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Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?

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Bill Davis
Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 19, 2013 at 9:56:04 pm

Just saw a couple of posts to this effect on another board.

Anyone have confirmation?

If so, it sure sounds like something interesting is happening in the RED universe.

Or not. Who knows.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Tom Sefton
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 19, 2013 at 10:21:14 pm

He posted a message to this effect on reduser.net earlier today.

Seemed pretty sick of some of the critical comments being made about red.


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 19, 2013 at 10:33:06 pm

Tried to access reduser.net; it doesn't work. Everything looks normal in posts, then suddenly "my final post" -- sounds like they've been hacked

Doug D


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Shane Ross
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 19, 2013 at 10:35:35 pm

http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/19/jim-jannard-steps-down/?utm_medium=feed&...

Looks like the post where he announced this on the RedUser forums is now gone...my link for it doesn't work. Looks like the forums might be down. Heavy traffic?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Tom Sefton
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 19, 2013 at 10:54:10 pm

Very strange. I picked it up at around 3pm UK time and the link I posted to twitter was working until 9pm tonight.

Possible hacking then...


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Shane Ross
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 1:25:52 am

It's back up.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?104367-My-Final-Post

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Lawrence
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 1:28:24 am

[Shane Ross] "It's back up.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?104367-My-Final-Post"


Looks real to me.

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David Lawrence
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Gary Huff
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 1:22:13 am

[Tom Sefton] "Seemed pretty sick of some of the critical comments being made about red."

Try saying anything remotely negative about Red on the forum and see what "critical" means.


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 2:29:26 am

Not really news? The RED drama has been full of plenty of hype over the years. He believes he is the creator of a major piece of technology and he is...but not like the automobile or the iPhone.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 11:12:41 am

What is weird to me is that over and over (and over), Red is hyped as film replacement.

I think they achieved this goal long ago, certainly from an acquisition stand point, which makes me wonder why Jim is so "tired" of it. Hasn't "achieve film mode" been unlocked?

Without a gobsmackingly powerful machine, Red requires an offline, online workflow. Most people in the real world do not need 4k resolution timelines, and 1080p is just fine (similar to shooting film, and posting/finishing in SD, which happened for decades). Shooting on Red is not easy. Rarely, without gobsmackers, can you see what you shot on set, you have to wait for dailies. In order to get the best results, you should probably match back and conform from the 'negative'. I could go on in the similarities, but to me, they succeed in a digital film replacement, especially for the production and post workflow. But it kind of stops there when you start to lose your way in to propriety. I cannot create a r3d raw workflow without Red camera footage, at least, not easily. A Red Rocket is great for Red, but useless for everything else. Sure, Red offers many ways to get to whatever format you might need (RedCine X is a fantastic conform tool and should be copied by everyone for every format).

It is for these reasons, and obviously all of this post is my opinion, that people come down hard on Jannard and therefore Red as a whole. It is true, they have and will continue to do amazing things with technology at a decent price point, but there are times when you know you are being sold an unsustainable dream. Red, Jannard, is selling a lifestyle, which I'm sure is left over from the Oakley days, where people were in fact buying in to a portion of a lifestyle. It worked. And then, there was the 3k for 3k hype and and when that didn't happen, it seems as though it might all be a lie, or a lot of smoke and mirrors, which is a shame because there is a lot to like about red cameras. I know, I know, they reserve the right to change everything. Yeah, well, then we as buyers reserve the right to be disappointed. This should come as no surprise as to who really holds the purse strings here.

If you walk by the red booth at NAB, it is ostentatious in a sea of garish. At times, Reduser.net is impossible to read, or at least hard to find real information behind the "Can't wait!!!!" posts. There is no audience like the red faithful, and people think Apple fanboys are goofy.

And then there are the fantastically drawn out hype letters to the loyal followers, which is a repetitive and constant history lesson from 2006 until the present. Years of talking about certain products, and how excited we all need to be about them, and how maybe, just maybe, they will change the world, but you won't know what he knows as he has seen the future. Just wait until you see it. Preorder now.

Mmm, okay, but probably not.

And the lawsuits, the stolen prototype from the ski chalet, the corporate espionage, the culling of information to better suit the borg, the technical problems, the hampered firmwares that were sold on future capability, dsmc (?)...and a flyboy attitude with parts named after weapons...what are we doing here?

Yet, when you put all the shit aside, Red Cameras take strikingly beautiful pictures. The R3D Raw compression and data size is remarkably modern. The metadata color system, once grasped, is easily manipulated, and down right powerful. There are times when all the effort is worth it. If you look at a movie shot on Red, the look incredible. Say what you want about plot line, Prometheus looks amazing. Why isn't this enough? Wasn't that the goal?

I am not trying to discredit Red's accomplishments, there is no doubt that there is hard work and innovation built in to the cameras, support systems, ancillary workflow enhancers, image processing, codec development, and color science. I've dealt with their support team for technical issues, and although some of the frames were permanently corrupt, they got me back on track and stuck it out with me, but I just don't like the sales pitch. Production is a collaboration, and if you've been around long enough, you know when smoke is being blown right up the keister. For instance, I don't really believe that this will be his last post.

I hope he can get some sleep. It sounds like he really needs it.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 4:37:10 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What is weird to me is that over and over (and over), Red is hyped as film replacement. I think they achieved this goal long ago, certainly from an acquisition stand point, which makes me wonder why Jim is so "tired" of it. Hasn't "achieve film mode" been unlocked?"

Once you unlock film mode, you want to beat it. With three stars and a new high score :)

Personally, I wish we could stop collectively fetishizing resolution for a couple years and improve latitude, speed, and on-set/production metadata even more.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Michael Sanders
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 12:50:16 pm

Yes - when two well know DPs (Art Adams and Geoff Boyle) wanted to test a Dragon MX they were told they couldn't because they wouldn't do a fair comparison.

So you make a product designed to rock the world of cinema yet don't want professional DPs (who you would guess you would want to use your product) to review it.... MMmmm.

JJ has done amazing things but he has also been amazingly arrogant and in some ways total blind to how the industry works.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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Rick Lang
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 2:29:54 pm

Michael:
"Yes - when two well know DPs (Art Adams and Geoff Boyle) wanted to test a Dragon MX they were told they couldn't because they wouldn't do a fair comparison."

So much emotion in Jim's farewell post. Takes a while to digest. Maybe he recognizes that it is time to pass the torch to a younger person. At least his farewell note summarized his contribution from his perspective and even if that is not identical to everyone else's perspective, it is how he sees it.

I don't know these DPs and they may have done a fine job testing the Dragon. But we all know there are tests that can make a sensor shine and tests that can make a sensor look ordinary. Obviously there is some history between Jim and Geoff since he felt stung by Geoff. I wish we all had very thick skin and could stand up to criticism, taking away the germ of truth that it may hold and discarding the rest. But that's easier for some than others. Time we reflect on the big picture and not one or two bad scenes since we all share those moments in our lives and hope we are not ultimately judged solely by them.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Ronny Courtens
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 3:04:38 pm

JJ has done amazing things but he has also been amazingly arrogant and in some ways total blind to how the industry works.

Agreed. OTOH if you only go with how the industry has always worked you never will be able to do anything as revolutionary as RED has done. We all know how "established" people can react when they feel they are drawn out of their comfort zones, so sometimes a little arrogance can help to stir things up. This is not a bad thing as long as your new product really turns out to be a valid option for your target customers in the end.

- Ronny


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Bill Davis
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 2:58:17 am

[Ronny Courtens] "This is not a bad thing as long as your new product really turns out to be a valid option for your target customers in the end."

[Ronny Courtens] "OTOH if you only go with how the industry has always worked you never will be able to do anything as revolutionary as RED has done."


I appreciate what Mr Jannard accomplished, but I've never been a huge fan of he RED approach. I suppose I admire his business acumen in recognizing that there would be a lot of people with fake economy inflated wallets willing to pay a couple hundred bucks for $25 worth of plastic fashion eyewear - but making a fortune selling a consumer commodity at a massive margin isn't particularly transformative or ground breaking in my book.

Initially, (and I was a pretty close civilian observer in those days) RED was touted with the clear promise of a "volkscamera" camera with tremendous specs at a wonderfully affordable price. What actually came out of early RED development was largely delays. Plus constant upward price adjustments. And what finally shipped some 3 years of hype later, was a partially complete camera system that had many of the promised specs, but at a price point literally many, many thousands of dollars higher than initially promised.

Now all thats just fine. Excellent new technology takes significant time to refine. And any company certainly has the absolute right to re-consider it's opening price.

But the big problem for me was that the "volkscamera" that I had been led to expect by initial RED team marketing turned out to be a very expensive Movie studio camera for the upper end of the professional class. It was not a camera for me AT ALL. It was a camera for the most patient wannabe filmmakers who wanted ultra high end performance at a great, but certainly NOT general purpose video shooter - price. Which is fine, but this was NOT what was originally touted by RED. At ALL.

I gave up on them, because it became painfully clear, over the loooong painful wait - that the RED company was developing a camera for Cinema wannabees - NOT the general purpose video professional. And besides, the DSLR revolution took place, giving me exactly what I actually wanted. Amazing resolution and picture performance at a truly superb price. Game over for me.

Red gets huge credit for making a superb product for the Cinema makers. Wonderful price/performance ratio. Great R&D and great tech, if painfully slow in development. But they turned their back on the general video making crowd early and never looked back. Over the entire history to date, they keep talking about smaller, cheaper, general purpose videomaker cameras - and then simply never shipping them.

And if that's why they aren't really on my radar any more.

Too many promises - absolutely no follow through below the level of people who need to do many multi-page traditional "above the line/below the line" productions.

They lost me in year 2. That was enough waiting. By year 3 I wasn't even going through the line at the RED booth, since they'd showed me they didn't give a rats tush about my class of shooter.

Somebody tried to put Jannard and Jobs in the same "revolutionary" category. Well... sorry, Red lovers, but for me not so much.

Jobs started comparitively poor and made his bones by understanding society transformative technologies and products in new ways.

Mr. Jannard took a massive pile of money made from selling extremely expensive sunglasses - and decided it would be fun to re-invent a camera for fancy upper end niche moviemakers.

That may have not been the original RED vision - but that's what it evolved into.

Again, there is NOTHING wrong with being great at business. But it's simply not revoluionary. At all.

Two VERY different types of people and two very different business approaches, in my thinking.

Both guys are massively richer than I'll ever be. And I can respect each ones' accomplishments. But I have already spent time talking to my then growing son about the Jobs path to success. The RED story for me is mostly one where a very smart business guy took an existing huge pile of money and risked some of it to make something better for folks who ALSO have big piles of money to work with. Verses a guy who took very little - and by confronting the status quo of the entire wider society - changed everything.

Way different plots, and only one is worth following that closely IMO.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 4:18:16 am

[Bill Davis] "But the big problem for me was that the "volkscamera" that I had been led to expect by initial RED team marketing turned out to be a very expensive Movie studio camera for the upper end of the professional class. It was not a camera for me AT ALL. It was a camera for the most patient wannabe filmmakers who wanted ultra high end performance at a great, but certainly NOT general purpose video shooter - price. Which is fine, but this was NOT what was originally touted by RED. At ALL."

I don't think RED came out promising a camera for the masses right out of the gate. What eventually became Scarlet was originally referred to as a 'pocket camera' that seemed to be a camera for the masses but the surprise DSLR trend ate that market up (and up in smoke when 3k for $3k).

At $17,500 for the body only the RED ONE certainly was out of budget for the sub-$10k HVX200/XL-H1/EX1 crowd but was certainly a lot of bang for the buck compared to full-sized cameras from Sony, Panasonic, etc.,. that were in use by a lot of people (not just the upper end of the professional class). As I understand it so many people bought RED cameras (w/the intention of renting them) that they are actually pretty affordable rentals.

W/that being said, I pretty much agree with you in tone about RED. The endless software updates, the endless missed dates, etc., I just stopped following the developments (I'd started when it was all just rumor and red.com wasn't even up) and figured I would only look back in when/if RED became part of my workflow. Trying to keep track of the near weekly (it seemed) changes to workflow was just too much.




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Bill Davis
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 4:49:33 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I don't think RED came out promising a camera for the masses right out of the gate. What eventually became Scarlet was originally referred to as a 'pocket camera' that seemed to be a camera for the masses but the surprise DSLR trend ate that market up (and up in smoke when 3k for $3k)."

Nope. I'm a pretty careful reader when I'm doing product research. I came away back then thinking I should absolutely wait for this incredible new RED camera thing. It sounded exactly like the camera I should be waiting for. Nothing in the early marketing dissuaded me from that view for months and months and months. The buzz gave the clear impression that it woud be in the sub-10k range which is preciesly what I was looking for to replace my DSR series sony cameras.

The Scarlett was not even on the horizon in those early days. Just this new thing called the RED camera. One thing. Period.

I have to say, my faith took the biggest dive at that first NAB when I saw the early mockups surrounded by a design aesthetic that seemed totally created to appeal to pre-adolescent boys. The whole R. Geiger "claws" on everything bathed in Ridley Scott red light was like a HUGE warning to me. It didn't seem like any industrial design that I would feel comfortable carrying into the gleaming towers of my corporate clients.

I know others think totally differently. But I've always found the RED design ethic tremendously juvenile.

Again, the tech and products have long since proven themselves to be stalwart gear for top end Hollywood. I'm just saying that it's despite what I saw as so many mis-cues along the way.

Again, I completely get that others will disagree with my aesthetic feelings - and that's completely proper. And while I felt the RED booth was always kinda silly - the products, as they eventually developed, certainly ARE NOT.

They're just not for me. And never were.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 9:18:03 am

It does seem strange that with so many great filmmakers using RED that Mr Jannard would be affected by what some other, less well known filmmakers think.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 3:59:34 pm

[Bill Davis] "Nope. I'm a pretty careful reader when I'm doing product research. I came away back then thinking I should absolutely wait for this incredible new RED camera thing. It sounded exactly like the camera I should be waiting for. Nothing in the early marketing dissuaded me from that view for months and months and months. The buzz gave the clear impression that it woud be in the sub-10k range which is preciesly what I was looking for to replace my DSR series sony cameras."

You can carefully read all the rumors and vague statements floating around but in the end they are still just rumors and vague statements. If you assumed that RED ONE would be sub-10k and assumed it would be the camera for you then that was your interpretation of the incomplete data at the time. Others, including myself, made different assumptions based on the same incomplete data. Part of the buzz was that it would come in well below the price of its competition and at $17,500 it was much cheaper than its competitors which were in the $70,000-$100,000+ range.

It wasn't until "3k for $3k" (which eventually became Scarlet and no longer 3k for $3k) that RED ever specifically teased a price point.




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Bill Davis
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 5:07:40 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "You can carefully read all the rumors and vague statements floating around but in the end they are still just rumors and vague statements. If you assumed that RED ONE would be sub-10k and assumed it would be the camera for you then that was your interpretation of the incomplete data at the time. Others, including myself, made different assumptions based on the same incomplete data. Part of the buzz was that it would come in well below the price of its competition and at $17,500 it was much cheaper than its competitors which were in the $70,000-$100,000+ range."

While that is absolutely true, it ignores the fact that while early RED was building their "buzz" they could just as readily announced price targets and given all the classes of their potential customers much better data to determine whether the announced tools would fit their needs. They chose NOT to do that.

And remember when they finally got around to announcing the $17,000 price point, it was for a camera body that had MAJOR parts of the shooting ecosystem missing (audio?) It seems to me that when initially configured to actually function as a camera, the initial RED cost between $20k and $30k depending on whether you could get the parts required to make it work. There were long delays for the appearance of storage, I/O, Lens options, the aforementioned audio capabilities. In sum, the initial three years were a bit of a shipping cluster***. Again, I want to be clear that over the half a decade it took for RED to go from pretty renderings to a functional camera system, they achieved a lot of good things and eventually did put extremely positive pressure on the upper end of the industry to deliver more capability for less cost. But they did that by undercutting many of the companies that formed the backbone of the professinal video industry. Sony is a shadow of what it used to be in cameras. So too Ikigami, and many others. Maybe that was inevitable. Maybe it was corporate arrogance. History will tell.

I'll just note that I know more than a few guys who bet their businesses on being early RED adopters - and they had tremendously painful early years before they could recoup their investments in time and lost productivity waiting for a camera system that took years to develop.

In the end, the camera has earned a solid place in production. It's just that the path there was anything but smooth - and I think that any company that lets their hype get ahead of their reality is in a dangerous place.

Remember "under-promise and over-deliver" - that's still a pretty sure path to customer satisfaction, IMHO.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 5:36:59 pm

[Bill Davis] "While that is absolutely true, it ignores the fact that while early RED was building their "buzz" they could just as readily announced price targets and given all the classes of their potential customers much better data to determine whether the announced tools would fit their needs. They chose NOT to do that."

I totally agree. And the continuous cycle of updates, hype, delays, changes, etc., is why I got off that merry-go-round. When a product is actually done and actually shipping I will read up on it but I'm done following all the ups and downs of development.

Granted for a while it was interesting to see the evolution of the camera and get some glimpses 'behind the curtain' but there is something to be said for the traditional route of developing out of the public eye and just shipping a final product that works (as well as any final product works).

RED certainly forced established camera manufacturers to accelerate their dev cycles but I think it was really the combination of RED offering a lower cost high-end camera and the unforeseen explosion of DSLRs in the lower and mid range users that stunned existing camera makers. One or the other I think Sony, Panasonic, etc., could have rolled with but to get hit on both ends of the spectrum like that put the squeeze on them to react.




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Michael Gissing
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 11:11:13 pm

[Bill Davis]"Remember "under-promise and over-deliver" - that's still a pretty sure path to customer satisfaction, IMHO."

In light of the initial FCPX release that is the funniest thing I have read all day.


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Bill Davis
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 22, 2013 at 2:15:39 am

[Michael Gissing] "In light of the initial FCPX release that is the funniest thing I have read all day."

Why?

I was helping to run the Supermeet and in the audience at NAB for the X intro. Every single thing they promised me, they delivered when the camera shipped. They showed all the new ideas and all the new technology - and when X shipped a few short months later - every single thing they showed was in the software and worked just as advertised.

The negative hue and cry was about whether Apple's new direction was "too different" - and more critical whether it would satisfy traditional FCP-Legacy editors. The answer was clearly that in a lot of cases, it did not. To move forward, they left a lot of folks behind at least temporarily.

But they never once either promised or implied that what they were releasing was FCP-Legacy 8 - so what's your point?

To my thinking they TOTALLY under promised and magnificently over-delivered.

They didn't tell promise me that their new software would change the entire way I approach my video making - giving me new tools that take tons of the organizational drudgery out of my editing. But that's precisely what they delivered to me.

And X has been great from SQUARE ONE for those of us who didn't depend on what it didn't do - or who have come to value what it does that no other software does as well.

Heck, I just got back from a Canon C-100/300 demo - and took my laptop and hard drive, and sure enough, X grabbed everything the camera put out - processed the footage into X's typical superfast thumbnail proxies, standard footage, and regular Proxies and let me get to work key wording and cutting nearly instantly.

It was (and here's that word again...) FUN to cut Canon Log C and AVCHD in FCP-X and have it work exactly like my regular DSLR stuff. No fuss, no muss. And I'm looking forward to a future with RAW Video in my workflow.

So X is still passing every test I toss at it with aplomb.

So I'm missing your point I guess.

Just because some people got pissy when X was introduced - and are still pissy about it today - might say more about their inability to move on from 2 years ago - then it does about the actual value of the software as it is today.

X was a problem on release for SOME people. Heck, it still is for some people. And for those people - there are other options. But it's NEVER been problem for me.

I never did buy that the intro of X was a "disaster". It just pissed off a lot of people. Change pisses people off. Such is life.

It was anything BUT a disaster for me. It was the start of my next working era.

I look on that intro very fondly. It's the day I started making my editing life better. For those who chose another path - good luck. Hope you turn out to be every bit as happy with your choice as I am to be working with X.

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 22, 2013 at 9:07:43 am

Is anyone else sad that it's much quieter than it used to be on here? Thankfully Bill is doing his best to keep the debate going!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Ronny Courtens
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 22, 2013 at 4:20:28 pm

Is anyone else sad that it's much quieter than it used to be on here?

Everyone is too busy using FCPX ((-:

- Ronny


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 22, 2013 at 11:06:26 pm

Bill,

I think the humor comes at the expense of your seemingly inability, or lack of desire, to look at things from other peoples' perspectives. Many of the things you say in condemnation of RED could easily be said about Apple and many of the things you say in defense of Apple could easily be said in defense of RED. It all just boils down to one's own perspective.

For example:

[Bill Davis]
But they never once either promised or implied that what they were releasing was FCP-Legacy 8 - so what's your point?


RED never promised nor implied that they were releasing a camera that would suit your/your demographic's needs.


They [Apple] didn't tell promise me that their new software would change the entire way I approach my video making - giving me new tools that take tons of the organizational drudgery out of my editing. But that's precisely what they delivered to me.


Apple's official press release called the software "revolutionary" said that it "... completely reinvents video editing..." and called it "...the biggest advance in Pro video editing since the original Final Cut Pro," That seems to set the bar kinda high, IMO, but I guess that is the point of marketing.

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/06/21Apple-Revolutionizes-Video-Editin...

And X has been great from SQUARE ONE for those of us who didn't depend on what it didn't do - or who have come to value what it does that no other software does as well.

I'm sure many RED One owners would say the camera has been great for them from square one too as they didn't depend on what they camera couldn't do.

You were upset with RED because they didn't meet your needs even though you didn't spend a dime on their gear yet you seem perplexed why users that spent years and thousands of dollars (sometimes over six figures) developing FCP-centric workflows were upset with Apple of suddenly EOLing FCP Legend and releasing a new NLE called FCPX.

One man's floor is another man's ceiling.




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Bill Davis
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 23, 2013 at 2:24:55 am

[Andrew Kimery] "And X has been great from SQUARE ONE for those of us who didn't depend on what it didn't do - or who have come to value what it does that no other software does as well.

I'm sure many RED One owners would say the camera has been great for them from square one too as they didn't depend on what they camera couldn't do."


You find me ONE Red One owner who, in the first year of deployment - will argue with a straight face that the camera was "great for them from square one."

Good heavens, man. Red Cameras didn't even have audio recording at square one. Something literally every other camcorder ever built could do out of the box. Name me ONE equivalent common editing function that X couldn't do on the day it was released. I'll wait.

[Andrew Kimery] "You were upset with RED because they didn't meet your needs even though you didn't spend a dime on their gear yet you seem perplexed why users that spent years and thousands of dollars (sometimes over six figures) developing FCP-centric workflows were upset with Apple of suddenly EOLing FCP Legend and releasing a new NLE called FCPX. "

Lets be clear. I've never been upset for one second for RED not meeting my needs. The ONLY thing I was ever bothered by was the way RED relied on visual prototyping and a clear public campaign based on "just wait for this - it's gonna be WONDERFUL" to try to encourage people from making other choices while they got their act together. And if they'd gotten that act together in anything like a reasonable timeframe I would be both silent and supportive. But they did not.

Three YEARS from announcement to delivery is not reasonable to my thinking. Heck, ONE year was not reasonable for me. So I moved on.

If Apple had spent the same three YEARS at public trade shows telling me that they were coming out with the next great editing system - and delivered nothing over that time - they'd get the exact same reaction that I'm leveling at RED. And I wouldn't patronize Apple.

Apple promised NOTHING in the last three years of Legacy's life - keeping their council until they had a real product worked out. And delivered precisely the radical change they promised.

I'm sensitive to the real hurt that many still feel about the Legacy EOL. But it *can" be viewed as something like getting surgery to fix a medical problem that's not causing a whole lot of pain to the patient right now, but that you can be certain WILL be much worse in the near future.

Legacy was hurting. And it was getting worse and worse and worse as the entire video industry changed around it. Lots of people wanted it patched with band-aids and bailing wire. Turns out, I didn't. I wanted something better. Turned out to be FCP-X for me.

Look, RED spent 3 years promising the world everything - and delivering little but smoke and cute renderings while they worked out the kinks. And they took REAL deposits from willing customers - who had to wait, and wait, and wait - only to take delivery of a device that needed immediate constant revision and babysitting in it's initial iteration.

Again, show me a RED owner with an early serial number who doesn't have personal stories of nearly 4 damn difficult years of patient struggle.

It worked out well for them in the long run. And I'm delighted their patience was rewarded with a GREAT camera. But don't revise history and say it wasn't a long and difficult run. Many of us were watching carefully from the sidelines and simply know better.

If I'm wrong and you're an early RED owner and were "happy" from day one. Post your experience. I'll listen.

And hey, heres's a pertinent question for you, Andrew ... Are you willing to give FCP-X the same 4 years that RED had to get their act together and see what Apple delivers over that exact same period?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 23, 2013 at 3:59:17 am

You really need to lighten up Bill. I thought it was amusing that you want the impossible of low hype - high delivery. No-one does that!

When Job's said awesome and it wasn't then so what. It isn't a competition to see who hypes less and delivers more between Apple, Avid, Adobe, Red, Aaton or anyone in the biz. I just found it funny that your eternal optimism sometimes blinds you to the reality that Apple are just like everyone with a sales and marketing team.

I know the net and forums are odd places to express humour and have a laugh at ourselves but really? As my wife says, never put your pedestal on a high horse. (that's just general self deprecating humour and not about you OK).


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Bill Davis
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 23, 2013 at 5:42:17 pm

[Michael Gissing] "As my wife says, never put your pedestal on a high horse. (that's just general self deprecating humour and not about you OK)."

OK, but, then how do you ever get the Ringling people to look at your circus act?

(and that's completely and totally not about you and/or your wife!)

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 23, 2013 at 6:38:22 pm

[Bill Davis] "Good heavens, man. Red Cameras didn't even have audio recording at square one. Something literally every other camcorder ever built could do out of the box. Name me ONE equivalent common editing function that X couldn't do on the day it was released. I'll wait."

Dual system sound. Very, very common in the demographic that Red One was primarily targeted at (lots of movies and tv shows have been shot on cameras that couldn't record audio). DSLRs are all the rage now and dual system sound is pretty much a requirement.

FCPX on launch lacked support for tape I/O, EDL, OMF, broadcast quality video out, no ability to open up old project files, no multicam, etc.,. You can't seriously argue that there was not a big drop off in functionality from FCP 7 to FCPX 10.0.0. And I don't mean only functions that you personally use but functionality in general.


[Bill Davis] If Apple had spent the same three YEARS at public trade shows telling me that they were coming out with the next great editing system - and delivered nothing over that time - they'd get the exact same reaction that I'm leveling at RED. And I wouldn't patronize Apple."

And that was a very public, very open difference RED was making. They let everyone know upfront and often that they were designing the camera from scratch, in the public view and actively soliciting feed back as opposed to creating a product in the shadows and only showing it to be people when it's done/nearly done.

If you don't think that developing a brand new camera from scratch is going to have delays and problems I don't know what to tell you.


[Bill Davis] "Look, RED spent 3 years promising the world everything - and delivering little but smoke and cute renderings while they worked out the kinks. And they took REAL deposits from willing customers - who had to wait, and wait, and wait - only to take delivery of a device that needed immediate constant revision and babysitting in it's initial iteration."

All the deposits were fully refundable at any time. No risk, just an opportunity to be towards the front of the line. Better deal than KickStarter.


[Bill Davis] "Again, show me a RED owner with an early serial number who doesn't have personal stories of nearly 4 damn difficult years of patient struggle."

Ask this question at REDUSER and I'm sure you'll get an answer.


[Bill Davis] "And hey, heres's a pertinent question for you, Andrew ... Are you willing to give FCP-X the same 4 years that RED had to get their act together and see what Apple delivers over that exact same period?"

Here's the same answer I've been giving since the day FCPX was released, Bill. When the software meets my needs I'll start using it. Maybe that's tomorrow maybe that's in three years. My feelings weren't hurt when FCPX got released. I didn't, in a fit of spiteful rage, swear off Apple for ever and ever. I just looked at the current state of FCPX, knew it wouldn't meet my needs and looked elsewhere (mainly back to Avid since LA is a big Avid town). I'm very interested in seeing what 10.1 brings, but given that a big part of "meeting my needs" is the TV shows I work on adopting FCPX it will probably be a number of years before X starts looking like something that will be in my daily life.

How about you, Bill? If RED makes a camera that suits your needs and is in your budget would you take a long hard look at buying it?




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Bill Davis
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 24, 2013 at 7:26:55 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "How about you, Bill? If RED makes a camera that suits your needs and is in your budget would you take a long hard look at buying it?
"


Absolutely. And if RED had delivered on the smaller, less expensive announcements they've been making since the Scarlet was announced - I would have gladly looked in their direction - but again, I kept seeing big promises with very poor follow through in terms of having a camera I could legitimately go out and buy and start using.

That said, overall I have to say I'm having a bit of a crisis regarding camera ownership.

I've been shooting - on or off - for more than 30 years now. I con't consider myself a pro cameraman, but out of necessity I've certainly studied the craft, and have been behind a camera for many hundreds of hours when my budgets didn't allow me to hire someone else who shoots full time.

And I have to tell you camera buying right now seems like an extremely confusing crapshoot. At the high end, Red, Sony and Arri and a few others are in a death struggle to re-define the high end for those who can afford big bucks - while at the low end, you push up from the insanely affordable "imperfect but still amazing" stuff like Black Magic Pocket and Cinema cameras, many flavors of DSLRs and even (weirdly) Sports cams and smart phones - which used properly can certainly shoot extremely watchable footage.

Oddly, in my next endeavor, we'll be shooting with single unit Pan/Tilt cameras - something I'd never have considered after all these year of thinking of a "pro camera" for content creation as something that HAD to be hoisted on my shoulder.

I had a demo of The Canon C-100, 300, 500 line last week and remember holding the C-100 (with a $3k T1.4 Canon Cine Lens!) and thinking how weird it was that THIS weird looking squarish block of knobs was a massively better video and audio recording device than nearly anything I got my hands on back when I was shooting with a D-30 that cost literally 10 TIMES more money.

I'm almost 5 years into my 5dMkII and it's been a wonderful camera to shoot with because for every annoyance regarding audio or how improperly balanced and awkward it is for handheld video shooting, I get my shots up in my editing suite - and am STILL regularly amazed at how really beautiful the footage it produces seem to so consistently be.

We think the NLE wars are difficult to figure out - camera choices in the modern era in camera gear are totally NUTS.

And so it goes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 25, 2013 at 12:07:41 am

[Bill Davis] "We think the NLE wars are difficult to figure out - camera choices in the modern era in camera gear are totally NUTS."

Agreed. I did a fair amount of shooting when I was younger (mainly live sports) and I still keep my eye on cameras because I'm a geek and because it impacts post workflows more so than ever. The camera tech is advancing so fast that even though the bang-for-the-buck has never been better it's still difficult to pull the trigger because something new/better/cheaper will be out in 12 months. It's like buying a computer. Long gone are the days of getting a good 5-10 years out of a camera like in BetaSP days.

Paralysis by analysis ad nauseum.

At least w/NLE's it's still pretty basically the three A's.




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Richard Herd
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 22, 2013 at 8:18:21 pm

[Bill Davis] "ultra high end performance"

Not exactly. I often cite this article and I don't mention it around Red fans.

http://library.creativecow.net/galt_john/John_Galt_2K_4K_Truth_About_Pixels...

Here's the damning quote: So 4K is not these 8 mega pixel or 9 mega pixel or 10 mega pixel CMOS images for the Bayer pattern where they add up all the pixels in a row and say hey, we got 4K. The great perpetrators of that mythology have been RED and Dalsa. That's why I call these "marketing pixels." It's intentional obfuscation. Because they really do nothing to improve image quality. They may improve sales volume. But they don't do anything to quality.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 10:20:44 pm

Good riddance - he probably does more harm than good with his late night rants and slams of other companies and technologies. I know a lot of folks like myself that just won't use Red gear because he can be such a bully and a-hole at times.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Santiago Martí
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 4:04:17 pm

I think he meant he will stop posting on the forums. Eventually he will post again, he can't help it. Just two days ago he was at the ASC showing Dragon Epic to some DPs, so I don't see him stepping down any time soon.

I own a Red One MX and an Epic X, I love the cameras. One of the best investments I made in my life. DPs tend to be real snobs sometimes. One day the don't want to shoot digital, three years after, they are shooting with HDSLRs! You don't have to listen to everybody if you want to stay in this business for a long time.

Red's workflow is changing for good, they previewd a new GPU accelerated Redcine, 6K 24fps realtime with just one Titan. Incredible.

Santiago Martí
http://www.robotrojo.com.ar
Red One M-X, Red Epic X, Red Pro Primes, Adobe CS6, Assimilate Scratch


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Eric Santiago
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 22, 2013 at 1:06:17 pm

People can call him whatever and Im sure some have valid reasons.
I dont know any of the big camera/software/hardware makers personally and I honestly couldn't care less.
I purchased a Scarlet (personal use) cause I had tons of experience with the RED MX and its workflow.
The gear simplify works.
Maybe my past experiences with Canon XL-1, Sony BetaCam/XDCAM, etc... attributed to that move.
I didnt stop using that gear cause the originator is a dick.
LOL!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 22, 2013 at 6:35:50 pm

[Eric Santiago] "The gear simplify works."

It took a long time for it to simply work.

They did come a long way in a short time with "zero experience", though.


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Tobias Heilmann
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Aug 28, 2013 at 2:55:56 pm

I can not help but wonder whether there has every been a more exciting time in my career in terms of choices. And due to the overwhelming amount of choices, perhaps also one of the most difficult.

When I look back at some of my very early films in the 1980's (I was roughly 13 then) I shudder on the one hand but I remember the excitement of creating them, not knowing much about the craft of film making at all, but simply feeling compelled to grab a camera an do it - doing rough, manual edits from one VHS deck to another. Seeing those films fills me with pride as the impulse to start making films was much greater than the obvious obstacles at hand. Looking back at those days it seems that my limitations as a film maker were no greater than the apparent lack of quality a VHS tape offered by today's standards.

I remember FCP 1.0 on a G4 computer I invested in. There were soooo many issues with that software but such excitement at being able to sit down and edit on my own terms and my own time.

And after a long road of similar experiences and personal milestones, the Red One came into my life in 2008. I spent many years shooting with that camera, never seizing to be amazed at the ongoing improvements, marveling at the images and everything the camera enabled me to do. Have there been difficulties, problems and glitches? Yes, plenty. Have there been films of mine, which I would rather ignore? Yes, plenty. But not because of the gear I used but because of the choices I made.

But I can not feel anything but gratitude for all the personal growth this new technology has enabled.

And my involvement with this technology and the dialogue with some manufacturers has perhaps also enabled the technology to grow in return. And I have never once come across a manufacturer whose purpose was to create a bad product or sabotage my art. They were all trying to cater to my needs but also had a vision of their own. In the end they were all just making choices. Good choices. Bad choices. Choices that they thought to be good choices, but in my opinion or for my needs weren't.

I don't want to make films in my sleep. I want to engage in journeys that will make my experience here worth my while. There are days I cheer, days I cringe, laugh and cry - both about my equipment as well my abilities.

Is this an excuse for anything that Red or other manufacturers are being faulted with? No. But I also have a choice. I always have. I always will.

And I thank all those manufacturers for giving me that choice - to stick with them for the promise that I sense, or kiss them goodbye when our paths no longer meet. The frustration I sometimes feel when a so called improvement (not to be mistaken with problem fixes) does not meet my personal wishes or expectations is mine to deal with. I know that many people would not agree with me, but my desire for any company is that they follow their own strong vision of the future and it's perfectly ok, when that doesn't line up with my own view. I am not saying that there is no need for dialogue or listening to your customers. But in the end I would rather leave a company and their product for making a bold and heartfelt choice than slowly wander down a path that only caters to my own limited expectations of their product.

Just like any customer will leave me and my company when our visions for their future no longer match. And in my opinion that's the way life is supposed to be - full of choices, sometimes quiet, often bold, ever changing.

Tobias

In Touch Media Entertainment
Munich, Germany


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Walter Soyka
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Sep 4, 2013 at 4:02:42 am

For all you RED fans out there, here's the latest on RED's new 24k sensor:

http://cuttingroomtales.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/unleashing-the-titan/

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Ronny Courtens
Re: Jim Jannard has stepped down as public face of RED?
on Sep 4, 2013 at 7:08:06 am

Thank you Walter for this highly entertaining link. I will spare myself from any comments (-:

- Ronny


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