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Looking Ahead to 10.1

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Gerry Fraiberg
Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 12:12:44 pm

Alex Gollner outlines what FCP X really needs to succeed.

http://blog.alex4d.com/2013/08/28/final-cut-pro-x-looking-forward-to-autumn...



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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 12:59:27 pm

It would be really awesome if FCPX had those things. Some of those being a case of 'finally' having them (a decent audio mixer), and in some cases hopefully being ahead of the curve (the whole guards and collaboration thing).

I have a long wish-list, with a lot of small things, but if FCPX 10.1 would have the things Alex outlined in his blog post, I think FCPX would have a very bright future in the industry.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 2:33:49 pm

[Mathieu Ghekiere] "in some cases hopefully being ahead of the curve (the whole guards and collaboration thing)"

Avid has had bin sharing and Unity/ISIS for years, Smoke systems can automatically share projects to any other Smoke on the same network, and Adobe has Anywhere now. FCPX is the only one from the A's without some kind of first-party collaboration feature at this point.

Apple would change the price point for collaboration, but they would have to make a really huge leap to get ahead of the curve on collaboration.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Charlie Austin
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 3:34:56 pm

[Walter Soyka] "FCPX is the only one from the A's without some kind of first-party collaboration feature at this point."

I may be wrong, but aren't all these set up just to share projects? Analogous to FCP X editors being able to work from a shared Event. Can MC/CC (or other NLE) editors work on the same sequence simultaneously?

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Walter Soyka
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 3:48:37 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Can MC/CC (or other NLE) editors work on the same sequence simultaneously?"

Is multiple people editing same sequence simultaneously the holy grail here? That's a very hard problem! At a minimum, you need some very sophisticated locking and conflict resolution.

But I can't imagine what that would even look like, whether for editors or for specialists of different disciplines, to be collaborating on a timeline that was being shuffled around by others before their eyes. It would drive me mad to try to work on quicksand, with constant external changes being integrated underneath me.

Multiple editors can work on the same project at the same time on a variety of products if it's divided sensibly into reels.

Multiple people of different disciplines (editorial, VFX, color, audio) can work from the same sequence simultaneously on a variety of products today via conform/re-conform workflows.

There's always a better way, but I'm not convinced that allowing multiple editors write access to the same live sequence is it.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Marcus Moore
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 4:06:43 pm

Yeah- though it would certainly be a amazing achievement technically, having an individual edit be able to be worked on by multiple editor at once would be at the low-end of the priority scale for me.

For Events, I'd like to see them shared across local networks or remotely via iCloud. With each editor/producer/director able to add metadata which is clearly assigned to them and can be turned on/off via checkboxes. So if I want to see the directors favourites I can, and if I think my Producer has terrible taste I can turn his off.

For Projects (if they continue to exist as a separate database), editors should have access to all projects, but be locked out of ones already opened by another user on the network.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 4:23:11 pm

[Marcus Moore] "For Events, I'd like to see them shared across local networks or remotely via iCloud. With each editor/producer/director able to add metadata which is clearly assigned to them and can be turned on/off via checkboxes. So if I want to see the directors favourites I can, and if I think my Producer has terrible taste I can turn his off."

That's a really cool idea: a multi-user metadata schema.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Marcus Moore
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 4:34:48 pm

Even deeper, it would be great to see database info from Projects shared with Events, so you can see which footage has already been used IN the Event (rather than just duplicated frames ala Legacy).

It's unclear to me whether that type of relationship is possible with the separated Event/Project structure. Right now metadata is all downstream from Events----->Projects. Any Role data added in a Project doesn't track back to the media in the Event. If Events and Projects were combined into a single database, this could solve those problems. Though with multi-user situations the concept of separated Events/Projects ( or Edits) does make good logical sense. If edits were part of Events, the constant database changes while multiple editors work on the same Event could be problematic.

There's positives and negatives to both concepts.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 8:26:45 pm

[Marcus Moore] "It's unclear to me whether that type of relationship is possible with the separated Event/Project structure. Right now metadata is all downstream from Events----->Projects. Any Role data added in a Project doesn't track back to the media in the Event. If Events and Projects were combined into a single database, this could solve those problems."

It's easy, put it in a compound clip and that compound will track back to the Event and it will also change in any Event it is situated, not just the Event it was created in.

I think, as it stands, this is more of a bug than a feature, but it does show a proof of concept,

*puts on rosy glasses*

and it also might be a hint of what's to come and, certainly(?), hints at what is possible between a Project and Event relationship.

I like the separate Projects and Events. It just needs a bit more heft.


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 4:24:33 pm

Hi Walter,

I'm sure it would have its own sets of challenges.

But that was something that was hinted at exactly with the 'Guard' system that Alex found out in the underlying code of FCPX, in an early stage:

http://blog.alex4d.com/2011/07/18/secret-fcpx-xml-multi-user-editing/


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Walter Soyka
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 4:30:01 pm

[Mathieu Ghekiere] "But that was something that was hinted at exactly with the 'Guard' system that Alex found out in the underlying code of FCPX, in an early stage:"

The Guard system there refers to tracks, not lanes, and that same post also shows what looks like a traditional tracked timeline, not the magnetic timeline. It's possible this shows the groudnwork for a future feature, but it's also possible that the sharing system was a scrapped idea just like standard tracks.

I have no idea to what extent Apple wishes to support collaborative editing, but I guess we'll see soon enough!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Marcus Moore
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 4:41:28 pm

According to those who had sit-downs with Apple at NAB, collaborative workflows is definitely on their radar. But whether they'll be ready with a solution for 10.1 is anybody's guess.

As great as these features would be, my personal hope is that Apple "closes the loop" on the underlying concepts. Clean up the timeline. Provide a good mixing solution. And reintegrate a good roundtrip solution with Motion and Logic.

And please, bring back iChat theatre! God I miss that...



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Michael Sanders
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 9:46:45 pm

I've never understood why, with OS X built on Unix - an OS designed for multi users - that FCP has never been better for sharing, or Aperture for that matter.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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Marcus Moore
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 2:10:36 pm

It will have been a year since FCPX's last feature update [10.0.6] in October 2012. That's by far the longest interval since the FCPX launch. This is about the same timeframe for big updates from the major NLEs.

So I'm inclined to think that (at least in part) this update will be more foundational in nature, and not just bolting on of new features. This could mean any number of improvements from UI tweaks, to changes to the Event/Project management structure. Timeline organizational improvements... Logic X does point to some intriguing possibilities.



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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 2:14:05 pm

1 year since the last feature update, and 2 years since inception.

2 years were the intervals of big FCP-Final Cut Studio releases. Very interested to see what happens.


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Eric Santiago
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 2:23:48 pm

With Maverick coming it might be a slow update or a big one.
I cant read the future but the present has been decent with current FCPX version :)


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Nicholas Zimmerman
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 5:39:59 pm

My guess is a big one. Why else hold off on any real features for an entire year. The only thing that comes to mind since 10.0.6 was the added Log support in 10.0.8, other than that, nada. It looks like Maverick will include some power user features (new full screen dual screen) so hopefully FCPX will follow in it's "serious" footsteps. Logic X is probably (hopefully) the best indication we've got on where Apple wants to go.

______________________________

FCP X Certified Pro, Level Two
______________________________


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Chris Harlan
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 6:24:34 pm

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "Why else hold off on any real features for an entire year. "

Because they have nothing in the short term to contribute?


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 6:52:20 pm

I'm anxious to see what Apple comes up with next. I do think some sort of optional hybrid track mode would be cool. I also wish they'd make up their minds with Events vs. Projects - you can really slow things down on a big project if you don't set up your Event/Project correctly - something that is not a problem in any other NLE.

I've been in NLE limbo the past couple of years since X... I still rely on Sony Vegas for many projects, I'm loving Premiere CC and both Win 7 and OSX and have played a little with MC 7 but Apple is always the one with the biggest surprises and let downs - I'm hoping for big things in the next rev.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Chris Harlan
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 7:04:45 pm

[Lance Bachelder] " but Apple is always the one with the biggest surprises and let downs - I'm hoping for big things in the next rev.
"


Oh, yes. Me too. My guess that it will be something. Above, I was just challenging a logical assertion by simply answering the question. But, yeah. I think the next version might be neat. Fun times!


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Marcus Moore
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 7:26:13 pm

As I noted above, I wonder if the reason for this long gestation period means "foundational" vs "feature" changes (at least in part). Apple did 3 feature releases over the first 13 months [10.0.1, 10.0.3, and 10.0.6].

I'm not a programer, but I'd imagine with that kind of turnaround time, you're somewhat limited in how "deep" you can dig into the code. So the features we've seen are ones that could be hung on the current framework: multicam, broadcast monitoring, XML improvements, Event Viewer, RED support, etc..

More substantive changes would require more time to implement across the entire application.

I think there will be new "features", but some good under the hood stuff too. Performance, UI, probably some structural changes to accommodate Mavericks improved multi display support.

'tis exciting.



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Charlie Austin
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 7:35:44 pm

[Marcus Moore] "'m not a programer, but I'd imagine with that kind of turnaround time, you're somewhat limited in how "deep" you can dig into the code. So the features we've seen are ones that could be hung on the current framework: multicam, broadcast monitoring, XML improvements, Event Viewer, RED support, etc.."

I think you're right… Often during app development code gets "forked", so the released version gets maintenance and the occasional feature, while the "new" version is being built. That's probably what's going on...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 7:52:25 pm

That'd be hip.


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Dan Stewart
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 8:37:38 pm

Ahahaahahaahahaha



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 8:55:24 pm

[Dan Stewart] "Ahahaahahaahahaha"







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David Mathis
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 9:17:39 pm

My Top 10 List:

1. Make it subscription based only -- just kidding!!!
2. I like the idea of a hybrid timeline
3. Add individual sliders for color correction
Example: Shadows, mid and highlight for each channel
4. Bring back the color wheel, the box very much annoys me
5. Add curves
6. Allow key frames for color correction
7. The ability to disable connected clips
8. Real three-point editing
9. Bring back Send to Motion, please!
10. Give Motion its X


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Charlie Austin
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 9:24:40 pm

[David Mathis] "7. The ability to disable connected clips"

~ + SHIFT does that now. (hit ~ first and hold, then press SHIFT) Hitting ~ again turns connections back on...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Marcus Moore
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 10:01:29 pm

[David Mathis] "8. Real three-point editing "

Maybe I'm missing something but...

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/tutorials/690-the-basics-of-3-point-editing...

Two source, one program. One source (in or out) and two program.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 29, 2013 at 10:09:44 pm

[Marcus Moore] "Maybe I'm missing something but..."

Yeah, i wondered about that one too… ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 30, 2013 at 12:30:05 am

[Marcus Moore] "It will have been a year since FCPX's last feature update [10.0.6] in October 2012. That's by far the longest interval since the FCPX launch. This is about the same timeframe for big updates from the major NLEs."

Most likely the reality is that at 10.0.6, Apple delivered everything that was originally designed for "version 1". In other words they were out of the "beta". People here are fond of thinking that the features from 10.0.0 to 10.0.6 were added in response to customer requests. I sincerely doubt that. In fact, a comment was made to me that "the clock started last October" - i.e. at 10.0.6. This would mean that anything in this newest version, probably will actually be the features prioritized by customer feedback.

Plus, engineering will need to make sure that it works with the new MacPro and Mavericks, without breaking anything in other machines or OS versions. So this might add to the wait.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Ronny Courtens
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 30, 2013 at 11:25:39 am

I concur with Oliver's assessment.

For our daily editing tasks FCPX already has all the features we need in our shop. Improving these features where required, taking into account what users have frequently requested, would be perfect to start with.

When it comes to new features a (very) deep integration with Logic X and an updated Motion X are highest on my list. This would instantly add a powerful audio mixer + much, much more on the audio side and professional keyframing, simple but effective motion tracking, animatable multipoint masking + much, much more on the compositing side. Most of these features have also been frequently requested by professional users.

I can't imagine a perfectly seamless integration between the NLE timeline and advanced finishing tools like we have in our Smoke 2013 workflow will be possible in FCPX, at least not in 10.1 yet. If we already could send FCPX projects back and forth to Motion and Logic without any glitches, the existing features get improved and we see a significant boost in overall FCPX performance on the new MacPro, I will be a very happy editor.

- Ronny


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Andrew Richards
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 30, 2013 at 12:20:57 pm

I was hoping against hope for live Event sharing pretty much since FCPX launched. Shared timelines are probably much more difficult to pull off, but if done well could be pretty interesting. I was a big proponent of Final Cut Server while it existed, and even tried to build a business around it right around the time it was canned. Shared Events with hooks for developers would bring all that full circle, even if I'm not really part of the scene anymore.

Best,
Andy


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Geert van den Berg
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 30, 2013 at 8:27:03 pm

I thought from the start that the new FCP base was ideal for projectsharing or multiuser editting, but I don't think this is going to happen because the application is built around SQlite databases, these are not meant for multi-user editting, it locks out other users during writes. It seems Apple is fond of using SQlite though, it's used in almost all the apple apps.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 30, 2013 at 8:36:05 pm

[Geert van den Berg] "I thought from the start that the new FCP base was ideal for projectsharing or multiuser editting, but I don't think this is going to happen "

Actual simultaneous project sharing (not just media sharing) is a smaller niche within an already-small niche. Not even most Avid systems are set up this way. It ain't gonna happen. The part they could do better is to improve multi-user access in SAN environments or the general transportability and relinking of files.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Richards
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 30, 2013 at 8:55:26 pm

They aren't using SQLite directly, but rather via Core Data. Core Data has a method for hooking up to other RDBMSes, so it is technically feasible.

Oliver is right though, it isn't going to happen. Too small a niche and not worthy of the very considerable effort it would take. Sure would be cool though.

Best,
Andy


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Geert van den Berg
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 30, 2013 at 9:05:45 pm

Yes but a project and an event are stored as an SQlite database which is open to only one writing user.

Doesn't mean it's impossible to create an application and a workflow around this limitation, databases are nearly always interchangeable. Had they build it using a server based database then real multiuser access would have been possible and it would open up other workflows that are currently not possible.

Adobe Anywhere allows working on the same timeline, but it's not really end user friendly to install and it's not realtime, you need to commit your edits to the server and then some sort of collission detection is done and it requires some heavy server hardware, however I would think that it is possible to create a workspace comparable to Google doc's where you can see who is logged in and see the tweaks that are made by someone else nearly live. (for example a red box on clips which are selected by another user)

Maybe Apple will come with a final cut server product again, they have a server product for OS X too. But the main thing is that the databases need to be stored on a server which all clients can access for this to work.

Mounting and unmounting SAN locations can't be the end of this. It's old fashioned.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 31, 2013 at 12:10:19 am

[Geert van den Berg] "Yes but a project and an event are stored as an SQlite database which is open to only one writing user."

Allow me to elaborate on my previous post:

[Me] "They aren't using SQLite directly, but rather via Core Data. Core Data has a method for hooking up to other RDBMSes, so it is technically feasible. "

Final Cut Pro X does not directly call SQLite C APIs, it calls Core Data which uses SQLite as one of its available persistent store types. There is an obscure class in Core Data called NSIncrementalStore that allows the developer to hook their Core Data app up to whatever kind of persistent data store back-end they so chose. This could be a PostgreSQL database, a NoSQL store of some kind, whatever. They just need a little glue code to get it going.

This is not to say building such a thing is trivial, only that the way FCPX was developed to store project and event databases already has a built-in method for hooking it up to a RDBMS. So from the client-side perspective, the hooks are already there. Building the server-side would be a major feat and probably far more expensive than the market would bear.

[Geert van den Berg] "Maybe Apple will come with a final cut server product again, they have a server product for OS X too. But the main thing is that the databases need to be stored on a server which all clients can access for this to work."

I doubt it, but I'd be very pleased if they did. Probably the biggest hurdle to building the server side of such a system is it is not at all practical in the tidy, shrink-wrapped package which Apple wants to achieve for its products. A complex server with highly specific hardware requirements that is necessarily very expensive, not a Mac, and requires a lot of enterprisey support is not a product Apple is ever going to consider building. The best I think we can hope for is some kind of API for FCPX that would let some enterprising third party do the heavy lifting. Throw a switch in FCPX's preferences and it stops pointing to SQLite files on disk and instead queries a compliant MAM? Could be very cool, but still far too niche to believe it would ever happen.

[Geert van den Berg] "Mounting and unmounting SAN locations can't be the end of this. It's old fashioned."

It's a kludge, I agree.

Best,
Andy


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Geert van den Berg
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Aug 31, 2013 at 9:55:52 am

I think we're saying the same thing. It's possible but unlikely. Name one Apple Pro App which allows collaboration. But I have to admit I did not read about the capabilities of Core Data yet.

I did read some interesting things in the Apple developer Core Data technology overview:

Merge policies.
Core Data provides built in version tracking and optimistic locking to support automatic multi-writer conflict resolution.


What Core Data Is Not
Core Data is not a relational database or a relational database management system (RDBMS).
Core Data provides an infrastructure for change management and for saving objects to and retrieving them from storage. It can use SQLite as one of its persistent store types. It is not, though, in and of itself a database. (To emphasize this point: you could for example use just an in-memory store in your application. You could use Core Data for change tracking and management, but never actually save any data in a file.)


FAQ.
How do I use my existing SQLite database with Core Data?

You don’t. Although Core Data supports SQLite as one of its persistent store types, the database format is private. You cannot create a SQLite database using native SQLite API and use it directly with Core Data (nor should you manipulate an existing Core Data SQLite store using native SQLite API). If you have an existing SQLite database, you need to import it into a Core Data store (see “Efficiently Importing Data”)
.


What I think we'll get though is Eventsharing comparable to sharing an iTunes library. Read-Only.

But of course there are no boundaries for Apple to implement another hook in the app or change databases. If Apple creates something which works for Final Cut Pro X they'll be able to use the same technology or app for Aperture and Logic as well, maybe it is in the pipeline... I have gotten a bit more optimistic again.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Sep 1, 2013 at 2:20:00 pm

[Andrew Richards] "They aren't using SQLite directly, but rather via Core Data. Core Data has a method for hooking up to other RDBMSes, so it is technically feasible. "

There's no need to hook Core Data up to a multiuser RDBMS to enable collaborative features. Core Data itself has live syncing features, mediated through iCloud. In this scenario, each client system would retain a local, single user SQLite store, but Core Data would update those stores as other clients pushed incremental project updates to iCloud. This technology is designed to implement precisely the sort of real-time collaboration being discussed here — User A and User B both have the same sequence open, user A moves a clip, and User B sees that clip move almost immediately.

Shared access to media (which is actually an easier problem) would be handled through a separate mechanism.

Mind you, Core Data syncing is presently considered by many developers to be too buggy to actually, well, use for anything. But it's hard to imagine Apple hasn't been putting in a lot of work to fix it, since it's a key enabling technology for the multi-device vision Apple has for computing. iOS 7 will probably be our first chance to see if they've fixed it.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Richard Herd
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Sep 1, 2013 at 7:22:45 pm

I just read there will be a check box to automate client dispositions to happiness.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Sep 3, 2013 at 3:45:37 pm

[Richard Herd] "I just read there will be a check box to automate client dispositions to happiness."

This is what is taking Apple engineers so long to develop; 2+ years in the making.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Looking Ahead to 10.1
on Sep 2, 2013 at 4:10:04 pm

Could we find out sooner rather than later? A couple of tweets from Michel Horton over the last day regarding the Amsterdam Supermeet on the 15th suggests that FCPX will be on the agenda, even though it's not currently listed in any presentations...



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