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OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?

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Neil Goodman
OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 24, 2013 at 10:23:26 pm

Hello, not necessarily an NLE specific question but you guys all know your stuff here and is the best resource on the net imo.

I have just received two Ep's of a show. Normally these are 2 camera shoots, 5D's both at 23.976. Audio recorded at 23.976 as well from an external recorder. Some multicam involved for interviews, etc. Some scenes are single cam. Also its an offline workflow using MEdia Composer to DNX36 where i then link picture lock to the original h264s and transcode again to 175.

These two episodes the ACAM was at 29.97 and the BCAM and Audio are both running 23.976. What are my options here?

I tried just out of sure panic to convert a take of the acam using mpeg streamclip to 23.976 but the audio wouldnt sync no matter how i tried, even pluraleyes failed, and there was a noticeable strobe in the footage.

Am i (or production more-so) screwed, or is there something we can do besides reshoot? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - The Esquire Network - NBC/Uni


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 24, 2013 at 11:06:17 pm

The audio should sync to both of them at their native speeds.

I wouldn't convert anything.

I'd edit in a 29.97 timeline, let the 24p footage get pulled down and audio will sync with both.

Unless of course, Avid can't work in this mixed frame rate environment.

Another option is to work in a 720p59.94 timeline to keep things progressive.

The 30p will get 2:2 progressive pulldown, the 24p will get 3:2 progressive pulldown.


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Neil Goodman
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 24, 2013 at 11:11:13 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The audio should sync to both of them at their native speeds.

I wouldn't convert anything.

I'd edit in a 29.97 timeline, let the 24p footage get pulled down and audio will sync with both.

Unless of course, Avid can't work in this mixed frame rate environment.

Another option is to work in a 720p59.94 timeline to keep things progressive.

The 30p will get 2:2 progressive pulldown, the 24p will get 3:2 progressive pulldown."


Thanks for the reply Jeremy!

The final delivery is 1080 24P, and there is multicam involved which wont work with different frame rates inside Media Composer.

Delivery at 720 is also not an option, and i dont really have a choice between NLE's.

Much appreciated but theres got to be another way!

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - The Esquire Network - NBC/Uni


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 24, 2013 at 11:19:31 pm

Of course there's other ways, but since you will need to match back to cam originals, you will either have to match back by hand at the end and convert again, or make new cam masters.

You can use a frame interpolated conversion from Compressor, or a twixtored version, or perhaps try Episode 6. In use Episode 6 for most of my standards conversions and they always pass decently stringent broadcast QC. Episode 6 is my current favorite.

I will warn you, a frame interped 30 to 24p conversion might not always work extra well.

If you don't have Episode 6:

My first choice, would be to try Compressor. Test both the best and better settings for the frame rate conversion option and of course make sure to leave duration at 100%.

Jeremy


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Oliver Peters
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 25, 2013 at 12:28:28 am

1. First - fire the camera operator. This is a HUGE mistake.
2. Edit at 29.97 with pulldown added to the second camera.
3. Find a Teranex to do a 30-24 conversion for the final master. Forget a software approach is you want the best results.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 25, 2013 at 12:38:39 am

YMMV on Teranex.

Just sayin'.

Episode 6 is my current favorite.


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Chris Harlan
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 25, 2013 at 7:46:12 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "YMMV on Teranex.

Just sayin'.

Episode 6 is my current favorite.
"


I always want to go with hardware, but I do hear good things about Telestream.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 25, 2013 at 3:03:12 pm

[Chris Harlan] "
I always want to go with hardware, but I do hear good things about Telestream."


Hardware has a real time advantage. In my experience, Teranex has a fantastic scalar as well.

But when you get in to frame rate conversions, especially going progressive to progressive, software can do a mighty fine job.

It really does depend on source footage and movement.

There isn't a one size fits all. I have been known to go shot by shot adjusting the recipe for the motion of the shot.

Graphics are best redone at the final frame rate.

Teranex does have an advantage if you need real time.

There's no doubt this is a problem, but my guess is that you can get it solved with a little elbow grease and time.


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Chris Harlan
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 25, 2013 at 7:43:00 am

[Oliver Peters] "1. First - fire the camera operator. This is a HUGE mistake.
2. Edit at 29.97 with pulldown added to the second camera.
3. Find a Teranex to do a 30-24 conversion for the final master. Forget a software approach is you want the best results.

- Oliver"


Yes, Oliver is right on, here. Hardware conversion is best. I spend a lot of time going from 29.97 to 25, and it is far cleaner. You could use Teranex to convert 29.97 source material to 24 to edit in 24, but if you can't do that first, definately edit at 29.97. Pulldown from the 24 to 29.97 works well.

A quick note: When editing at 29.97 for 24, be very careful about fast flash cuts and very quick inserts. Try not to make any cuts involving movement under 10 frames, and definitely not under 8. These might look stunning at 29.97, but fall apart when you remove a fifth of their frames.


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Michael Lewis
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on Apr 10, 2014 at 5:53:06 am

I'm working on a tv episode made all from stock footage. Most of it is from films whose editing timebase was 23.976. My timeline is also 23.976. The problem is, the film masters contains shots that I know were either shot at 29.97 and either conformed with cinema tools to 23.976 and then sped back up to 125% to play realtime, or just simply dropped in the timeline and exported. This is causing the episode to fail QC due to dropped frames all over the place. I don't have access to a media managed version of the film, so if I were to run the film masters--or perhaps my entire episode--through the Teranex 2d with project settings at ProRes 422 1080p 23.976 for both playback and captures, would this fix my problem? What is the suggested workflow here? Are there any alternative software conversion suggestions, will mpeg streamclip, Episode 6, or some sort of Red Giant software be a solution as well? Thanks for your help.


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Joseph Owens
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 27, 2013 at 5:32:16 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "My first choice, would be to try Compressor. Test both the best and better settings for the frame rate conversion option and of course make sure to leave duration at 100%."

Now that I have a Teranex, that is what I would choose. Prior to this, Compressor has been the go-to, but it does take an enormous amount of time to achieve master-quality results.

"Good" isn't, "Better" adds a zero to the end of the estimated conversion time, but is acceptable, and "Best" adds another zero to the time required, but it is not 10 times better.

and of course, YMMV.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 27, 2013 at 7:46:09 pm

Episode 6 is better than Compressor.

Be sure to see the advanced frame rate check box.

And yes Better is sometimes (most of the time?) better than Best using Compressor.

:)


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Lance Bachelder
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 25, 2013 at 6:12:39 am

Yeah you're gonna have strobe in the 29.97 footage for sure - pretty much any way you covert it including Twixtor. Oliver's Teranex suggestion is probably best (also his firing the A cam gets my vote).

Have you tried setting up a 23.976 Avid project and bringing in the 29.97 footage as is into a sequence? The Avid can probably do as good a job as anything else at pulling it down?

Alt Plan: If you are on a PC, download Sony Vegas 12 - it's a fully functioning 30 day trial (unless you have it). Set up a 1080p 23.976 project and place the 29.97 clips on the timeline (turn re-sampling OFF) and render out DNX 175 files at 23.976 - this will get you a decent version but there will still be some strobing but your audio will be fine. Vegas does this better than any other NLE out there.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Neil Goodman
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 25, 2013 at 6:33:26 am

[Lance Bachelder] "Have you tried setting up a 23.976 Avid project and bringing in the 29.97 footage as is into a sequence? The Avid can probably do as good a job as anything else at pulling it down?
"



Thanks for the help everyone! Luckily its memorial day weekend and I dont have to deal with this until Tuesday. Also if i had the authority to fire anyone. TRUST ME! lol

This was my first thought, but then will i have to abandon multicam? Theres two 35 minute interviews that will probably ending up being less than 3 minutes, and 2 demos ranging in at 10 minutes a piece. Sounds like a nightmare to do w/o multicam but yea i guess its doable. Also will i have to abandon the offline workflow too? The show eventually goes to Davinci as well, the more i think about the more i hate this situation.

I will also try Compressor to convert a few takes with Jeremy's suggestions, see if the external sound will link up, This way ill still be able post the show the way im accustomed too. If it doesnt pass at the end of the day its not on me but id like to do everything i can to help the sitch. Thanks again, ill post my results, good or bad. If not, ill reccomend the Teranex.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - The Esquire Network - NBC/Uni


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Darren Roark
Re: OT: Converting 29.97 to 24p? And the repercussions of doing so?
on May 25, 2013 at 11:25:58 pm

I'm running into this right now. The camera guy was told 23.98 and shot 30p because it should be "NTSC" in his mind. Ugh.

Question, was it interlaced or progressive? If it's interlaced you can do a pretty good 23.98 conversion with magic bullet frames. Otherwise After Effects has a great pixel motion conversion.


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