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The New Mac

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Rafael Amador
The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 3:38:56 pm

Cables are back



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Lance Moody
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 4:44:06 pm

Yeah, because the current Mac Pros all have Blu-Ray and don't need to be plugged in.

Hey, get a Dell! You'll be happier.



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Gary Huff
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 4:59:48 pm

[Lance Moody] "Yeah, because the current Mac Pros all have Blu-Ray and don't need to be plugged in"

Seriously? This is your response?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 5:38:41 pm

And because you never need to plug in a current MacPro to the wall for power, or run fibre cable, or Run DVI cable, or run dual ethernet cable, or run mini SDI to SDI cables, or run USB extensions, or run eSATA cables, or plug in an external drive, or run mini plug audio in and out, or run fw800 cables from the back and front, or have hands the size of beetles to be able to plug all of that in with one hand while holding a MacPro from falling out of the rack in the other.

I know that image is a joke, but really, this is a joke.

A MacPro does not magically run itself with nothing plugged in to it. It's time to get over it.

Jeremy


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Gary Huff
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 7:31:44 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "A MacPro does not magically run itself with nothing plugged in to it. It's time to get over it."

Except now all your internal storage is external, your adapter for that Fibre connection is now external, requiring both a Thunderbolt cable and a Fibre cable, DVI/SDI cables are now plugged into an external box with it's own Thunderbolt cable as well.

So yeah, there's nothing to it.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 8:23:25 pm

[Gary Huff] "Except now all your internal storage is external, your adapter for that Fibre connection is now external, requiring both a Thunderbolt cable and a Fibre cable, DVI/SDI cables are now plugged into an external box with it's own Thunderbolt cable as well."

And I can put those connections wherever I want, not just sticking out of the back of the computer in the back of the rack.

I can service or swap any one of those connected parts without having to take a computer offline, just the specific part.

I will use the exact same DVI adapters on my current MacPro on the new MacPro, and they don't require power.

I can probably get rid of any flaky DVI repeaters. I can probably get rid of any flaky DVI repeaters.

I can extend any connection anywhere including data, display, PCIe, audio, video, and then provide a daisy chainable port on top it, instead of running a 4" ziptied diameter cylinder of disparate and terminated cables to every single room.

Every Thunderbolt component I buy will work on any new Mac I buy, no matter if it is desktop, portable, or somewhere in between.

The positives out weigh a few more wall warts and will simplify bigger installations , and also make single component extensions in larger installs more easy and most importantly more flexible.

I'll take it.


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Gary Huff
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 10:21:43 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Every Thunderbolt component I buy will work on any new Mac I buy, no matter if it is desktop, portable, or somewhere in between."

I do admit that's a bonus.


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Andy Neil
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 5:38:19 pm

Wouldn't it be cool if someone created an enclosure that fit over the top of the new mac pro, was hollow in the middle to make use of the mac pro's cooling design and housed four internal drives connected by 1-2 thunderbolt cables?

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Craig Alan
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 6:18:54 pm

I was hoping the new mac pro would be modular along these lines. Give each customer what they need and allow them to add on as the need changes. I was also hoping the new OS would be a sequential number and/or date so i knew intuitively which OS came out when and in what order. Mavericks is a ridiculous name for one of the the most recognized brands in history.

But bottom line, I'll be happy if the new configuration is reasonably priced when all is said and done.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Craig Seeman
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 5:49:52 pm

And all that stuff can be moved to a MBP saving me from having to buy PCIe cards for the MacPro and separate versions of the same for the MBP. In fact, if I really want I can carry (that's right CARRY) the new MacPro with me if I need that power instead of a laptop.

Once you put two GPUs in the old MacPro to match the new MacPro, you're only left with a couple of 4x PCIe slots. Compare that to New MacPro with 6 TB ports.



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Lance Moody
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 9:02:13 pm

Some people just like straw men...



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Rick Lang
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 1:03:53 am

Carry the new Mac Pro with your essential stuff plugged in? Could work--get the right Pelican case designed and you are good to go! A lot easier to handle than my PowerMac G5 that I had to lift today to get the carpets cleaned.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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James Culbertson
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 9:08:55 pm

Cables never left. How many here have more cables plugged into your older MacPro than the setup on the right of that picture? I certainly do.

By my calculations I will have fewer cables with the new MacPro.


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Fabrizio D'Agnano
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 9:49:56 pm

I think it's not only the cables but the external devices one will have to add. I now have five HD's inside my MP. The system drive will be inside the new MP, but I'll need a couple of external arrays (two more than the ones I already have) to have a raid 0 fast array, possibly TB for editing, and a raid 1 array for export, graphics and other media, like the ones I have now (archive, backup and the such besides). Or just one larger RAID5 TB set, that would however end up to cost about the same or more. I now have a Blackmagic intensity Pro inside my MP, I'll need an external TB Intensity box. I have a few external e-sata arrays and enclosures, I'll need a new TB to e-sata adapter box. I have an optical drive inside my MP, I'll need an external one. My desktop will end up to be more crowded than it's now, cables apart, and there'll be a few adapters to buy, hoping they work flawlessly and they don't cause problems like I would expect from an internal Apple solution. I'll go for the new MP about one year after its release, I almost can't wait to get it at work, however if it came with a few internal drive bays and a couple of PCIe slots at least, even if it were not so small and stylish (I have enough room in my studio for old MP sized machine, and I guess the volume of MP plus external items plus cables will be larger), I would have liked it much better. Besides, all this adapters and arrays will be a further expense of several hundred dollars (Euro here, but it's the same).

Fabrizio D'Agnano
Rome, Italy
early 2008 MacPro, BM Intensity Pro, early 2008 iMac, 2011 MacBook Pro, FCP7, FCPX, OSX 10.8.3


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Bill Davis
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 11:08:11 pm

Holly smokes - the thinking in this thread is amazing.

Lets see - about the ONLY thing I know for certain (based on public announcement at the WWDC) about the new MacPro is that Grant Petty and the Blackmagic folks have had a prototype in their shop for some months now.

What do they excel at again? Oh yeah = high-performance peripherals that leverage simple connections to extend the capabilities of computers.

Obviously there's no possible way they'd be using their strategic relationship with Apple to address stuff like storage and expansion and adding extra capacity to the base MacPro - via high speed interconnect - cuz that would be a SILLY thing to do right? Nobody's gonna want to elegantly expand the new form factor, Right?

Everybody's gonna want to stack ugly multiple boxes on their desktops as shown in this photos. Surely nobody's got nearby rack space available (you know, kinda like the form factor of many BMD units right now!??)

Yep, it's gonna look JUST like the photo when you get yours set up.

Except that you'll probably also have coat hangers and mini-grip arms hanging off it to dress your cables, cuz that's the level of aesthetic expectation that a new MacPro user will surely possess.

I get it now.

And of course, NOBODY here would trade that extra weight and heft and portability for a simpler form factor that is SCREAMINGLY fast - and that you don't HAVE to use for mounting disk slots that you might not even use any more.

I mean, look at how dismally the MBAir has done with so few slots and connections. Clearly those have been a total failure.

This post is a sure keeper.

I want to revisit it in about 5 years to remind myself why nobody bought into the new MacPro eco-system cuz they all figured it was just too "cabley" for their tastes

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Michael Gissing
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 4, 2013 at 11:41:43 pm

Time for some creative engineering like a Repackintosh. Take the new Mac Pro (subject to availability & cost), pull it all apart and repack everything including Tbolt PCIe breakouts & hard drives into an old MacPro case.

Next, saw the extra bits of metal off the MacPro tower and rackmount. Voila.


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Bill Davis
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 12:28:52 am

Why does this remind me of back when a "real camera" was a shoulder mount rig - and some of us - who were starting to become impressed with the quality of the new smaller camcorders - laughed about gutting a Betacam and rigging a modern handycam into a "fake lens" mount - knowing that 95% of our clients would find the footage totally fine and would happily pay the "big shop" rates so long as it looked like we have a suitably "BIG" camera form factor on our shoulders.

I remember laughing about needing to train ourselves to grunt and stretch our backs whenever we set the "fake big camera" down so it looked like we were still hoisting 50 pounds rather than the 8 pounds of the handy cams.

Kinda similar concept here?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Michael Gissing
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 2:41:01 am

Totally different concept here Bill as I am making a light hearted joke.

But do have a look at all the shoulder rigs that are being sold so that DSLR form factor cameras can be hand held with some degree of usefulness and bolt on viewfinders like Zacuto.

Good form factor actually matters and whilst I hear the concerns of many that proper rack mounting and 'in the box' slots are good, I am trying to add humour and get the dubious honour of coining the term "Repackintosh" which others may, no doubt, take seriously.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 11:18:01 am

I'm still hoping for JetPacPro™.

Dual inverted MacPros strapped to the back that provide enough lift to make you believe you can fly.

Flight controllers are Thunderbolt v2, of course.


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John Davidson
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 10:01:20 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm still hoping for JetPacPro™.

Dual inverted MacPros strapped to the back that provide enough lift to make you believe you can fly.

Flight controllers are Thunderbolt v2, of course."


Behold the first firmware update!







This is what happens when you put bootcamp and windows on it.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 10:15:52 pm

Precisely, Mr Davidson.

Here it is running Mavericks.







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Scott Thomas
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 7, 2013 at 8:12:54 am

I knew of a local production company that took their JVC KY-2000 and painted it grey so it would look more like a Ikegami HL79.

Nothing would shock me. :)


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Mitch Ives
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 6:27:21 pm

It all depends on the cost. Not just the cost of the new MacPro, but the total cost for all of the peripherals needed. If that total is an order of magnitude higher than what we spent getting the old MacPro operational then I think there will be a problem.

If Apple drop this MacPro on the market for $2,000 then I think everyone will jump onboard. If it's $3-3,500 then I think you'll hear crickets...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 7:21:03 pm

If you think your going to get 12 cores and 2 GPUs for less than 3500 you are the definition of an optomist.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Alan
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 7:34:13 pm

Yeah I think they'll have different configs within the range that Mac Pros have been sold at ($3000 and up) I think they'll be giving you an extra GPU and thunderbolt ports instead of the internal storage.

If they did have a low option one at $2500 or $2800 they will sell a lot to the high end Imac crowd.

I wonder if they'll have an update price on the next FCP X or that was a one time price cut from $1000. Upgrades were always $300 anyway. That would be my guess - new app new price, in keeping with their no charges for point upgrades Itunes/App store policy.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Mitch Ives
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 8:08:36 pm

I agree, which was my point. When the true price is announced, and then you add all the peripherals, I think the total cost will give pause. Will people buy it... you bet. Will it be too rich for many people... probably

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 8:11:33 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Will it be too rich for many people... probably"

So why, then, all the uproar about the death of the MacPro when people didn't want to pay for them?


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Mitch Ives
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 9:09:35 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So why, then, all the uproar about the death of the MacPro when people didn't want to pay for them?
"


Because there will always be people who have to have it... the 3D demo Apple showed was an example.

Having said that, after waiting for so long, a great many of us were thinking that the new MacPro would follow the industry trend and provide more capability for less money... as every other Mac I've ever owned has.

I personally don't think this will. When I add the cost of all the TB adapters, cables, raids, 3rd party I/O devices, etc. I can see that I'll be spending a lot more.

TB raids are all turn key. I built my own 8-drive disc arrays and used eSATA PCI cards to run them. They all cost considerably less than the TB raids I'm seeing.

Then there's the fact that all external peripherals tend to cost more than internal ones. Dropping a BR burner in my MP was cheap. External ones are not. Fortunately, I don't feel the need to add one to the new machines.

And the 800lb. Gorilla in the room that a lot of us are avoiding is how well will all these TB peripherals play together when there are six different kinds of them daisy chained? Regardless of how many ports they have I'll wager that there is a single controller chip. Will this end up being like the dark ages of SCSI? I'm trying to remain optimistic.

Right now I'm using one TB peripheral most of the time. I'm seeing discussions that using several of them isn't idiot-proof.

Does this mean that I don't want one? Hell no, I'd love one. I can afford it, but can I justify it as a business decision? Probably not... given the changes our industry is experiencing. Fortunately there should be plenty of people that can justify it...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 9:57:05 pm

[Mitch Ives] "I personally don't think this will. When I add the cost of all the TB adapters, cables, raids, 3rd party I/O devices, etc. I can see that I'll be spending a lot more. "

Only if you want to.

Surely, you will need to be a TB to PCIe enclosure and go from there.

There are 6 TB ports on the MacPro, so I'm not sure how many devices you'll need to daisy chain, realistically.

I, too, am curious about price. I'm sure it will be in line with current MacPros. It's one socket motherboard will help, but dual GPUS and PCIe storage will bring the cost back up.


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James Culbertson
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 10:10:28 pm

I guess I still don't get it. I've always had to purchase lots of peripherals just like I have had lots of cables going this way and that. Remember when all our SCSI peripherals became obsolete? Graphics cards, RAM, hard drives all become obsolete within 5 years or so. What about going from OS9 to OS10 and having to purchase upgrades for all our software. PowerPC to Intel... and so on.

Every 5 years or so there is a new generation of hardware or OS that necessitates reving our entire working platform.

Things are very cheap compared to what they used to cost. I remember my first Philips CD Burner cost $2000. Now I can buy a Pioneer BluRay/DVD/CS burner for $200 or or less.

If someone in this business cannot afford to spend $10,000 in computer/peripheral costs every 3 years or so they probably need to get some business advice or move to another career.


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Nicholas Kleczewski
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 2:59:19 pm

Cool, literally the only "extra" item there that anyone in a professional environment doesn't deal with already is the external video box connection. Any pro environment is already running a cable out to mass storage, not using internal at all, not using the internal drive much as it isn't blu-ray or even needed at all, etc.

Also, you could wrap your video I/O, fibre, whatever you wanted into a single external magma expansion chassis. Disconnect and take your MacPro with you for a job. Traveling with a current mac pro is a nightmare.

Its not a non-issue to be sure. But the people really complaining about cabling can't possibly be arguing from a professional standpoint here, its ludicrous.

Director, Editor, Colorist
http://www.trsociety.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 4:29:19 pm

[Nicholas Kleczewski] "Its not a non-issue to be sure. But the people really complaining about cabling can't possibly be arguing from a professional standpoint here, its ludicrous."

While there are already a ton of cables on the back of my MacPro, by using the r2 I will be doubling the amount. And many of these external boxes will require their own power supplies as well, so more cables + more redundant power supplies. As much as the photo at the top was a gross exaggeration, the concept that the r2 is much smaller and lighter is also an exaggeration - it's smaller and lighter because many of the necessary components are still there but tethered externally by not inexpensive Tbolt cables. It's like making your car lighter by taking the engine out and putting it in a trailer attached to your car.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Marcus Moore
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 4:54:03 pm

That's true. But Pro environments have been dealing with keeping the hardware "out of sight, out of mind" for years now. In a real client oriented suite, all the real gear is hidden away save monitors, keyboard and any other control surfaces.

And thankfully the price on TB cables has come down. A 2m cable is 40 bucks, which easily gets the peripherals into a soundproof/vented box, or thru the a wall into an equipment room. And let's not forget you don't need a long cable for every external device; only devices that eat the bandwidth on a controller [a RedRocket card], or when you reach your maximum chain length of 6 devices. Right now a short .5m cable still costs you $30. I hope we'll see even shorter lengths at presumably lower prices for daisy-chaining. Like Elgato's 1.5ft cable but for $15-$20.

As I've been saying elsewhere, I think the flip-side to the cabling issue is that every user gets the raw horsepower in the MacPro- whether they need very little expansion (video I/O and external storage), or they have 36 TB peripherals and max out the ports.

And while it would be great for TB2 to be able to support 16x PCIe cards, with the GPUs internal, I'm not sure I see what other cards need that kind of bandwidth.



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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 5:29:45 pm

[Marcus Moore] "That's true. But Pro environments have been dealing with keeping the hardware "out of sight, out of mind" for years now. In a real client oriented suite, all the real gear is hidden away save monitors, keyboard and any other control surfaces."

"And at just 9.9 inches tall with a diameter of just 6.6 inches, it’s a pro desktop computer that can actually sit on your desk." - that's Apple's marketing description - doesn't sound like a machine room type of computer to me. Everything about the R2MP is about having it on the desktop - it's not rack-mounted, it swivels to reveal the i/o ports - why have a snazy design if your sticking it in a back room? Apple designed this for the desktop - where you or I might want to put it is another matter.

[Marcus Moore] "As I've been saying elsewhere, I think the flip-side to the cabling issue is that every user gets the raw horsepower in the MacPro- whether they need very little expansion (video I/O and external storage), or they have 36 TB peripherals and max out the ports."

Agreed. In that way it's similar to X - Apple supplies the minimum configuration and third parties supply the options for the power users.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Marcus Moore
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 6:36:09 pm

Agreed- Apple is positioning the MacPro to sit on the desk. I guess I meant to say all add-ons can be (via just a few TB cables) shunted to an equipment closet or another room.

And I think I've read there are even longer cables available now. 20-30 meter or so I remember.



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Craig Seeman
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 4:59:43 pm

In the old MacPro, after adding a 2nd GPU to match the new MacPro, you have 2 4x PCIe slots. Additionally you have internal HDDs which will now have to be external. That's adding 3 things.

Unlike the old MacPro those three Thunderbolt things you add, can also be moved to any other current Mac with Thunderbolt as needed.

Unlike the old MacPro, with 6 Thunderbolt ports you can add several other Thunderbolt devices.

While you certainly may disagree, I suspect many potential customers will appreciate the interchangeability with other Macs as well as the increased expandability.

Thinks might be slightly more inconvenient in making the two PCIe slots along with the drives external but the advantages probably outweigh the disadvantages for more.



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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 5:43:31 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Unlike the old MacPro those three Thunderbolt things you add, can also be moved to any other current Mac with Thunderbolt as needed. "

That's nice, but my edit room isn't set up that way. Other than a DVD burner everything else - Raids, i/o cards, monitors - are needed by each machine at all times - sharing doesn't enter into it.

[Craig Seeman] "Unlike the old MacPro, with 6 Thunderbolt ports you can add several other Thunderbolt devices."

This is like the X straw man argument whereby you compare X to Legend. Of course the r2MPro is better than the old MacPro. The question is whether it's better than the Dell 7600 or whether it's the optimal design for the new MPro.

[Craig Seeman] "Thinks might be slightly more inconvenient in making the two PCIe slots along with the drives external but the advantages probably outweigh the disadvantages for more."

If the price is right it could appeal to more customers overall at the cost of losing some of the high end workstation users, which seems to be in line with Apple's overall strategy.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Culbertson
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 5:52:37 pm

[Herb Sevush] "If the price is right it could appeal to more customers overall at the cost of losing some of the high end workstation users, which seems to be in line with Apple's overall strategy."

Do you mean losing high end workstation users who are fixated on cables? ;-)


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James Culbertson
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 6:01:26 pm

And to take it farther how did all you cable challenged pros deal with all the plethora of audio and video cables we used to have going every which way. I still have a lot of that snaking around.

And clients are constantly bringing in hard drives withe content to copy or use. Lately, I've been working off of daisy chained FW800 portable drives in FCPX because I don't have time to copy the content over to my dedicated array.

Anyone who is all that concerned about cabling is probably in the wrong profession.

As far as I can see I will have less base cabling with the new MacPro and Thunderbolt peripherals. So it isn't the case that all pros will have more cabling.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 6:48:16 pm

[James Culbertson] "And to take it farther how did all you cable challenged pros deal with all the plethora of audio and video cables we used to have going every which way. I still have a lot of that snaking around."

Me too.

But Apple's claim is to have made a "a pro desktop computer that can actually sit on your desk." They are the one's showing a single untethered cute little machine that's so small you just want to hug it. This whole thread is simply a reaction to Apple's marketing.

The r2MPro in the hands of most pro's will NOT be seated on a desktop because it would look something like the picture that started this thread. The argument that the older MPro would also look ridiculous is irrelevant because nobody was claiming it should be on a desktop.

The fact that I have a ton of cables already is not a convincing argument that it shouldn't bother me to double the amount. It's not a deal breaker, price will be that, but my own preference would be for something like the ProMax One, that is actually designed for my workflow, as opposed to the r2 which is designed to sit on the imaginary desk of an imaginary editor who's connected to nothing other than his own assh*le.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 6:52:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "One, that is actually designed for my workflow, as opposed to the r2 which is designed to sit on the imaginary desk of an imaginary editor who's connected to nothing other than his own assh*le."

So why haven't you made the switch to a PC based workflow?

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 6:58:58 pm

FCP7 is still too good.

Herb says it takes a least a few years to switch NLE's, I think it takes a few years for NLE's to catch up with some of FCP7s capabilities.

It's either half full, or half empty. I don't really know.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 7:36:00 pm

[Steve Connor] "So why haven't you made the switch to a PC based workflow?"

Waiting on price info and still trying to decide which NLE will be next. If the price is good and I'm stuck with X, then the r2 gets the cash. I'm trying to figure out the least bad option, and it takes time.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 7:41:50 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Waiting on price info and still trying to decide which NLE will be next. If the price is good and I'm stuck with X, then the r2 gets the cash. I'm trying to figure out the least bad option, and it takes time.
"


I'm lucky it was easy switch for me but we should know in the next few months where FCPX is heading, hopefully that will help you make a decision.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 7:55:53 pm

[Steve Connor] "we should know in the next few months where FCPX is heading, "

I do hope the supposed MacPro FCPX update that has been sort of announced by Apple is a good update, not just some behind the scenes MacPro sweetening to X.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 8:05:37 pm

[Steve Connor] "we should know in the next few months where FCPX is heading, hopefully that will help you make a decision."

I doubt it. I figure X is X and I'm not expecting any major changes.

My two major needs for an NLE are robust multicam handling and native ProRes workflow. PPro has ProRes but not good multicam, Avid has good multicam but not good native ProRes. I find it hard to accept, but at the moment FCPX is the only system out there that meets those two specific requirements.

Lightworks is my last hope, and I need to wait till they release the OSX version to test it because I currently don't have a PC editing station.

So in the end I might wind up choosing X even though I dislike EVERYHING about it's design philosophy.

The universe has a wicked sense of humor.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 10:59:43 pm

What's bad for you about Avid and ProRes--that you have to rewrap?


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Andy Neil
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 6, 2013 at 2:08:58 am

I'll tell you what I hate about it. Avid's handling of ProRes 4x4 (with alphas) is absolute sh*t. Now that I think about it, Avid is pathetic with alpha channels in general unless produced in Animation or DNxHD codecs.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 6, 2013 at 4:42:38 am

[Andy Neil] " Avid's handling of ProRes 4x4 (with alphas) is absolute sh*t."

I don't think I've ever had to transcode 4X4 with Alphas. So, you can't do it? Or, you can, but it corrupts files? Or, you can, but you have to take five extra steps? "sh*t" doesn't really explain much.


[Andy Neil] "Now that I think about it, Avid is pathetic with alpha channels in general unless produced in Animation or DNxHD codecs."

Pathetic? Do you mean an attached alpha on import? I don't think I've had any problems masking with alphas on rewrapped ProRes material. So, how do you mean pathetic? And, is this experience with 6 or 7?

I'm not trying to be a JackA by asking all this, btw. I'm just trying to find out where the walls are. My experience with ProRes in Media Composer has been pretty good.


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Chris Harlan
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 6, 2013 at 4:54:14 am

I see it was a know bug introduced in 6.5. I wonder if it has been fixed in 7.


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Andy Neil
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 6, 2013 at 6:56:56 am

Not sure if 7 fixed it or not, but I was talking about 6.5. Imported ProRes 4x4 show no alpha present (there is a separate issue with 4x4 in 6.03). Imported tif image sequences showed the alpha, but changed the colors of the image. Avid doesn't seem to like pre-multiplied alphas and there's no way for it to read the alpha differently so renders in other programs have to fit Avid's narrow guidelines in order to appear properly.

For a program that has 10-15 years experience on pretty much any other NLE, it's handling of alphas is shockingly poor. Even when it does it correctly, it's still a poor implementation. You take the same file into any other NLE and it just works. Avid makes you jump through hoops.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 6, 2013 at 12:48:28 pm

Yes the idea of re-wrapping 14 Terabytes of material somehow doesn't appeal to me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 6, 2013 at 5:07:55 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Yes the idea of re-wrapping 14 Terabytes of material somehow doesn't appeal to me.
"


Well, there's that.


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Jeff Meyer
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 7, 2013 at 6:20:38 am

Would you really need to rewrap 14TB? Any multicam project I've had has been fairly contained with no or minimal need for archival footage or to become archival footage. Seems like moving to DNxHD with any future multicam work would be viable. But workflows are very different from shop to shop. While my multicam projects stay failry contained, your multicam edits could involve archived footage that exists as ProRes today.

Alternatively, I've had brilliant luck with Premiere CC and multicam. I cut 9 angles on a 2 year old laptop. In a coffee shop. Because I could. Rumour is there's a nasty bug out there, but I never encountered it.

Either way you go workflow is going to have to change a bit.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 7, 2013 at 4:01:58 pm

[Jeff Meyer] "Would you really need to rewrap 14TB? Any multicam project I've had has been fairly contained with no or minimal need for archival footage or to become archival footage. Seems like moving to DNxHD with any future multicam work would be viable. But workflows are very different from shop to shop. While my multicam projects stay failry contained, your multicam edits could involve archived footage that exists as ProRes today."

This has nothing to do with archival footage. Every spring I shoot 14 Terrabytes of ProRes material for a 26 show cooking series shot with 5 cameras. How long do you think it would take Avid to re-wrap this amount of footage?

[Jeff Meyer] "Alternatively, I've had brilliant luck with Premiere CC and multicam. I cut 9 angles on a 2 year old laptop. "

Can you match back into the multicam object in PPro, can you intercut into the same sequence shots from different multicam clips and then have complete reference to those clips as you refine your edit ? I have been told that PPro can't do this, but maybe I've been led astray. If your multicam edit was something other than a music video I'd love to hear more details.


[Jeff Meyer] "Either way you go workflow is going to have to change a bit."

I'm hoping it can change for the better, not the other way around.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeff Meyer
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 12:56:52 am

My only CC multicam project so far was a music video, but it was created for a 50:9 display which presents a unique set of challenges. For this one I elected to do a lot of split screen (double and triple horizontal) and added some AE backgrounds when filling with a single angle or using a split didn't make sense. While it was a music video it was a lot more involved than a simple line cut.

For my split screen elements I found the easiest way was to take a single shot, hold Alt/Option and drag the shot up to V2. Now I have a second instance of the multicam and am able to switch angles on V2 without impacting what's already there on V1. Not quite matching back to the source that lives within the multicam sequence, but you can edit it as an individual clip adding or removing length, or even do a second cut line cut on V2.

If you're on Mountain Lion Premiere works natively (64 bit) with ProRes, so there's also that. They've also done away with the multicam window and embedded it into the Program monitor. You'll have to manually add the multicam buttons to the monitor. I would recommend evaluating it when time allows. I was expecting split screen to be a pain when working with multicam, but was quite pleasantly surprised.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 2:17:34 pm

[Jeff Meyer] "For my split screen elements I found the easiest way was to take a single shot, hold Alt/Option and drag the shot up to V2. Now I have a second instance of the multicam and am able to switch angles on V2 without impacting what's already there on V1. Not quite matching back to the source that lives within the multicam sequence, but you can edit it as an individual clip adding or removing length, or even do a second cut line cut on V2."

If you had made real cuts, deletions, in the original multicam would the "second instance" of the multicam reflect those deletions, or would it show the original uncut multicam?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeff Meyer
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 4:58:46 pm

It appears that deletions that happen on V1 do not impact V2. They really act like clips on the timeline except you can replace the angle.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 6:56:54 pm

The current MacPro case was designed to be looked at as well, or at least, grate fresh cheese on your lunch pasta. This did not stop people from putting in closets.

Thunderbolt allows a much easier extension because, by it's very definition, you can have any port any where as you are extending both data and display x6. You don't have to run all connections* directly back to the mothership, just several fat pipe tentacles.

*Edit for too many words


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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 7:16:29 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " You don't have to run all connections* directly back to the mothership, just several fat pipe tentacles."

So when you rotate the pod to get access to the i/o ports I guess those large thick pipe tentacles are just going to effortlessly glide along with it. Beautiful. It seems as well thought out as apple's cinema display connector boxes.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 7:21:53 pm

It is much harder to reach behind a current MacPro and find your way around the small PCI card abyss.

For the most part, unless I need to swap a Thunderbolt cable, I will not need to spin the JetPacPro around.

You know what the most convenient ports are on my current MacPro? The Sonnet Qio.

Why?

Because the PCI is extended and I can put it in a more comfortable position rather than trying to attach everything to the back of the Mac where I can't see it, or have to haul all 40ish pounds of MacPro off of the floor every time I need to load a media card or attach a sata drive.


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Craig Seeman
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 6:16:28 pm

[Herb Sevush] "That's nice, but my edit room isn't set up that way. Other than a DVD burner everything else - Raids, i/o cards, monitors - are needed by each machine at all times - sharing doesn't enter into it."

Granted there are plenty who are tied down like that but, just my hunch, there's an increasing number of people who need to (or would like to) move peripherals around.

[Herb Sevush] "The question is whether it's better than the Dell 7600 or whether it's the optimal design for the new MPro."

It depends on how many 4x PCIe slots you need vs what 6 TB can handle.

Apple probably is aiming to increase MacPro sales with their new design and specs and my guess is they'll probably reach more people with the Tube then a traditional desktop. Sure it wont suit some people but there are many more who would consider this given the size and interchangeability of Thunderbolt.

[Herb Sevush] "If the price is right it could appeal to more customers overall at the cost of losing some of the high end workstation users, which seems to be in line with Apple's overall strategy."

Yes Apple is becoming a "commodity" company.. I think some people are seeing it's not "consumer" vs abandoned "pro" but how to make formerly Pro limited devices more appealing to wider markets. There's certainly up and downside to this but Apple is banking on the upside leading in increased sales and/or increased margins.



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Ty Vann
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 4:40:19 pm

You are going to get the most powerful Mac ever, and you are worried about cables? I didn't know cables were ever such an enormous problem. Surely, pros have better things to worry about.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 8:16:04 pm

[Ty Vann] "Surely, pros have better things to worry about."

You must be new here. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Fabrizio D'Agnano
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 5, 2013 at 9:25:50 pm

[Ty Vann] "You are going to get the most powerful Mac ever, and you are worried about cables? I didn't know cables were ever such an enormous problem. Surely, pros have better things to worry about."

Indeed. But personally speaking I don't see it as an all or nothing question. I mean, I'll be very happy to get the most powerful Mac ever once it's available. Only, I would have been even happier if it came with a couple of PCIe slots to move the e-sata and the real time HD output card I already own, plus some internal storage.

Fabrizio D'Agnano
Rome, Italy
early 2008 MacPro, BM Intensity Pro, early 2008 iMac, 2011 MacBook Pro, FCP7, FCPX, OSX 10.8.3


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Bob Zelin
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 6, 2013 at 3:15:16 pm

I am always fascinated by professional people that start to cry when "Apple" doesn't make everything for them. If it were not for ATTO, Blackmagic, Matrox, AJA, etc., etc. no one would have taken FCP seriously in the first place. This means that THIRD PARTY COMPANIES make an Apple product work for you. It's always been this way - in every business. When you are a professional - photographer, musician, golfer, etc. you have TONS OF STUFF that is part of your professional package. And amateurs look at "all that stuff" and say "how can you figure all this stuff out". That's what we do - we are not on a Mac Book Air with FCP-X and nothing else, and do our job. It's the same stupid analogy as the guy who says "all you need is a pen and paper to be in this business". WE NEED STUFF - lots of stuff, that plugs in, and does all kinds of stuff that THE OTHER GUYS don't have. Big drive arrays, special IO products, special monitors, scopes, outboard audio gear, etc, etc, etc. IT WILL ALWAYS BE THIS WAY, and when it's not, no one will be making a living at this.

The original AJA I/O came out when the AVID Adreanline came out (same NAB) and that made FCP really take off. (oooh - another box that I have to buy). If you have a Mac Pro right now, you probably have tons of stuff inside it, and outside of it, connected to every port - tons of wires. And for the people that don't, - -well, you have TONS of plug in's for AE, etc. that are in addition to your basic Adobe package, so have a "virtual mess of wires" on your hard drives.

And for the genius that said at the top of this thread "just get a Dell" - if you are a PROFESSIONAL PC user, you buy this -

http://www.hp.com/united-states/campaigns/workstations/z820_features.html

not a toy like this -
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-t7600/fs

There will certainly be a rack mount for the new Mac Pro (from companies like Markertek, etc), and no shortage of TBolt2 expansion chassis from companies like Magma, Sonnet, and Cubix. And like always, we will have all kinds of crap hanging off these computers, including big drive arrays, complex networks, fancy schmancy monitors, super duper audio monitors, etc. That's the way it's always been, and that's the way it will always be.

Now get back to work.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 6, 2013 at 5:14:35 pm

Somebody needs some coffee.


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Fabrizio D'Agnano
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 6, 2013 at 5:40:49 pm

[Bob Zelin] "And amateurs look at "all that stuff" and say "how can you figure all this stuff out". That's what we do"

If the two PCIe slots and that couple of esata ports were present on the new MP, I'd have probably added a couple of fake external boxes with cables just the same. I love the effect they have on those amateurs :-)

Fabrizio D'Agnano
Rome, Italy
early 2008 MacPro, BM Intensity Pro, early 2008 iMac, 2011 MacBook Pro, FCP7, FCPX, OSX 10.8.3


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Craig Alan
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 6, 2013 at 6:51:50 pm

Well put.

A professional user is someone who makes money using the gear or uses the gear as part of the way they make a living.

A lot of folks fall into these groups who were not in the traditional pool. A pool by the way that has only been around for about 23 years and took over half of that to be the professional tool set. Not much of a tradition among traditions.

The high end is not going away, but putting down any one who uses less expensive/complex installations is completely missing the boat.

My father's generation used the term "a real pro" as a compliment, meaning the person lived up to a high standard of craft and efficiency. By contrast "a hack" was still a professional but did not live up to this standard. A lot of professional TV productions created by pros using all these high-end tools are hack jobs. The judgment is not necessarily personal. TV and Film production is a huge collaborative effort. A colorist on a movie might well be a real pro and a true artist yet the movie is still a paint-by-the-numbers hack job.

I would guess that there are more people employed using high-end installations of this gear now than ever. But they are no longer the only fish in the pond. Insulting other users because they do not use these high-end installations is a sign of insecurity. And insulting companies that make products for them is self-defeating.

The Internet is fast becoming the real pond in which the vast majority of multimedia produced (using both high and low end gear) will be distributed. And although the production standards are certainly higher on average for productions that use the high-end gear, there will be more and more productions shot and distributed using prosumer level gear that are much more interesting and artistic than what is being distributed now on cable and in theatres.

Because the productions will not cost as much to make, there will be more variety and much greater experimentation. The serious hobbyist not that long ago shot using 16mm film cams and edited literally cutting and taping the film into a sequence. But unlike now, they had no way to distribute their passion and no way to make a living from it.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Bernard Newnham
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 7, 2013 at 9:44:10 am

[Chris Harlan] "Somebody needs some coffee."

But he's right.

If you're making tv or anything else, nobody really cares how you did it or what gear you used.

Computers - the generally used black box on the floor full of drives and cards - aren't like that to be fashion statements, they are there to do a job efficiently, and they evolved that way. They aren't like this any more...



...because that isn't a practical shape to do the jobs we need to do these days. They've evolved to a general shape like this....



or this ....



..because that does the job. Taking away the ability to add and remove cards and drives is what politicians in the UK would call "a very brave choice". Apple tends to get away with this sort of thing because it's Apple and can do no wrong for some of us. But a cylinder isn't the way other companies think computers should be shaped, and I rather think they may be right.

B

Bernie


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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 7, 2013 at 4:05:09 pm

Your second example is just your first example sitting on it's side - a little bigger maybe but not exactly a major revision.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 8:21:47 am

[Bernard Newnham] "[Chris Harlan] "Somebody needs some coffee."

But he's right. "


Of course he's right. Coffee has little or no effect on being right or wrong, though--personally--I've noticed that it keeps me from grumping on people in the morning. Mostly.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 7, 2013 at 4:25:56 pm

[Bob Zelin] "And for the genius that said at the top of this thread "just get a Dell" - if you are a PROFESSIONAL PC user, you buy this - "

Bob, I think I'm the genius but my actual quote was

"Of course the r2MPro is better than the old MacPro. The question is whether it's better than the Dell 7600 or whether it's the optimal design for the new MPro."

I didn't mention the HP Z820 because their is no question, the new MPro will not be as good as a top of the line HP. I was trying to offer an alternative that I'm guessing will be in line with the price of the r2MPro. I could have referenced the Z620 but I mentioned the Dell because even though I know previous models had a bad reputation someone I work with who designs systems recommended the 7600 to me. Are you reacting to it out of a sense of history, or have you or someone you know had bad experiences with the Dell 7600?

As for the rest of your rant I agree that I've always had a multitude of peripherals tied into any editing computer PC or MAC. My problem with the r2MPro is that it requires me to get new peripherals in order to use my existing peripherals, at additional cost in space, power and finances. Now if the price is right and the r2 plus these new peripheral peripherals come in at a reasonable price, then no problem, but don't try to sell me, as Apple is actively doing, that this is going to sit on my desk without an octopus of cables hanging off it - a little honesty in marketing would be nice, but then why start now I guess.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jim Hines
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 7, 2013 at 4:24:11 pm

Back in the day of the pre x os and Motorola processors you could make the argument that an Apple computer was different. These days, once you get beyond the subjective aesthetic appeal of the case; what are you really left with?


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Herb Sevush
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 7, 2013 at 4:28:37 pm

[Jim Hines] "These days, once you get beyond the subjective aesthetic appeal of the case; what are you really left with?"

Thunderbolt 2.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jim Hines
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 7, 2013 at 4:48:51 pm

And as soon as you're done replacing all of your current peripherals with TB capable peripherals - a new format will be rolled out - promising a nano second or two more throughput - LOL - : )


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Bernard Newnham
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 7, 2013 at 8:25:02 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Your second example is just your first example sitting on it's side - a little bigger maybe but not exactly a major revision."

An evolution, not a major revision. Those little boxes could only take a couple of drives, and graphics cards hadn't been invented. By the same token you could insist that an Ivybridge Core i7 is a little bigger maybe than an 8086. Just like biological evolution, things change in response to outside needs and influences.

Your standard box on the floor isn't intended to be a major revision, just a nondescript box which does a job. If you decide to do something that doesn't follow the evolved form, you'd just better be right. Those who buy the new Macpro will find out if they are.

Bernie


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Bob Zelin
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 7, 2013 at 9:10:30 pm

this is correct - this is evolution, not revolution. In 10 years from now, let's just say we have single CPU's that can render as fast as a full render farm today, and each drive is 1 Pedabyte. So -isn't this just evolution, and not revolution? People will still want to watch the same crappy "reality" shows - perhaps in 10 years, "everyone" will be able to make their own "reality show" because the technology is so cheap (just like every band today makes their own CD's, and no one has a clue as to what to listen to except for Lady Gaga and Taylor Swift). So there will be zillions of "indy" TV shows (it's already happening on Vimeo and YouTube, and this is just the beginning), and it will continue to chip away at our business. And it's only because we will have 40 core processors, and massive drive arrays on an SSD stick that cost $200 bucks to buy. Even when that happens - it's nothing new - its just evolution.
And the ONLY way we will be able to MAKE A LIVING at that point (when every iMac equivalent does 4K processing with 1 Pedabyte of storage, and 40 cores - all for $2800 bucks) - will be if we are doing 28K video holographic - it doesn't make a difference what ridiculous example I state - as long as it's DIFFERENT, state of the art, and people are willing to PAY MORE MONEY for it than what they can do themselves.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


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Fabrizio D'Agnano
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 7, 2013 at 10:12:30 pm

[Bob Zelin] "And the ONLY way we will be able to MAKE A LIVING at that point (when every iMac equivalent does 4K processing with 1 Pedabyte of storage, and 40 cores - all for $2800 bucks) - will be if we are doing 28K video holographic"

As long as you find somebody wanting to pay more money for something they might even not be able to broadcast just because it's been produced with something prosumers couldn't afford to buy. The satellite channel I produce contents for, which belongs to the most important broadcast platform here, still receives SD IMX file delivery. And if it were HD if would not be 4k or 3D. And this for a long time to come. They buy contents from me, in form of about 12 to 15 26' documentaries per year that are broadcast here and sold in other countries, and allow me to feed and raise my three sons with my work, because the product I delivery has a more interesting content and a better look than what people can find free on the internet. And I work in a field where you can find a lot on youtube or vimeo. They don't care much about where, how or what I work with as long as my videos pass editorial and technical QC and receive great feedback from people paying the yearly subscription. I see a lot of flavors in the video content production professional area, ranging from the large production house to the event videographer, maybe it's not so easy to say what's right or wrong for all.

Fabrizio D'Agnano
Rome, Italy
early 2008 MacPro, BM Intensity Pro, early 2008 iMac, 2011 MacBook Pro, FCP7, FCPX, OSX 10.8.3


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Craig Alan
Re: The New Mac
on Jul 8, 2013 at 5:12:10 am

Not sure about this. For starters a NLE is just one tool of many that is needed for production. Democratizing anything that was previously only in the hands of an elite class is revolutionary. Does democratizing carry with it the negative effect of old standards being compromised? Absolutely.
But it also carries with it far greater choices including truly interesting new expressions.

The elite motion picture industry, as good as their product is, and they do keep pushing the envelope technically, still produces stuff that is often safe, mind-less, and condescending. They also employ a lot of gifted craftsman who are good at their jobs. Spending upwards of a $100,000,000 to produce one unimportant film whose target audience is the popcorn date crowd is obscene. You know why people might turn to Vimeo and the like – a) to see something different that can afford to take chances and b) because if it sucks it doesn’t cost them over $50 a pop (snacks included).

Has the whole production process become dirt-cheap? No it hasn't. Has it become affordable to anyone who seriously wants to pursue it? Sort of. But if there is no money to be made for the new middle class of production, then it will fall out of fashion and again be left to the elite.

U-tube can take care of the cat videos, the voyeuristic and very short reality clips and goof ball crap. That’s what millions of people are already uploading. You’d think that would drive the networks away from this genre but it hasn’t. The pro versions are soapy manipulated garbage and I hope the mass uploads drives them out of that business.

Let’s look at the reality from the point of view of a middle class filmmaker who wants to shoot a narrative. What do you need? For starters, you need a script. (There was a time when only an elite class could read and write. And computers certainly took away the need to have good handwriting or be able to touch type accurately). Maybe a copy of final draft or any of the free programs on-line. You’ll need a camera. You want it to look pro or “film” like so you need a large sensor camera. At the lowest price point as of the last year, we are looking maybe $6000-$7000 (Black Magic Cinema with as much lens as you can afford). Though most of the serious contenders are still going for Red or Alexa at many times that or maybe the Canon c300 at several times that. You’ll also need a couple of batteries, chargers, a case, a tripod, a dolly, and perhaps a steady cam rig, and/or a jib rig, and/or a track and dolly, and/or a car mount, etc. Anywhere from $2000-$6000 (and up). You need lights and grip equipment – another $10,000 at least. Forget about day light temp HMIs for outdoor shots unless you want to rent. You’ll need audio gear – at least another $5000. You’ll need places to shoot and you’ll need to round up a crew and actors, which the truly ambitious can do but this requires the time to do it. Want to shoot green screen? Where? In your garage studio? Maybe rent a studio for those shots? Are you working at your day job? How’s managing your volunteer crew and cast coming along? And the collective group of these producers might be a threat to the entertainment market share of the elite but how are they making ends meet?

There are guys making 6 figures producing direct to Internet series. Most of them are pros or trained in professional practices and can be in line for pro gigs.

As for post, yes its way cheaper than it was when Avid bays were ½ mil and they still had to send the footage out of house for rendering. But in the last year the only difference is NLE software for $300 instead of $1000. Evolution for sure. Computers are about the same. Yeah they are way more powerful but the codecs demand this. When it dipped from $120,000 to 15,000 to set up a post computer, that was revolutionary. When the Sony vx1000 brought the entry-level camcorder down to $6000 that was revolutionary. But it looked like video and no one thought that film cams would die anytime soon.

What I would like to see is creative people being able to make a good living making artistic works in a variety of styles and genres and not the traditional elitist model where a single movie costs 10s of millions of dollars and the above the line folk are all millionaires.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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