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Aindreas Gallagher
If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 18, 2013 at 4:26:38 pm

http://nofilmschool.com/2013/06/adobe-cc-subscription-options-live/?utm_sou...

they're looking into it - obvious to say but nobody should sign up to CC under the current terms, if better terms are to emerge - also, if nobody signs up to the current terms, the odds of there being better terms in the near future improves dramatically.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig Seeman
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 18, 2013 at 5:43:10 pm

I've thought another viable option would be that one could buy the app or suite along with a one year subscription at a reduced rate. Then if one didn't want to renew one would be left with the app(s) as they were at that point. If at some point they wanted to jump back on as a cloud subscriber they'd have to pay for the updates missed so Adobe would get the "back" money. Of course this, like any other system, has some issues.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 18, 2013 at 6:54:47 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I've thought another viable option would be that one could buy the app or suite along with a one year subscription at a reduced rate. Then if one didn't want to renew one would be left with the app(s) as they were at that point."

I kind of doubt adobe would go anywhere near that - they have to feel that their subscription model is broadly intact. the main thing they need to do is address the perceived long term loss of control over access to your work. three to five year pitstop where you hit some kind of understood basecamp seems a pretty good option.

any number less than 3-5 and I think adobe would start seriously shaking their heads. they need to feel that they have a valid long term subscription strategy under their feet.

http://www.adobe2014.tumblr.com
#adobe2014

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Lawrence
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 18, 2013 at 7:46:55 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "they're looking into it - obvious to say but nobody should sign up to CC under the current terms, if better terms are to emerge - also, if nobody signs up to the current terms, the odds of there being better terms in the near future improves dramatically."

Yep, the fact that they're testing the water with photographers says they can read the handwriting on the wall.

The $29/month for 3-year contract sounds perfect with one change -- at the end of the three-year term I need to keep a current version of the software. CS6 doesn't cut it because:

1) I already own CS6
2) CS6 can't open Premiere Pro projects.

Let us keep a working copy of the current software after 3-years and I'll sign up today.

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Walter Soyka
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 18, 2013 at 8:12:01 pm

[David Lawrence] "Let us keep a working copy of the current software after 3-years and I'll sign up today."

I'm curious about the "it's not about the money, but it's about the money" on the Adobe side in terms of subscriptions and lifetime customer value.

What what you say is the most you'd be willing to pay for a perpetual license buyout of Premiere Pro?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 18, 2013 at 9:14:29 pm

[Walter Soyka] "What what you say is the most you'd be willing to pay for a perpetual license buyout of Premiere Pro?"

that's not the right argument walter. It's not about re-introducing purchasing. realistically, for adobe, it can't be. a lot of that suite is near feature complete, and on version 10-14.

The point is that Adobe need to introduce mechanisms into the subscription that allow for mental breathers along the way of what would be a very long term subscription commitment.

on a basic psychological level - they have to find a mechanism that means the work files aren't completely irrevocably tied to subscription software, disappearing over the time horizon into an unseen future.

maybe the subscription numbers play out for them, and they don't have to answer this, but I suspect the numbers might not.
Adobe have to find a way to adjust their basic customer stance here.

this isn't going to work for them or us over the medium term. they are already taking massive profit hits over a three year horizon by shrinking the pool as they are.

and that was under an optimal subscription rate scenario.
even under optimal they don't hit 2012 profit levels until getting on for 2016. this whole thing was damn risky to begin with.

http://www.adobe2104.tumblr.com
#adobe2014

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 18, 2013 at 9:59:29 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that's not the right argument walter. It's not about re-introducing purchasing."

Fair, but I'm not really asking about re-introducing purchasing. I'm trying to get a handle on what people think the real value of the product is.


[Aindreas Gallagher] "The point is that Adobe need to introduce mechanisms into the subscription that allow for mental breathers along the way of what would be a very long term subscription commitment. on a basic psychological level - they have to find a mechanism that means the work files aren't completely irrevocably tied to subscription software, disappearing over the time horizon into an unseen future."

I don't really follow. I know David reasonably views long-term project file control as a digital rights issue. Are you arguing for some kind of a placebo?


[Aindreas Gallagher] "lot of that suite is near feature complete, and on version 10-14. "

I will not argue that everything that can be invented already has. I think every one of the Adobe apps still has plenty of room for growth.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 18, 2013 at 10:25:58 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Fair, but I'm not really asking about re-introducing purchasing."

no... you were asking for a purchase buyout price specific to PPro - that just didn't really make any sense.

[Walter Soyka] " Are you arguing for some kind of a placebo?"

unusual choice of words - people are arguing for a loyalty scheme of some description that allows the long term subscriber to see realistic points in time where they gain some measure of control over the files created to that point before continuing on - as is clearly laid out above at the link, as has been discussed at length, in detail, by tim dowse.

it would broadly involve adobe providing some kind of working archive of the software at relatively lengthy intervals to continuous subscribers.
In the survey, adobe are looking for that archive to be CS6 with guarantees of file interoperability with CC three years hence. Tim Dowse argues for a fully current archive of CC software five years from activating subscription. The point is that you might be quite dis-inclined to step out at that point given the build of assets, and interplay with the other cloud offerings. the critical point is that you can work and pay to towards that scenario, and feel a mental release of breath after arriving at it.

of the two I favour Tim Dowse's scenario. It's a little more long term, but it feels basically solid - you are three thousand dollars in - you and adobe are well in bed by then.

But, to get back to it - its not a placebo walter, its a psychological safeguard placed in front of the subscriber at the outset of an open ended journey.
It feels like an excellent idea.

http://www.adobe2014.tumblr.com
#adobe2014

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 18, 2013 at 11:02:03 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "no... you were asking for a purchase buyout price specific to PPro - that just didn't really make any sense."

David wants to be able to pay for three years, then keep what he's got so far. Adobe wants him to pay indefinitely. I'm curious to know what they respectively are willing to pay and be paid, that's all.


[Aindreas Gallagher] "But, to get back to it - its not a placebo walter, its a psychological safeguard placed in front of the subscriber at the outset of an open ended journey. It feels like an excellent idea."

Is it purely psychological for you? What's the practical angle?

Really, I don't have a horse in this whole licensing race. I'm interested in understanding the other viewpoints here, and I certainly can't seem to stop myself from expressing mine, but I don't really want to argue about it. No one's right, anyway.

I don't particularly care how I pay for this stuff. I think no matter what, Adobe needs to make whatever money they need to make, so they will charge what they need to charge to make that, and it will end up costing me about about the same amount of money, no matter what the specifics of the model may be.

I just want to see Adobe focusing on collaboration, and I think Creative Cloud is a fantastic foundation for that. I know it's anathema for some, but I love the potential with products and services working together. I am genuinely excited about possibilities of moving beyond isolated desktop applications. I hope all find what we are looking for.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Lawrence
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 18, 2013 at 11:23:44 pm

[Walter Soyka] "David wants to be able to pay for three years, then keep what he's got so far. Adobe wants him to pay indefinitely. I'm curious to know what they respectively are willing to pay and be paid, that's all."

Walter, I'm happy to answer.

$30/month x 12 months x 3 years = 360/year = $1080 total

I would gladly pay this for the Production Suite Applications

$50/month x 12 months x 3 years = 600/year = $1800 total

I would gladly pay this for the Master Collection Applications

Note how these prices are essentially identical to what my yearly perpetual upgrade costs would have been as a current CS6 owner.

I think these prices would be completely fair for both Adobe and for me. I'd get the practical benefit of a working archive copy of the software, Adobe gets my commitment to buy over a predictable, extended timeframe.

If Adobe truly innovates and creates cloud-based features I'd actually use, I'd probably continue my subscription longer than three years. But the three year exit is important because it restores the balance of supply and demand that gets skewed in a DRM lock-in situation.

In any event, it's trivial to implement. They could do it tomorrow. It would be a win-win and end the controversy instantly.

A copy of CS6 won't fly. It doesn't open Premiere Pro CC projects.

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Jim Wiseman
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 20, 2013 at 3:37:24 pm

I like David's three year plan, at most. It is what I would have spent anyway. I think the other 6 million they seem to be willing to slough off would as well. The current model doesn't work for anyone with half a brain. I would rather just stay with CS6 and be done with it. Prepare my files from different codecs and export them as a universal one such as ProRes of DNxHD and finish in something else. I've already done one long form project that way, and I got the best of both worlds. Adobe isn't indispensable when looked at that way. I won't sign for more than three years, and not without a working copy at that time. Features not backward compatible are of no use. CS6 in three years? No, thanks, I already have it and it won't support three years of my work.

Better off sending them no money and forcing a real change in this model. In other words, dump Narayen. He's tied to this like a burglar caught in your house. Adobe can innovate without this model. All I really need is better media management for docs, anyway. I do about zero mograph, and Motion suits me better for the little I need anyway. AE code is so ancient, why should I pay for a re-write of that when I hardly ever use it? Especially if the whole deal causes me to lose access to my work. I'm not brain dead. The suite was really the best model. Why do you think all the yelling and screaming is happening? People liked it and want it back. Failing that, 3 years and a current out for Adobe to save face. But that doesn't even solve the problem of future OS updates, especially on the Mac, where they happen every year now.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 18, 2013 at 11:47:36 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Is it purely psychological for you? What's the practical angle?"

the practical angle is I'm not willing to go completely open ended, no pit stop, subscription for the personal works I generate.
there is absolutely no way I'm going to do that.


[Walter Soyka] "I just want to see Adobe focusing on collaboration, and I think Creative Cloud is a fantastic foundation for that. I know it's anathema for some, but I love the potential with products and services working together"

but walter - what does that really mean anyway? that is close to magical thinking?
file sync is still offline after launch, they haven't got it back up yet, it never included video files, their entire installer fell over for mass numbers of customers today, they were re-posting customer tips on how to get it to work on the adobe forums - its a mess.

what do you actually see happening with this amazing service enmeshing? what is going on there? the kuler wheel?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 19, 2013 at 3:16:11 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "but walter - what does that really mean anyway? that is close to magical thinking? ... what do you actually see happening with this amazing service enmeshing? what is going on there? the kuler wheel?"

It's not magical thinking. Client/server systems make collaboration a lot more practical than individual monolithic systems. Think Gmail, iCloud, Dropbox, etc.

I think preference and file sync is just the beginning. I don't know what's coming, but the possibilities are broad. I think that like Twitter, the network effect you get from connecting users is what makes the system valuable. I hope to see tools around sharing assets, looks and effects. I hope to see tools for connecting with new talent. I hope to see review tools. I hope to see workflow tools. I hope to see tablet-based software mature.

Adobe developed Creative Suite as the solution to the problem of application integration, but integration features took time to develop. Creative Cloud is positioned to solve problems of connection, collaboration and mobility [link], but I expect it'll take time to develop those features.

In a way, I think it's a bit like FCPX (minus the feature discontinuity): building a new foundation for going forward.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 19, 2013 at 6:26:48 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Creative Cloud is positioned to solve problems of connection, collaboration and mobility [link], but I expect it'll take time to develop those features."

Subservient to solving the problem of enhancing Adobe's bottom line. Which is the central issue.

It's possible to drive bottom line results and allow users to pick and choose their toolsets freely and to make the value of the solutions you provide be the motivating factor in their use.

It's quite another thing to build your business on the concept of what can be viewed, fairly or not, as "RansomWare - effectively saying to your customers that in order to keep your practice "safe" you have to keep making regularly scheduled payments.

If monthly rental was ONE mode of option - I'd have absolutely no problem with this. But as the ONLY mode it troubles me.

Because the longer I live, the more I equate giving any company permission to automatically dip into my funds with problems. It FLIPS the purchase driver from me to the vendor. Instead of choosing to spend - I have to choose NOT to spend.

Honestly, if Apple did the same with X, as much as I delight in using it and see it as the future of my business - I'd feel deeply compelled to re-evaluate.

I want to keep the power of opening my purse in my hands whenever possible. Not cede it to a business unless there's no other way. I can tolerate the electric company doing it, because I need the serevice AND I can control my demand.

With RansomWare, I have to pay the entity in charge whether or not I consume anything from them in a particular cycle.

Not good, in my book.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 19, 2013 at 6:39:32 pm

what he said.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Lawrence
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 19, 2013 at 7:30:36 pm

[Bill Davis] "I want to keep the power of opening my purse in my hands whenever possible. Not cede it to a business unless there's no other way. I can tolerate the electric company doing it, because I need the serevice AND I can control my demand.

With RansomWare, I have to pay the entity in charge whether or not I consume anything from them in a particular cycle.

Not good, in my book."


[Aindreas Gallagher] "what he said."

Yep.

Bill, for once, we're 100% in agreement :)

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David Lawrence
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Walter Soyka
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 19, 2013 at 7:30:44 pm

[Bill Davis] "Subservient to solving the problem of enhancing Adobe's bottom line. Which is the central issue."

I just don't understand this almost us-versus-them logic. This is not a zero-sum game. There would be no future in Adobe's apps if they don't make money selling them. They make stuff, they try to sell it, and if we like it, we buy it.

You're right to point out that the new model has new disadvantages, but there are customer benefits to CC which get overlooked all the time here in the Internet echo chamber. Most of the people I talk to in real life are excited about CC.


[Bill Davis] "It's possible to drive bottom line results and allow users to pick and choose their toolsets freely and to make the value of the solutions you provide be the motivating factor in their use."

I actually think that's what Adobe is trying to do with CC: provide a valuable and compelling solution.


[Bill Davis] "It's quite another thing to build your business on the concept of what can be viewed, fairly or not, as "RansomWare - effectively saying to your customers that in order to keep your practice "safe" you have to keep making regularly scheduled payments."

It may be new to our industry, but it's de rigueur in lots of others. Web companies generally don't own their own servers. Look at Dropbox -- they're 100% dependent on Amazon for the storage and bandwidth at the core of their business. Likewise with builders and manufacturers that lease, not own, the heavy equipment that facilities the work at the core of their businesses.


[Bill Davis] "With RansomWare, I have to pay the entity in charge whether or not I consume anything from them in a particular cycle."

As opposed to the previous model, where you could pay thousands of dollars upfront for software that you might use heavily for a month and then rarely thereafter? With CC you can go month-to-month, on a single product or on the whole suite, so you can pay for your usage as you go.


[Bill Davis] "If monthly rental was ONE mode of option - I'd have absolutely no problem with this. But as the ONLY mode it troubles me."

Certainly fair. People have to make their own decisions based on what's best for them.

I'm not Adobe PR. I get the case against CC. I understand why some people are upset and why those people are choosing not to sign up.

But I think CC is good for my business, and I think it has enormous potential as a new platform for dealing with new challenges. Changing the model and wrapping services into the products is a big, interesting long-term play that opens up all kinds of possibilities for innovation.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Lawrence
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 19, 2013 at 7:49:38 pm

[Walter Soyka] "They make stuff, they try to sell it, and if we like it, we buy it."

The problem is that's no longer true. Now they make stuff, rent it to us and when we stop paying rent, it goes poof, locking us out of our own work.

That's a pretty big deal they need to fix. Even then, it sounds like they're prepared to write off 6 million existing customers.

This is a company that badly needs new leadership if they hope to survive.

Other than that, I agree with you about the opportunities. :)

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Walter Soyka
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 19, 2013 at 9:33:20 pm

[David Lawrence] "The p Now they make stuff, rent it to us and when we stop paying rent, it goes poof, locking us out of our own work."

Point taken.

Some of us view our work differently and are comfortable subscribing, though.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Lawrence
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 19, 2013 at 10:43:31 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Some of us view our work differently and are comfortable subscribing, though."

Agreed. I totally understand and support your choice. Now I just want Adobe to really listen and offer a choice for me and the millions of other customers rental doesn't work for.

It's in everyone's best interest that Adobe be a healthy business in the future.

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David Lawrence
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Chris Harlan
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 20, 2013 at 4:56:47 am

[David Lawrence] "It's in everyone's best interest that Adobe be a healthy business in the future.
"


I agree with that. Eventually, I probably won't be using Creative Cloud if I'm using it for too long in a vacuum. I like the Premiere changes quite a bit, but Symphony is also swell for me. I'm in for a year, and I hope this all gets worked out in the meantime. If it turns into an island, then I will only rent it when I need it, which probably won't be often because CS 6 fills most of my non-NLE needs. So, fingers crossed that it all works out.


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David Lawrence
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 20, 2013 at 5:04:36 am

[Chris Harlan] "I agree with that. Eventually, I probably won't be using Creative Cloud if I'm using it for too long in a vacuum. I like the Premiere changes quite a bit, but Symphony is also swell for me. I'm in for a year, and I hope this all gets worked out in the meantime. If it turns into an island, then I will only rent it when I need it, which probably won't be often because CS 6 fills most of my non-NLE needs. So, fingers crossed that it all works out."

Chris, how much better is the new Premiere in your opinion? As good as it looks from the demos?

BTW, I hear great things about Symphony 7...

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Chris Harlan
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 20, 2013 at 5:14:40 am

[David Lawrence] "Chris, how much better is the new Premiere in your opinion? As good as it looks from the demos?

BTW, I hear great things about Symphony 7...
"


I wish I could tell you. I'm buried in a project right now, and can't get into it. I'm currently working in--drum roll--FCP 7. I have seen it in the field, prior to the release, and it is really a matter of lots of little niceties. I AM looking forward to it, but it may be weeks before I can give it a real spin.

Yeah, MC7 (with the Symphony Upgrade) does look nice. I actually bought the 6 to 6.5 upgrade today to make sure I could take advantage of the free boost to 7. I'm looking forward to that too. And, weirdly, I'm enjoying being back on Legacy, as well. I will probably time freeze a Legacy computer at one of the Lions just for the heck of it.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 19, 2013 at 10:46:29 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Some of us view our work differently and are comfortable subscribing, though."

I'm being serious: How are you doing that Walter? How are you viewing the works you produce with rental software differently? You are creating owned works, dependent on tool subscription.

What you create is now tied to subscription. Your ability to access and modify what you create is tied to subscription. Have you read at all on the adobe forums? there have been real failures. As an outlier because of a short term credit card scenario, John Davidson lost complete control of the CC software recently. over a weekend.

Walter: there is no benefit scenario that trumps the basic issue whereby we habitually face losing fundamental control over the tools we are using to create personal works. I'm nearly strangling the expletives coming out my throat at this point.

this is not a subscription to watch cable, or to listen to music - this is renting your fundamental ability to do do your job. every month.

I would really like not to sound dismissive - but exactly how stupid is everyone getting here?

we need. a better. deal.

http://www.adobe2014.tumblr.com
#adobe2014

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Mike Dar
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 25, 2013 at 12:47:21 pm

This reminds me of what Politics are at large. Forced participation.
Essentially, one will not own ones work eventually, without participation. I know it sounds like an extreme comparison, but the idea that tomorrow, to utilize what I created yesterday, I need to spend, sure reminds me of socialized systems we see coming into effect.
To say; what we created, we 'did not make', because it does not exist without paying daily for it TO EXIST.
So I see this as something beyond a modeling of profits for Adobe, I see the cloud paradigm as Adobe participating in MY... ownership of created efforts.
Don't take this as a Political statement, but as seeing a real comparable in Adobes future business modeling going away from independent ownership. Do I like collaborating on the net, sure, do I believe this is taking advantage of consumers to where Adobe participates at each level of the products commercial use, you bet.
It really seems like a tax, kinda like arguing Obamacare status, is it a tax? And what is 'is', and how did Adobe come to believe if the government can do it, we can too?
Adobe could have done its cloud participation differently and made out like bandits in many ways, without creating a 'tax' structure as I see it becoming.


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Walter Soyka
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jun 25, 2013 at 3:35:48 pm

Sorry for the lengthy delay, Aindreas. I took the weekend off.


[Aindreas Gallagher] "I'm being serious: How are you doing that Walter? How are you viewing the works you produce with rental software differently? You are creating owned works, dependent on tool subscription."

I understand the issue of project file ownership/control. While I may join you, David and Jim in a theoretical opposition to rented software, this problem is entirely ideological for me. It is not a practical problem at all for my business.

As I've said before, I essentially have to automatically upgrade every release anyway to stay compatible. I was already on de-facto subscription. This isn't that different.

Am I dependent on tool subscription? No more so than a regular "activated" installation. Of course I need the tool to access a project file while I'm using it, but I very, very rarely need a project file after I deliver a finished project. My repeat business isn't about making changes to existing projects: it's about making new content to address new communication needs. Assets are re-used; projects are not.

If Adobe changes CC and makes it unaffordable or unpalatable in some other way, I'll leave. I'm well-versed in other software and I use other applications frequently where appropriate. I could start my next project on Smoke, NUKE, or Motion this afternoon instead of Ae/Pr.

Old project files give Adobe no power over me. If I had left CC and I did need access to an old project, I'd just rent it for the month. Every job I do has some kind of variable cost: licensing for photography/music/fonts, computer time for rendering, freelance labor, etc. I have overhead beyond that: office rental, electricity, phones, Internet access, software maintenance, insurance, etc. The cost of the production tools is actually the smallest of these.



[Aindreas Gallagher] "Walter: there is no benefit scenario that trumps the basic issue whereby we habitually face losing fundamental control over the tools we are using to create personal works. I'm nearly strangling the expletives coming out my throat at this point. this is not a subscription to watch cable, or to listen to music - this is renting your fundamental ability to do do your job. every month."

I think this is much more an emotional issue than a practical one. Plenty of businesses run without "fundamental control." Look at Dropbox. They are 100% dependent on Amazon S3 for their file storage. 100%.

Owning tools doesn't give me a warm fuzzy glow of security. What's there to own? The "pliers" tool analogy doesn't work with computers. My old CS3 installation discs won't help me sleep at night in 2013.

Broadening the scope of the discussion a bit, we lost fundamental control over the tools we use thirty years ago when someone got the bright idea that software should be licensed, not purchased.

If you need to ping someone else's activation server to install your tool, do you control it? If you can only get it to run on a specific set of hardware running specific versions of OSes, do you control it? If a product you've invested time and money in can be EOLed without notice at any moment, do you control it?

Crying for perpetual licensing or loyalty buyouts or whatever isn't the answer to this problem. You'd still be tied to Adobe, and fully dependent on them to provide activations or whatever other updates or functionality was required.

Open data is the soft answer, and open source is the hard answer. If you could reasonably open your work in another application, or if you could actually adapt the application itself however you saw fit, then you'd be Free.

Many objections I see to Creative Cloud boil down to "what if" scenarios, like "what if Adobe raises the price of CC?" When/if they do, I'll re-evaluate. FCP7/FCPX and this whole Mac/PC thing taught me that I can switch. I'll use what's best for me for now and switch when it changes.

I know I've talked a lot about where I think Creative Cloud will go and how it will solve problems I have today, but that's still in the future and we can't count on it yet. Let's consider the CC versions of the apps we do have today.

Look at Ae: CINEWARE is awesome. Refine Edge is awesome. Snapping to layer features is awesome. Bicubic sampling is long overdue, but it's here now and it's awesome. Improved DNxHD, DPX, and OpenEXR support is awesome. Look at Pr: there are dozens of little editorial improvements that are awesome. The audio clip mixer is welcome and awesome. Lumetri looks are awesome. Mezzanine codec support is awesome.

There's enough awesome there that I don't want to use CS6 anymore. My clients don't know it specifically, but they don't want me to use CS6 anymore, either -- not when a feature like CINEWARE lets me iterate quickly back and forth between Ae and C4D, for example, letting me get better work done in the same amount of time.

I'm not trying to tell you that CC is right for you. Obviously, you feel very strongly that it is not, because you are not comfortable with the requirement that you'd pay in the future for the continued ability to open your projects. You want creative software to work the way it has worked since its inception, and that's a reasonable position to take.

I do sincerely hope that Adobe comes up with something you, David and Jim can be happy with. I'm really happy with the CC applications and I think you would like them, too.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jason Van Patten
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jul 9, 2013 at 12:19:11 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Owning tools doesn't give me a warm fuzzy glow of security. What's there to own? The "pliers" tool analogy doesn't work with computers. My old CS3 installation discs won't help me sleep at night in 2013."

Here's a fun "what if" that is actually real: imagine that Adobe introduces a disastrous bug into your NLE, making it literally impossible to do your work? What then? Download the update and hope you don't trip over the bug? Download the update and hope they patch it quickly? Stay at your current version of the NLE but continue paying them a monthly rental?

(For the uninitiated: I'm referring to the spanned AVCHD clip bug that still hasn't been fixed in Pr CS6)

Let's look at those choices. The first two are just trouble waiting to happen. Specially if you make money with your NLE. Hopefully no professional would choose either of those. That leaves the third: stay at the present release. Well, great. You're paying them money for something that you'll never update until they fix the bug. Their excuse for going to the rental software is that they're free to release new features on a regular basis. How's that benefiting you during this "bug" problem? It's not. And it's costing you money.

What if they release new features that you really want, but still haven't fixed the bug? What if it took them more than a year to fix the bug? What if they were never able to fix it (as is probably the case with the aforementioned CS6 bug)?

Paying for perpetual licenses gives you, the end user, far more freedom to pick and choose IF you want to pay for the upgrades.


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Walter Soyka
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jul 9, 2013 at 4:02:02 pm

Jason, my position is that bad bugs are bad, period.

I don't get how this as an issue of perpetual license versus subscription. Why is it better to pay a lot of money upfront for product with a bad bug?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jason Van Patten
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Jul 9, 2013 at 10:41:57 pm

[Walter Soyka] " I don't get how this as an issue of perpetual license versus subscription. Why is it better to pay a lot of money upfront for product with a bad bug?"

I guess I wasn't clear enough and I apologize for that. FWIW, I agree that a bad bug is bad, period. But...

Had I a better grasp of the CS6 issue, I wouldn't have paid the money for it. I'd have continued happily along with CS5.5 and saved myself the upgrade cost. Unfortunately, I didn't discover this bug until I was past my 30-day refund period, so I'm stuck with a piece of software I paid for and can't use. I had the choice and I made the wrong one.

If you start paying rental for CC and some nasty bug is introduced by an update in the future (expect updates to happen: this fall and this winter for things like AE and Premiere...) you also have the choice to update or not. But what you don't have is the choice to continue paying. Again: you're signing up for a monthly rental ostensibly to give you near-instant access to upgrades and new features. But you don't get to pick and choose those features and updates. You either take them in serial or you take none of them. Regardless, you'll continue paying for them.

Does that make sense? To me there's a distinct difference.


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Todd Kopriva
Re: If you're thinking about premiere pro CC - it might be a really good idea to wait.
on Aug 15, 2013 at 1:28:30 am

> I'm referring to the spanned AVCHD clip bug that still hasn't been fixed in Pr CS6)



This bug has been fixed in the Premiere Pro CS6 (6.0.4) update: http://bit.ly/DVA_updates

(BTW, a new After Effects CS6 update is coming soon.)

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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