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Gary Huff
Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 4:33:13 am

The current Sandy Bridge Xeon E5 processor (8 core, 3.1Ghz) is $1934.

An AMD FIrePro S10000 card (dual GPU) with 6GB of memory is $3099.

32GB of DDR3-1600 is about $300, but adding 32GB to an iMac is $600.

Adding a 768GB SSD to an iMac is $900...surely the Mac Pro will have a 1TB SSD for even more.

So with currently available hardware/specs alone, we're looking at (just the guts) costing around $6533. Now, how exactly is the Mac Pro going to clock in at significantly less than that? One GPU? An Ivy Bridge Xeon with just 6 or 8 cores instead of 12?

Remember, there's still the margins and "Made in the U.S.A." as well.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 4:42:12 am

Plus motherboard, power supply, custom water cooling and the funky tube.....


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Charlie Austin
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 4:49:19 am

If you think Apple are going to be paying retail prices for components you're umm... probably wrong. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Michael Gissing
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 4:52:26 am

Apple will surely charge retail + prices so the comparison is valid


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 4:54:19 am

You've said it right there. Less RAM, lower-end processor, smaller SSD. Maybe the bottom is $3,999. Maybe $4,999.

With all media storage theoretically outbound, depending on the breadth of software the workstation runs, you might be able to configure it with as little as 256 or 500 GB HD.

But if you're trying to prove that a maxed out MacPro could run North of 6K, that would be no surprise to me. If you config an iMac maxed out with the SSD that already runs you $4,500. Take off a grand for the monitor and it's still $3,500.

Once you buy the displays, the 4K setup they pictured would probably be 20K. But for what you can do- that sounds cheap to me when I think about what an SD AVID setup cost only 15 years ago.

As a multi-year business expenditure, it's a easy decision for me.

* edited to add- when I started my business in 2006. I spent just north of 10K on my MacPro setup.



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Lance Bachelder
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 5:32:00 am

RAM will actually be more expensive because it is ECC at very fast speeds Also it does not use an SSD but flash storage via the PCIe bus which is why it is so fast. This type of storage is currently more expensive than SSD...

I'm certain there will be various BTO models and options like other current machines.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Chris Kenny
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 5:46:06 am

[Gary Huff] "So with currently available hardware/specs alone, we're looking at (just the guts) costing around $6533. Now, how exactly is the Mac Pro going to clock in at significantly less than that? One GPU? An Ivy Bridge Xeon with just 6 or 8 cores instead of 12? "

With a 6 core CPU, 8 GB of RAM, a 256 GB SSD and two mid-range GPUs they could probably hit a $2999 base price, especially if they've cut a deal with AMD that lets them get workstation GPUs without the full gratuitous price markup vs. similar high-end gaming GPUs.

They could hypothetically use 6 core i7 CPUs (which are also Socket 2011, so they wouldn't need a second version of the motherboard) and non-ECC RAM and probably get even lower on the base model, but I'd consider that pretty unlikely.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Mark Dobson
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 8:36:36 am

Given the democratisation of FCP with FCPX and with the new MacPro already being promoted within the FCPX advertising I'd be very surprised to see the very high figures that have been speculated in this thread.

Obviously this speculation is going to continue until a price is announced but I would see an entry level machine coming in at around $2.5K matching a moderately high specification 27" iMac.

I think that Apple would rather sell a lot of machines to the wide user base established by FCPX than a few machines to the very picky top end users.

The other speculation is when this computer is going to go on sale, could it be as early as this Autumn, now only a few months away or will it go up against the wire and be released in December? - that would be a long wait.


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Paul Figgiani
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 10:51:05 am

I agree with Mark Dobson. $6K base? No way.

There are a ton of people out there (like me) hanging on to legacy MacPros running FCPX that have been waiting for apple to offer a new MacPro. If they price the new model at $5-6K out of the box - they will loose a ton of potential buyers.

I realize what has been noted regarding the retail prices of the high end components. I'm sure apple has worked out deals with the chip makers. I also think apple dropped the price of FCPX to $300 in order to make it accessible to a much wider user base. If they optimize the MacPro to run X, it would make sense to at least offer BTO options and keep things reasonable.

I'm betting you will see a base model that will blow away my 2006 MacPro checking in at the $3K range. I'll be happy with that ...

-paul.


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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 11:21:03 am

[Paul Figgiani] " If they optimize the MacPro to run X, it would make sense to at least offer BTO options and keep things reasonable."

There's the iMac for that. The Mac Pro is for people who want serious speed.

For serious money.


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Brooks Tomlinson
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 7:23:49 pm

[Gary Huff] "There's the iMac for that. The Mac Pro is for people who want serious speed."

yep that was my though exactly, they cover the high end with mac pro. Mid level now shifts to the iMac. Low end with the macbook pro's. Now that it is all unified over thunderbolt, you can just upgrade your processing power as cash permits, and just keep the external devices.

Ugh, what I now wouldn't give for a lto thunderbolt solution that is south of $2,000.

Brooks Tomlinson
"I dream in 32bit float"


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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 11:21:51 am

[Chris Kenny] "With a 6 core CPU, 8 GB of RAM, a 256 GB SSD and two mid-range GPUs they could probably hit a $2999 base price, especially if they've cut a deal with AMD that lets them get workstation GPUs without the full gratuitous price markup vs. similar high-end gaming GPUs."

I don't see Apple offering that configuration at all. If you're going that low, you might as well get an iMac.


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Paul Dickin
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 11:49:04 am

[Gary Huff] "If you're going that low, you might as well get an iMac"
Hi
An iMac is fine for people with minimalist connectivity needs.
A 1080i/p edit suite doesn't need sizzle-core power, but it still needs a raft of connected devices - video I/O, audio I/O, legacy I/O adapters, RAID boxes, backup boxes (disk or tape) and even maybe more than one Gig-E port for NAS and networking at the same time.
All that is compromised by an iMac's two TB, one Gig-E limit.

Make a Mac Pro with specs just slightly faster than the top end iMac and that would be ALL a ton of edit suites would need: a 4 or 6 core Xeon with turbo top speed just better than the Haswell iMac will have, Two of the same Haswell iMac graphics sub-systems mounted by Apple into the Mac Pro internal cards, and a hard drive (or two BTO) from the new MacBook Air.

That would be MUCH BETTER for my edit-suite needs than an iMac...
Why should it cost any more than the iMac? The new Mac Pro case doesn't look more costly to make than an iMac.



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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 11:54:19 am

[Paul Dickin] "Why should it cost any more than the iMac? The new Mac Pro case doesn't look more costly to make than an iMac."

It's not the case, it's what's inside.


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Paul Dickin
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 11:56:42 am

LOL
That's what I said. Put an iMac's bits inside....
Price it like the iMac.



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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 11:57:41 am

[Paul Dickin] "That's what I said. Put an iMac's bits inside...."

They aren't going to do that. If you want cheap, get an iMac. If you want power, get a Mac Pro, and be prepared to pay for it.


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Bret Williams
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 3:52:00 pm

Connectivity aside, there's the mac mini for that. But I concur, a headless iMac or true MacMini Pro would be a wonderful answer. Many of us already had displays, and needed more connectivity, when we were forced to go to the iMac.

But really, I have all the connectivity I need, barely, for my little suite. I'm running an esata raid (connected to USB 3 to esata cable) a pegasus raid (hooked to TB) a second display (hooked to pegasus via mdp to DVD cable) a BM Ultrastudio Express (to other TB) hooked up to a FSI LM-2140W via SDI and a USB 3 raid (connected to USB 3) and a Blu-Ray burner and various mini usb 3 drives. Generally, I have to disconnect something like the Blu-Ray to plug in a clients usb drive, but no biggie. I could get a hub I guess.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 2:33:42 pm

[Gary Huff] "I don't see Apple offering that configuration at all. If you're going that low, you might as well get an iMac."

Dual GPUs and two additional CPU cores would distinguish that configuration from the iMac pretty effectively. That's not to say we'll necessarily see it, of course.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 11:36:45 am

Don't forget to add at least $1000 for Tblt to PCIe boxes for anyone that has raid controllers and i/o cards. Another hundred if you need external optical (I still have clients who demand DVD).

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 11:58:30 am

I should also point out that a 12-core 3.0Ghz, 32GB, 512GB SSD version of the previous Mac Pro model is $7800.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 12:18:53 pm

Exactly. Expensive things are expensive. This should not come as a surprise.



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Dan Stewart
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 12:47:39 pm

'I should also point out that a 12-core 3.0Ghz, 32GB, 512GB SSD version of the previous Mac Pro model is $7800.'

Anyone care to price that as an equivalent Hackintosh box?

FWIW the tube seems like, as has been said:

12 core Xeon, 2x firepros with 3gb each..
Plus 32gb ram, 1tb Flash shop installed & with the traditional 100% Apple premium.

Plus $1000 3 way tbolt chassis for network, i/o & rockets etc & a Pegasus raid box to get bulk storage back up to internal speeds..

New 4k Cinema displays aside (but you know you'll spring for one when you're that deep in)

-hate to say it but unless it does the work of 2 $5k boxes I don't think its likely I'll get to use one of these until they're 4 year old paperweights..


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Bobby Mosca
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 1:08:34 pm

I think the comparisons to the iMacs are at least a bit off. For one, Xeons vs Haswells. Second, dual GPUs vs just one. And finally, has no one noticed the iMacs are made with NOTEBOOK graphics? (Please correct me if that last one doesn't matter, but I have hard time imagining that.)


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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 1:18:06 pm

But that's the point. A fully spec'd out iMac is $3500 and it doesn't come close to the specs of the new Mac Pro, which will be so current that it utilizes hardware that's not even available yet on the market.


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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 1:17:16 pm

Anyone care to price that as an equivalent Hackintosh box?

$2400-ish for the processors, motherboard, twin 5770s, and 32GB ECC RAM.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 1:27:20 pm

[Dan Stewart] " 2x firepros with 3gb each.."

I thought it was 6GB a piece for 12 total?

Also, aren't these the OEM Firepros and not general consumption Firepros?


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Rick Lang
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 2:16:55 pm

Jeremy:
"I thought it was 6GB a piece for 12 total?

Also, aren't these the OEM Firepros and not general consumption Firepros?"

I originally thought it was a custom version of the AMD FirePro S10000 but that has a total of 6GB used by two GPUs in one card. Then others suggested it was two of the AMD FirePro W9000 which is a single GPU with up to 6GB. I have read Apple'c copy and looked at the WWDC presentation again and it does seem to say a GPU with up to 6 GB and the standard machine has two of them. To me that means a total of 12GB VRAM. Certainly the GPU is very custom as the published specs from Apple and AMD do not fit in any respect for either W9000 or S10000 except the reference to 6GB VRAM. And so we wait to find out more accurate information.

As for price of the entry-level: Apple has said even the entry-level is dual GPU and next generation Xeon so you won't see an iMac Haswell i7 processor. The entry-level.will still be a step up from the high-end iMac in all respects with the possible exception of memory size, internal storage, and of course the lack of a screen. I imagine it will have one PCIe flash storage of 500GB with an upgrade to 1TB possible with 16GB RAM and a 6-core CPU. Would be better if it started with 1TB flash storage and 32GB RAM. Historically entry-level machines are designed to be low-priced more than ideally useful and Apple may continue that thinking even though the specs at the lowest end might disappoint. But it will let them say, "from $2,499." Of course very few will buy without some BTO improvements to the entry-level. The beefier 12-core will begin at $3,499. The high end configuration will be $4,999.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 3:17:25 pm

[Rick Lang] "I originally thought it was a custom version of the AMD FirePro S10000 but that has a total of 6GB used by two GPUs in one card. Then others suggested it was two of the AMD FirePro W9000 which is a single GPU with up to 6GB. I have read Apple'c copy and looked at the WWDC presentation again and it does seem to say a GPU with up to 6 GB and the standard machine has two of them. To me that means a total of 12GB VRAM. Certainly the GPU is very custom as the published specs from Apple and AMD do not fit in any respect for either W9000 or S10000 except the reference to 6GB VRAM. And so we wait to find out more accurate information."

If you look at this page, then look towards the bottom, you will see the desktop version, the mobile version, then the OEM version (called the A300 here).

http://www.fireprographics.com/adobe/index.asp

That seems to be what would be in the MacPro if it is a closed GPU system, right?

[Rick Lang] "As for price of the entry-level: Apple has said even the entry-level is dual GPU and next generation Xeon so you won't see an iMac Haswell i7 processor. The entry-level.will still be a step up from the high-end iMac in all respects with the possible exception of memory size, internal storage, and of course the lack of a screen. I imagine it will have one PCIe flash storage of 500GB with an upgrade to 1TB possible with 16GB RAM and a 6-core CPU. Would be better if it started with 1TB flash storage and 32GB RAM. Historically entry-level machines are designed to be low-priced more than ideally useful and Apple may continue that thinking even though the specs at the lowest end might disappoint. But it will let them say, "from $2,499." Of course very few will buy without some BTO improvements to the entry-level. The beefier 12-core will begin at $3,499. The high end configuration will be $4,999."

Yes, depending on if you get third party RAM or not, my guess is that this machine, in a maxed out CPU/GPU config with third party RAM and perhaps third party PCIe boot drives will be just shy of $8000.

My guess is that they will have lower cores, and also lower VRAM options to knock down the price. I think you are spot on about the $2499 price as an entry point.


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Paul Dickin
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 4:32:07 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "If you look at this page, then look towards the bottom, you will see the desktop version, the mobile version, then the OEM version (called the A300 here).
http://www.fireprographics.com/adobe/index.asp
That seems to be what would be in the MacPro if it is a closed GPU system, right?
"

Hi
According to that page's links the A300/A320 are '"accelerated processors" only using DDD3 memory, so don't seem to fit the info that Apple have sneak previewed.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 4:40:29 pm

[Paul Dickin] "Hi
According to that page's links the A300/A320 are '"accelerated processors" only using DDD3 memory, so don't seem to fit the info that Apple have sneak previewed.
"


Thank you.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 4:48:44 pm

[Paul Dickin] "According to that page's links the A300/A320 are '"accelerated processors" only using DDD3 memory, so don't seem to fit the info that Apple have sneak previewed."

Sheesh, I should have just read the PDF.


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Rick Lang
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 5:29:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "If you look at this page, then look towards the bottom, you will see the desktop version, the mobile version, then the OEM version (called the A300 here).

http://www.fireprographics.com/adobe/index.asp

That seems to be what would be in the MacPro if it is a closed GPU system, right?
"


Thanks for the feedback, Jeremy. Adobe and AMD are sure doing a great marketing job for the OpenCL consortium! I've always looked to NVIDIA for the best performance I thought I would need personally but AMD with Adobe and Apple are forcing us to look elsewhere this time and it may not be a bad thing.

You may well be right about the A300. But at this time, I'm not sure unless it is an unannounced next-generation version of the A300 series. Nothing here quite fits the Mac Pro Tube descriptions. I'm still guessing that it may not be off-the-shelf and Apple may never say. That's one way to distinguish your offering and get the price-point you want. IFixIt or their partner that X-rays chips will tell us eventually.
http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/APU/Page...

I am sure when this is released, there will be third-party products announced ready for shipment that will take advantage of the opportunity to complete the picture in terms of using Thunderbolt 2 interfaces on their peripheral equipment. Certainly LaCie and Promise will be there day one for storage at least. I can't speculate about the PCIe extenders since I only have a cursory knowledge and no need to use then but likely one will be there day one too.

$8,000 for the high-end configuration taken to the max may be a very good estimate. Fortunately, I'll never know since I don't plan to go that high personally. I am going to wait for the BMD DaVinci Resolve 10 Configuration Guide to tell me what I need to make full use of the BMD BMPC4K camera shooting raw 3840x2160! I'm sure they already know but can't say yet. Thanks again for your insights.

Edit: Sorry about my gentle remarks doubting the A300. I posted this in response to your reply to me without reading the later posts from Paul and you. Yes I saw that is an APU using DDR3 memory, but I thought you may have information I didn't see. Next time, I'll try to fit into the attack mindset here and say something like, "Read the fact sheet!!!" Ah, that feels better, eh?

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 4:45:33 pm

The beefier 12-core will begin at $3,499. The high end configuration will be $4,999.

There is no way it's going to be that cheap.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 1:28:48 pm

[Dan Stewart] "Anyone care to price that as an equivalent Hackintosh box? "

2x6 core Xeons (2.5)
32 meg ram
Invidia Titan
960 GB SSD

$7000 - from Pugent Sound, well known PC integrator.
http://www.pugetsystems.com/nav/genesis/II/customize.php

DIY probably 6 - 6.5K

But remeber most editors will have to add 1K for external Tblt to PCIe expansion case when buying the Tube. So if the base cost is equal, then the Hackintosh is already that much cheaper.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Brett Sherman
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 1:48:51 pm

[Herb Sevush] "But remeber most editors will have to add 1K for external Tblt to PCIe expansion case when buying the Tube. So if the base cost is equal, then the Hackintosh is already that much cheaper."

I won't and I'm not sure why you would unless you're trying to use existing PCIe cards. So certainly not true for new workstations where you might just buy thunderbolt equivalents to PCIe cards anyways or get drive unit-based RAIDs where you don't need a card.

I would not want the headache of a Hackintosh.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 1:50:29 pm

[Brett Sherman] "I won't and I'm not sure why you would unless you're trying to use existing PCIe cards."

Yes, I'm not interested in throwing out 10K worth of raids just yet.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Neil Hurwitz
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 2:54:11 pm

Gentlemen,
Even though I have retired from the biz, I still follow along with the technology
So here’s my two cents:
Apple appears to be changing their tune here about exactly what a
Professional level machine is. IE: From a fully integrated box
To a “Core” that will be customized with ad-ons so that the buyer can
configure the system to exactly what they want. Remember that video
Is not the only use for this product, there is 3D modeling, Print,
Photograpy and More. If I were a designer at any of the add-on companies
I would be burning the night designing a round expansion chassis that holds
Lets say 5 full length cards vertically as well as 8 drives that has enough
Heft for the New Mac Pro to sit on top of.. Then all you need is a nose cone
And you got a nice looking contraption.( Paint it like a Saturn 5)
What’s it worth to you to Show off your stuff?
Clients don’t really know too much about what you
Got running in the boxes But they will know if you don’t have the new
Round One. This is Show Business. Make a show of it.
I also get a kick out of the whole discussion and speculation about
The cost of this new machine. My question is,
If you are working professionally, If you make decent margins,
What difference does it make?
I have done the math for you
If you go out and purchase a new Mac Pro and a Shopping cart
Full of accessories and spend a total of, lets say 12,000
Then you short term finance it for 24 months (longer would not be smart)
At 7.5%, Zero Residual value It would cost a Whopping 540 bucks a month.
So once again, What difference does it make?
You gotta sell the SIZZLE a Little.
All these new fantastic tools are just plain cheap to anybody that knows
What a Quadra 950 running MC8000 was.
There are those who will say that financing is stupid and dangerous
What happens if this or that happens?
Well gents there are simply no guarantees in whatever you do, so
To them I say Match expense with Revenue. If the machine is going to
Make you money over time, Pay for it over time.
To those who say I’ve got this much invested in this Raid or that Card
I say, Spending money on this level of equipment should not be considered an Investment
But an ongoing expense, It’s not like a CD from the bank.
You have to have the mindset that,
No matter what you buy after two years it’s gonna be Land-fill


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 3:22:17 pm

Neil, I can tell you've retired from the biz because you have no idea how margins have shrunk. Whats the difference between spending 12K and 6K - well it's $250/month which I would rather have in my pocket. There is no sizzle to sell, my clients have never even seen my editing room, most have never been to my office, but I'm supposed to dump 10K worth of PCIe raids and spend that amount plus another 12K to show off a sno-cone to clients who's office is 200 miles away? Thanks for the advice, but no thanks.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 4:37:50 pm

To counter that- I work in several "virtual workgroups". Some as a defacto partner, and others as a straight freelancer. Over the past 5 years we've pillaged loads of business from high-end agencies and post houses. Not necessarily because our prices are that much cheaper [though sometimes we are where agencies have gotten particularly comfortable with huge commercial margins...].

All this is to say that the idea of internal storage in MacPro setup is completely useless to me now. Work comes to me on client-specific drives, and that's where it lives while I work on the job until I deliver it. Outbound storage allows me to keep clients work compartmentalized and portable. Only when I get material on a USB drive [my iMac is pre USB3] will I bother to copy it to one of my base TB work drives. And as I educate clients to buy TB storage that becomes less and less of an issue.

So this configuration is worth it to me.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 5:40:13 pm

[Marcus Moore] "All this is to say that the idea of internal storage in MacPro setup is completely useless to me now."

Internal storage is not the issue, PCIe lanes are. When I get client drives they are no way fast enough for me to work with. Everything gets copied to my very fast external raids and it's the lack of internal PCIe slots for my controllers that are the issue.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 15, 2013 at 2:38:21 am

[Marcus Moore] "Work comes to me on client-specific drives, and that's where it lives while I work on the job until I deliver it."

Wow! You are brave. I NEVER work on a client's drive. I treat their drives as if they are maser tapes, always copy to one of my RAIDs, and shelve their drives until I return them. Maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I thought that's how everyone else worked, too.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 15, 2013 at 2:55:02 am

The drive that comes to me is never the only version of the camera originals.

As long as I back up my project files and third party media, I know there's redant backups of raw media should anything... untoward happen.

Again. I've educated and influenced my clients on what drives to buy. FW800 has been the standard for a while, but I've started to push TB drives where it makes sense.



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Chris Harlan
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 15, 2013 at 3:03:49 am

Sorry. That came off rudely. I didn't mean to question your process or your professionalism. I think my abundance of caution just come from days of tape, times when RAID drives were very expensive, and portable drives were far too slow to work from. I'll continue that way, but its probably an idiosyncrasy on my part.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 15, 2013 at 3:34:38 am

No offence taken.

I'm not so young not to remember all the things you mention. I actually started cutting on film, and my fair share of A/B tape as well, before getting onto an AVID in '95.

My recollection is that when we finally moved over to FCP it was at the start of the DV revolution. And FW400 drives seemed to be equal to the task of cutting DV/HDV as long as you weren't doing Multicam. And since FW800 was released, it been good for everything save uncompressed or DVCPro50. That is until these RAW formats started popping up.

Because I fly in and out of jobs, clients sent me the material, and when I send it back to them they take exclusive responsibility for archiving.



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Neil Hurwitz
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 5:12:17 pm

Herb,
I am truly glad to be out of this biz.
It was my life for Twenty Five years and you know what
I made more money from 1980 to 2000 with old school,
really old school stuff than anybody can make today.
I didn't care about awards (although my shop and guys won a boatload)
I was in it to MAKE MONEY. Nobody cares about the commercials or
shows we did a few years ago.
So you're correct, I quess if a 250.00 buck difference a month
means a whole lot, then margins must be NON-EXISTANT
If you bill 125 hours a month (part time work in my book)and working
with NEW, BETTER,FASTER tools, which will allow you to
complete tasks quicker adds 2 bucks an hour to your cost
and it's a deal breaker, then the guy driving a black car limo
must be making more than you because he's got to buy, maintain, gas and insure the vehicle.
It must be really hard to not have face to face interaction
with your clients and be locked up in an edit suite all day?
For me the people and characters that I encountered on a daily
basis and playing with all the new toys was what made
this business fun.
Like I said before, I am Truly Glad to be out of this biz
I ain't NO DIGITAL SLAVE


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 3:23:55 pm

[Herb Sevush] "es, I'm not interested in throwing out 10K worth of raids just yet."

Thunderbolt does not require a Thunderbolt RAID.

For instance, we have a mixed fibre and LAN raid.

I can choose to hawk our existing ATTO cards in favor of a TBolt ATTO box, or I can get a PCIe expansion chassis and put our current ATTO cards in there.

Yes, I will spend money either way, but it is how I spend that money in the most flexible way that will help me the most.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 3:25:05 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Yes, I will spend money either way, but it is how I spend that money in the most flexible way that will help me the most."

Huh? I don't even know what that means.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 3:28:34 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Huh? I don't even know what that means."

And I thought that was your most brilliant posting to date.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 3:33:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Thunderbolt does not require a Thunderbolt RAID."

I understand that, but for me it would require some sort of Tblt to PCIe expansion case for 3 cards, and that's a thousand dollars I wouldn't have to spend on any other workstation out there. Brett was asking why I needed the PCIe connection and the reason is my investment in PCIe raids.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 3:35:23 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I understand that, but for me it would require some sort of Tblt to PCIe expansion case for 3 cards, and that's a thousand dollars I wouldn't have to spend on any other workstation out there. Brett was asking why I needed the PCIe connection and the reason is my investment in PCIe raids."

But if you spend flexibly, it will be the most flexible.



In all honesty, I get it. TBolt will have an initial "investment" tax.

What PCIe cards do you have?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 3:50:43 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What PCIe cards do you have?"

ATTO 680 controller(raid + LTO drive)
Arreca controller (older raid)
blackmagic decklink i/0

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 4:08:14 pm

[Herb Sevush] "ATTO 680 controller(raid + LTO drive)
Arreca controller (older raid)
blackmagic decklink i/0"


You'd also have to check for "thunderbolt aware" drivers.

ATTO is set, not sure about the Areca.

No doubt it will require a bit of coin.

At least all of your TBolt v1 devices won't be slower than the new Tbolt v2 devices that are sure to come to market? :)


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 5:31:36 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "No doubt it will require a bit of coin."

Everything requires a bit of coin, the Tblt-PCIe thing is just another part of the calculation. As on the NLE side there are now lots of options:

- Tube with PCIe extensions
- Hackintosh
- PC/Linux Workstation

pairing that with

FCPX - MAC only - best Multicam, negative on the rest
Avid - MAC & PC - good multicam, like stepping backwards in time
Ppro - Mac & PC - inadequate multicam, CC a negative, best suite of tools
Lightworks - Mac, PC, Linux - have no idea if it's suitable for my workflow

The decision matrix for next year is getting interesting.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 7:14:46 pm

The decision matrix for next year is getting interesting.

Reminds me of the supposed Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times."


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Bill Davis
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 9:37:03 pm

[Herb Sevush] "FCPX - MAC only - best Multicam, negative on the rest"

Unless it isn't.

Hear that? That silence? It's all the folks here still bitching about magnetism. And "shudder" connected clips. And vertical verses horizontal arrangements. And the "lack" of absolute time. Etc. etc. etc.

All these things that were supposed to be major "deal breakers" and huge problems are now seen as just alternative ways to work. They don't seem to be stopping large swaths of editors from using the software productively.

X is now widely viewed as perfectly rational editing program based on serious editors getting serious work done on it every day. It's chock full of lots of nice features. Sure it's no more "perfect" than any other solution, but it IS perfectly capable of getting LOTS of jobs done start to finish.

So it's fair to ask if your 'negative on the rest" is just personal resistance.

Cuz fewer and fewer people seem so see X as lacking all that much as a general editing tool.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 11:40:55 pm

[Bill Davis] "So it's fair to ask if your 'negative on the rest" is just personal resistance. "

It's totally personal. As is my description of Avid "like taking a step backwards in time." As is my negativity to Adobe's Creative Cloud. Funny how none of those other personal reactions bothered you.

As for the rest - well Bill you'll notice I still have FCPX in my decision matrix, meaning I haven't ruled it out, meaning my negative feelings about the magnetic timeline are not a deal breaker for me, they're just something I have to factor into the equation, just like the lack of PCIe lanes in the Tube - I may not like it, but it still might be the best way for me to go.

I long ago gave up on having everything my way.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 14, 2013 at 5:29:11 am

[Herb Sevush] "As for the rest - well Bill you'll notice I still have FCPX in my decision matrix, meaning I haven't ruled it out, meaning my negative feelings about the magnetic timeline are not a deal breaker for me, they're just something I have to factor into the equation, just like the lack of PCIe lanes in the Tube - I may not like it, but it still might be the best way for me to go.

I long ago gave up on having everything my way.
"


Well noted.

Well reasoned.

Point to you.

Period.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 3:29:58 pm

Then one has to factor in the new ThB IOs, external HDDs, that surely will add up!
Truth is MacPros (and iMacs and PCs) are going to go along with the new MacPro in this ride.
But I'm hopeful this new development could bring some needed benefits to other macs too.
Apple should be praised for their fresh investing on creative power, despite their often disruptive manners.
So they have the MacPro painted in black for a reason, that's due to a monstrous money black hole...
Wait until you see the special translucent Apple's HQ edition! ;-)


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Brooks Tomlinson
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 7:40:09 pm

One of the things keeping me from an iMAC, (besides it not being powerful enough) is the lack of user replaceable hard drive. I mean really, have you looked at how hard it is to access iMac's HD? I have had bad luck with HD, and want that quick turn around in case something goes wrong. That's why I bought a retina over the iMac, at least I could replace/upgrade the harddrive. I've allways had good luck with ram, so I tend to error to replacing HD ease vs. ram.

It looks like replacing ram and hd in the mac pro will be a snap. (as long as they don't solder it in place. that would piss me off)

the word on the street is they gfx is solder? anyone confirm?

Brooks Tomlinson
"I dream in 32bit float"


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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 7:54:59 pm

Well, therein lies the rub for nearly all of Apple's latest PC's, right? I am adept enough to replace a drive within an hour in case of failure. But now, in a crunch, you'd have to make a Genius Bar appointment and probably end up having to replace an entire unit to get any kind of fast turnaround time.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 13, 2013 at 11:46:14 pm

[Gary Huff] "But now, in a crunch, you'd have to make a Genius Bar appointment and probably end up having to replace an entire unit to get any kind of fast turnaround time."

In a crunch just boot to an external drive. Problem solved.



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Chris Kenny
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 14, 2013 at 3:03:45 am

[Gary Huff] "But now, in a crunch, you'd have to make a Genius Bar appointment and probably end up having to replace an entire unit to get any kind of fast turnaround time."

On the other hand, for facilities with multiple Mac Pros, if one of them goes down in a suite during a client session or something, you can just grab another one and swap it in by hooking up some cables — you won't have to move a bunch of drives or PCIe cards over.

And Genius Bar turnaround can be impressive these days. A few months back Apple swapped a rMBP screen for me in less than an hour.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 14, 2013 at 3:59:04 am

[Chris Kenny] "On the other hand, for facilities with multiple Mac Pros, if one of them goes down in a suite during a client session or something, you can just grab another one and swap it in by hooking up some cables — you won't have to move a bunch of drives or PCIe cards over."

Yeah, that's definitely not going to be most of us (and isn't "facilities are going away!" one of the rallying cries of this subforum?) especially if the Mac Pro is, as I suspect it's going to be, is around $6k entry level.


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Daniel Frome
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 14, 2013 at 2:35:54 pm

Funny...when I first bought my rMBP I was having thunderbolt connectivity issues with my Pegasus TB raid. I took the machine to the apple store and they just gave me a new rMBP. Didn't even bother to fix.


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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 14, 2013 at 5:53:49 pm

[Daniel Frome] "unny...when I first bought my rMBP I was having thunderbolt connectivity issues with my Pegasus TB raid. I took the machine to the apple store and they just gave me a new rMBP. Didn't even bother to fix."

Exactly. And if you've had it for a while, and it's all configured, how are you going to return it to the setup that you want/need? The App Store helps a bit in that regard since it's super-easy to get all of your apps installed, but not everything's on the app store.

Just make sure you have Time Machine backups I guess.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 14, 2013 at 8:14:38 pm

Precisely. Over TB, restoring a TimeMachine backup is about an hour for the average HD. Then you're back precisely where you were.

A failed bootcamping of my wife's iMac could have ended horribly. But with Time Machine she never knew I did anything wrong (whew!).



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Juan Manuel
Re: Mac Pro Pricing
on Jun 14, 2013 at 2:29:33 pm

[Brooks Tomlinson] "One of the things keeping me from an iMAC, (besides it not being powerful enough) is the lack of user replaceable hard drive. I mean really, have you looked at how hard it is to access iMac's HD? I have had bad luck with HD, and want that quick turn around in case something goes wrong. That's why I bought a retina over the iMac, at least I could replace/upgrade the harddrive. I've allways had good luck with ram, so I tend to error to replacing HD ease vs. ram.

It looks like replacing ram and hd in the mac pro will be a snap. (as long as they don't solder it in place. that would piss me off)

the word on the street is they gfx is solder? anyone confirm?

Brooks Tomlinson
"I dream in 32bit float""
I don't think anyone can confirm until at least pre-production units are given to specialized press or something. I think I've read somewhere that the gfx could be replaced. However, as they are probably using some kind of custom made interface/connector, I'd say it's very likely only Apple will have replacement gpus and they won't sell them to the public for a bit of DIY


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