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OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc

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Gerry Fraiberg
OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 10:55:11 am

Sony and Panasonic have today announced that they have signed a basic agreement with the objective of jointly developing a next-generation standard for professional-use optical discs.

http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/press/pr-sony-panasonic?SM=FB1&src=290713_post_Pa...



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Craig Seeman
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 1:00:04 pm

That it can be done with optical, I have not doubt, the key is cost. What is "reasonable" cost differs for each of us. Personally I have mixed feelings about LTO tape so am very interested in optical disc systems. One problem is how widely used and available the record and playback mechanisms are.... or will be years hence.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 1:39:58 pm

300GB by 2015?

I'm not an analyst, but they are probably going to have to hope that they can squeeze a bit more out than that? I guess this is recording media, not archival, in which case, they will be on par with some ssd tech (like SxS).

A current 2.5 min project I am working on has over 7TBs of footage. This is for one measly video.

It would take 48 discs (on site and off site copies) to archive this one projects source material.

I'm with you, Craig, about the players/recorders needed now and in to the future. Currently, LTO seems to still be the best bet, especially having something that is bondable and recognized by insurance companies.

But it is not cheap nor is it exactly ubiquitous.


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Craig Seeman
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 1:47:47 pm

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-ODSD55U/
300GB "starter" media up to 1.5TB
Both write once and rewritable media.

$6190 at B&H
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=980494&Q=&is=REG&A=d...

$40 for write once 300GB cartridge
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/983358-REG/sony_odc300r_archive_cartr...

$280 for write once 1.5TB
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/983354-REG/sony_odc1500r_archive_cart...

$99 for rewritable 600GB
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/983355-REG/sony_odc600re_archive_cart...

It'll be interesting to see what Panasonic contributes and what marketing will be done to make this more common and drive down prices.



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Craig Seeman
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 1:50:09 pm

And the video explaining it from Sony.









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Gerry Fraiberg
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 2:09:24 pm

Good find Craig.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 4:21:40 pm

But that's the current technology.

The next gen tech will have a capacity of 300GB by 2015.

I guess I am more confused.


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Craig Seeman
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 4:29:11 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The next gen tech will have a capacity of 300GB by 2015."

There's no mention specifically what the "next gen tech" is. The current gen of Sony's product supports 300GB up to 1.5TB. If there's something new in the offing one would hope it's more affordable if it is to be wide spread and viewed as a viable alternative to LTO.

Sony does have an optical disc archival system already available. I think being aware of that helps in pondering what Panasonic's position will be in this.



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Devin Crane
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 4:36:33 pm

The first article is about a consumer based disc that is due out in 2015 to replace Blu-Ray, the archival disc system that is currently out is probably the pro version, based on similar standards and was released a couple of months ago. XDCAM SD came out years before blu-ray was released, looks like something similar is happening here but with archive.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 6:54:38 pm

[Devin Crane] "The first article is about a consumer based disc that is due out in 2015 to replace Blu-Ray, the archival disc system that is currently out is probably the pro version, based on similar standards and was released a couple of months ago."

Are we all reading the same article?

Here's the first sentence:

"Tokyo, Japan – July 29, 2013 – Sony Corporation (‘Sony’) and Panasonic Corporation (‘Panasonic’) today announced that they have signed a basic agreement with the objective of jointly developing a next-generation standard for professional-use optical discs, with the objective of expanding their archive business for long-term digital data storage."

and part of the second:

"..and will target the development of an optical disc with recording capacity of at least 300GB by the end of 2015. "


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Daniel Ludwig
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 7:50:36 pm

hey guys,
calculate the discs that would be needed to replace ONE tandberg 50TB LTO-storage-loader! (8 catridges) ;)

I´m not kidding, that the max. size they have at the moment.

danny


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 7:57:21 pm

[Daniel Ludwig] "calculate the discs that would be needed to replace ONE tandberg 50TB LTO! ;)"

Eleventy billion


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Craig Seeman
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 30, 2013 at 2:48:57 pm

I think this RedShark article gives more clues

http://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/943-maybe-there-s-going-to-be-a...

Particularly

On the Sony format I had linked to.
Each disc within the cartridge holds 25GB capacity, offering a total range of storage capacities from 300GB to 1.5TB.

On Panasonic's format
In July this year, Panasonic launched its ‘LB-DM9 series’ of optical disc storage devices. This series uses a dedicated magazine of just 20.8mm thickness to house twelve 100GB optical discs. A maximum of 90 magazines can be stored, providing a total storage capacity of 180TB. In addition,

And what this is about
will target the development of an optical disc with recording capacity of at least 300GB by the end of 2015. Going forward, Sony and Panasonic will continue to hold discussions regarding the specifications and other items relating to the development of this new standard.

So if they're referring to a 300GB vs 25GB (Sony) or 100GB (Panasonic) Then a twelve disc magazine would be 36TB rather than Sony's 1.5TB mac I linked to. The new format might be competitive to LTO depending on price. Consider what the capacity would be with Panasonic's 90 magazine device. This would be the "Professional" system.

The subsequent "consumer" version would probably be the 300GB replacement to the 25GB Blu-ray disc for 4k movies.



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Gary Huff
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 9:15:43 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "A current 2.5 min project I am working on has over 7TBs of footage. This is for one measly video."

Blackmagic CC footage?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 29, 2013 at 9:46:14 pm

No, there is hardly any new footage, actually.

It is nearly 60 years of footage from various sources from Film to VHS, HD, to SD and below, that is now all ProRes...

...For a 3 minute piece. I am editor, here me roar, (while I cry).


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Gary Huff
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 30, 2013 at 4:14:06 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It is nearly 60 years of footage from various sources from Film to VHS, HD, to SD and below, that is now all ProRes..."

Yep, that'll do it!


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Dave Gage
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 30, 2013 at 6:39:16 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It is nearly 60 years of footage from various sources from Film to VHS, HD, to SD and below, that is now all ProRes...

...For a 3 minute piece. I am editor, here me roar, (while I cry)."


Jeremy,

I guessing you're a bit busy now, but would you mind at some point sharing some of your technical details?

* Are you setting it all up in a 720p timeline?
* Using any special filters or plugins on the old footage?
* Using any 3rd party software to up-res the old footage?
* How many Events/Projects?

Thanks,
Dave


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 30, 2013 at 7:31:30 pm

I wish I could have cut this in FCPX as the Event Browser would have been absolutely ideal for this project, but alas, I couldn't cut it in X and I am still using the trusty FCP7.

Yes, it's a 720p timeline, the whole piece is going to get a graphic sort of overlay which will include some color treatments, no special plugs for upscaling (this is a really quick cut piece as I am obviously trying to shove 100 years of time passed, spanning 60 years of acquired footage in to 3 mins or less) as quality is what it is. Some of it is great, most of it is not.

It makes me think that once 4k does in fact become some sort of every day post production reality, all of our hard HD work is going to look like SD does in HD.


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Dave Gage
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 30, 2013 at 7:52:24 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It makes me think that once 4k does in fact become some sort of every day post production reality, all of our hard HD work is going to look like SD does in HD."

Couldn't disagree on that one. On the bright side, the few times I've used SD in a 720p Project, it came out better than I expected just using FCPX.

Good luck with this project,
Dave


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Richard Herd
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 30, 2013 at 12:43:07 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "especially having something that is bondable and recognized by insurance companies"

Can you explain more about this (or post a link)? thanks!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 30, 2013 at 2:24:15 am

LTO, in certain situations (film industry for the purposes of this thread), is insurable, in that in order to get insurance for your production, you have to have media backed up to LTO.

I don't have any links handy, but I'm sure you could find some, and if you deal with insurance companies that will insure all facets of a production, it would require a phone call to an agent.


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Richard Herd
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 30, 2013 at 4:28:03 am

Thanks!

Got an agent, needed the right question.

Thanks again!


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Daniel Ludwig
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 30, 2013 at 5:37:12 am

LTO and film roles are insurable, good "old fashioned" tapes as well - harddiscs are not, as far as I have been told.

danny


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 30, 2013 at 12:41:37 pm

[Daniel Ludwig] "LTO and film roles are insurable, good "old fashioned" tapes as well - harddiscs are not, as far as I have been told.
"


I think it's wholly dependent on the policy. Some require multiple hard dive and LTO, but yes, typically hard drive only backups will not be covered.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 30, 2013 at 1:16:13 pm

By the way, if you haven't read this article, it's a nice glimpse into archiving on a relatively large scale and how LTO seems to be shaking out for some folks, especially with the advent of LTO5 and LTFS.

There's a healthy discussion that involves archiving and LTO by way of digital acquisition from HBO's perspective: http://library.creativecow.net/kaufman_debra/HBO-Post_HPA-Event/1#16520


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT - Sony and Panasonic Working on Pro Optical Storage Disc
on Jul 31, 2013 at 6:51:25 pm

This is slightly OT, but a big question with digital archiving is, does long shelf life matter like it does for analog? Straight data transfers don't suffer the generational loss that is inherent to analog copies and tech is changing so fast now that "Do I have the hardware/software to read the data?" is a more relevant question than "Is that data still intact?".

I've read in a couple different places that for archiving you should plan to transfer your data to current mediums and current codecs every 5-10yrs to avoid having a closet full of data on a medium (or in a codec/format) that is not accessible anymore.




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