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So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...

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Nicholas Zimmerman
So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 8:15:18 am

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/1175590

I don't mind if they leave "FCPX or Not" open, but isn't it time that FCP was discussed on the FCP board? It feels like FCPX is still treated like it's second tier. This is even after Adobe's CC debacle, after Avid's financial issues, and after 8 substantial updates that proved the program was headed in the right direction.

I honestly can't see any reason to stick with Legacy other than an aversion to change. If you want to edit in FCP7 with a modern UI and 64-bit speed then get Premiere Pro, if you want to have a major speed boost in both tech and editing systems then move to FCPX. If you work in a massive multi-user environment with a lot of others, make the move to Media Composer.

It just doesn't make any sense to me economically that anyone would stay in FCP7 this long. The renders are too obscene, the technical issues just grow and grow, it's formats are outdated. People stay in it because they know it, and don't want to put the effort into learning anything else, or work for companies that don't want to put the investment into anything else. At this point any living NLE would be a massive improvement over FCP7. Your editors can do much more with a modern system that doesn't require ridiculous render times on things as minor as three way color correctors. This isn't just about FCPX, either. I believe my copy of FCS3 was $1,800 -- right now I'm looking at an Avid ad that says "Media Composer 7, Own It. $999"

--------------------------
Avid MC, PPro CS6, FCP7 - wasting away on my SSD.
I just can't quit X.
--------------------------


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Mark Dobson
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 10:04:39 am

To my mind the forums seem pretty well titled as they are.

A huge number of editors are still using FCP7 (not me!) and FCPX has 2 active forums, this one which seems to look at how FCPX fits in within the NLE world and encompasses more esoteric and philosophic debates, and FCPX Techniques which does what it says on the label.

I'd admit that this forum has lost some bite since Adobe ring-fenced its software but it's still a good place to hang out whilst you are waiting for things to render.


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 11:34:17 am

In most cases it really is an aversion to change, and there's still a lot of misleading info out there. I've even talked to producers who believed that Apple had officially decided to leave the Pro Market and FCP X was going to be the last version.

With editors the problem a lot of the times is the fear of loosing work by not being able to adapt quick enough, especially young editors who just finished learning Legacy. Or if your company just invested in some expensive equipment.

I still hear the argument that X is too much like imovie and it doesn't let you do things manually, and that magnetic timeline...Nik, you can't use it for features films, you can't even export tracks...excuse me? I've delivered multitrack files to TV directly exported from X, it took me less time to get the timeline organised and exported than it would have in Legacy. And the fact of the matter is once you start understanding the way X deals with audio, you spent less time worrying about out of sync than in Legacy.

I many cases though people don't need to change. As editors we are (most of the time) evaluated based on our editing skills, which have nothing to do with the software. If you have enough clients, who usually don't have a clue what's going on in the editing software world anyway, why would you need to change. However I do believe that soon the places still working with Legacy will have to make a decision for one of the As, FCPX is so much faster than Legacy. The other day, on FCP7, a client wanted a Vignette, FXFactory, on a 6 minute piece, I also built a simple lower-third Title, color generator black, cropped, 50% opacity + white Text with drop shadow. The system we used is very fast, but there was some editing and color correcting going on in the other suites... It took about 60 minutes to export (unrendered). Now, I get payed for that time so I don't care, but in X that would have taken no more than 10 minutes on my Laptop.

Where I do see FCPX gaining traction is in small companies, and those not specialised in Editing but needing it for their Video content. One of the places I've been working for this year, Promiflash in Berlin, one of Germany's most popular Star/Gossip providers, decided to start doing internet TV. FCPX works perfectly for this environment. I trained one of our editors who only had Avid experience... she was able to use it within a day, not perfectly but it worked out fine. The producers ingest footage and make their selections before the video-editors arrive. I rarely get troubleshooting calls.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Scot Walker
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 3:45:18 pm

Final Cut Pro X is definitely not iMovie. iMovie can scroll the timeline during playback! :)

I cut a feature film on FCP X last year on a Mac Pro with 24 gigs of RAM, Radeon 5770 1 gig, using a $1,000 PCI card raid SSD as my hard drive for the event and project. This system, which is lightning fast with Premiere Pro CS6 (even though the Mercury is software), is very non-responsive with FCP X and sluggish. I get the spinning wheel way too often.

I need a 3rd party utility to manage my events and project folders so FCP X doesn't take a year to launch because it's dealing with so many events and projects.

I need a 3rd party utility to delete the preferences because they get corrupted so often and FCP X will refuse to launch.

My guess is a very large percentage of FCP X users own those two utilities.

I'm getting a 3rd party plug-in that lets me do something radical - place custom guides on my viewer to allow me to align objects. Wow!

The iMovie comparison probably stems mostly from the fact that the user interface can't be customized like a pro app should be. I really don't understand Apple in this regard. Their other pro apps were wonderful in this regard. To this day, Motion allows me to drag individual palettes all around. With FCP X, I can look at the Audio tab or the Video tab, not both. I can look at Transitions or Effects, not both....etc.

The import dialog is basic and less powerful than the file dialog of TextEdit (no Spotlight, only one view option, my system-wide favorites on the left side pane are gone).

I really have no idea why a small XML-based project file that points to my media on my hard drive in my folder where I want it is inferior to FCP X having this whole Events/Projects methodology. What was Apple trying to accomplish by being so radical with my media and project files? I want to do a simple thing like make a duplicate of a project file just in case the original gets hosed. For decades, that was a very simple thing and quick. Just do a Save As and name it differently, or go to the Finder and duplicate the file. It's just a very small XML file. In FCP X, I have to go to the Project LIbrary and wait while it gives me a spinning wheel and renders out thumbnails and this takes a lot of time if you have a normal number of projects (reason why I use a 3rd party utility to manage them). You then duplicate it and make sure you tell FCP X to duplicate just the project file and not the rendered files (that are huge ProRes files) and not the references files (which are huge). You think this wouldn't take long to simply copy a project file without the media, but it takes a while, and then when it's done it has to render the thumbnails of that project file in the Project Library.

Want to delete the media in an Event that isn't being used? Simple, right? Just tell FCP X to select the unused media and then press the DELETE key, right? Nope. That basic feature isn't there. The workaround is to duplicate the entire project and hundreds of gigs of referenced and rendered media and then delete the one you duplicated.

I can't lay down 4 clips and tell FCP X to trim all 4 at the same time. I have to go to each one and trim them with snap turned on so they trim to the same point.

For me, personally, this application isn't fully baked and I don't recommend it to my Premiere Pro-using friends. I love, love, love Motion and I've been using it since version 1. I think Apple just lost its way with pro software after making billions on phones. Just my opinion. I'm rooting for it, though.



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Andy Neil
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 4:36:39 pm

[Scot Walker] "Want to delete the media in an Event that isn't being used? Simple, right? Just tell FCP X to select the unused media and then press the DELETE key, right? Nope. That basic feature isn't there. The workaround is to duplicate the entire project and hundreds of gigs of referenced and rendered media and then delete the one you duplicated."

No. If you want to delete the unused media in an event, select the media and CMD+Delete it. If you're not sure which media is used, then you have to do the exact same thing you had to do in FCP7 which is create a consolidated project and then delete the original. The only difference between the way FCPX does things and FCP7, is that FCPX won't trim media to only what's used in the sequence, a mixed blessing to be sure.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Bret Williams
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 10:20:19 pm

Well, no, in FCP7 it was easy to delete the unused material. Highlight the sequence, press cmd+f and find unused media. Then, deleted the unused media. Or you cold mark the used media with a label. Nice stuff. I'd like to see a find unused function in X for sure. And a trim/handles function when duplicating a project. That's all I feel is missing from the media management.


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Terence Morris
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 19, 2013 at 1:01:31 am

This not being able to identify unused clips is a nightmare if you do a lot of voiceover. I have projects where I have numerous takes of audio and maybe used just a few, some of which I turned into compound clips. Gets very complicated! There are also stills and clips that I have used in more than one project. I'm too scared to try the project duplication scenario, just in case in the aftermath I discover I have inadvertently deleted an event that was used in another project. This really needs a fix of some sort.


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Terence Morris
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 19, 2013 at 2:12:37 am

I should explain: When I do voiceover and it's a bad take, what I would like to do is simply delete the clip instantly - in it's entirety - and carry on. To do this it seems I have to highlight the audio clip on the timeline, reveal the event in browser, delete the timeline clip, then move the event to trash. If I did all this I would loose my flow. So I just cmd-Z, do retakes and the unused events pile up. If anyone knows a simpler way around this...


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Terence Morris
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 22, 2013 at 6:16:39 pm

This is becoming a monologue! I thought I'd share this anyway. I decided to try Cubase to record and edit the VO and then import to FCPX. This has proved to be a lot more efficient, both time-wise and for workflow. I won't be going back to the old way in a hurry, except for the occasional brief commentary.


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Brandon Cordy
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 5:37:16 pm

Many of these are things that can be addressed via feature requests - Apple has been pretty good so far about making substantial improvements to the software.

The Event Manager X issue, I'm not sure - they may leave that as-is as an opportunity for the third-party developers.


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Bret Williams
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 10:24:56 pm

The list of basics PPro is missing is much longer. Ah, but they're adding them if you care to rent them in he next version.

Seriously, the only point we have in common is the one about trimming multiple clips at once. But since you can slice through them all at once, it's a decent alternative. A g tool would be welcome though. With a keystroke you could compound them, trim, then un compound,

Event manager is nice. But not necessary. You don't have to be a genius to manage them by hand. Had to do quite a bit of that with legacy. All the media was hand managed. Where to put the scratch, where to put project files, etc. it's called working on a computer. You're going to have to move files around. I don't see why you need an app to delete a couple preference files. Although I rarely have had to do that.

Duplicating a project is now called duplicate. Go figure. You should have never been using save as. Makes a mess of things in legacy. Projects being separate in X is wonderful keeps the render files tied to the timeline. No chance of deleting render files from one project and having it affect another.

As for all your performance issues, I just don't see them. Restarting X even with a hundred projects online takes seconds. Duplicating a project without renders is nearly instantaneous. I think you might want to try it on an iMac. The last Mac Pro was in 2010’ and even it didn't have the tech to accelerate X as it was designed.


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Andy Field
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 12:40:58 pm

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "I honestly can't see any reason to stick with Legacy other than an aversion to change."

Actually there are quite a few reasons. I'm consulting with a large federal agency that has over 500 seats of FCP 7 and 6. It integrates with their Dalet server and they broadcast programs around the world. Some are still on FCP 6...some are still cutting SD DV material......

it will cost them 10's millions of dollars to switch over to another system - and they are evaluating FCP X (which their engineers view as a closed island and too much trouble to network with what they need)....also the downtime to train thousands of editors/reporters/shooters on a system that is unlike anything they've worked with.

They can't even upgrade some systems to FCP 7 because Apple won't sell them the seats.

So they are evaluating Premiere Pro - who's engineers are gladly twisting themselves into pretzels to accommodate this potential multi-illion dollar contract.

so it's not just about "we don't want to change" but in many cases it's the time and cost of retraining many people.

As for FCP X - even a simple thing as "bluring" in a title doesn't work correctly - I tried showing someone how to do it (in FCP 7 - you apply the blur transition to a title above a main track of video - voila - no fuss - it blurs In FCP X the blur also blurs the underlying video? Have tried nesting, making connected clips, secondary story lines...doesn't work.

Try explaining the nuances of the FCP X workarounds for split track outputs..multi-language splits and translations in FCP X to thousands of workers just trying to do their job...and you quickly see it's not all about people afraid of change.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Bob Woodhead
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 1:47:57 pm

[Andy Field] "As for FCP X - even a simple thing as "bluring" in a title doesn't work correctly - I tried showing someone how to do it (in FCP 7 - you apply the blur transition to a title above a main track of video - voila - no fuss - it blurs In FCP X the blur also blurs the underlying video? Have tried nesting, making connected clips, secondary story lines...doesn't work. "

Not impossible. More convoluted than it should be, I agree.

Andy Neil gets the props for answering this one first (Cliff notes: open trans in Motion & disable "to" or "from" clip):

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/344/13420#13422


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Andy Field
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 4:18:36 pm

Bob - thanks for solving that problem....good work around...but it's the structure of effects in FCP X that requires that work around in the first place....there's no way even an intermediate skilled FCP X editor would have figured that out....Apple has taken things that worked in one step and required a half dozen in some cases.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Brandon Cordy
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 5:49:12 pm

While the Blur transitions certainly could have been set up better, I think it's at least a good thing that they're all now editable in Motion. That was what sold me on FCPX.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 4:35:30 pm

[Andy Field] "I'm consulting with a large federal agency that has over 500 seats of FCP 7 and 6. It integrates with their Dalet server and they broadcast programs around the world. Some are still on FCP 6...some are still cutting SD DV material......"

I think I know said agency and even if I didn't - the bigger issue for large enterprises (be it gov, edu or broadcast) is that editing is a part of a larger toolset. Because of this, I would say that the integration between other systems (Dalet in this case) and Adobe are the central issue. To this point, Adobe has really been embraced as the successor to Avid and Apple in terms of integration with over 120 vendors showing Adobe at NAB with over 40 with working panels directly inside of Premiere Pro. This level of integration is unique among NLEs and provides a tightness of integration that cannot be found elsewhere to my knowledge.

Its because of this integration capabilities that I think Adobe serves large enterprises including gov agencies well...

Cmd+Tab to switch to another app for the creative process is just so 2007... ;-)

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Brandon Cordy
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 5:41:02 pm

You can blur the text now using the text parameters itself. Those could be animated to create a position, but it is possible that someone with great Motion authoring skills (since every FCPX transition is a Motion project) could look at the current blur transition and make one that both works to only blur the top layer and still respects the alpha channel of each layer. I tried playing with it and haven't cracked it yet.


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Nicholas Zimmerman
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 5:50:25 pm

[Andy Field] "Actually there are quite a few reasons. I'm consulting with a large federal agency that has over 500 seats of FCP 7 and 6. It integrates with their Dalet server and they broadcast programs around the world. Some are still on FCP 6...some are still cutting SD DV material......"

I can understand this, it's such a large workforce that any change is going to be painful. The rant was inspired by the hundreds of people I've encountered that have to freedom to switch to another NLE, but stick with 7 because they know it well and aren't will to learn a new system. It's like an editing purgatory, where every passing day they stay with 7 is another day they could have gotten better at Media Composer, Premiere, or X. Not everyone using 7 is averse to change, but I think it's a very strong majority, especially with independent editors and small companies that have the flexibility to change.

--------------------------
Avid MC, PPro CS6, FCP7 - wasting away on my SSD.
I just can't quit X.
--------------------------


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Dennis Radeke
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 1:11:47 pm

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "I honestly can't see any reason to stick with Legacy other than an aversion to change. If you want to edit in FCP7 with a modern UI and 64-bit speed then get Premiere Pro, if you want to have a major speed boost in both tech and editing systems then move to FCPX. If you work in a massive multi-user environment with a lot of others, make the move to Media Composer. "

You are making some assumptions on Premiere Pro that may not be true. You assume that it is merely a 64-bit 'knock-off' of FCP7 which it is most definitely not. You assume that you cannot be as fast as FCPX, which is merely an argument that your hammer is better than mine. In the end, it's the person who wields the hammer that makes the difference and that decision is up to each person to decide for themselves. You also assume that only Media Composer allows a multi-user environment when in fact there are lots of products out there that enable multi-user for multiple NLEs. EditShare, Film Partners and others exist today for Adobe, Avid and Apple. Adobe also has Anywhere coming in just a short while as well: Adobe Anywhere

That said, I will always reiterate that choice is good for everybody as is the competition between multiple vendors for your attention!

Cheers,
Dennis - Adobe guy


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Bob Woodhead
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 1:52:59 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "choice is good for everybody as is the competition between multiple vendors for your attention!"

Bingo. Well said, Dennis. Keep making PPro better and you might switch me off FCPX for the daily breadmaking... ;)

"Constituo, ergo sum"

Bob Woodhead / Atlanta
CMX-Quantel-Avid-FCP-Premiere-3D-AFX-Crayola
"What a long strange trip it's been...."


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Dan Stewart
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 1:58:54 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "You assume that it is merely a 64-bit 'knock-off' of FCP7 which it is most definitely not."

This is true. It's developed into a very serious competitior. The only serious issue with PP now is that you have to let Shantanu Narayen screw your sister.



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Bret Williams
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 10:44:32 pm

Now that they've incorporated the best features of MC, Legacy, and even a few from X like hover scrub, what will they add in future updates? Will they have to wait for other apps to come up with something new? :)


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Nicholas Zimmerman
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 5:37:43 pm

I didn't mean to dog on Adobe, it's just that most of the people I see switching from FCP7 to Premiere do it because of how similar it is to 7. My biggest point of the rant is that unless you have a very specific reason to stay FCP7, you are better off by going with any of the 3 modern systems.

--------------------------
Avid MC, PPro CS6, FCP7 - wasting away on my SSD.
I just can't quit X.
--------------------------


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Shane Ross
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 9:52:17 pm

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "My biggest point of the rant is that unless you have a very specific reason to stay FCP7, you are better off by going with any of the 3 modern systems."

Many people do have great reasons:

1) It still works. It does what they need, they know how to use it, they have very tried and true workflows that still work great, do exactly what they need to do.

There is no reason to change, just because something new and shiny came out. You change when you need to change...when something in the production/post pipeline requires it, THEN you change. Changing for the sake of change...that's no reason. "But this is better and faster and slicker!" For you...not for everyone. FCP 7 is still the best option for many people. I have several clients who still use it, several large companies do as well. NOW one of them is thinking of changing, as they just got asked to do a 4K show. Now they have a reason to change.

2) Cost. As mentioned, there are many large facilities that have built their post around FCP 7. HUGE number of seats and servers. To change will cost a lot of money. In new licenses, possible new hardware/OS, training/down time. So when they look at the options, typically they stick with what they have because...well...look up at number 1.

3) Comfort factor/muscle memory. Editors, like martial artists, rely on muscle memory. We are fast because we know what commands are where, what tricks do what...and all sorts of things that enable us to use the NLE very quickly. Switching means relearning everything. Thus why many are considering PPro Next.


You use and love FCX. Great! We all aren't like you and moved onto the next shiny new thing. Just like we shouldn't judge you for using FCX, and think it a toy (I don't, some do), you also shouldn't judge others for staying behind. People use what works for them. Get over it.

FCX is a new forum for a new editing app. Many have said that before...it isn't an update, it's new. Thus, a new forum.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bret Williams
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 10:51:38 pm

It is however still called Final Cut Pro and is the latest version of The software. When looking for the right forum for newbies to post, it's understandable they would choose the FCP forum. The other two choices are debate or techniques. They sound specific. So since the FCP forum isn't marked as a EOL'D software forum, it's not surprising that you see so many X posts there. Why not call it FCP 1-7 forum, and FCP X forum? Lose the techniques thing. That never made any sense.


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Nicholas Zimmerman
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 9, 2013 at 7:33:22 pm

[Bret Williams] "Why not call it FCP 1-7 forum, and FCP X forum? Lose the techniques thing. That never made any sense."

Basically what I would like to see as well.

--------------------------
Avid MC, PPro CS6, FCP7 - wasting away on my SSD.
I just can't quit X.
--------------------------


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Dennis Radeke
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 9, 2013 at 10:44:23 am

Hey Nicholas,

Didn't read your initial post that way at all. Besides that...What Shane said... ;-)

Cheers,
Dennis


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John Heagy
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 4:06:56 pm

Collaborative workflows on shared storage is what Apple needs to fix before we could use FCPX. It comes down to the nature of events for a local storage single user vs groups using shared storage. In a local system events can be shared with all projects, in shared storage they can't. Oh... and copying is not sharing... it's copying.

Admittedly not a concern for the vast majority of users and therefore not a concern for Apple it seems.

John


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Charlie Austin
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 8, 2013 at 4:59:25 pm

[John Heagy] "Collaborative workflows on shared storage is what Apple needs to fix before we could use FCPX. It comes down to the nature of events for a local storage single user vs groups using shared storage. In a local system events can be shared with all projects, in shared storage they can't. Oh... and copying is not sharing... it's copying.

Admittedly not a concern for the vast majority of users and therefore not a concern for Apple it seems.
"


If you're on NAS, X works essentially exactly the same as 7. Also, could multiple editors work on the same FCP 7 project at the same time? I wasn't aware of that. Don't use a SAN,so I can't comment on that...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 9, 2013 at 3:19:26 pm

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "I honestly can't see any reason to stick with Legacy other than an aversion to change. "

While I would like and am actively searching for a non zombied NLE, at the moment, given my workflow, none of the alternatives comes close to giving me the speed and flexibility of Legacy.

I still need tape in and out, so there goes any desire for FCPX; 99% of my material is Quicktime ProRes which does not need rendering in FCP7, so there goes any need for Avid,FCPX or PPro; I need very robust multi-cam, so that throws out PPro; I like the ability to "send" to Motion so there's Legacy over X again, I prefer to edit with my video and audio disconnected and therefore depend on robust sync markers - so out goes X and PPro again.

What you can't see is simply a testament to your limitations and lack of vision.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Nicholas Zimmerman
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 9, 2013 at 8:22:18 pm

[Herb Sevush] "at the moment, given my workflow, none of the alternatives comes close to giving me the speed and flexibility of Legacy"

That's a shame.

[Herb Sevush] "I still need tape in and out, so there goes any desire for FCPX"

I think Apple were just a few years too early to kill this feature. I'll either ingest in 7 or Resolve and print out of either one too.

[Herb Sevush] "99% of my material is Quicktime ProRes which does not need rendering in FCP7"

So long as you don't add any filters, color correction, composite layers.

[Herb Sevush] "I need very robust multi-cam, so that throws out PPro"

X's multicam is much better than 7's. I did a concert gig with 5 HD cameras, output from the live switcher, and audio from the mixing board. Some cameras turned on and off throughout. X was able to give me a multicam clip from all of these, and it was perfect. I dread the thought of doing that on 7.

[Herb Sevush] "I like the ability to "send" to Motion so there's Legacy over X again"

I'm pretty sure you're not alone in wanting this.

[Herb Sevush] "What you can't see is simply a testament to your limitations and lack of vision."

Excuse you? Limitations... lack of vision... how exactly would you expect to have even the slightest clue as to either of those? I had a dog in the races for FCP7, I'd been using it since 4HD, and had become incredibly fast with it. I was also well aware of how suffocating it's limitations could be.

I see plenty of people every day without any of the valid reasons you described to stick with 7. They're always complaining about "Oh this DSLR footage is taking forever" and "Why does it always take five hours to render." I'm in a school environment at the moment, and these students have a complete freedom of choice in what to edit in, but even in a school environment, they don't want to learn anything new. They don't have the years of experience, investments in infrastructure, etc, that keep you there. Most of them took 1-2 classes two years ago, barely passed them, and now trudge away in 7 with sloppy sequences, spread across multiple drives. Their only reason not for switching is that they "know" 7, which in all honesty they don't. They know how to stumble around 7 endlessly until something finally works.

My hobby for the last three years has been to take advantage of my time back in school by learning as much as I could. I'm constantly on Lynda.com, Ripple Training, and lately Curious Turtle (Mocha training). I've tried to gain a working knowledge of a wide variety of programs, which has helped me to always choose the right one for each job. It's allowed me to be nimble with software, and not stuck to the whims of a company that might kill your breadwinner (Apple) or hold your software hostage (Adobe). Yet I'm constantly surrounded by people that say "I want to learn it, but I don't have time right now." Then you see them at a bar the next night. People don't seem to realize that they can't simply rest on the knowledge they already have and remain competitive.

Look Herb, you've got your reasons for sticking with 7, I understand that. That doesn't give you any right to pretend that you know about my limitations or vision. Frankly it's insulting. An apology or explanation of why I don't deserve one is in order.

--------------------------
Avid MC, PPro CS6, FCP7 - wasting away on my SSD.
I just can't quit X.
--------------------------


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Michael Gissing
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 9, 2013 at 11:11:23 pm

Ten points for enthusiasm Nicholas. Obviously not everyone shares that keenness or perhaps your workflow. The recent death of renowned editor Gerry Hambling marked the last of the editors that were cutting big budget features on a Moviola. Expect Legacy to be not only popular but also rather useful for at least a while longer.

So as much as you might be keen to move us all on, allow working tools that suit people and specific workflows to be used without value judgements that somehow not embracing FCPX is a personal failure. Our resident enthusiast Bill does at least cut that much slack.


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Herb Sevush
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 10, 2013 at 1:59:03 am

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "That doesn't give you any right to pretend that you know about my limitations or vision. Frankly it's insulting. An apology or explanation of why I don't deserve one is in order."

While I won't offer an apology I will happily supply the explanation.

Below are 2 quotes from your original posting


[Nicholas Zimmerman] I honestly can't see any reason to stick with Legacy other than an aversion to change.

[Nicholas Zimmerman] It just doesn't make any sense to me economically that anyone would stay in FCP7 this long.

Those are rather grand and sweeping statements. Anyone who still uses Legacy does it because he has an aversion to change and can't "see" their own economic self interest. You couldn't "see" any reason why even a single person would logically stay with Legacy. That's what the word "anyone" connotes in that sentence. When I then detailed why it was perfectly logical for me to stay with Legacy I then questioned your rather faulty eyesight, your limitations in not seeing how your statement was false, at least in my case.

I was using the word vision in the narrowest sense, I'm not responsible for your taking it in the larger sense - in other words I wasn't implying that you lacked artistic vision, I was simply saying that you were blind, as far as your arguments go. If you had said you couldn't understand why "many people" or even "most people" stuck with Legacy I would have silently agreed with you and posted nothing at all.

If you don't like my response I suggest you choose your words more carefully. That and a little humility would go a long way.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Nicholas Zimmerman
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 10, 2013 at 2:35:06 am

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "I honestly can't see any"

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "It just doesn't make any sense to me"

Both were personal statements. What I see every day, the people that I deal with, only stick with 7 because they know it and aren't willing to learn a new system. I understand that there are exceptions to this, you being one of them. These are students, and if they're already this complacent, I fear for their futures. Knowing that the software you use is EOL should scare the bageezus out of anyone, and it seems irresponsible to not at least learn something that has a future of use ahead of it, be it MC, Premiere, or X. At this point the number of 7 editors is only shrinking by the day.

Knowing what I know, with the experiences that I've had, I feel sticking with 7 is, for the most part, a terrible idea. The entire reason for starting this was because the naming of the forums is both out of date, and demeaning to FCPX. Whether or not anyone likes it, FCPX is the current version of Final Cut Pro, and has been for almost two years. Yet when somebody posts anything about the living FCP in the FCP forum, they are told to go elsewhere. I get that a lot of people are still upset about X, but that doesn't change that it is the modern Final Cut Pro, and that 7 is EOL.

This type of thing only continues the stigma that grew from FCPX's awful launch. It's been almost two years, and for such a young program, FCPX has matured by leaps and bounds. Even if they switched the names to Apple Final Cut Pro 1-7 and Apple Final Cut Pro X, that would be enough. But the current setup of "This is for Apple Final Cut Pro" and "This is for Apple FCPX Techniques" just doesn't seem right to me.

We live in an industry that changes very rapidly. Who knows if Avid will survive the decade, let alone the next 2 years. Will Adobe flounder under the weight of their Creative Cloud debacle? What will Apple unveil tomorrow, will it be the end of the "real" Mac Pro? We don't know these answers. No matter what happens we'll still have to put food on the table, which means we'll have to adapt.

Adaptation and constant learning should be celebrated merits among us.

--------------------------
Avid MC, PPro CS6, FCP7 - wasting away on my SSD.
I just can't quit X.
--------------------------


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Herb Sevush
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 10, 2013 at 2:02:51 pm

[Nicholas Zimmerman] " What I see every day, the people that I deal with, only stick with 7 because they know it and aren't willing to learn a new system ... These are students, and if they're already this complacent, I fear for their futures."

I don't understand why you would conflate your students and the professionals on this forum - these are not equivalent groups. Different needs, different motivations and obviously different experiences.

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "Knowing that the software you use is EOL should scare the bageezus out of anyone"

Concern more than scare, but otherwise, yes.

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "The entire reason for starting this was because the naming of the forums is both out of date, and demeaning to FCPX. Whether or not anyone likes it, FCPX is the current version of Final Cut Pro, and has been for almost two years."

FCP7 and FCPX are two entirely different programs that share nothing other than their name and their parentage. My guess is the user base for FCP7 is still larger than that for FCPX and those users want and deserve a forum to share their issues and concerns. Since they were here first, and possession being nine tenths of something or other, they get to keep the name of their forum. While you might see it as demeaning to X, I see Apple's use of the name Final Cut Pro with their new editing Ap as demeaning to Final Cut Pro. If you want to blame someone for this fiasco I suggest you start with the folks in Cupertino.

[Nicholas Zimmerman] "Adaptation and constant learning should be celebrated merits among us."

I agree and I bitterly resent all those who frame the "or not" forces as being mud stuck troglodytes. I use Legacy because it is still, to my amazement and dismay, the best Ap for my workflow. At the moment the leading candidate for my next choice is Avid, which is like taking a step backwards in time. I wish it were otherwise, I wish either X or PPro met my needs. At the moment they don't and I see no reason to believe that they will in the future. I still have hope for Lightworks, but it's actually more like a prayer. None of this means I'm averse to constant learning and insinuating it does just pisses me off.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Scott Cumbo
Re: So I went off on a rant about FCPX on the "FCP" forum...
on Jun 10, 2013 at 2:58:52 am

Just let it go already. I use FCP7 every day because that's what the client wants (even though i personely prefer Avid) I don't get paid for the software i use, i get paid for how i edit. The software is just a tool.

Scott Cumbo
Lead Editor
Bellator MMA/Spike TV


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