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Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?

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Dennis Radeke
Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:30:07 pm

I'm curious as to opinions.

No PCI-E, but more Thunderbolt (and 2x the speed)
Dual GPUs, but are they upgradeable in a few years?
Max RAM?
etc......

Yeah or nay ladies and gentlemen?


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Julian Smith
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:30:30 pm

Yay for me


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:32:21 pm

Perhaps you can help us - how well will Adobe Apps support Open CL on the AMD cards in it when it comes out? If there is no NVidia and therefore CUDA Option will there be a massive performance benefit from using a PC instead of it?

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:48:13 pm

[Steve Connor] "Perhaps you can help us - how well will Adobe Apps support Open CL on the AMD cards in it when it comes out? If there is no NVidia and therefore CUDA Option will there be a massive performance benefit from using a PC instead of it?"

We support certain OpenCL chips today with CS6 and I'm confident that you will see more about OpenCL on June 17th. ;-) More info then!


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:24:42 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "
We support certain OpenCL chips today with CS6 and I'm confident that you will see more about OpenCL on June 17th. ;-) More info then!"


This will certainly be a determining factor for me, since I use both Apple and Adobe software.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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David McGavran
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:28:44 pm

Dennis we don't need to wait until the 17th... We support OpenCL on AMD cards with CC. We also support Dual GPU for rendering. Premiere will max out these systems when the ship.

Cheers

Dave

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David McGavran, Adobe Systems Incorporated
Senior Engineering Manager Adobe Premiere Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:31:13 pm

[David McGavran] "Dennis we don't need to wait until the 17th... We support OpenCL on AMD cards with CC. We also support Dual GPU for rendering. Premiere will max out these systems when the ship.

Cheers

Dave"


That is good news

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:34:42 pm

Need real world performance and price info first.

I guessed it would be a 'super mac mini' w/only external expansion via Thunderbolt and I was close. I got the shape wrong, lol. The industrial design is very interesting (ex. all components share a single heat sink which is the hollow center of the tube) but needs some real world testing to see if it's worth it or not.




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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 12, 2013 at 7:46:19 am

Pricing history on Mac Pros suggests that the pricing will be pretty close to what it has been. G4s to G5s to intel were all around the same pricing when the next gen machines were introduced as I recall. They could change this behavior, but I don't think they will.

This machine will make FCP X really sing I'll wager, and run anything you can throw at it for at least it's logical lifetime expectancy. It's about a 4 year lifespan to run current Pro Apps well from all the majors seems like. Then along comes a new wiz bang software you need more power for...

This Mac is about the same size as the original Macintosh. Bit faster eh?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Craig Shields
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:37:49 pm

Can't you use one of the Thunderbolt ports and a Thunderbolt chassis for any needed expansion?



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Julian Smith
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:40:18 pm

Exactly


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:41:20 pm

100 per cent fail on every level.
I am super happy we decided to leave Apple behind. It would be very, very tough to come up with something more compromised and stupid as a workstation replacement.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Julian Smith
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:42:50 pm

Each to their own


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Ken Zukin
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:43:22 pm

Care to elaborate a bit on that, Frank??


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James Cude
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:19:10 pm

"I am super happy we decided to leave Apple behind"

Good for you, vote with your wallet.


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David Mathis
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:42:45 pm

Can we upgrade the video card? Can we add an external DVD drive? Why does this "thing" look like something of a Star Trek movie? Inquiring minds, mine included need to know! At least it will be made in the USA, have to give them credit for that.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:45:28 pm

[David Mathis] "Can we upgrade the video card? Can we add an external DVD drive? Why does this "thing" look like something of a Star Trek movie? Inquiring minds, mine included need to know! At least it will be made in the USA, have to give them credit for that.
"


I think the answers are no and yes as long as the external drive uses USB or Thunderbolt.

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/




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Jim Giberti
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 10:03:42 pm

[David Mathis] " Why does this "thing" look like something of a Star Trek movie? "

Does it?
It looks like a pretty common shape to me...like you find in every drawing program and shelf and fridge.
Basically you can go circular, square, rectangular or cylindrical. I'm guessing they put a bit of thought into it. I suppose it could have been triangular for effect.

What would you have a new evolution of Mac computer designed in 2013 look like, your 20 year-old Quadra?


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Phil Hoppes
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:44:32 pm

Loser - for my needs at least. For video only I'm sure it should work quite well. I do 3D work. ALL 3D renders for production on CPU cores. Quadro and all of the video card engines are nice for fast preview rendering but non of the CGI graphic rendering engines do final render on graphic cards because all of the shaders and effects needed are not supported. For me, in the end, it's CPU threads. This MacPro is limited to a single CPU. No matter what it costs I'm sure I can build my own Dual Xeon 12 core machine for what Apple wants for a single. Plus, your limited to ONLY AMD graphics. If that works for you great. If not, your hosed.

I can just see the ads now for all of the spaghetti ad on's to wrestle in all of the T-Bolt cables you will need for peripherals.

GET THE NEW MAC PRO OCTOPUS .......
GET THE NEW MAC PRO Tether Master ......
Mac Pro Flying Spaghetti Monsters on sale at Best Buy......


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:47:13 pm

[Phil Hoppes] "Loser - for my needs at least. For video only I'm sure it should work quite well. I do 3D work. ALL 3D renders for production on CPU cores. Quadro and all of the video card engines are nice for fast preview rendering but non of the CGI graphic rendering engines do final render on graphic cards because all of the shaders and effects needed are not supported. For me, in the end, it's CPU threads. This MacPro is limited to a single CPU. No matter what it costs I'm sure I can build my own Dual Xeon 12 core machine for what Apple wants for a single. Plus, your limited to ONLY AMD graphics. If that works for you great. If not, your hosed.
"


If I did lots of 3D work I wouldn't have been using Apple for a while!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Phil Hoppes
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:53:22 pm

I haven't. All of my work in on custom built Win7 desktops and servers. I do have the last of the nice 17" MBP which I boot camp to Win7 and have MtnLion. For quick and dirty stuff it's nice to run some things on the Mac side. (Modo and Maya) but all renders are on Windows.

I was curious what Apple would do. I was on of the "MacPro is Dead" doom sayers, so I'll have a plate of Crow for dinner, but given what the did release, I have no second guesses on my decision to drop them 3 years ago.

For the people that really need/want MacPro's I hope this fulfills what they need. It will be interesting to see what they charge.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:08:17 pm

[Phil Hoppes] "This MacPro is limited to a single CPU."

12 cores. Says so on the page linked to
http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
The new Mac Pro is muscle through and through, starting with the new-generation Intel Xeon E5 chipset. With configurations offering up to 12 cores of processing power,



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Phil Hoppes
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:53:02 pm

Yea... 12 cores in a single CPU. I can build a board with 2 or 4 Xenon CPU's depending on just how deep my pockets are. A single CPU with 12 cores has 24 threads. A Dual CPU board will have 48 threads. A Quad CPU will have 96 threads. I need all of the threads I can get. A single CPU does not cut it for what I do.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 12, 2013 at 5:08:49 pm

I think the third-party manufactures will have to adapt to this machine to take advantage of all that raw power. So it will be interesting at NAB 2014! it makes a lot of sense for most pro users. Some enterprising company with the graphics GPU acceleration might do well in a couple of years.. If there's really a need , after all this has extremely beefy graphics already. FCP X.1 will likely amaze. Apple usually has 10 year plans for everything. We start year 3 with FCP X this year. Apple likely spec'd this machine 4 years ago.

Jerry


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larry towers
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:47:48 pm

Loser. Complete loser. A mac mini on steroids. Thunderbolt 2 is not fast enough to support Multiple fast graphics cards. Its the equivalent of a PCIE 3.o x 4 slot BFD. Wow. Amazingly terrible. I don't know what to do for next year. We have 30 2008 macPros to replace that I held off on. WOW just wow. I can't believe how terrible this is!



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David Mathis
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:58:01 pm

[larry towers] "Loser. Complete loser. A mac mini on steroids."

I can see a new forum coming and it will be a debate on whether to go with the Mac Pro or something else. It will be interesting for sure.


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:16:47 pm

[larry towers] "Loser. Complete loser. A mac mini on steroids. Thunderbolt 2 is not fast enough to support Multiple fast graphics cards. Its the equivalent of a PCIE 3.o x 4 slot BFD. Wow. Amazingly terrible. I don't know what to do for next year. We have 30 2008 macPros to replace that I held off on. WOW just wow. I can't believe how terrible this is!"

Just change your name to Larry Tubes.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 10:26:13 pm

Looks like it has two fast graphics cards already. Plenty of bandwidth. Very fast RAM. Looks extremely powerful for video. For anyone moving on from Adobe, looks quite attractive, especially FCPX, naturally. Aperture should fly too, my preferred photo app. Wonder what quality comes out of the HDMI 1.4 port? Thunderbolt T-Tap or Blackmagic for monitoring if necessary, cheap. Thunderbolt 2 looks good: Apple or someone is going to have to provide enclosures for storage and external PCIe as well for those that need it. AJA ioXT for acquisition will work fine. LaCie or something for eSATA, miss that. Looks like up to 64GB removable very fast 1866 Mhz RAM with 3rd party possible. 32GB sticks would allow up to 128, but for my purposes 32GB total is plenty.

I'm glad to see a very high performance machine from Apple. No need for Windows for me, ever. With a 2010 and a 2012 Mac Pro Tower for my PCIe needs, legacy software, and Adobe CS6 (no CC, thanks), and this next year, I should be set. I can adjust to the new model. Sounds like an upgrade to X is coming when the new Mac Pro releases. I WILL be learning FCPX.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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larry towers
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 11:42:59 pm

Plenty of bandwidth? For what? Only the processor. ONLY 7% TOTAL bandwidth is available for ALL external devices.

20gbps vs 40GBps
That is not enough for a pro solution. The numbers look great until you realize they are comparing the top of the line new mac pro to the current entry level mac pro.



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Chris Jacek
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 7:56:45 pm

Fail IMO. No internal expandability tells us everything we need to know. This is not a workstation. It is a beefed up Mini of Cube meant to be replaced every 18-24 months. People generally expect a longer lifespan out of a workstation. But all of those TB2 ports are relevant only until TB3 comes out.

Of course, the price will dictate how well this computer will do. If it is priced as a Mini or Cube, then maybe it has a chance to thrive as a "planned obsolescence" Apple gadget. I find that unlikely, however. If its price tag is over $2000, I don't see it as an attractive option when you consider all the external add-ons you'll need to buy just to bring its capabilities up to that of a traditional workstation.

Also, can anyone remember when a heavily daisy-chained solution was the most efficient or most desirable solution? Remember when people would pay the "Apple Tax" BECAUSE they offered the most desirable solution?

To me, there is no longer any incentive to stay on the Apple platform at all. You will pay extra for extra headaches.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Nicholas Zimmerman
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:03:37 pm

I was planning to buy the new machine day & date. I waited four years with a 1,1 in the hopes it would receive a decent update, and finally last week I bought a used 3,1 to bide the time until the new one. Now I'm feeling a bit lost. Not sure if I'll get the new one or just build a Hackintosh at this point. I really don't have a need for a small desktop, that's why it's at my desk.

--------------------------
Avid MC, PPro CS6, FCP7 - wasting away on my SSD.
I just can't quit X.
--------------------------


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James Cude
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:13:33 pm

Sad statement that being a 'pro' means you make up your mind off a 3 minute demo and a page of specs. Give me the actual machine to try using my own workflows and then I'll give you my verdict.


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larry towers
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:52:25 pm

It isn't Sad. A professional recognizes specs that are limiting.

i.e. 1-They brag about PCIe bandwidth of up to 40GBps!

But you can't get access to that bandwidth! This design limits expandability to thunderbolt 2 @ 20gbps (bits not Bytes!) that's less than 7% of available bandwidth available to peripherals!!!!

2-The numbers they compare to are the current ENTRY LEVEL SINGLE PROCESSOR MAC PRO

This is NOT a huge upgrade.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:41:07 pm

I'm highly interested. I need to see price to performance as well.

I am confident that Adobe will further develop on openCL, as they have started to do (and Dennis now seems to hint).

I like the size, and as far as spaghetti, my current MacPros look like spaghetti, so what's the big deal?

What is nice about Thunderbolt is that I will be able to position peripherals an easier to reach configuration, so I don't have to heave a 60 pound behemoth out of the way to install a new ethernet cable or switch a monitor cable/eSata/whatever drive. That's a win for me.

i can also remove just the peripheral I need to enhance/work on, rather than shutting down the whole machine, taking all of the cables out of it, heaving the whole thing out of the rack on to a workable desktop space, servicing the required part, reheaving back in to the rack, and plugging everything back in in an act of finger acrobatics. Also a win.

If you have PCIe slots, you usually have multiple cables sticking out of them. This isn't anything new.

What I am curious about:

The drawings on the website seem to indicate user replaceable RAM and perhaps even replaceable PCIe storage.

On my current MacPro, I have three bootable OSes. I bounce back between two of them daily. I will need this functionality for the future. I am curious if this will be possible with the new PCIe based storage (or lack of it) or can I boot from external TBolt drives accordingly.

At the very least, I just hope it works and works faster than an iMac.

I am also curious about Resolve performance unless Adobe can get some serious Speedgrade workflow love going soon.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:47:36 pm

Also, as someone who has put MacPros on airplanes, the overall size is very very nice. This is the most portable MacPro, ever.

DITs must be rejoicing all over the place.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:09:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "This is the most portable MacPro, ever."

FWIW the reduction in size is a major feature. It now makes the MacPro much for viable for bringing on some location work.



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Nicholas Zimmerman
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:50:20 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am also curious about Resolve performance unless Adobe can get some serious Speedgrade workflow love going soon."

I think Resolve is going to be one of my biggest reasons to get the new Mac Pro. At the moment I'm on a 3,1 8 core with a Radeon 5870 1GB, and I average between 10-20 fps, I've got no doubt that the new machine will absolutely blow that away.

The new machine really isn't what I was hoping for, but I'm sure it will be fast enough that I won't have any regrets. I am really glad I bought the Intensity Pro now, as I'm going to have to switch to TB I/O.

--------------------------
Avid MC, PPro CS6, FCP7 - wasting away on my SSD.
I just can't quit X.
--------------------------


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:00:10 pm

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "I think Resolve is going to be one of my biggest reasons to get the new Mac Pro. At the moment I'm on a 3,1 8 core with a Radeon 5870 1GB, and I average between 10-20 fps, I've got no doubt that the new machine will absolutely blow that away."

I'm sure it will be good too.

I am hoping, I can strap two of them together, turn them upside down, strap both of them to my back, run a series of batteries on a belt, and be able to take off from the cylindrical vortex created by the fans.

We will call it JetPacPro.


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Nicholas Zimmerman
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:02:45 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "We will call it JetPacPro."

Where do I put in my credit card number?

--------------------------
Avid MC, PPro CS6, FCP7 - wasting away on my SSD.
I just can't quit X.
--------------------------


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Robert Brown
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:06:22 pm

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "I think Resolve is going to be one of my biggest reasons to get the new Mac Pro. At the moment I'm on a 3,1 8 core with a Radeon 5870 1GB, and I average between 10-20 fps, I've got no doubt that the new machine will absolutely blow that away."

I get around 70fps of 1080 on my 12 core with a GTX 570. And if you want even more then people are using external PCI boxes. Once again Apple has stepped away from the "Pro" world. I know people who hack sawed off the handles on a Mac Pro to rack mount them. What are people in on location type situations gonna do with this?

If I stay with OSX which I still like, then a Hackintosh will probably be the way I go whenever I look to buy a new machine. With the old Mac Pros you had an amount of flexibility as to what you put in there, I still find that to be important and don't see the box type form factor as something that needed to be fixed.

Apple's stock started slipping during the keynote. Can't be good.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:59:07 pm

From BMD forum:

"Hi,

We have been testing with DaVinci Resolve 10 builds and this (the new Mac Pro) screams. Its amazing and those GPUs are incredible powerful. I am not sure what I can say as I am only going off what Apple has talked about publicly here in the keynote for what I can say right now, however there is a whole new OpenCL and DaVinci Resolve 10 has had a lot of performance work done to integrate it and its really really fast. Those GPUs are very powerful and have lots of GPU memory so this is the Mac we have been waiting for! We have lots of Thunderbolt products too so video in and out is taken care of.

We will have more details once the guys get back from WWDC and we get some more info from Apple on what we can talk about etc.

Overall we could not be happier!

Regards,

Grant Petty
Blackmagic Design"


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:03:12 pm

[Mathieu Ghekiere] "From BMD forum:

"Hi,

We have been testing with DaVinci Resolve 10 builds and this (the new Mac Pro) screams. Its amazing and those GPUs are incredible powerful. I am not sure what I can say as I am only going off what Apple has talked about publicly here in the keynote for what I can say right now, however there is a whole new OpenCL and DaVinci Resolve 10 has had a lot of performance work done to integrate it and its really really fast. Those GPUs are very powerful and have lots of GPU memory so this is the Mac we have been waiting for! We have lots of Thunderbolt products too so video in and out is taken care of.

We will have more details once the guys get back from WWDC and we get some more info from Apple on what we can talk about etc.

Overall we could not be happier!

Regards,

Grant Petty
Blackmagic Design""


Then my answer to the OP's question, at least for, me is winner!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:06:58 pm

Yes, thanks Mathieu.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 10:16:56 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I like the size, and as far as spaghetti, my current MacPros look like spaghetti, so what's the big deal?"

A difference in quantity not a difference in kind. Take your current Mac Pro spaghetti and now double it - either that bothers your or it doesn't. I will suggest that the reasons that computers developed as they have still exist - externalizing storage and all i/o peripherals will waste energy by requiring redundant cooling and power.

I can see the value in the new MacPro and depending on the price I might get one but I will say that as far as design goes it is in the exact opposite direction I would have preferred. I love the design of the ProMax One - internal raid, internal LTO, multiple internal boot drives that are swappable from the outside - for me that is an ideal design. If I were just starting out I would be all over that machine. Not saying it's a better design, just that it's better for me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bobby Mosca
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:42:08 pm

Comparing this to what has been offered for years in the old chassis, I don't see how this is a 'fail'. We don't know for sure about the GPUs. It doesn't LOOK like they are interchangeable, but they are accessible front and center under the hood, which might mean something. (Maybe a special version just for this casing? Can't tell.)

As far as everything else goes, no extra card slots and drive bays, and for that it stinks?

I liked some of FCP X, disliked a little more of it. That move is paying off with the giant deal in Creative Cloud. (I'm still trying to figure out the problem there. I'll have to go ask them.)

I sympathize with a lot of the complaints, but I like more of what I've heard than what I dislike, so I'm looking forward to the release and will most likely get it.

And you can move this thing! I seen a lot of beat up Mac Pros in my day and those guys will be THRILLED.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:13:00 pm

Yeah for me.

I think this is a very philosophical argument about how someone sees their machine.

Either you want internal expandability- Buy a machine and upgrade it into the ground over 5-6 years.

Or you want to buy a machine and use it for 2-3 years, then sell and replace with the upgraded version.

As the latter, I can tell you that I have no interest in being the former. And thru innumerable threads on this board I've never had someone convince me that I've paid substantially more to do what I do than someone who upgrades. Resale value on macs is very high, and my time spend servicing my machine is basically nil over the last 6 years.

With 2 internal GPUs, I no longer have any reason for the 16x slots. The rest can be handled via thunderbolt- a RedRocket card or Backmagic Video out. The new TB2 can probably handle 6xPCIe cards, so is there anything other than GPUs which I'm missing out on?

Choose how you want to do it, but don't say its not a Pro machine. Cause that would be silly.



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Chris Kenny
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:19:38 pm

I'm reasonably certain the GPU is not upgradable, which to be honest is the only thing that really bothers me about this system. Other than that, it looks like it packs a really amazing amount of power into a tiny (and, with that unified thermal system, probably bizarrely quiet) package. We were essentially forced onto Wintel for Resolve by last year's lack of a Mac Pro update, but if this thing delivers solid Resolve performance (the lack of CUDA is a bit of a concern there, but I've seen some good numbers for Resolves OpenCL support), we'll be moving that back to the Mac.

Some people here are looking at all the detrimental aspects of this sort of 'workstation appliance' approach, but I think there are some real positive aspects as well, beyond just form factor. One big one is that this will provide a very clear set of hardware for developers of pro apps to target and test with. In many respects, this will be like getting all of the consistency and reliable advantages of a turn-key system, without having to pay turn-key hardware prices. As someone who has lost a fair bit of sleep over the years to flaky hardware/software combos, that's hugely appealing.

Of course, I haven't seen the price yet.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:24:18 pm

I think the split is clearly forming that for some people Pro means not what you can with "with" the machine, but what you can do "to" the machine.

I'm happy to do nothing to my machine but create.



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Lance Bachelder
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:07:27 pm

Exactly, let me get to work , not fiddle with PCI slots - this is the most exciting Mac Pro yet! My only problem with my new iMac is the 2 Thunderbolt ports - now with 6 and at twice the speed you can add drives etc with no bottleneck.

I think it's gonna be pricey - guessing similar to current Mac Pro BTO - Xeon's alone are over a grand each and dual GPU's isn't going to be cheap. Only possible downer is they went with ATI instead of nVidia but developers like Adobe and BMD have been optimizing for OpenCL so it should be more than powerful enough - especially in full 4,000 core config...

Looking forward to more on this for sure. I have to say, overall, this was one of the best keynotes in years!

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:11:57 pm

And of course we're not sure there can't be substitutions. Perhaps the GPUs can be switched out at purchase for CUDA compatible ones.

There are lots of unanswered questions to be sure, but whether people get on board now, or 5 years from now- this is the way computing is going.



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Lance Bachelder
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:19:00 pm

I agree - large towers and PCI slots are gonna fade away and I'm happy to see them go. Heck I just threw an old Kona 3 card in the trash because it was worthless. I'll bet everything we now need/want a card for will be in a nice, tidy case with a Thunderbolt port - Red Rockets, Quadro's etc. Think of the heat and power savings - heck the power supply in my new PC is bigger than the new MacPro!

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:26:04 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Think of the heat and power savings - heck the power supply in my new PC is bigger than the new MacPro!"

I think this could actually cost heat and power -- now every peripheral will require its own cooling system and individual power supply.

By moving to all-external expansion, you lose the efficiency of a centralized power supply and a centralized cooling system.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 11:21:25 pm

It's been the opposite with my iMac - I don't even use the AC anymore. My old Mac Pro was a space heater, I was spending hundreds per month on AC! And my new Thunderbolt external storage is quieter and cooler than my old racked raid and internal storage.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 12:49:00 am

[Lance Bachelder] "It's been the opposite with my iMac - I don't even use the AC anymore. My old Mac Pro was a space heater, I was spending hundreds per month on AC! And my new Thunderbolt external storage is quieter and cooler than my old racked raid and internal storage."

Moore's Law helps. Newer CPUs do more with less power than older ones. I didn't have to heat my office in the winter back in the G5 days; I just had to render something.

My argument is essentially that the new Mac Pro doesn't conserve space, power, or heat -- it just shifts it outside the computer case with all-external expansion.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Brett Sherman
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 2:03:00 am

[Walter Soyka] "My argument is essentially that the new Mac Pro doesn't conserve space, power, or heat -- it just shifts it outside the computer case with all-external expansion."

I don't know what peripherals you guys are planning. But for me that assessment just isn't true. I'm moving my storage to SAN or NAS anyways. And heck even now, my eSata tower uses lots of power with my "upgradeable" Mac Pro Tower.

Thunderbolt will power my Intensity Extreme. Other conceivable peripherals will also be bus powered, 10GE(?). Is there a way to power my monitors with a Mac Pro tower? Nope. So those are powered regardless. Active Monitor speakers are by definition powered. Most high-end audio interfaces have already moved off PCIE cards. So where are all the power savings with a tower computer?

The new MacPro will work well for me.



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Lance Bachelder
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 3:39:30 am

True but this assumes we all need multiple external devices. I already use external AJA and BMD devices and of course storage is external. In an effort to de-clutter my workspace I also eliminated audio I/O and never used mixing board. I'll never use/want/need a Red Rocket so no need for PCI expansion box which would be the only add'l external device I can think of. But you're right, folks relying on Kona cards or add'l Quadro cards will have to switch though many Resolve users already use some sort of expansion chassis...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:27:55 pm

Whatever else one may say about Apple, their design and engineering is incredible.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Michael Hadley
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 8:48:07 pm

Look pretty expandable via T-Bolt:


The next generation Mac Pro is the most expandable MacĀ® ever built. With six Thunderbolt 2 ports that can deliver up to 20Gbps of bandwidth to each external device, Mac Pro is perfect for connecting to external storage, multiple PCI expansion chassis, audio and video breakout boxes, and the latest external displays, including 4K desktop displays. Each of the six Thunderbolt 2 ports supports up to six daisy-chained devices, giving you the ability to connect up to 36 high-performance peripherals. Thunderbolt 2 is completely backwards compatible with existing Thunderbolt peripherals, and allows you to transfer data between Macs faster and easier than ever.

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2013/06/10Apple-Gives-Sneak-Peek-Into-the-F...


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:25:43 pm

Has anyone seen Craig Seeman?

Ricardo


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Craig Seeman
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 9:57:07 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "Has anyone seen Craig Seeman?"

I think I saw him waiting on line at the Fifth Ave. NYC Apple Store to buy one. He wants to make sure he's first when it comes out three months from now. ;-)



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Ricardo Marty
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 11:33:01 pm

You where not far off in many aspects in others let me know

ricardo


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larry towers
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 10:10:46 pm

What is so incredible about starving peripherals of available bandwidth, forcing octopus expansion scenarios, increasing energy costs?



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 10:20:28 pm

[larry towers] "forcing octopus expansion scenarios, "

All expansion is an octopus scenario, unless you have PCIe cards that you don't use.


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larry towers
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 10:51:52 pm

Currently
drive expansion-- no
Graphics card expansion--No
ESata exaoansion no
Video card expansion i.e. aja etc--No
No

With this dumb configuration I will have to have additional cables To an expansion chassis and or cables to every device previously mentioned that would normally sit in the computer. At least doubling the number of cables for signal, not to mention powering all of these now outboard devices, not all of which will be powered by thunderbolt.



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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 10:54:00 pm

Larry, I'm sensing that you're not impressed?

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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larry towers
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 10, 2013 at 11:01:48 pm

This is seriously painful for me. We have a bunch of 2008 computers to replace. This will work for some. But it is not the computing powerhouse we needed it to be for the future. We can't afford to upgrade computers every other year. This computer is only impressive today. With no expandability that runs at processor bus speed it is designed to be disposable. SO seriously disappointed.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 1:18:53 am

[larry towers] "This is seriously painful for me. We have a bunch of 2008 computers to replace. This will work for some. But it is not the computing powerhouse we needed it to be for the future. We can't afford to upgrade computers every other year. This computer is only impressive today. With no expandability that runs at processor bus speed it is designed to be disposable. SO seriously disappointed."

I'm just curious, but what WOULD have been good enough?

Announcing a MacPro with processors that won't be ready until 2016 becuase they are so new they are vaporware?

How much newer do you need it to be?

And how do you know, for a fact, that this machine won't work?

I'm not saying its perfect for everyone, clearly it's not, but I'm wondering how you know Thunderbolt 2 won't be good enough?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 1:35:32 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm just curious, but what WOULD have been good enough?"

I know you weren't asking me, but I can't miss an opportunity like this. I would have liked to have seen (at least) dual CPU sockets, more RAM slots, and NVIDIA instead of AMD.

Also I like it when my computer helps to heat my office.


[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm not saying its perfect for everyone, clearly it's not, but I'm wondering how you know Thunderbolt 2 won't be good enough?"

I am with you here. As you know, I'm one of the original Thunderbolt haters, but I think Son of Thunderbolt will cross the "fast enough" threshold for most. It's twice as fast, so I hate it half as much.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Al Bergstein
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 1:56:04 am

So IMHO the design is very cool, and again, sort of locks you into Apple expansion, I would bet.
I am unclear about whether the TB will provide the video bandwidth for many multiple monitors while simultaneously driving very fast external drives. I just don't know yet.
More than enough RAM for my needs.
More than enough bandwidth .
If Adobe says they will support the ATI graphics set, great. We'll see.

Biggest issue is that this is likely to be, given current Mac Pro prices, even more expensive. I have to say that I will continue to use my lower cost and very capable (maybe not as capable but plenty capable) W7 devices until this thing is shipped and wrung out in production.

I'm not going to FCPX if I can help it. Apple proved with FCP 7 that they have no idea how to market professional software to professionals. Adobes' latest cloud efforts don't change my mind on that in the least.

Would I love to own such a cool looking device, sure, but it's still got to compete in the marketplace.

so, I guess, we'll see.

Al


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 3:22:02 am

[Walter Soyka] "I know you weren't asking me, but I can't miss an opportunity like this. I would have liked to have seen (at least) dual CPU sockets, more RAM slots, and NVIDIA instead of AMD."

So far, Adobe has chimed in saying that Pr will "max out" the tube.

Blackmagic has said Resolve is working well, even "screams".

I'm sure fcpx will perform well "Can't innovate anymore? My ass.".

Motion will have real time 2.5D holographic projections, "I made that last one up".

There are 4 GPU intense applications right there. Plus, how many of us are in the market for a $15k 48 core, quad gpu machine, let alone multiple $15k machines? If you are in the market, are you hiring? :)


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 6:10:32 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "There are 4 GPU intense applications right there. Plus, how many of us are in the market for a $15k 48 core, quad gpu machine, let alone multiple $15k machines? If you are in the market, are you hiring? :)"

After Effects, Adobe Media Encoder, CINEMA 4D, and NUKE. There are 4 CPU-intense applications that would benefit from dual CPU.

I agree that not many would buy the epic sizzle core you describe, but whatever serious 3D artists were left on the Mac platform were rocking dual-socket Mac Pros.

$15k is pricey but not totally unreasonable in areas like mine were CPU power is a creative and competitive advantage.

I'm not hiring staff, but I am looking for good mograph/3D freelancers.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 6:25:36 pm

[Walter Soyka] "After Effects, Adobe Media Encoder, CINEMA 4D, and NUKE. There are 4 CPU-intense applications that would benefit from dual CPU.

I agree that not many would buy the epic sizzle core you describe, but whatever serious 3D artists were left on the Mac platform were rocking dual-socket Mac Pros.

$15k is pricey but not totally unreasonable in areas like mine were CPU power is a creative and competitive advantage."


Surely. I know where you are coming from, but it's not in Apple's wheel house.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 6:48:18 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Surely. I know where you are coming from, but it's not in Apple's wheel house."

Certainly not anymore.

With the lack of a dual-socket CPU workstation, the performance gap between Macs and PCs for some apps will be wider than it's been in a decade.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 6:51:31 pm

[Walter Soyka] "With the lack of a dual-socket CPU workstation, the performance gap between Macs and PCs for some apps will be wider than it's been in a decade."

Apple have clearly decided exactly how far into the "Pro" market they want to reach.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 7:21:45 pm

[Steve Connor] "Apple have clearly decided exactly how far into the "Pro" market they want to reach."

Yes, that's the thing that makes me sad about the announcement.

Please don't get me wrong, this will be a really nice machine for a lot of people. I just hate to see Apple bring out a beautiful machine that can never compete in some areas, by design, placing a self-imposed limitation on what Macs will be used for.

I also hate to see people buying into the marketing notion that this is the best possible "pro computer."

Maybe it won't matter. Maybe people will be willing to sacrifice a CPU socket for Mac OS or a lovely object on their desk, or maybe enough developers will move enough processing over to OpenCL that the lack of raw CPU power won't be an issue.

I just can't help but feel today that Apple's new Mac Pro design defines both what it is and what it isn't.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 7:45:30 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I just can't help but feel today that Apple's new Mac Pro design defines both what it is and what it isn't."

As an interesting thought, I wonder how the Tube will differentiate itself against future iMacs. For now of course you have the 12 core Xeon, double GPU, Tblt 2 and high speed SSD boot, and an unknown amount of memory. I would imagine that the next iMac update will feature Tblt 2 (though not as many), an SSD boot disk of similar speed, still a single GPU and quad core i7 processor maxing out at 32 gigs of ram. It will be interesting to see what the price differential will be and if there is enough performance difference to make the Tube a succes.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 9:17:03 pm

[Herb Sevush] "As an interesting thought, I wonder how the Tube will differentiate itself against future iMacs. For now of course you have the 12 core Xeon, double GPU, Tblt 2 and high speed SSD boot, and an unknown amount of memory. I would imagine that the next iMac update will feature Tblt 2 (though not as many), an SSD boot disk of similar speed, still a single GPU and quad core i7 processor maxing out at 32 gigs of ram."

I imagine the lines we see today will continue. More CPU/GPU/RAM/ports for the Tube, lower price point for the iMac.


[Herb Sevush] "It will be interesting to see what the price differential will be and if there is enough performance difference to make the Tube a succes."

Apple has to re-sell the Mac Pro to professionals. In the last couple years, pros have discovered that an iMac suits 90% (or more) of their needs at 50% (or less) of the price than a workstation.

The 12-core Tube with dual 6GB GPUs, 1 TB of flash storage, and 64 GB of ECC RAM that would blow an iMac out of the water will not come cheap. Lower-priced and lower-powered configuration options will not look as awesome next to the iMac and may not be worth a presumed price premium.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 9:41:45 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The 12-core Tube with dual 6GB GPUs, 1 TB of flash storage, and 64 GB of ECC RAM that would blow an iMac out of the water will not come cheap. Lower-priced and lower-powered configuration options will not look as awesome next to the iMac and may not be worth a presumed price premium."

The big question - will an entry level Tube -say 6 cores, with a 500 Gig flash drive and a pair of less powerful GPUs be worth a possible 2K premium ove the iMac - especially as the iMac itself is upgraded?

As you and others have pointed out for most editors the iMac is enough - it's for compositing and FX work that a workstation becomes imperative - and it is this niche-within-a-niche market that is being split by the Tube's limitations.

The pricing of the Tube is going to be extremely interesting.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 9:58:44 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The pricing of the Tube is going to be extremely interesting."

In your opinion, where does it need to be?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 10:13:22 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "In your opinion, where does it need to be?"

For the maxed out version about 6-7K.
The specs of the entry level Tube will be interesting - as long as it's a double GPU, at least 6 cores and 32 Gigs of ram it would be a good deal at 4K, which isn't much more than a maxed out iMac.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 12, 2013 at 1:08:41 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The pricing of the Tube is going to be extremely interesting."

[Jeremy Garchow] "In your opinion, where does it need to be?"

This is a tricky proposition. Low-end workstation-class gear costs more than high-end desktop-class gear, yet it doesn't perform as well -- which is why the Mac vs. PC conversations here end up devolving into a "build your own PC with a 6-core i7 and a GTX whatever and it'll rock."

I'll be curious to see if Apple puts the brakes on iMac performance (maybe continuing to avoid the top of the i7 line) to help differentiate the single-socket Mac Pro tube.

I think their big problem is that over the last couple years, Apple has trained some of their most loyal customers -- people who used to buy $5000-6000 Mac Pros without question -- to buy a $2000-3000 iMac instead. Will these customers be willing to pay for that kind of performance again, or have they permanently shrunk the pool of Mac Pro buyers?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 12, 2013 at 1:22:42 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I think their big problem is that over the last couple years, Apple has trained some of their most loyal customers -- people who used to buy $5000-6000 Mac Pros without question -- to buy a $2000-3000 iMac instead. Will these customers be willing to pay for that kind of performance again, or have they permanently shrunk the pool of Mac Pro buyers?"

Doesn't matter, bought Mac. :)

Clearly, Apple sees a potential market for this.

They sneak peeked it, something they don't do, Phil Schiller had a fairly vulnerable middle finger moment, it's full of unreleased technology, and whether you like it or not, it's in an impressively dense package.

I'm pretty sure Apple has an idea of who is going to buy these, and they will write software to take advantage of it.

They've done it before, they'll do it again.

And if they have lost a few MacPro customers along the way, they gained a few iMac customers along the way, or rMBP customers.

They don't care as long as you're buying Mac.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 12, 2013 at 1:38:20 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Clearly, Apple sees a potential market for this... And if they have lost a few MacPro customers along the way, they gained a few iMac customers along the way, or rMBP customers. They don't care as long as you're buying Mac."

Agreed. I think that I phrased it exceptionally poorly with the words "big problem," because it's not a big problem at all.


[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm pretty sure Apple has an idea of who is going to buy these, and they will write software to take advantage of it."

Let me try another way -- who do you think will buy this? What market needs more than an iMac but less than a sizzle-core HP Z-series, and would be willing to pay double the price of an iMac to get it?

Since the Internet obfuscates meaning, when I say "who do you think will buy this," I am not trying to argue that no one will buy this. I'm actually just asking who you think will buy this.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 12, 2013 at 1:58:27 pm

[Walter Soyka] "who do you think will buy this?"

If Apple does what I think they'll do, motivated FCPX users. I suspect they'll be feature improvements only accessed or best utilized on it. Obviously speculative but:
Background rendering will be truly background, not pauseround. Obviously only those who need that will get MP.
Multiple simultaneous for both Viewers. You want that you'll have to get a MP.
Resolve power users.
Regardless of the above specifics, I think Apple's Apps will have dual GPU specific features that go beyond "speed." I think there's a reason why they're tagging an FCPX upgrade to the release to the MacPro.
Faster by itself wouldn't be enough if the iMac really is fast enough. I think it'll be tied to features.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 12, 2013 at 3:25:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Let me try another way -- who do you think will buy this? What market needs more than an iMac but less than a sizzle-core HP Z-series, and would be willing to pay double the price of an iMac to get it?

Since the Internet obfuscates meaning, when I say "who do you think will buy this," I am not trying to argue that no one will buy this. I'm actually just asking who you think will buy this."


Due to the form factor, that there'll be some upgrading happening. People that were content with iMacs but have a growing business might look at these and, due to the sheer size, function, and I'm sure what will be a decent amount of power, will upgrade to the first MacPro they've ever owned, across all Mac using business types.

There are many Mac diehards that will buy it sight unseen.

Developers, scientists, professionals that are outside of the video world will snatch these up.

Basically, anyone who hasn't left Apple, still likes Apple, and needs a faster machine than an iMac.

My biggest gripe with the iMac was the form factor. The performance was OK, and certainly a stop gap until something else came out, but now if this new MacPro proves to not be a total dud, this is a perfectly suitable form factor, and I'm sure it will be the fastest Mac I've ever owned.

People complained about what the iPhone 5 was not, but it is, by far, the best phone I've ever owned.

Is it the best, most fastest, biggest screen phone on the market? Does it have every single bell and whistle that technology can offer? Nope, but it does work well, functions well, and is the fastest phone that I, personally, have ever owned.

I am sure the new MacPro will follow those general sentiments.


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Paul Dickin
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 12, 2013 at 3:50:49 pm

[Walter Soyka] " who you think will buy this"
Hi
Anyone who finds two TB and one Gig-E ports causes them juggling problems with their connectivity needs.
In the SCSI era workstations were always smallish boxes with external storage as fast as internal.
Now we're in a 4K video age anything smaller than a Promax box is always going to need external storage as fast as internal.

The era of Apple deviating from a simple box with good external connectivity has been confined to the era of the current G5/Mac Pro form factor - until 2005/6 there were only 2+1 internal drive bays.

Anyone who says their 'workflow' demands a single large box can only have worked in the last few years.
On lots of different levels (energy consumption etc) is that sustainable?
Or are our grand-children going to be saying: "Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into!"

On a different tack: if the current high end graphics cards (like AMD 7990) are two lesser graphics engines combined into one package (presumably driven by one 16x PCIe slot) why can't the engines be separated and each connected by one 8x TB channel each? Wouldn't that give the same throughput? Obviously with rewriitten GPGPU drivers.



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 12, 2013 at 2:32:25 pm

You got that right for sure!

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 12, 2013 at 10:22:06 am

[Walter Soyka] "Maybe people will be willing to sacrifice a CPU socket for Mac OS or a lovely object on their desk"

If only it were made of lucite. The tube is the new cube. And it has the roundest corners ever conceived, at last in anything not designed to perk coffee or filter air.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 6:53:00 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Certainly not anymore.

With the lack of a dual-socket CPU workstation, the performance gap between Macs and PCs for some apps will be wider than it's been in a decade."


So, can we now, finally agree, that Apple isn't in the speed game?

Maybe? :)


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 6:56:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So, can we now, finally agree, that Apple isn't in the speed game? Maybe? :)"

Yes, I concede!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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larry towers
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 5:08:04 pm

Incontrovertible facts:

1-Thunderbolt 2 is only twice as fast as thunderbolt 1. Thunderbolt 1 is the equivalent of a single PCIe x4 slot, Thunderbolt 2 is twice as fast but does so combining the channels together, Thunderbolt 2 enables two 20Gbps bi-direction channels instead of two sets of 10Gbps channels. There's NO OVERALL INCREASE IN BANDWIDTH. It is still bound to a PCIe 2.0 interface.
Big Whoop! Not nearly as fast as a SINGLE PCIe 3.0 x 16 slot.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7049/intel-thunderbolt-2-everything-you-need-...

2-Intel doesn't make a six port Thunderbolt controller. (Look it up)
http://ark.intel.com/products/series/67021
So there will likely be 3 dual port(4 channel) controllers to feed the Thunderbolt ports. This probably means bus arbitration issues when all ports are being used. (With NO on board connectivity this is a likely scenario) People dreaming of adding an expansion Chassis with Graphics cards are SOL.

As for the other items?

A real macpro would have used a standard form factor for graphics cards with a standard PCIe 3.0 x 16 slots for easy upgrades later.
8 memory slots.
A physical form factor that doesn't demand to be placed ON a desktop where all the tangled mess of Thunderbolt cables will get in the way.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 5:15:49 pm

What do you perceive that you can't get done with dual GPUs and Thunderbolt 2 connectivity?

"Thunderbolt 2 enables two 20Gbps bi-direction channels instead of two sets of 10Gbps channels. There's no overall increase in bandwidth, but the solution is now more capable. Since there's 20Gbps of bandwidth per channel, you can now do 4K video over Thunderbolt. You can also expect to see higher max transfer rates for storage. Whereas most Thunderbolt storage devices top out at 800 - 900MB/s, Thunderbolt 2 should raise that to around 1500MB/s (overhead and PCIe limits will stop you from getting anywhere near the max spec)."


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larry towers
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 5:27:03 pm

They keep spouting 4k as if it me4ans something! That is just for 4k presentation. Try rendering multiple 4k streams involving a 3d transform...



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 5:27:52 pm

[larry towers] "Try rendering multiple 4k streams involving a 3d transform..."

Finally some substance.

And out of what program are you rendering this material?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 6:40:27 pm

[larry towers] "Incontrovertible facts:
1-Thunderbolt 2 is only twice as fast as thunderbolt 1"


Yes, but even the original Thunderbolt stunned me with what you could use it for in the real world:






You can still do a lot of off-CPU processing with a lowly 4x connection, and the inclusion of dual GPUs means you can do a lot of off-CPU processing without having to hit TB at all.

Original Thunderbolt was too slow for big, fast disk arrays that relied on 8x controllers; I think Son of Thunderbolt should probably handle them.

At some point, some iteration of Thunderbolt will be "fast enough" to meet the expansion needs of nearly all the people here. That point may come with TB2.


[larry towers] "2-Intel doesn't make a six port Thunderbolt controller. (Look it up)"

Nor do they make TB2 controllers, nor do they make 12-core Xeon CPUs.

Yet.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro - Thoughts? Winner or Loser?
on Jun 11, 2013 at 6:42:26 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Nor do they make TB2 controllers, nor do they make 12-core Xeon CPUs. "

Nor TBolt capable Xeons.

It has been all i7 up until this announcement.


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