FORUMS: list search recent posts

AirPlay 5.1 surround

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Jeremy Garchow
AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 1:27:15 pm

Hi.

I'm not quite sure where to put this, so I'll ask here in the editor's lounge.

I've delivered surround on tape and in ProRes. It's easy with six stems.

What I am having a hard time doing is delivering a surround file capable of AirPlaying to an AppleTV.

I did a bunch of failed tests yesterday.

After some more "research" it looks like I can use Comprssor to make an h264 airplayable file, and an ac3 5.1 file, then mux them in subler. That will be my testing for today.

Is there a better way?

Telestream wants $400 to add this capability to my Episode license. Not a problem if I did this all the time, but alas, I don't work with surround all the time.

This isn't FCPX specific, I am just wondering how to make the proper compressed file for an AirPlayed 5.1 playback.

Thanks!

Jeremy


Return to posts index


Paul Figgiani
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 2:31:15 pm

Jeremy,

Try this:

Assuming you have an AirPlay compatible H.264 video file with no audio ...

Pull your stems into Compressor using the Add Surround Sound Option. Use the AC3 file preset. Use Coding Mode:

3/2 (L,C,R,LS,RS). Enable LFE.

Now have Compressor build the file.

Next use Quicktime 7 to open the H.264 video and the encoded AC3 audio file. Make sure you queue the movie file and the audio file at the beginning. Select the audio file window - from menu:Edit/Select All/Copy.

Now select the movie window - from menu:Edit/Add to Movie

Now check Show Movie Properties from the QT 7 menu. You should see the AC3 audio track with the proper channel routing. Save it out. That should do it ...

-paul.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 3:19:44 pm

Thanks, Paul.

I originally tried that, but got lots of crashing.

After your post, it seems to be working a bit better . ;)

Subler works pretty well, actually, and allows me to mux and x264 and ac3 to m4v.

More testing!

Jeremy


Return to posts index


Don Walker
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 3:31:27 pm

Would someone explain what stems are? (I know that in the old days working with 7 and Soundtrack Pro, that the result would be STEMS) but I confess I don't really know what I'm looking at when I see them.
(A google search first page talked a lot about plants, florists and branches)

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


Return to posts index

Warren Eig
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 3:42:41 pm

Stem are the raw surround tracks. There are 6 stems to a 5.1 mix-- L, C, R, Lc, Rc, LFE.

Warren Eig
O 310-470-0905


email: warren@babyboompictures.com
website: http://www.babyboompictures.com


REEL: http://www.babyboompictures.com/BabyBoomPictures/Reels.html




Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 3:48:00 pm

A stem is basically an audio channel.

From the audio engineer I get six channels of audio, Left, Right, Center, LFE, Left Surround, and Right Surround. I bring in all 6 tracks and stack them in the order I need.

Those 6 channels then get encoded to 5.1 ac3 (which is just one file with 6 channels).

Another example of stems is when you receive split mixes from an engineer (like Dialogue, Music, Effects) all on separate tracks.

This is opposed to a stereo mix where everything is combined.

When you export a multitrack QT from FCPX using Roles, you are essentially exporting stems. Each Role corresponds to it's own channel.

Jeremy


Return to posts index


Paul Figgiani
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 4:10:14 pm

Jeremy,

Cool. I wasn't aware of Subler. I'll check it out ...

I didn't have any problems running this through Compressor/QT 7. I also confirmed playback compatibility on my system.

Thanks.

-paul.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 4:44:51 pm

[Paul Figgiani] "I also confirmed playback compatibility on my system. "

Thanks, Paul.

Did you Airplay it?


Return to posts index

Paul Figgiani
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 5:34:46 pm

[Jeremy] Thanks, Paul. Did you Airplay it?

Yes. Worked as expected with proper channel routing ...

-paul.


Return to posts index


Michael Gissing
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 15, 2013 at 12:39:16 am

From the viewpoint of audio deliverables for broadcast the term stem specifically applies to the separate elements that make up the mix. Music, Narration, Dialog and Effects are considered the typical stems. They can be mono, stereo , 5.1 or 7.1 . The term really means mix components and is not used to describe the mix or DME. When I hear people describing Roles as stems I cringe as roles best describe routing - bussing or sub grouping as it is described in the DAW world.

Sometimes I am asked to split the effects stems further into foley, atmos & sync fx. Nat Geo like this further stem split. The stem files are delivered as wavs and not usually part of a quicktime file or HDCamSR tape as basic stems need 4 x 6 channels. That on top of full mix 5.1, mix stereo, DME 5.1 & stereo adds up to 48 channels.

To your question Jeremy I use Avidemux(GTK+) software to mux the ac3 to any file. So there is no recompression or format change. This is free Linux software and it enables me to remove an existing audio track and remux any other audio track including ac3. I have subler but haven't used it since finding Avidemux. It is much like Quicktime Pro but works for mp4 and lots of other formats.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 15, 2013 at 1:33:34 am

[Michael Gissing] "To your question Jeremy I use Avidemux(GTK+) software to mux the ac3 to any file. So there is no recompression or format change. This is free Linux software and it enables me to remove an existing audio track and remux any other audio track including ac3"

Thanks, Michael.

It's sounds just like Subler. As far as I can tell, there's no format change there either, besides the wrapper. Is that right?

For non AC3 devices, do you also add an AAC stereo track below it?

Does that even work? I didn't get to testing that part today.


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 15, 2013 at 2:52:00 am

Avidemux lets you add mulitple audio formats so in theory yes to both ac3 and aac. Usually I am getting rid of the aac and replacing with ac3.

In my case I had a specific requirement for a museum display which only needed ac3.


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 15, 2013 at 4:05:18 am

Thanks, Michael.

Ac3 is playing fine on surround systems, but obviously is playing weird everywhere else. On was hoping for a magic setting to have ac3 or AAC depending on device.

I did some reading and it seems like it may be possible, but it may be not worth it, either.

Subler will allow it, but I'm not sure if every device will understand it.

I'll try it tomorrow.

Thanks again.


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 15, 2013 at 5:43:29 am

Every video player on the planet should be able to do a standard foldown from 5.1 to stereo so the ac3 should work regardless. Otherwise the risk is the player will not be able to chose or will try to play both audio streams and mix them.

A good player like VLC should allow the user to chose the appropriate track but that doesn't make it idiot proof as the operator will need some knowledge.


Return to posts index

Lance Bachelder
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 6:39:21 pm

I've done these easily in FCPX - just using a 5.1 project and making certain all my roles and audio properties are correct - i.e Dialog set to Center Channel etc. and used the Apple TV 1080p Share with 5.1 - works perfect via Airplay to Apple TV!

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 8:09:13 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "I've done these easily in FCPX - just using a 5.1 project and making certain all my roles and audio properties are correct - i.e Dialog set to Center Channel etc. and used the Apple TV 1080p Share with 5.1 - works perfect via Airplay to Apple TV!"

When I do this, it says that it is going to create a stereo file in the export dialog like this:



In QT7, I get back a stereo report like this:



I can only get Surround if I choose Master file and change the codec from Source to h264.

When I mux an Ac3 and x264 movie in Subler, it looks like this:



Jeremy


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 9:32:40 pm

apropos of nothing - I had to output a 5.1 mix handed off to me as a pass through with an edit in PPro6 for an E3 game trailer a bit back there.

The degree to which I had no idea what I was doing there in PPro is hard to describe. Still haven't a clue with half of PPro.
I have literally never hugged the internet harder.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 9:48:57 pm

I am also using Pr to check all these test files I am making, but also I used AME to try and get a compressed file that I need and AME encodes the files as stems (6 discreet mono).

This is fine if the receiver knows what to do with it, but I am trying to make the lowest common denominator file. :(

Premiere's different types tracks drive me really insane sometimes as they can be difficult to map and monitor. But sometimes, they are A-OK.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 14, 2013 at 10:20:45 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Premiere's different types tracks drive me really insane sometimes"

oh god yes. Mine was late last minute with the pro tools lady kept to check the output. PPro will actually clean pass through and output a 5.1 though. As ever depends on the sequence setup thing. You can't monitor it without a track submix for preview mind you. I'm a moron on audio but you can actually get fond of the track mixer apparatus. lots of things going on there?

aside from that tho - the basic inability to set source monitor audio db that carries through onto the timeline? You what?
(you only get a one off +- gain dialogue box thing? Doesn't carry through? surely not kids.)

Or I'm stupid on that. I'm poking at it. Also absolutely no audio source keyframing represented.
Audio source seems a bit of a wasteland.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 15, 2013 at 5:06:20 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "You can't monitor it without a track submix for preview mind you."

But it doesn't always work. I can't mix down an 8 channel output sequence to stereo monitoring and keep any sort of channel assignments, for instance. This is one of the things I loved about FCP7 is that you could map any track at any time to any output channel. Pr forces a new sequence, setup just right, with really crappy mapping. If I want an 8 channel output, monitored in stereo, there aren't enough submixes in the world to get it done as every time I switch back from the submix, my output channel assignments are blown. Then I have to remap and delete the submix.

It drives me nuts. I do like the idea of the submix system (media 100 had it over 10 years ago when I used it), but it doesn't work like a submix on a real live audio mixer works. I am far from an audio expert, I just know how I want things to work.

The "down mix" button in FCP7 was a very elegant solution.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "aside from that tho - the basic inability to set source monitor audio db that carries through onto the timeline? You what? "

Yeah...perhaps in CC v2? :)


Return to posts index

Keith Koby
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 16, 2013 at 6:47:30 pm

I skimmed through the rest of the replies, and don't think you've got this answered yet. Export your 5.1 master ProRes file from your fcpx timeline. Open it in QT to make sure that it is indeed 5.1 in metadata.

Download Handbrake (and VLC). Handbrake started reading ProRes files a while back. I imagine the decode is going to 8 bit, but the resulting h.264 is anyway, so don't worry.

Grab the AppleTV3 preset and then modify the audio settings to just make the one AC3 5.1 track.

The x.264 encoder in handbrake is ridiculously good compared to just about every paid transcoder out there and the audio will be 5.1.

Not to talk bad on episode, but even if you do get the pro audio option, you have to use the channel mapper to rearrange audio into the order they expect (which by the way matches no industry standard).

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 16, 2013 at 7:42:53 pm

I had read about using handbrake for this, and I have handbrake, but I have never really been truly impressed with handbrakes results. Perhaps I'm holding it wrong and I'll give it another shot. It won't read 5.1 from FCP7 (due to the channels being 1 stereo, 2 mono, and 1 stereo despite having the channel assignments in the correct order), but an FCPX surrounded export does provide the proper metadata to handbrake (5.1).

If this does work, though, it will be nice as it's one step instead of a three step Subler workflow.

[Keith Koby] "Not to talk bad on episode, but even if you do get the pro audio option, you have to use the channel mapper to rearrange audio into the order they expect (which by the way matches no industry standard)."

1 to 2
2 to 3
3 to 1
4 to 6
5 to 4
6 to 5

Because of all the testing, it is now committed to memory, or rather, an episode preset ;)

Thanks so much, Keith. I'll post back about handbrake results. Much appreciated.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 16, 2013 at 8:18:03 pm

Handbrake does the same thing as episode without the channel map.

Takes L, R, C, Lfe, Ls, Rs and outputs L, C, R, Ls, Rs, Lfe. The file sounds weird on non surround devices due to the flip-flopped order.

The video looks good though! ;)


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: AirPlay 5.1 surround
on Aug 20, 2013 at 7:01:58 pm

Funny thing about AirPlay;

I can get almost any crappy web video to stream to the AppleTV and it displays it no matter of format, frame rate, audio, etc, happily playing on any NTSC/HD compliant TV via hdmi

When trying to get AC3 on an iDevice for streaming, it chokes and won't transfer.

Streaming from a computer works just fine with AC3.

Dolby Digital and ProLogic II AAC work just fine on iDevices, but it doesn't sounds like AC3 5.1.

I have learned more than I wanted to know. I can't wait to go back to exporting surround stems. It's so much easier!


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]