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And another thing... Conspiracy theories

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

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Fiona Fuchs
And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 24, 2013 at 3:09:25 pm

Did apple really just think total radicalization of their successful program was the way to go?

I have heard weird things - like they threw adobe a bone so they could come to some deal on flash. Sounds silly, but if anyone has a more logical suggestion for what has happened I'd like to hear it.

I am a very very fast FCP user, the program is like an extension of m,y hands. I just don;t know that I'm capable of being so proficient in multiple platforms, so I'd like to make an informed decision when deciding what to throw myself into next.

Any ideas of how this FCP thing will end up?


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Gary Huff
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 24, 2013 at 3:45:03 pm

[Fiona Fuchs] "Any ideas of how this FCP thing will end up?"

Apple is, so far, doing the right thing by it. It's useful, especially for particular projects.

And you should have room in your brain for knowing how to use both FCPX and Premiere.


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Fiona Fuchs
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 24, 2013 at 8:06:48 pm

Yeah - there's room to learn more than one. But I want to be an expert in one too. Decisions decisions.


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Ronny Courtens
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 24, 2013 at 4:46:51 pm

[Fiona Fuchs] "I have heard weird things"

You always hear weird things on the internet. The most important thing is not to believe any of them ((-:

"so I'd like to make an informed decision"

Then take the time and try out the different options. That's the only way of making a truly informed decision. If you are an experienced editor you can learn to work with any NLE in no time, they're just tools after all. And after 35+ years in this business I have learned that it's harder to replace a good editor than to replace an entire post production workflow.

"Any ideas of how this FCP thing will end up?"

If it continues to go in the direction it is going now: extremely well.



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Shane Ross
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 24, 2013 at 5:14:57 pm

Apple built FCX to fulfill the needs of the majority of it's user base, instead of chasing the "Hollywood model" that is only 2% of it's base. The new version is cheaper, it is tons faster in how it works, it does a lot of things smartly...and fulfills the needs of MANY people. It even outsold FCP 7 by nearly double.

Apple succeeded.

The issue is that in doing so, they alienated a bunch of us who use it for the "hollywood type" of productions, and we are a pretty vocal bunch. It was tough because Apple had really made in roads into hollywood, and then just shut it down. I was angry, for about a year.

But now, I am back to Avid, which is better, and does all that I need in the work that I do. Well, not all, there are other projects that it's terrible for, and for that I have Adobe Premiere Pro.

No conspiracy....Apple was just listening to it's larger base, and they are very VERY happy.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Fiona Fuchs
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 24, 2013 at 8:05:06 pm

Yeah, our NLE's were based on an ingest workflow and it's not always super relevant these days - I totally get it. Don't like the way they stopped all support though - dictators! :)

And I'm pretty sure all of these generations X'ers will make me redundant one day.

Thanks for your input.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 25, 2013 at 4:07:14 pm

[Shane Ross] "they alienated a bunch of us who use it for the "hollywood type" of productions, and we are a pretty vocal bunch"

I think they actually alienated the FCPX user base to be honest, haven't come across a single job offering asking for FCPX, and I haven't received an offline project (I do onlines mostly) done in FCPX.

To be honest, I never received a Premiere project either, FCP is still strong in Hollywood, but Avid is stronger.


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Fiona Fuchs
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 25, 2013 at 4:11:01 pm

That's what it is like in my town too - everyone stagnated - no reason to put money into anything else FCP7 and avid do what we need. But I reckon all the kids will be well versed in X soon.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 25, 2013 at 5:16:00 pm

[Fiona Fuchs] "That's what it is like in my town too - everyone stagnated - no reason to put money into anything else FCP7 and avid do what we need. But I reckon all the kids will be well versed in X soon."

I guess, it's not a bad idea to learn it just in case, you could probably spend 15 minutes every day to build repetition and get used to it, so when you need to pick it up you don't have to re-learn it, but I wouldn't spend too much energy on it, as far of what I'm seeing in the industry today, Avid still IS the most used and trusted NLE for films and TV, there's a lot of infrastructure built around Avids, and lots of workflows and interchange between departments, and to their merit, they're improving but not changing the way they work, you know the expression, "if it works, don't change it" (At least not Apple style)

I hear a lot of how fast you can edit, but will that make a better edit? I think the time to analyze and think your edit through it's important.

I'd watch for Lightworks when it comes for Mac though, that may be a game changer.


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Sascha Engel
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 25, 2013 at 5:46:02 pm

You definitely got a point about the speed l, Gustavo. Fast aint always better and good things need time to develop, but there is times and jobs you just have to be quick to hit the deadline. Specially in the commercial world and there I definitely see the strength of X, since it does allow you to technically work faster than on AVID. it's a bit like with cameras: there is not the one best camera, only the best camera for this specific job. At the end of the day it's the editor that counts, not the tool. If you are a master in what you do, you can make a great film in iMovie.
Could you tell me what is light works? I'm curious.

Sascha Engel
TIME BANDITZ Productions
http://www.youtube.com/taikang


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 25, 2013 at 5:53:27 pm

[Sascha Engel] "Could you tell me what is light works? I'm curious."

http://www.lwks.com

It's been around for ages, lots of film work, but it kind of revived now that it's open source, and it's coming to Mac.

I don't know in Germany, but in the US commercial work is done though Agencies, and they like to spend a lot of money, probably the only sector in this industry that does, that means that if you need to take it to a top post facility for online and color and VFX, FCPX will never be used, it even may be rejected.


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Marcus Moore
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 12:17:58 am

There are no absolutes in this industry. Except one: "Never" never applies.

How short ARE people's memories about the early days of FCP?



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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 3:25:29 am

[Marcus Moore] "How short ARE people's memories about the early days of FCP?"

The early days of FCP has nothing to do with what's going on with FCPX today, before it was a new software causing some stir, today FCPX is a total screw up of a well matured software.


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Marcus Moore
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 3:48:14 am

10.0 was brand new software. You may not like that they did that, but that's what it is- so the analogy is perfectly relevant. Final Cut will have to prove itself all over again.

They may be able to reclaim some of those inroads in TV and Film before FCP7 usage evaporates completely, it all depends on how aggressive Apple is with improvements. I think this Fall's release will be a big one (not having had a feature update for a year October). And Logic Pro X points to some great things.

The software is working really well for certain segments of the market, and as new new features are added more workflows will be accommodated. There's no way to qualify your stance that it will never be used in agency work again, unless you happen to have FCPX's 5 year roadmap handy.



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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 4:01:54 am

[Marcus Moore] "There's no way to qualify your stance that it will never be used in agency work again, unless you happen to have FCPX's 5 year roadmap handy."

I wasn't implying "for eternity", I was referring to the present day and immediate future, who knows what'll happen next, but I can tell you right now that at the post production houses I work in Hollywood none of them are using FCPX, or plan to use it in the near future, they use Avid, or they plan to squeeze FCP until the last moment.

There are at least two changes that needs to happen for FCPX to be adopted in post house for what I can see (I haven't use FCPX much BTW, so there may some workarounds)

1. Tape output from timeline (important to do insert edits)
2. Audio tracks as in FCP.


[Marcus Moore] "10.0 was brand new software."

Well, if it's not FCP then for certain it's iMovie 10.


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John Godwin
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 4:14:55 am

Calling FCPX iMovie 10 is a sure sign of someone who knows next to nothing about it. That's an old theme/meme. I always appreciate it when people self-identify.

Best,
John


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Marcus Moore
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 4:31:10 am

[Gustavo Bermudas] "none of them are using FCPX, or plan to use it in the near future, they use Avid, or they plan to squeeze FCP until the last moment."

And that's definitely to FCPX's advantage. This should have been Apple's stated goal from launch- "Stay on 7 while we transition to this new platform." (ala OS9 to OSX)

[Gustavo Bermudas] "There are at least two changes that needs to happen for FCPX to be adopted in post house for what I can see (I haven't use FCPX much BTW, so there may some workarounds)

1. Tape output from timeline (important to do insert edits)"


Very likely not.

[Gustavo Bermudas] "2. Audio tracks as in FCP."

Unless Apple does a complete reversal on Connected Clips, the Magnetic Timeline, and Roles- no way. Static tracks are unworkable with the other two. And from my work over the last year, I'm not bothered at all. Some work on Timeline organization is VERY needed, but Roles metadata can solve that problem.

If they do it the right way, the argument about tracks will be rendered moot. Tracks aren't the goal, they're a means to an end. As long a audio work both within FCPX, or export to a DAW, don't suffer- the goal is met. They aren't there yet (though I do both of these things daily), but again, Logic X makes me very hopeful.

[Gustavo Bermudas] "Well, if it's not FCP then for certain it's iMovie 10."

Ug...



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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 3:39:38 pm

yeah, well, I might have gone a bit too far by calling it iMovie 10, I admit, but, it bothers me that people call it version 1.
It's not, they decided to call it version 10, and use the name Final Cut, it's the same company (Apple), and they've been working on it for at least 3 years or more.
So, people like to cut it some slack by saying it's version 1, but in reality, it's a rewrite to a 64 bit platform, much like Avid Media Composer did, or DaVinci Resolve, but they didn't screw it up they way Apple did.


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Steve Connor
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 3:48:55 pm

[Gustavo Bermudas] "but in reality, it's a rewrite to a 64 bit platform,"

No it's not, it's a completely new piece of software, they chose to use an old name

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 4:09:45 pm

[Steve Connor] "No it's not, it's a completely new piece of software, they chose to use an old name"

Then this is becoming a philosophical argument that could go either way, my point is, if they decided to call it the same, then it is (at least at a market perception level)

In a previous post I got people upset by calling it iMovie 10, but, honestly, it's obvious they use the iMovie codebase to port it to 64 bits, probably iMovie already was, hence the opening asking you to import iMovie projects and the un-ability to open FCP ones, so, I don't think I was that far off then...


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Craig Seeman
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 4:27:40 pm

You're confusing marketing with feature set.
We can argue about the marketing but the software feature set is its own.

[Gustavo Bermudas] "it's obvious they use the iMovie codebase to port it to 64 bits,"

Not true at all from what I know. iMovie on Mac desktop was Quicktime based. FCPX is CoreMedia AVFoundation based. Some UI elements were used but that's far from using the iMovie code base.

[Gustavo Bermudas] "hence the opening asking you to import iMovie projects and the un-ability to open FCP ones"

Ubillos actually wanted to call what became iMovie "First Cut" and was "overruled" in the reports I've read on the history. I've had a couple of clients that use iMovie as a sort of "selects/rough cut" software to be imported into FCPX. It's a step towards metadata import rather than the old "enter the client's time code selects" method. The drawback is the client has to be Mac based. If they have a Mac they have iMovie though.



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Steve Connor
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 4:28:00 pm

[Gustavo Bermudas] "In a previous post I got people upset by calling it iMovie 10, but, honestly, it's obvious they use the iMovie codebase to port it to 64 bits, probably iMovie already was, hence the opening asking you to import iMovie projects and the un-ability to open FCP ones, so, I don't think I was that far off then...
"


Not true at all I'm afraid

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 11:14:43 pm

So how would you export for example a DM&E for a trailer you just cut, that's a common deliverable? Or split audio?


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Marcus Moore
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 11:43:49 pm

When you assign Role metadata to clips, those clips become essentially an invisible "track" when placed in the Project timeline.

Using one of the preset Roles like "Dialogue", if you had 3 people in a scene, all that dialogue is grouped together on export; and when it's imported into the DAW, it will show up as Dialogue 1, Dialogue 2, and Dialogue 3. If you want more granularity, use SubRoles to label each characters dialogue with "Dialogue Mike", "Dialogue Sue", and "Dialogue Phil". When Brought into a DAW, all that info is brought over, converting them into tracks for the engineer. You can create as much granularity as you want- and because the Role information is carried over to the DAW, there's no longer need for accompanying emails along with your OMF to tell the audio guy what stuff is on which tracks.

If you've done your mix IN FCPX, but need to supply DM&E, FPCX will export AIFF or WAVs for each Role, OR a multichannel Quicktime file.

The biggest issue with Roles at the moment is that the information isn't being used to organize the clips visually in the timeline. Once that's done, the FCPX Project window would look very "Track-like", except that Roles can be multiple "Lanes" deep, or contain stereo or surround elements without them needing to be spread across multiple Tracks. It's up to the editor how tightly organized the elements need to be.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 27, 2013 at 5:09:47 pm

Sounds cool before you check it against the real world. How do you assign Roles to the 8-track BWF-P imported to FCPX?


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Marcus Moore
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 27, 2013 at 11:46:37 pm

You can assign unique Roles to individual elements of any multi-channel audio file.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 28, 2013 at 1:28:24 pm

One by one for each take in a feature instead of arming whatever track layout you'd like and start cutting away?


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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 28, 2013 at 3:21:32 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "One by one for each take in a feature instead of arming whatever track layout you'd like and start cutting away?"

Not one by one. You can assign a role to multiple items at once. There are obviously occasions where this approach will not work, but no workflow is perfect right?


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Sascha Engel
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 25, 2013 at 4:35:37 pm

We have a saying in German: what the farmer doesn't know, they don't wanna eat. I think, Hollywood is a very inflexible, traditional environment. It takes time until the wall for X is broken. Believe me, if the Murch starts to edit in X, many will follow. I hated it when it was released, but I realise more and more the potential of it. If they manage to kill the weaknesses it has and ad the things it's still missing and if they make it as solid working as 7 or MC, it will kick some ass in the industry.

Sascha Engel
TIME BANDITZ Productions
http://www.youtube.com/taikang


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Craig Seeman
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 24, 2013 at 5:12:56 pm

[Fiona Fuchs] "Did apple really just think total radicalization of their successful program was the way to go?"

For Apple, certainly.
I think they've been aiming for much tighter integration between Software, OS, Hardware. That's probably something they couldn't really do well built on the old code base.

The most radical part has been the UI and I suspect they had some long range forethought on that.

They're in a position as a company where they could afford losing part of the market while they re develop.
Apple has the resources... and the time, to put it back in contention. There's still a few more pieces of the puzzle they need to get into place and then some marketing effort.

Keep in mind for FCPX to be a "success" by Apple's business model, it has to sell hardware. I think it will do that.



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Fiona Fuchs
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 24, 2013 at 8:08:42 pm

You are right, I never really thought about the hardware aspect.


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Marcus Moore
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 24, 2013 at 9:12:30 pm

We shouldn't forget that this is the second time Apple has introduced a product that was mocked by the "Pros" at well below the going rate, only to infiltrate the market from the bottom up. They're not starting from nearly as far down this time, but they are working to re-enter the market as Judas this time, instead of a nobody.

People move on, people forget. If things stayed static in our industry, no one wouldnt't be using anything but AVID. It took FCP 5 years to make serious inroads in the industry. It took Premier 10. There are people on AVID now that swore they'd never go back. There are people who loved Adobe until they CC and now they don't.

Things change.

X does certain thing VERY well- as long as that list improves, its base of users will continue to grow- in numbers and sectors of the business which is can serve.



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Fiona Fuchs
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 24, 2013 at 9:16:30 pm

Ha ha - Judas indeed.


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Bill Davis
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 24, 2013 at 11:57:21 pm

Fiona,

One thing to consider about X is that it does represent new thinking in many areas - and if you do take it on, i honestly think you will stretch yourself as an editor. It encourages an editor to spend time thinking about project preparation in some new ways. The integrated database and keywording can be literally transformative if you allow yourself to explore it and open up to its possibilities. If it fits your needs, X can be a virtual rocket in terms of project completion speed. Not always or for all project types - but for enough project types to make the productivity increase pretty stunning at times.

For example, I allowed three days for post for the client rough cut on the music video I just finished an hour ago. It actually took just six and a half hours to edit start to finish. That initial estimate was based on my 20 plus years as a working editor. No tthe best cutter in the biz, but not a noob, either. We shot two cameras and did 12 takes of mixed wides, mediums and CU to a standard lip sync track. What made it so insanely fast was being able to load up all 24 takes as proxys in the X angle editor and easily switch things in passes.

X has also cut huge time off my client reviews and deliveries since it exports directly to email and so many delivery services.

The quality is superb and the stuff like magnetism that ticked off so many editors as foreign in the beginning is now proving to be a major efficiency boost once you expect it, since you can assemble blocks that remain connected and move them as units at will.

X is excellent editing software. Period. Truly excellent. No, not for 100% of all possible edit styles or editors preferences. But as a tool for creating modern edited material from the most common file based sources - maximizing quality and giving an editor the most common tools you need to get things done fast and well, it's very impressive.

You've just got to get up the learning curve - which is very real. Some editors find it a challenge to re-boot their brains and muscle memory. Others find it easy. But I know very few editors who actually learn it, then are sorry they did.

And that may be the key. Don't talk to editors who don't use the program in order to form your opinions. Seek out editors who DO use it regularly and ask them.

If it was crap, a solid chunk of the growing body of editors who've taken the time to truly learn it would say so.

But most experienced X editors are NOT saying that. At all.

For what it's worth.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Fiona Fuchs
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 25, 2013 at 5:34:48 am

Thanks for taking the time to respond. The best way for me to learn is to throw myself on a couple of projects and by the end of them, I will usually know what I'm talking about.

The problem is, as a freelance, you just can't use client's time for that and I have been too busy to create my own.

But hearing this makes me think I need to get in there a little deeper - I don't mind a learning curve. Everyone seems to be saying that it's great "for certain types of projects" but what are they?

I do mostly TVC's - a feature doco occaisionally - and a big bulk of my work is creative development ( grabbing media from all over, youtube, avi's, dvd's ) mixed formats, crappy formats but with good storytelling ;)

Do you think it's suitable for that?


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Sascha Engel
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 25, 2013 at 7:54:07 am

I'm in a similar situation. More than 10 years on FCP.
Now, I want to switch, since in my current coming up project, the C300 footage cannot be suggested anymore in FPC. So I decided to go two ways - learning X and AVID.
PPro I still kind of now, it was actually my first NLE software. It's very hard, since I have to learn it while actually keep working, so I have long nights with little sleep. I got into X for a week now. And like Shane I hated it in the beginning when they released it back then, since I felt back stabbed by Apple. But now I got over the anger and I must say some things in FCPX are just mind blasting. I just keep asking myself, why nobody introduced those things before to a software? But that said, there is still things, that need definite work still: Now I have to spend another 150.- Dollars, only to be able to export AAF and OMF, which I think, should be part of a pro software.
Other than that, I can strongly suggest FCPX. I like AVID too, but it's a very solid tank, while X is a very mobile jet. I find many things in AVID very inflexible and not intuitive, compared to even FC 7.
If you go for X, I hope, I can help you by then with Qs, like all the good COW people help me right now to get up to speed.


Greetings,

Sascha Engel
TIME BANDITZ Productions
http://www.youtube.com/taikang


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Fiona Fuchs
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 25, 2013 at 8:02:46 am

Thanks Sascha,

That's very kind of you. I'm going to have to bite the bullet, but still not one post department/in-house system I work on is using it. Oh well - with CC in the mix, it looks like it may be the cheapest solution (till we're all hooked te he) so I have to assume people with vote with their wallets if it does everything it's supposed to.

I am sure I will be looking for tech help very soon!


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Herb Sevush
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 25, 2013 at 12:41:03 pm

[Bill Davis] "We shot two cameras and did 12 takes of mixed wides, mediums and CU to a standard lip sync track. What made it so insanely fast was being able to load up all 24 takes as proxys in the X angle editor and easily switch things in passes."

Every time you write about the joys of cutting multicam in FCPX i flash back to this previous conversation we had about 2 years ago.

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/18296

[Herb Sevush]

"Multi-Cam essentials

1) The ability to create a multi-clip with a minimum of 25 angles, no limit would be better."


http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/18336

[Bill Davis]

"I don't want to turn my laptop into your idea of a multi-cam monster. At ALL. To me, 25 angles is at LEAST 17 too many. - at least until Thunderbolt fully implements the all optical roadmap. Anyway, I personally I don't want the dev team to spend a minute coding in stuff that only a tiny fraction of the users will ever really need.
Maybe at some distant future point, we'll have some kind of UBER-WiFi that lets some kid sit at their laptop and grab 25 plus real-time feeds from the cel phones surrounding a BMX race, but I'm not holding my breath for that."


Must feel good to be so right so often.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 12:11:01 am

OK then. What have we learned here?

That what I was thinking TWO YEARS ago - is not the same as what I know and think now.

Aren't you SHOCKED! Perhaps in your world, thinking should be rigid and inflexible, but sadly, I don't feel the same way. I kinda like learning new stuff and altering my opinions as new facts come into view. It make me feel like I'm still processing information properly and not just relying on the same old turgid thinking that I developed 20 plus years ago when I was learning to edit.

At FCP-X 10.0.0 (what I was learning how to use two years ago) I had a well established video editing workflow that virtually NEVER included multi-cam work with more than 4 cameras. (I also only OWNED one camera that took me nearly 6 years to pay off and own!) Today I own at least a dozen cameras if you count the ones in my iPHone and iPads - each of which I've used in the past six months to grab content when they were what I had available at the decisive recording moment.

Flash forward to today. I've done at least six edits in the past year that involved between six and 25 sources.

Now that I live in a new reality where needing to switch 24 cameras does NOT equal being the Grass Valley operator at the SuperBowl - the way I work has actually changed. Imagine that.

I consider this healthy growth.

I'm saddened that you feel that you're stuck in the same place - with the same ideas - that informed your business practices prior to two years ago.

I've kind of moved on.

Since you appear to be confirmed as someone who only has derision for X, good luck with your alternatives. Hope AVID keeps upright with the shifting sands of their financial footing - or that you're happy having your production tools access hard-wired into Adobe for the rest of your working life.

I kinda think "moving on" was smart. In my thinking AND in my NLE.

YMMV.


[Herb Sevush] "Every time you write about the joys of cutting multicam in FCPX i flash back to this previous conversation we had about 2 years ago.

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/18296

[Herb Sevush]

"Multi-Cam essentials

1) The ability to create a multi-clip with a minimum of 25 angles, no limit would be better."

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/18336

[Bill Davis]

"I don't want to turn my laptop into your idea of a multi-cam monster. At ALL. To me, 25 angles is at LEAST 17 too many. - at least until Thunderbolt fully implements the all optical roadmap. Anyway, I personally I don't want the dev team to spend a minute coding in stuff that only a tiny fraction of the users will ever really need.
Maybe at some distant future point, we'll have some kind of UBER-WiFi that lets some kid sit at their laptop and grab 25 plus real-time feeds from the cel phones surrounding a BMX race, but I'm not holding my breath for that."

Must feel good to be so right so often.
"


Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 26, 2013 at 2:00:04 pm

[Bill Davis] "OK then. What have we learned here?"

We all make mistakes, we all guess wrong on occasions,; no one more than me. Last year I predicted the Jets would make the playoffs, when the weight of logic and history would have convinced even a drunkard otherwise. But when I do meet people with real expertise in sports I tend to keep my mouth shut and listen. It's called humility. So I guess what we've learned is you don't exhibit much of that on this forum.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 27, 2013 at 5:29:01 pm

[Herb Sevush] "So I guess what we've learned is you don't exhibit much of that on this forum.
"


Yeah, well. Likely guilty as charged.

I've got as healthy an ego as anyone here. And sure, sometimes that probably comes across as arrogance or a lack of humility.

Then again, I was among the first, (if not actually the very first) voice on this forum that took a very public position that FCP-X was a worthy video editing package. I took that stand in the face of overwhelming opposition from a host of other editors who trashed me soundly for espousing that.

The humbler and smarter voices sat back. Or struck a more neutral and consiliatory tone - and they probably advanced the debate more than you or I did - but I don't generally do that. I enjoy a good argument. It's a character flaw I guess.

Or course, now that X is gaining quite a bit of traction and rapidly becoming seen for what it really is - maybe what you see as arrogance was just the fact that since I came from a perspective somewhat outside the norm of a seat in a large edit shop - I had a slightly clearer view of what X might potentially mean to the wider industry when compared to someone who couldn't see past the "it's NOT FCP-8 - so we're all SCREWED!" view.

I'm wrong a lot. And people point that out a lot.

Which is fine.

But I think the record shows that I've also been right quite a bit. Not perfectly right. Not singularly right. Not even always as equally right as others here who came to understand the actual capabilities of the software just as I did.

But I was right in thinking and saying that X had a LOT to offer to the editing industry.

So I take solace that a good bit of what I said in those early days, is coming to pass.

X is, in fact, an extremely capable editing program. Fast, sure, flexible and fun to drive, if still imperfect.

IIRC your original opinion was kinda that it's crap on a stick and would never amount to anything because it was too radical and screwed up to ever work for anyone. (Actually, that view may have been largely the province of the "old" Aindreas, who apparently has mellowed lately since I don't recall him equating FCP-X with the end of editing civilization as we know it any more. Odd, but I kinda miss those days!)

But you were surely pretty early and pretty vocal in the leading ranks of the X "condemners"

How's that view holding up for you today?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 28, 2013 at 1:13:56 pm

[Bill Davis] "But you were surely pretty early and pretty vocal in the leading ranks of the X "condemners"

How's that view holding up for you today?"


Going back to find that old quote of yours I went through a lot of the old discussions. Unless something else turns up that I didn't see I would say I was wrong on a lot of my suspicions about Apple but I'm quite comfortable with everything I said about X.

I was overly worried that Legacy wouldn't run on updates to the OS and I mistrusted Apple's timetable to bring missing features back to X. the lesson being that anger can lead to mistakes in judgement.

I never said that X wouldn't work or would be a failure. There were a few features that sounded wonderful to me, like auditions, and I even speculated, in the thread that your quote came from, that multicam, when and if it came to X, would be excellent based on the data base driven model that is in X. What I did say about X was that it was the solution to problems that I never had (still true for me) that it's entire philosophy of how editing should be done seemed to be the exact opposite of mine (still true for me) that different is not necessarily better (still believe that) and that I wouldn't want to trade the visual organization of audio tracks for a one button send to vimeo feature (and I still wouldn't.)

So all in all I'm quite comfortable with my remarks about X from two years ago, while my remarks about Apple were overly critical.

In answer to your previous questions to me on this thread Avid is the lead horse in my "switching" NLE race, as it is the only program that does everything I need done right now. After a brief surge to the front Adobe has fallen to the back of the pack and depending on what Apple brings forth in the fall in terms of updates to X and prices for the MacPro X is still in the hunt. I'm comfortable with all of my options but none of them are perfect, and neither was Legacy.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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tony west
Re: And another thing... Conspiracy theories
on Jul 25, 2013 at 12:59:51 pm

[Bill Davis] "The quality is superb and the stuff like magnetism that ticked off so many editors as foreign in the beginning is now proving to be a major efficiency boost once you expect it, since you can assemble blocks that remain connected and move them as units at will."

Bill, this remains my favorite thing about X


I'm cutting a doc right now with a ton of footage and the ease in which I can pick up a whole cut section, with a person, their sound, their b-roll and it's sound, their graphics and their music and drag it all down the timeline and watch how the timeline opens up to part like the Red Sea for to drop it in is great.


Moving whole sections to get a feel of how they work together. Love it.


Another thing that I don't see talked about enough is how Apple has really focused the work flow with the top cameras.


If the OP has not seen the article that James Kaelan posted on Moviemaker about Red workflow it's a must read.



Maybe it's because I love to shoot that it stuck out to me.

But from day one of it's release, they featured the Alexa. I said then, only top end productions use that camera.


They have all the top camera's in the world and a great DSLR (with the way it syncs) workflow.

We get a ton of interns every year at Fox and the other day I saw one with X on his laptop.

Whatever he is learning on at the University he goes to (I don't think it's X) he will know that plus X


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