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Steve Connor
New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 10:25:25 am

The COW have wisely created another forum to discuss the second biggest NLE marketing disaster in recent times. Might be nice to move further discussions over there?

http://forums.creativecow.net/creativeclouddebate

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Frank Gothmann
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 10:36:32 am

Another "or not"? Wow, this is getting really fun and looney now.
Can we please have Avid, Grassvaley and Sony f**k-up, too, now so we can get all this behind us, close shops and start a soup kitchen?

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Mark Dobson
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 11:49:14 am

With the CC debate moving out it will get a bit quiet here . . . .


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juan prado
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 10, 2013 at 5:32:15 am

At last!!!!!


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 12:54:00 pm

With all due respect,

I think the COW is missing the mark if they think discussion in here is about any one product, and each product should be discussed in its own forum.

Franz.


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Mark Dobson
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 1:13:10 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I think the COW is missing the mark if they think discussion in here is about any one product, and each product should be discussed in its own forum."

Have to agree with that.

If all CC discussion is shifting to it's own forum does that not take the 'or Not' away from FCPX or Not: The Debate"

Undoubtably there's a lot of hot air about the new subscription model - but faced with the unbending new Adobe business model that will surely die down over time.

The main debate on this forum has been between making the choice of Premiere Pro and FCPX , comparing the advantages of both systems, sure there is mention of Avid and other NLEs, but it's mainly been Premiere Pro and FCPX.

It's been a very educational debate so it will be a shame to see it dissipate.


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Steve Connor
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 2:45:23 pm

[Mark Dobson] "If all CC discussion is shifting to it's own forum does that not take the 'or Not' away from FCPX or Not: The Debate""

Not at all, none of the recent Cloud discussion has been relevant to FCPX at all. It may be relevant to the NLE choices you have out there, but that's why there's separate forums for all the NLEs.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 1:14:33 pm

What I think was happening is that the normal Pr forum was turning in to a slam fest of sorts, similar but not equal to what happened with FCP.

I think it's good to draw the heat out of the "support" forum so that users who need help don't get buried in the quagmire.

In think this situation will blow over much faster than the fcpx debacle becuase there's improved software coming in the CC release instead of an entire sea change of methodology.

I understand people's concerns about paying a yearly (or monthly) fee, but if the product is good enough, I would think people might want to pay for it, and that's what remains to be seen. Is CC good enough to warrant the new cost structure?


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Tim Vaughan
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 1:48:26 pm

I'm gonna start a debate about whether or not I want to post in the current forum or in the new creative cloud or not: the debate. This will probably require another bookmark in my bookmark manager, and I'm just not sure I'm ready to commit to that... :)

Tim
Apple XRAID, XServe, 2008 2x3 GHz Quad-Core MacPro, Macbook Pro, XSAN, FCP Studio (7), AVID Media Composer, Adobe Production Premium, Maxon Cinema 4d, AJA Kona 3, Flanders Scientific Monitors, Panasonic HPX250's, Kessler Crane, Glidecam.....
Beer fridge fully loaded.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 4:34:17 pm

[Tim Vaughan] "This will probably require another bookmark in my bookmark manager, and I'm just not sure I'm ready to commit to that... :)"

But the question is, will you sync that bookmark to the cloud, or will you just keep it perpetually in a local bookmark backup folder?


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Tim Vaughan
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 5:59:02 pm

Arggg!!!!!! LOL

Tim
Apple XRAID, XServe, 2008 2x3 GHz Quad-Core MacPro, Macbook Pro, XSAN, Dell Studio xps PC's
FCP Studio (7), AVID Media Composer, Adobe Production Premium, Maxon Cinema 4d, AJA Kona 3, Flanders Scientific Monitors, Panasonic HPX250's, Kessler Crane, Glidecam.....
Beer fridge fully loaded.


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Mark Suszko
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 1:49:56 pm

by way of comment,







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Craig Seeman
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 3:24:47 pm

A long while back I thought it would be good to make this forum about industry trends which is really what it's become. Consider how the CC debate ignited here even though it may have been happening in the Premiere forum as well.

Of course as a forum manager it's probably much more attractive to views to have a proper place that people scouring the web for discussion, can find.

Perhaps the COW should consider a parent child forum relationship. Industry Debate with sub forums on FCPX/Apple, CS/CC/Adobe, Avid, might be good subs. Cross product comparisons could be flagged (hmm, time for the COW to consider something like FCPX Smart Collections).



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Chris Harlan
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 4:26:16 pm

[Craig Seeman] "A long while back I thought it would be good to make this forum about industry trends which is really what it's become. Consider how the CC debate ignited here even though it may have been happening in the Premiere forum as well.
"


For sure. I think this forum HAS been about industry trends for a very long time. That's why most of us still show up. Tim's just holding the name hostage because he's full of devilment (you know you are!) but we became something else a long time ago.

[Craig Seeman] "Of course as a forum manager it's probably much more attractive to views to have a proper place that people scouring the web for discussion, can find.
"


No. Its devilment.


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 4:24:42 pm

I would keep all discussion here.

After Apple changed the post-production world with FCPX for a big part, we had 2 forums:
FCPX techniques, just a technical forum for people who work with FCX, and this forum which became a bit of a loose discussion board about NLE's. Avid. Premiere. Apple. The Industry.

Very interesting discussions.

A shame to break it up to seperate boards.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 4:36:09 pm

[Mathieu Ghekiere] "I would keep all discussion here."

Going through some of the posts in the other debate forum, it has turned personal pretty quickly.

I'm not sure I can handle it all again. This forum is, mostly, a pleasant place to be.

If history is any indication, it will get worse before it gets better.


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Chris Harlan
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 4:51:55 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Mathieu Ghekiere] "I would keep all discussion here."

Going through some of the posts in the other debate forum, it has turned personal pretty quickly.

I'm not sure I can handle it all again. This forum is, mostly, a pleasant place to be.

If history is any indication, it will get worse before it gets better.
"


Yes, I think that exists right now as a drainage system to channel the rage so that regular support discussions can continue on the Adobe forums. And maybe on this forum, too. I agree with you. I think we should discuss it because it is a significant industry move, but the last two days of ROID RAGE is about all I can take. The changes Apple made with X opened up so much discussion about the way forward, that something was able to flower from it. I don't think thats going to be the case with this particular CC issue.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 4:58:15 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I think we should discuss it because it is a significant industry move, but the last two days of ROID RAGE is about all I can take. The changes Apple made with X opened up so much discussion about the way forward, that something was able to flower from it. I don't think thats going to be the case with this particular CC issue."

What seems to be lost os that there is actual improved software on the other side of the CC release.

It just doesn't seem to matter.


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Steve Connor
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 5:01:04 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What seems to be lost os that there is actual improved software on the other side of the CC release.

It just doesn't seem to matter."


Perhaps that's why the release is still a while away, they're waiting for the dust to settle

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Tim Wilson
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 5:50:53 pm

Here's why I'm inclined to keep the Debate forums separate:


1) They're different debates.

The one there is basically, "Q: Why are you changing licensing? A: We think it's best for you and us. Q: Nuh-uh. A: Yuh-huh." Not meaning to make judgments or be overly reductive, but there's a short half-life for that kind of thing.

Here, from the beginning, it was for all the marbles. Workflows, careers, self-identity, and blowing up the entire industry to start over.

Unless it wasn't. But that's where the debate began, and very quickly expanded to take in, well, as Steve's sig says, everything.

This one's about everything. That one's about one thing.


2) They're different communities.

How many of you post regularly in the Premiere and AE forums? If not, there's my point. If so, then you know what I'm about to say, which is that many of the people in those forums have online and even in-person relationships that go back years, and they may never have set foot in THIS forum once.

Turns out that some people hadn't been using FCP at any point in the proceedings, and still don't much care one way or the other.

Likewise, plenty of FCP folks don't use AE enough to frequent those forums, and feel like they're finding what they need about Premiere Pro right here.

They're not just forums. They're communities of their own.


3) I try to manage as little as possible.

Both because I'm a lazy bastard and because it works.

When I started at the COW, there were many topic-specific boards with lots and lots of sub-boards, and some of these guys had more traffic than the entire COW on their own. Now, some of them are simply gone, and none of them has a tenth our traffic. Maybe combine them. What we're doing by is mostly working. We only create new subforums slowly, when it seems to us that most of you think it's necessary.

Related to both this point and #2, I've moved the conversations as little distance as I possibly could. FCPX or not debate stuff? Goes in the FCPX-originated forum right next door. Creative Cloud debate stuff? Goes right next to the Premiere and AE forums.


We anticipate overlap, but in the long run, that's preferable to overmanagement. I can imagine a day when they might be better combined too, but so far, in trying to respect the organic evolution of each forum and the communities of specific people they represent, it's making sense to me to keep them as two different discussions.

As always, I'm open to suggestions. Feel free to email me directly, too. But that's what I'm thinkin'.

Tim Wilson
Vice President, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW



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TImothy Auld
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 6:03:34 pm

For whatever it's worth Tim, I agree. Different problem. Arguably a different community. I'm glad the Cow started this forum if for no other reason than that it gives folks an option other than Adobe's official support forums. I saw a long discussion in another thread about how filling out Adobe's wish list was a better option than any other. It most certainly is an option and I would encourage people to do it. Just as much as I would encourage people to post their problems/feelings on independent forums such as the Cow.

Tim


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 6:24:35 pm

[Tim Wilson] "As always, I'm open to suggestions. Feel free to email me directly, too. But that's what I'm thinkin'."

Sounds like a solid plan to me.


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Chris Harlan
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 6:27:44 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Q: Nuh-uh. A: Yuh-huh"

Now THAT is a name for a forum!


[Tim Wilson] "Both because I'm a lazy bastard and because it works.
"


Now, if only Adobe could be this forthright, we could get past all of this.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 11:15:06 pm

[Tim Wilson] "This one's about everything."


Tim,

Can you somehow put that in the title, instead of FCPX.

Franz.


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Ronny Courtens
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 10, 2013 at 10:38:02 am

Franz Bieberkopf:
Tim,
Can you somehow put that in the title, instead of FCPX.


I agree 100%. I don't have the time to participate in the debates, but since this forum started I have come here every day for a quick read to see people arguing (rightfully) why they like FCPX, and others (equally rightfully) arguing why it doesn't work for them at this moment. Very good points were made, wether pro or contra.

Unfortunately in the past few months the debate has become less interesting, or should I say it has shifted from "FCPX or Not" towards a general NLE debate. I don't mind this at all, but then IMO the title of the forum should change accordingly.

As an example: I for one am extremely happy that all the CC FUD has been moved away from here, because in all honesty this has nothing to do with wether I would use FCPX or not. I can very happily use FCPX (or not) AND use (or not use) other NLEs at the same time. So either this forum could go back to its roots and really focus on FCPX or Not, or it could remain a general discussion forum as it is now ("There's nothing we can't argue about in this forum"), but then the name of the forum should not reflect FCPX only.

Just my 2 Eurocents.

Best wishes,

Ronny



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Chris Harlan
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 5:31:47 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What seems to be lost os that there is actual improved software on the other side of the CC release.

It just doesn't seem to matter.
"


Yeah, its sort of sucked the discussion away from the tools. Maybe we can get back to those next week.


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TImothy Auld
Re: New Adobe Creative Cloud Debate Forum
on May 9, 2013 at 6:12:31 pm

Well, the tools are great (other than the monumentally stupid way PP handles multi cam and the virtually useless Muse) but that's when they work. I have had bad luck in that regard. So there are folks who've had that problem. And then there are also the artists' rights issues and the fact that Adobe completely controls your access to the CC and yet takes no responsibility for how it functions for you. Objects (issues) may seem smaller than they actually are and you're results/mileage may vary.)

Tim


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