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Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro

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Herb Sevush
Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 15, 2013 at 7:47:44 pm

I came across this interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro, as Bob Zelin and company hold forth. Worth a look.

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/197/859608

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 15, 2013 at 8:57:23 pm

Bringing it "home" to this forum as I pointed out in a few posts down

http://alex4d.wordpress.com/2013/06/14/os-x-10-9-networking-boost/

According to FAQ-MAC a feature of Appleā€™s forthcoming Mac OS X 10.9 Mavericks might allow many more Macs be used in simple render farms: IP over Thunderbolt.

A long while back (over a year ago I believe) I had mentioned that I thought Apple might pursue networking over Thunderbolt. It certainly would be interesting.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 15, 2013 at 9:03:52 pm

From FAQ-MAC


English Translation
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww....

Orignal Spanish
http://www.faq-mac.com/noticias/os-x-109-mavericks-ip-sobre-thunderbolt/501...



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Bob Zelin
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 15, 2013 at 10:55:52 pm

and I have rudely replied to Craig on this thread.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 12:01:04 am

Well Bob - any rude reply here should just make you feel more like a forum homie!

To the debate at hand, here's my take.

I honestly don't think the big problem is the devaluation of "professionalism" at all. Even tho that's what has most current professionals in a twist. They worry about those $22,000 a year kids taking their gigs. But in doing so they're worried about the small game.

I think there's a bigger game afoot.

It's the wholesale devaluing of accumulated knowledge brought about by jacking every 1st world person with the economic sophistication to buy and adopt a personal terminal into their life - into an always there network of knowledge.

When you can look up anything. When you can watch a 2 minute video about anything. Anytime. Anywhere. On virtually any topic. That changes things.

Call a plumber, or watch any of 10 videos on how a P-trap works and how to install or fix it. So the driver of calling a plumber is no longer access to expertise. It's convenience, or do it yourself disinterest, or that you're otherwise engaged in something more personally valuable - but it's no longer simply knowing how to do the job properly.

We've moving rapidly AWAY from a society where people are going to be getting paid for their knowledge. And barely more for their experience since that will only matter for those who don't want to take the time to build their own experience.

That 22 year old may be sitting there unsure of how to cut an interview competently. But she's got a device in her pocket where if she's half smart - she can teach herself that in the first month with three times a day personal lessons and examples galore.

So what's left?

There are plenty of contenders. Wisdom. Curation, Contacts, The ability to syntheize concepts across disciplines. social class groupings... ???.
But unlike in our era, it's just NOT going to be technical expertise in areas where the tech is getting increasingly automated.

Expertise in knowing how to cut video is increasingly worthless. Because it's now a viably SELF taught process. Not something hidden away in the back rooms of TV stations where WE all had to learn it after talking our way past the old guard gatekeepers.

The youngsters will still have to go up the learning curve, but unlike in the past, they don't need the old guard to teach them that. It's on-line.

Big change. Very, very big.

So time to re-brand ourselves from "the pro guys who know how to make video" because that's not a very compelling value proposition when legions are doing a version of the same thing on their phones..

Scary as shit. But there we are.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Gary Huff
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 1:10:10 am

[Bill Davis] "That 22 year old may be sitting there unsure of how to cut an interview competently. But she's got a device in her pocket where if she's half smart - she can teach herself that in the first month with three times a day personal lessons and examples galore."

Most of them aren't even that smart.

[Bill Davis] "So time to re-brand ourselves from "the pro guys who know how to make video" because that's not a very compelling value proposition when legions are doing a version of the same thing on their phones.."

And it clearly looks it, and I've taken jobs where clients didn't want that "phone video" look.


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Bill Davis
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 8:45:05 pm

[Gary Huff] "Most of them aren't even that smart."

You're hanging around the wrong 20 year olds!

I have a kid that age. And I'm constantly surrounded by them. And I find the majority of them to be sharp and certainly no lazier or messed up than my peer group was at 20.

In fact, since most of them have grown up with personal tech as a given, I find this generation WAY more "trainable" than my generation ever was.

They live connected. So I don't have to seek out the ones that can type - the ones that understand how to navigate a computer UI, or the ones who are comfortable grabbing a basic camera, either still or motion - since they've been basically comfortable operating those since they were out of the diaper stage.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 17, 2013 at 12:17:31 am

[Bill Davis] "You're hanging around the wrong 20 year olds ... I find the majority of them to be sharp and certainly no lazier or messed up than my peer group was at 20."

Couldn't agree more. I'm amazed at how proficient and technically savy young kids are.

On the other hand I totally disagree with your ideas about how experience and expertise are loosing value due to the internet. I have no fears that a 22 year old is gonna take my job - unless he/she was a child of Orson Wells. I don't know too many producers that are gonna put a 22 years old in charge of a million dollar project, no matter how sharp they are.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 2:56:40 am

[Bill Davis] "Call a plumber, or watch any of 10 videos on how a P-trap works and how to install or fix it. So the driver of calling a plumber is no longer access to expertise. It's convenience, or do it yourself disinterest, or that you're otherwise engaged in something more personally valuable - but it's no longer simply knowing how to do the job properly."

For simple, lower end things I agree but for more complex and/or involved tasks relatively few people want to tackle that. I mean, most people in the first world have cameras yet portrait studios and professional photographers still exist. Sure, it might not be the glory days when kept the average person from owning a camera but the professional photography industry still exists. Pencil and paper is pretty common yet we still have people making livings as writers, artists, etc.,.

I think knowledge and experience is still valuable but you have to have unique knowledge and experience. If someone's knowledge and experience can be summed up in a handfull of YouTube videos then, yes, that person is in trouble. While not as instant-access and tech-hip as YouTube videos, how-to books, repair manuals and instructional videos have been around for ages. Growing up my parents' garage had a shelf full of how-to guides for home plumbing, electrical, framing & finishing, etc., and I remember going to the local auto parts store and buying Hayne's manuals for our cars.

Valuable knowledge will always be, well, valuable but it's always going to be a moving target as well.




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Walter Soyka
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 5:19:19 am

[Craig Seeman] "A long while back (over a year ago I believe) I had mentioned that I thought Apple might pursue networking over Thunderbolt. It certainly would be interesting."

Interesting like IP over Firewire?

I'll quote Steve Modica [link]: "There's Ethernet and EtherNOT and EtherNOT never wins."

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Dan Stewart
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 2:17:27 pm

But Small Tree themselves do a TB-Ip box right? I believe Walter Biscardi is a fan..



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Walter Soyka
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 3:22:25 pm

[Dan Stewart] "But Small Tree themselves do a TB-Ip box right? I believe Walter Biscardi is a fan.."

Small Tree's ThunderNET line are Thunderbolt-connected Ethernet adapters, whereas Craig is talking about replacing Ethernet entirely with Thunderbolt.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 3:53:03 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Interesting like IP over Firewire?"

I think TB is a bit faster than Firewire.

[Walter Soyka] ""There's Ethernet and EtherNOT and EtherNOT never wins.""

For the larger facility that might be correct. I have a hunch some will see IP TB as a lower budget ease of use method to cluster for rendering in some very small shops.

We have to see the details on actual implementation in Mavricks but I think it might be more useful that IP FIrewire is. It might be easier to implement for the not so tech savvy. There certainly wasn't much of a motive to use Firewire when Mac include GigE. TB might be a different story for some.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 4:03:41 pm

[Craig Seeman] "There certainly wasn't much of a motive to use Firewire when Mac include GigE."

There was when Macs had FW400 and 100Mbit Ethernet.


[Craig Seeman] "For the larger facility that might be correct. I have a hunch some will see IP TB as a lower budget ease of use method to cluster for rendering in some very small shops."

Why do you keep talking about this in terms of network render?

The physical networking is not the hard part of building a render farm. It's not even usually the bottleneck -- though the render nodes all banging on the same shared storage can be.

The client/server system for distributing assets needed for the render, assigning jobs to nodes, monitoring nodes' statuses, tolerating faults, and re-assembling the split output is the hard part of networked rendering.

I don't see signs that Apple is interested in this area. They discontinued XGrid, and when was the last major update to Qmaster?

Networking over Thunderbolt is far more interesting for simple shared NAS storage, which you can do today with AFP, than it is for networked rendering which you can do with Shake (EOLed 4 years ago) or Compressor (with its crummy encoders).

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Dan Stewart
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 4:51:16 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I don't see signs that Apple is interested in this area. They discontinued XGrid, and when was the last major update to Qmaster?"

I've heard so many horror stories about Qmaster.. how can Apple be so inept on this front? I know shops with literally dozens of iMacs & Pros who still sit on one machine for overnight renders.. I'm talking 40+ cores + gpus sat there doing nothing because Apple can't get their OWN machines running their OWN software to work properly??

Unless I'm missing something either reliable network rendering is impossible (yet I hear Episode are OK?) or Apple seriously JDGAF..



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Frank Gothmann
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 5:05:53 pm

Episode, Pf Farmer, Rhozet (PC) plus lots of other network render tools are working just fine. Qmaster is a total mess. Funny thing it, it actually works better with distributed AE renders than with Compressor (which is equally flawed as Qmaster).
All other tools make a lot more sense in terms of stability and a lot less prone to bringing your entire network down (Qmaster running on a network makes it virtually unusable for anything else) plus their are cross platform; building a render farm out of Macs isn't very economical.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Craig Seeman
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 5:11:36 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "building a render farm out of Macs isn't very economical."

It is if you own several of them. There's no reason to let unused cores sit idle.

[Frank Gothmann] "Qmaster is a total mess."

Yes and Compressor itself is not a very good encoder tool. Compressor will either go away or be completely re-written and I suspect one or the other will happen around the time Mavericks comes out or shortly thereafter.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 5:06:48 pm

[Dan Stewart] "Unless I'm missing something either reliable network rendering is impossible (yet I hear Episode are OK?)"

Episode clustering is dead simple and especially so compared to QMaster. Either Apple will make it similarly simple or third parties (like Episode) will be able to do this over Thunderbolt.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 5:25:11 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Episode clustering is dead simple and especially so compared to QMaster. Either Apple will make it similarly simple or third parties (like Episode) will be able to do this over Thunderbolt."

Or, you know, Ethernet, which people could be using to do this today with their existing Macs. In a small cluster of 2 or 3 Macs, gigabit Ethernet would be fast enough for clustered encoding -- yet how many people with multiple Macs are doing this?

I am not saying that IP over Thunderbolt is useless, but I don't see how you leap from "Mavericks will support IP over Thunderbolt" to "Apple is interested in clustering again."

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 5:49:32 pm

[Walter Soyka] "yet how many people with multiple Macs are doing this?"

Some Episode users I know but that's expensive as each participatory (rather than submission) machine requires a license. That's a cost barrier though, certainly not a complexity of use barrier. Episode's clustering is easy enough for a novice to do.... and may be what Apple will do... with Thunderbolt.

[Walter Soyka] "I am not saying that IP over Thunderbolt is useless, but I don't see how you leap from "Mavericks will support IP over Thunderbolt" to "Apple is interested in clustering again.""

I don't know that they are. It's just that I don't have the doubt you have given Apple's attempt to appeal to its definition of "Power user." Given that many Macs now have two thunderbolt ports (or more) new MacPro, both 21" and 27" iMacs, 13" and 15" rMBP, is just one more consideration for an "ease of use" implementation.

I certainly think it's possible a third party may take advantage of this. There's at least the possibility of a 10Gb solution that might be easier than going the Thunderbolt to 10Gb Ethernet solution.



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Frank Gothmann
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 6:06:47 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I certainly think it's possible a third party may take advantage of this. There's at least the possibility of a 10Gb solution that might be easier than going the Thunderbolt to 10Gb Ethernet solution."

Nevertheless, you're limited to the no. of TB ports on your serving machine -1 as it also has to connect to storage. There are no TB network switches. So, in case of the new Macpro that's five potential render slaves (if you have nothing else attached apart from storage, that is).
With five machines, you are unlikely to saturate even 1GB ethernet for render jobs so... why bother? A 1GB ethernet cable is a few dollars.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Craig Seeman
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 5:03:44 pm

[Walter Soyka] "There was when Macs had FW400 and 100Mbit Ethernet."

I'm not sure how long that period was given the PowerMac G4 introduced in 2000 had GigE.

[Walter Soyka] "or Compressor (with its crummy encoders)."

Which is either going to have a major overhaul or otherwise go away entirely in the near future. In either case, Apple may revisit networking. If they do it'll likely be geared towards ease of use (unlike QMaster) rather that deep user flexibility.

[Walter Soyka] "They discontinued XGrid, and when was the last major update to Qmaster?"

In Apple's case past doesn't always indicate future in that they drop things that don't meet their business model or user experience goals and then reintroduce as "new" when the technology gets to the point that they can do what they want to do with it.



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Mark Beazley
Re: Interesting thread on the San forum about the new Mac Pro
on Jun 16, 2013 at 6:58:11 pm

I think trying to setup a network like situation over TB is a dead end. The switch would be very expensive compared to GigE (and probably even 10gbit) switches and not make sense as has been suggested for a few machines.

I do lightwave renders over GigE with 3 8-Core MacPros and I never get the sense that it is even sweating.

It would probably be cheaper to just go with 10gbit ethernet, which already has devices and a strong foothold.

-mark



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