But "Making up stories" is tantamount to calling him a liar which is a bit strong dontcha think?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 23, 2013 at 10:32:14 pm

no for sure - it's about time FCPX got a moment that forced way more people to address it.

It's just the way Larry and some other people are going about it that might annoy you - there was another guy a few weeks ago who did a whole "let me tell you about the future, why you're wrong, and why FCPX is the future" infomercial - that was a really annoying video. because all he was really doing was selling his company's ability to effect certain workflows with certain hardware and software - he was selling X that day. not rolling around on the floor foaming at the mouth and seeing the future -

same with Larry - what really really annoyed me was his last line where said that it was his role such that " I really want to have you keep a job" its right at the end. it was really manipulative language, because at the close he was largely equating an inevitable future that people couldn't accept, with an inability to see X properly.

Larry is an extremely skilled salesman who uses intonation and explosive moments to sell hard. he's not a venerable aw-shucks uncle.
the line about him trying to help people keep their jobs really stuck in my throat - that's not what he was doing - he was selling himself, associated products, god you could hear philip hodgetts screaming from the wings at points - and for kicks, he was completely mangling the truth of the "hundred million dollar" film.

he made up that budget by collapsing mestman's article about bulgaria, with mestman's end statement that there actually was a film on production with X.

Flat out I don't think Larry was confused at all. I did ask him some stuff on the blog, and he refused to accept that he was mis-using the hundred million dollar line - then he deleted the entire exchange.

that said - go X - I'm all for it, I own it, and I'll happily shell out for 10.1 - I'm incredibly curious to see what apple decide to do with it.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 24, 2013 at 3:44:34 pm

I'm curious, Aindreas, if this is a difference in advertising language.

Every year, I have to send broadcast spots over via AdStream, to be broadcast in the UK.

The amount of substantiation that needs to happen on these silly little adverts is astounding to me. It is not like this in the US. Sure, there are legal statements to protect everyone involved, but it is more geared towards protecting the advertiser. On submitting to Adstream, the protection seems to be more geared towards the consumer, and therefore if it is right for the consumer, it is right for the advertiser.

It is, for lack of eloquence, a royal pain in the ass for me and my clients, but I do have the utmost respect for the consumer protection oversight, in that consumers aren't being sold "lies" (big quotes) and there is actual protocol in place in order for everyone to do the best that they can, and prove what they are saying is true.

I have no doubt that Larry would like to see all of his constituents gainfully employed. His livelihood sort of depends on it, don't you think? I don't think he is lying. He also makes a living on demoing software, software that he himself does not create or sell. Anyone who is self-employed is automatically a salesman. Like it or not, they have to be. His website is larryjordan.biz not larryjordan.org

Larry is no more lying than when I get an email from a reseller telling me that the product that they have is going to change my post production world. Forever. Revolutionize, perhaps.

Larry Jordan has to sell his services, so what? It doesn't make him a liar.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 25, 2013 at 11:34:51 pm

I'm pretty sure I never used the word lie - did I? lots of posts. I thought I was quite careful about that.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Ewart
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 26, 2013 at 8:26:26 am

Correct you said "making up stories"... and the difference is?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 26, 2013 at 3:58:56 pm

So by 'making up stories', you mean not telling the truth?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 26, 2013 at 6:08:24 pm

you said it - not me.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Ewart
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 6:00:39 pm

...and Aindreas aren't you the guy who got all chippy and snotty with Craig Slattery when he was posting about his workflow with the Culture show for the BBC?

It was a pretty interesting development at the time. First broadcast show to use the software possibly.

Unless of course you re one of the people who has been shouting loudly from a mountain top that FCPX will never be fit for anything more than a video of Great Auntie's 90'th birthday.

For my part I took the view that maybe those people at Apple aren't so stupid and to watch and wait. For, as has been posted many times before, FCP versions 1 thru 3 were not fit for much and look what happened?

http://www.macworld.com/article/1028695/murch.html

million schmillion!


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 6:27:02 pm

[James Ewart] " chippy and snotty with Craig Slattery" yeah, I was a bit of a wanker there - plus you don't see me cutting beeb docs - he got pretty high handed too tho. that was in the religious war phase mind you.

Seriously - go X - I'm all for it, it feels like nothing can touch that tagging system - besides, I'm just carping from the cheap seats. This forum was heaven sent for that.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 6:45:25 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Seriously - go X - I'm all for it, it feels like nothing can touch that tagging system - besides, I'm just carping from the cheap seats. This forum was heaven sent for that.
"


How's things going in London? Are you seeing any real shifts towards PPro?

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 7:05:03 pm

Sky is taking Pr and CC on for all internally generated brand and marketing apparently? - I was cutting Bradley Wiggins Sky cycling marketing stuff with it out there last week.

No CC yet tho - still negotiating licensing terms with adobe or something.

i'll say one thing that I've started to love quite a bit - opening out a bin into hoverscrub tiles - the bin is elastic with them resizing? You can have a second monitor with multiple bins as big tiles to scrub through - that's really nice for scrubbing for b-roll. It's like a half way house to X.

I'm ok with the marker system too - if you get organised and do markers with durations and write little notes - the marker panel can be a really really nice thing too.

And - he said for the millionth time - the keyframing apparatus is killer - having to invoke the transform controls each time with the little icon in the keyframing section is a bit different.

Given how incredibly fast premiere is advancing - if it wasn't stymied into CC - you'd really think it would start eating up an awful lot of market share.

I can't believe they just went native no render round trip to speedgrade that quickly. that was insane.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 9:36:39 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I can't believe they just went native no render round trip to speedgrade that quickly. that was insane."

That might be a big moment for Adobe, now if Apple could give us the same with FCPX and Resolve....

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Oliver Peters
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 10:01:12 pm

[Steve Connor] "That might be a big moment for Adobe, now if Apple could give us the same with FCPX and Resolve...."

I don't see that happening. It works with Adobe because Premiere CC and SpeedGrade CC share a common color engine. As I understand it, when you apply a grade in SG, this is manifested via Direct Link as an added Lumetri filter effect onto the clip back in Premiere. Lumetri can carry any number of SG grading layers within a single effect. Each application of this filter links back to a LUT that is the result of the grade in SG. For example, if you apply 2 primary, 7 secondaries and 5 filter layers onto a clip in SG, this info is boiled down to a single grade file under-the-hood, which then links to that single Lumetri filter applied to that same clip once it's back in Premiere.

In theory, if you used the Baselight Editions plug-in with FCP X, you'd technically have that same result. For all intents and purposes, that's also what Magic Bullet Looks, Tiffen DFX and DFT FilmStocks do with X. The downside is that there is no real FCP X plug-in architecture, so all of these methods are severely hampered when it comes to performance with unrendered clips. Until Apple opens up some of this to developers, you won't see an improvement. That's why you can't get the same level of performance from a complex grading filter like Hawaiki Color, as you can with the built-in Color Board.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 11:18:01 pm

that resolve editing timeline does look eerily familiar tho. you'd wonder if there isn't a major industry reveal with 10.1 X.

if apple provided an answer to, say, the timeline gripes, say with audio timeline role tag lanes that allow the exact same drag and drop meta data addition as there is for clips dragged to event keywords, while meanwhile also providing next generation direct resolve CC interchange - you'd have to figure that's game on. It really seems like the davinci guys instinctively like the apple guys. they're basically sharing a GUI lunch.

mounds of potential popcorn from the cheap seat there.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 11:29:39 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that resolve editing timeline does look eerily familiar tho. you'd wonder if there isn't a major industry reveal with 10.1 X."

Well... Maybe. I think it's just that BMD's UI designer likes the FCP X look and is copying it as much as possible. I guess he didn't get the iOS7 memo ;-) I've been working with the Resolve 10 public beta. I can tell you that looking at this in any way, shape or form as an editor is a real joke. Yes, you can do some rudimentary edits and trimming, but it's really just designed to conform from a list and then do some last minute tweaking. Even calling it an "online editor" - which is what they did at NAB - is pretty far from the truth.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 8:19:11 pm

that aside - how's it with you? what are you cutting with mostly?

how do you like Pr CC? Given the largely failed religious war on the other debate forum I passed up the opportunity to get CC for buttons off being a CS6 owner.

I'm possibly regretting that a tiny bit. Felt I wouldn't be holding up my end - but adobe really seem to have their adoption numbers sussed.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 24, 2013 at 1:03:46 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "" chippy and snotty with Craig Slattery" yeah, I was a bit of a wanker there "

As I recall, Craig could hold his own in the "chippy and snotty" wanker department. I thought it was all one glorious prize fight.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 24, 2013 at 1:24:31 am

ersatz civil disobedience is the new western drug chris. one does scrabble for a mainline.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Ewart
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 26, 2013 at 8:30:38 am

Fair point!


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Craig Seeman
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Sep 22, 2013 at 4:56:42 pm

[James Ewart] "Does it really matter exactly what the budget is?"

.... Really just how much the Editor using FCPX is getting paid. ;)



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Thomas Frank
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Feb 10, 2015 at 8:58:29 am

He might be talking about the Hollywood studio feature film that was cut on FCPX is Focus staring Will Smith and Margot Robbie.

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/1518-the-first-trailer-for-focus-gets-...



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Bill Davis
Re: Why is Larry Jordan making up stories?
on Feb 11, 2015 at 6:01:38 am

Thomas,

Did you miss that this thread is from late summer 2013?

Kinda fun to revisit tho - with everything X has done since. I think this discussion was long before the BBC, the Honda ads, and, of course, Focus.

Interesting to drift back in time to see what we were all talking about back then!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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