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Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?

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Michael Largé
Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 9:17:00 pm

Do you think this is true and if so, why didn't Apple make it part of the initial release?

http://tinyurl.com/5wv3fnk


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Tom Daigon
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 9:23:37 pm

Damage control from a corp that thrives on silence and misdirection.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Greg Burke
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 10:09:58 pm

too little to late. If there cared about PROS they would have released this with these features intact. obviously not figuring out a way to open FCP7 projects files in FCPX was less of a priority then being able to open imovie projects.....


...i hate you apple

I wear many hats.
http://www.gregburkepost.com


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 1:00:33 am

I have to agree Tom.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 3:04:16 pm

[Tom Daigon] "Damage control from a corp that thrives on silence and misdirection."

Seriously, no. We know that Apple has been working with third-party hardware guys to add video output since before FCP X shipped. And This post by Philip Hodgetts was made on the day FCP X was released; Apple had already told him they were planning to add multicam and XML or some reasonable alternative.

Adding these features is not a reaction to the Internet freakout. This is just a typical case of Apple shipping a first-generation product with a stripped down feature set, with the full intention of building on it.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Tom Daigon
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 3:29:25 pm

Interesting speculation on your part. Only Apple knows the truth in this situation and based on their track record only they will be privy to it. What they say (or dont say) to developers also falls into the same category.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Chris Kenny
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 3:46:37 pm

[Tom Daigon] "Interesting speculation on your part. Only Apple knows the truth in this situation and based on their track record only they will be privy to it."

Apple has already told Studio Daily, Philip Hodgetts and David Pogue that they are, in fact, adding back video output, multicam, and XML or something that serves the same role. As I noted, Hodgetts was reporting this stuff on the day FCP X shipped, so it's just reaction to the outrage. The idea that Apple shipped a minimal first release but always intended to fill these sorts of feature gaps is not speculation at this point; it's established fact.

I know this is incompatible with the "Apple is deliberately abandoning pro users" narrative some people have had running in their heads for the last couple of years (originally as a consequence of having unreasonable expectations for how long it would take to write a 64-bit Cocoa successor). But that's because that narrative is wrong.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Tom Daigon
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 3:49:09 pm

I reiterate...

"Interesting speculation on your part. Only Apple knows the truth in this situation and based on their track record only they will be privy to it. What they say (or dont say) to developers also falls into the same category.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Chris Kenny
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 3:54:20 pm

[Tom Daigon] ""Interesting speculation on your part. Only Apple knows the truth in this situation and based on their track record only they will be privy to it. What they say (or dont say) to developers also falls into the same category."

Please explain which part of my post was speculation. The fact that these features are coming has been conveyed by Apple to several reliable parties (including a New York Times columnist) who have relayed it to the public, and the timing makes it entirely impossible for this to be a reaction to the Internet outrage.

It's hilarious to me the extent to which people will simply disregard or dismiss facts that are inconvenient for their arguments.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Tom Daigon
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 4:24:48 pm

Chris Kenny - "It's hilarious to me the extent to which people will simply disregard or dismiss facts that are inconvenient for their arguments."

There are no facts at this point, there are just words. Facts exist when there is physical evidence available. Its not what is said, it is what is done...

I find the naivete of folks desperate to believe pr from Apple (who has a long track record of disregard for their customers) and a policy that disdains any good communication (unless they are in damage control mode), is pathetic to me. Believe what you want if it makes you feel better. Only time will tell. For the moment FCP X either works for someone or it doesn't. The choice is up to the individual.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Chris Kenny
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 4:27:16 pm

[Tom Daigon] "There are no facts at this point, there are just words. Facts exist when there is physical evidence available. Its not what is said, it is what is done..."

This entire discussion is about Apple's intent. Words can convey facts about intent. Do you believe Apple is lying about its intent to add these features?

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Tom Daigon
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 4:29:59 pm

Chris, as I end this pointless dialog, its clear to me you have no concept of what a fact is. I think you need to consult a dictionary rather than keep blathering at this point.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 5:21:59 pm

[Tom Daigon] "Chris Kenny - "It's hilarious to me the extent to which people will simply disregard or dismiss facts that are inconvenient for their arguments.""

Mr. Kenny likes to counter arguments by referring to his words as "fact," while often citing hearsay to backup his arguments as though his message is absolute. As I've told him, the cumulative effect of his continuous and unrelenting attempts to counter other Creative Cows with the certainty he tries to project is beginning to grate on me.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 4:07:28 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Adding these features is not a reaction to the Internet freakout. This is just a typical case of Apple shipping a first-generation product with a stripped down feature set, with the full intention of building on it."

Chris,

Having now read very many of your posts I can't help but notice that you consistently speak with a POV that implies that your conjecture is "fact." Do you have an inside track, or is your ability to read minds better than the 50/50 of those Creative Cows whose own theories you consistently correct?

I'm not suggesting you're right or wrong about the things you postulate, just that the voice you give to your take on the inner workings of the minds at Apple is said with such great certainty.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 4:14:00 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Having now read very many of your posts I can't help but notice that you consistently speak with a POV that implies that your conjecture is "fact." Do you have an inside track, or is your ability to read minds better than the 50/50 of those Creative Cows whose own theories you consistently correct?

I'm not suggesting you're right or wrong about the things you postulate, just that the voice you give to your take on the inner workings of the minds at Apple is said with such great certaint"


Honestly, WTF? I am repeating things here that Final Cut Pro product managers have told to (among other people) a New York Times columnist, and people are trying to pretend these things are simply speculation on my part.

Seriously, it's all right here.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 5:02:37 pm

[Chris Kenny] "I am repeating things here that Final Cut Pro product managers have told to (among other people) a New York Times columnist, and people are trying to pretend these things are simply speculation on my part."

I'm actually glad you chose Pogue's NY Times article as the example to discuss. There are many other examples, but this one is perfect because you've chosen to cite a professional journalist in this case, which happens to be right up my alley.

As I've already mentioned elsewhere, David Pogue never quotes a single human being, alive or dead, from Apple by name, and there's been no official documented word yet released from Apple. So, the certainty with which you counter the arguments of others here by quoting what can best be characterized as "hearsay," is now beginning to have a cumulative effect that is starting to raise my hackles and the needle on my truth meter.

I am not a member of the Cow police, nor do I play one on TV, but as a journalist myself, and as one of the FCP leaders, and as someone who reads all things that come across the various FCP forums, I'm just letting you know that you've attracted my attention. and in the essence of fairness, I may ask you to support some of the facts you cite from time to time, which I hope you won't mind.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 5:11:21 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "As I've already mentioned elsewhere, David Pogue never quotes a single human being, alive or dead, from Apple by name, and there's been no official documented word yet released from Apple. So, the certainty with which you counter the arguments of others here by quoting what can best be characterized as "hearsay," is now beginning to have a cumulative effect that is starting to raise my hackles and the needle on my truth meter."

We have now heard essentially these same things from three different sources: Studio Daily, David Pogue, and Philip Hodgetts. You can choose to believe Apple is lying, or that all three of these sources (who all claim to have had direct independent contact with Apple) are lying about or consistently misinterpreting what Apple said. But these things seem quite unlikely. It is simply not reasonable at this point to continue to believe that Apple has no intent to add these features.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 5:32:07 pm

[Chris Kenny] "We have now heard essentially these same things from three different sources: Studio Daily, David Pogue, and Philip Hodgetts."

You're beginning to remind of the guy who wrote yesterday that FCP X is "'AWESOME" because, even though he's never used it, he's read the manual.

Again, you cite as fact quotes from three people who cite unnamed officials from Apple, who could just as easily be from Apple's public relations department, assigned to damage control detail.

Do you know a fact when you see one?


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 5:37:10 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Again, you cite as fact quotes from three people who cite unnamed officials from Apple, who could just as easily be from Apple's public relations department, assigned to damage control detail."

Pogue explicitly said he talked to "product managers". Anyway, this is just another way of saying "Apple is lying". Which is possible, but not very likely.

[David Roth Weiss] "Do you know a fact when you see one?"

You're simply grasping at straws here, to create doubt about information that doesn't support a particular narrative. Meanwhile, everything piece of information that does support that narrative has an obvious alternative interpretation.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 6:09:10 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Pogue explicitly said he talked to "product managers". Anyway, this is just another way of saying "Apple is lying". Which is possible, but not very likely."

There is no one at Apple who has gone on the record, making it impossible to verify. That's not lying, but without accountability it's certainly not fact that you and others should be citing as "gospel," as you do relentlessly.

[Chris Kenny] "You're simply grasping at straws here, to create doubt about information that doesn't support a particular narrative. "

No, that's denial and projection on your part, attributing to me the very things I've called you on, which I do here in the interest of fairness.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 6:13:54 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "No, that's denial and projection on your part, attributing to me the very things I've called you on, which I do here in the interest of fairness."

Just so I'm sure I have your argument straight: your claim is that is it more reasonable to believe at this time that Apple does not intend to add these features than that Apple does, because Apple's statements to (several) media outlets about this subject may be false?

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Largé
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 7:00:25 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Just so I'm sure I have your argument straight: your claim is that is it more reasonable to believe at this time that Apple does not intend to add these features than that Apple does, because Apple's statements to (several) media outlets about this subject may be false?"

I will not profess to speak for David but from what I'm gathering, his argument is that you're citing sources you're unable to verify, which all journalists know is worthless. You're stating things as fact (Apple will definitely add missing features) because some "journalists" online have said that they talked to someone at Apple who told them so; even though Apple themselves have made no official statement of any kind, which they've had every chance to do, since FCPX's release.

I understand where you're coming from Chris. You think these news outlets have no reason to lie about speaking with Apple product managers regarding the future of FCPX and yet, it is precisely because of Apple's continued silence that it's difficult to believe anything the outlets are saying. Most are saying the same thing - "I spoke to someone at Apple who assured me....." - but not one of them can cite a source and since FCPX isn't a secretive project anymore, why is it that no one is providing the name of the "product managers" they spoke with at Apple?

I have no doubt Apple will add features to FCPX in future updates, but which features those are I have no idea and quite frankly, I'm not going to preach to others about it until Apple themselves say - and more importantly DO - so.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 10:14:22 pm

[Michael Largé] "I will not profess to speak for David but from what I'm gathering, his argument is that you're citing sources you're unable to verify, which all journalists know is worthless. You're stating things as fact (Apple will definitely add missing features) because some "journalists" online have said that they talked to someone at Apple who told them so; even though Apple themselves have made no official statement of any kind, which they've had every chance to do, since FCPX's release. "

I am stating Apple has an intent to add these features because several people who are very unlikely to be lying, and who, based on their past statements and their reputations there is reason to believe Apple talks to, say that Apple has told them this.

This might not meet whatever specific version of a "fact" David is using, but it's a lot more solid than the theory that Apple will never add these features because Apple no longer cares about professional users.

[Michael Largé] "I have no doubt Apple will add features to FCPX in future updates, but which features those are I have no idea and quite frankly, I'm not going to preach to others about it until Apple themselves say - and more importantly DO - so."

That would be fine if everyone where taking an entirely neutral wait-and-see attitude toward Apple's intentions for the product. But that's not the case. In a world where a large number of people are advancing a particular theory about Apple's intentions, what Apple is saying about those intentions to reliable sources should not simply be ignored because it disagrees with that theory.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Largé
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 11:12:54 pm

[Chris Kenny] "I am stating Apple has an intent to add these features because several people who are very unlikely to be lying, and who, based on their past statements and their reputations there is reason to believe Apple talks to, say that Apple has told them this.

This might not meet whatever specific version of a "fact" David is using, but it's a lot more solid than the theory that Apple will never add these features because Apple no longer cares about professional users."


For clarity's sake, I'm not disputing nor debating what you've said, only to say myself that I would love to hear Apple go on official record about these updates rather than hearing them second hand.

[Chris Kenny] "That would be fine if everyone where taking an entirely neutral wait-and-see attitude toward Apple's intentions for the product. But that's not the case. In a world where a large number of people are advancing a particular theory about Apple's intentions, what Apple is saying about those intentions to reliable sources should not simply be ignored because it disagrees with that theory."

I agree, except I think the reason for the mistrust from editors is squarely Apple's fault. Did you see the presentation at NAB? While they clearly said FCPX was rebuilt from the ground up, they never gave an indication that it is an entirely new product that is incompatible with previous versions of the software. In fact, they strongly suggested otherwise. I implore you to click the link I'm providing below which will take you straight to the 21:04 mark of the video (and last until 22:30).

http://tinyurl.com/6jrtqvn

When promoting Compound Clips, they showed a project in FCP7 and how it would look in FCPX. Even if it wasn't directly stated, the impression was that FCP7 projects could be imported into FCPX. Will this be rectified in a future update? One hopes, but it's not a great feeling to discover this on release day, especially when you consider that the birthday for FCPX is also the death date of FCP7 (which Apple has officially discontinued). So the mistrust and outrage editors feel is justified when you take everything, including Apple's continued silence, into account. Are there some bad, complaining, whining apples in the mix who simply don't want to move forward and cling to outdated tech? Sure, that's part of every industry, but by and large, the majority of them have a right to be skeptical. A betrayal of trust has a funny way of doing that to people.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 7:09:41 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Just so I'm sure I have your argument straight: your claim is that is it more reasonable to believe at this time that Apple does not intend to add these features than that Apple does, because Apple's statements to (several) media outlets about this subject may be false?"

No, those are your words Chris.

So that we are perfectly clear, this discussion between us not one about the issues being debated, but rather the style and tactics of the debate itself. Everyone is entitled to their own POV, but if you're going relentlessly push a point of view in an open debate by quoting others, you must be prepared to cite reputable and accountable sources, otherwise face the fact that you will called on the matter and your own credibility called into question.

Does this make sense?


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 7:36:07 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "So that we are perfectly clear, this discussion between us not one about the issues being debated, but rather the style and tactics of the debate itself. Everyone is entitled to their own POV, but if you're going relentlessly push a point of view in an open debate by quoting others, you must be prepared to cite reputable and accountable sources, otherwise face the fact that you will called on the matter and your own credibility called into question.

Does this make sense?"


Sure. You're playing FUD games with respect to information given by Apple directly to several independent sources, and trying to defend this action by acting condescending toward me for pointing it out. It's all crystal clear.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Reed Black
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 26, 2011 at 1:24:03 am

David, david, david... I'm glad I was on your mind a whole day. I'm the guy that said FCPX was awesome, yes having read the manual on what it CAN DO - not what it CAN"T DO. Instead of whining about its short comings I decided to see what it could do. After, reading the manual and diving in (played with it for about 5 hours last night), I stand by MY opinion and I think its even AWESOME-ER!! (Yes, my own made up word.)

Its fast, very, very intuitive and smooth. The viewer was a bit annoying at first until I figured out the best way to configure it for MY style of editing. My normal editing tools are there (exception of course multicam) with a ton of welcomed extras. This being said, it does have its limitations. No output to my monitor is very annoying as well as all the other sited issues Apple left out. But hey, I love it. This program is AWESOME!! TO ME! Did Apple screw up on its shortcomings? Absolutely, but looking on the positive side, its exciting... again to me.

And despite what most think, I do believe that Apple will bring back the features that are missing. It makes no sense for them not too. Why not have the best of both worlds. Professionals - prosumers alike.

As I mentioned to you yesterday (and you proved it again today) which is, you come across very smug, patronizing and rude in your comments. Which I think is totally unnecessary. Try working on your tack when posting David.

Sincerely,
Reed Black.



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John Godwin
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 10:24:10 pm

Well, some think Apple wanted to get a program out the door that would work for a majority of people, then add other features as soon as they are ready. If you read Pogue's NY Times column he questioned Apple and they say many of the missing features will be added in updates.

Best,
John


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Bill Dawson
Re: Future update to add XML, Multicam and importing of old projects?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 12:58:00 am

>then add other features as soon as they are ready.

If FCP7 was still for sale until those features were available, I would believe that.

It is not and I do not.

Bill


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