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Is bootlegging really so bad?

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Clint Wardlow
Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 6:10:07 pm

Confession time. My first copy of Final Cut was a bootlegged copy of 2.0. My first copy of photoshop was a bootleg of 7. However, it was working in these pirated copies (which I was reluctant to try because of cost) that convinced me to bite the bullet and purchase licensed copies during the next cycle (CS and FCP 3).

I have a feeling I am not the only one to use this methodology. A lot of folks think that Adobe's move to the cloud is in part to eliminate this type of piracy (though we are assured the cloud will be cracked a couple of weeks into CC7).

I think FCPX eliminated some of this piracy situation with pricing. However, with Adobe, I'm not sure this methodology is going to work in their favor. I mean is having pirated copies out there really all that bad for the bottom line? The people who use pirated copies (and I am guessing on this) are the folks that couldn't afford or were reluctant to spend for the licensed copy in the first place.

Having pirated copies out there leads to a lot more people getting their hands dirty in certain pricey software and may (as in my case) lead to a paying customer down the road.

Am I wrong on this? Missing the boat completely? Any thoughts?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 6:29:05 pm

It seems everyone these days offers fully functioning 30-day demos so that should address those that truly want to evaluate the software before they pony up the cashing to pay for it.

Things like subscription services and the Apple's App Store will stop casual "Hey, can I borrow your disc of XYZ?" type piracy but it won't cut down on cracked versions nor hacks. There are already hacks floating around that will 'un-lock' the 30-day demos as well as versions of FCPX that can be installed w/o using the App Store.

I will admit to enrolling in a night class shortly after graduating college so I could get the student discount on FCP 3.




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TImothy Auld
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 6:34:52 pm

Not that I am as pure as the driven snow in this regard, I still think it's just like robbing a 7-11.

Tim


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:12:17 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Not that I am as pure as the driven snow in this regard, I still think it's just like robbing a 7-11."

No, it's more like downloading blueprints and printing your own copy of the products that 7-11 carries.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 6:39:40 pm

It's not just having a few pirated copies out there, it's developing one of the most pirated softwares in the world, essentially for free, for all of those people. This is an important distinction.

My first copy of FCP was given to me "on loan" as well, and then I bought it.

It was also a time before free downloadable trials.

When you move from hobbyist to someone who needs to support your family with these tools, you will feel differently as you won't want your paycheck "bootlegged" either.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:01:11 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "When you move from hobbyist to someone who needs to support your family with these tools, you will feel differently as you won't want your paycheck "bootlegged" either."

Love your snide devaluation of my post. Not sure how my being a "hobbyist" or bootlegs of expensive software (I am sure families of Adobe execs aren't eating table scraps) takes a dime out of your pocket.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:12:38 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Love your snide devaluation of my post."

It's not a snide devaluation of your post. You are asking if theft is bad.


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:19:02 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " You are asking if theft is bad."

No, you are telling him he is a thief. He is asking about copyright/EULA infringement.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:26:58 pm

[Gary Huff] "No, you are telling him he is a thief. He is asking about copyright/EULA infringement."

That's what bootlegging is?

Apologies.


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:31:56 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "That's what bootlegging is?"

Who was denied use of the copy he bootlegged from his action?


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:29:50 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " You are asking if theft is bad"

Not being judeo-christian or tied to the ten commandments, I can say there are time when theft is not bad. Sometimes it is the moral thing to do.

I am not saying using bootlegged software is one of them (although some of my more militant open-source friends might believe so). But the real question is not whether it is right or wrong. Morality was not what I was looking for.

My question was if it was harmful? And if so, just how harmful?


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:34:30 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "My question was if it was harmful? And if so, just how harmful?"

Aren't the people who actually do the work on salary? So they got paid, and if Photoshop sells a zillion copies, well they already got their salary.

The CEO gets a bonus, stocks go up, the developer gets some cred, but otherwise it's not like that pirated copy, which has been pointed out, it usually copyright infringed by people who can't afford it in the first place, is taking food from anyone's mouths.

I appreciate the desire to do the right thing, but let's not bullshit ourselves in the process.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:13:40 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "My question was if it was harmful? And if so, just how harmful?"

This is a much better question.

It only hurts people like me, the middle of the road dude who is trying to make a living by doing the right thing.

Ya feel me?


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:25:26 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It only hurts people like me, the middle of the road dude who is trying to make a living by doing the right thing."

How exactly?


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Andy Field
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 6:57:05 pm

Are creative pro's really debating if bootlegging is ok?

Try this - you shoot a beauty reel of a city (say Washington DC) and offer it for sale on the web (a license to use it) but millions "borrow" it for free until they decide, "hey this is useful, I'm making money with it, why don't i finally give the owner some money?"

How long will you stay in business with that bootleg model?

Where I live, we call that theft.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:02:06 pm

Here's what happens when you give the people what they want for a fair price:

http://www.slashgear.com/netflix-piracy-rate-goes-down-when-we-arrive-03280...


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:16:20 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Here's what happens when you give the people what they want for a fair price:"

I agree with this. I bet piracy of FCPX took it on the nose with the drastic price drop.

Adobe may have some success with Creative Cloud.

Still the analogy of bootlegging with theft is right on some marks and wrong on others. If companies use ownership to drive prices up and gouge the consumer, where is the ethics in that? That is why we have anti-monopoly and price-fixing laws.

As to the morals of intellectual properties (such as the aforementioned fictional reel of DC) that is a whole nother can of worms.

And as to bootlegged software --perhaps I am just being more honest here and perhaps not. Are you guys really saying you have never used a friend's licence to get a software that was expensive (Jeremy at least fessed up)? Are we all really all that pure? Right or wrong I have a feeling more people that will admit have dirty hands in this respect.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:00:54 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "I agree with this. I bet piracy of FCPX took it on the nose with the drastic price drop."

I have no idea what the piracy nose of FCPX looks like, I only have evidence of Photoshop and Windows because I have read about it in the past.

[Clint Wardlow] "Still the analogy of bootlegging with theft is right on some marks and wrong on others. If companies use ownership to drive prices up and gouge the consumer, where is the ethics in that? That is why we have anti-monopoly and price-fixing laws."

Yes, it is why we have laws. Are you suggesting that Adobe is breaking a law, fixing prices, or gouging? If so, I'd like to hear about it.

No matter how I feel about "the man", I don't think that I can provide an honest, for pay, service using software that I have intentionally cracked. For me, it is not about whether or not I am helping to line the pockets of executives, it's about how I live my life, and how I would want others to treat me if I put a whole lot of work in to something in exchange for money.

I don't know if a major corporation "deserves" to be stolen from, or what level of ethics you are talking about, but I know that, personally, I don't like being robbed. It truly sucks. I don't deserve it.

Stealing software does devalue this business, although I probably can't show you on a hyperlink.

David Lawrence will link you to article about how DRM doesn't work and how DRM only serves to punish they paying user. Guess who I am in that equation?

[Clint Wardlow] "And as to bootlegged software --perhaps I am just being more honest here and perhaps not. Are you guys really saying you have never used a friend's licence to get a software that was expensive (Jeremy at least fessed up)? Are we all really all that pure? Right or wrong I have a feeling more people that will admit have dirty hands in this respect."

Yeah, many years ago, I had a hand me down computer and someone let me use their copy of FCP. Very quickly after seeing it, I bought my own copy. If FCP was available for $20/mo back then, I would have paid for it after I used the free trial for 30 days.

My first copies of Adobe software I owned, I paid the student rate and was allowed to upgrade to a full version after that and I have been upgrading since.

If you are asking if companies should price their products fairly and treat their customers ethically, then yes, they should and should be taken to task if they are not leading ethical practices. I would love to hear any evidence that Adobe is straying from ethical behavior.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:23:57 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Yes, it is why we have laws. Are you suggesting that Adobe is breaking a law, fixing prices, or gouging? If so, I'd like to hear about it."

Wasn't really aiming at Adobe at all. Was responding to your general statement that "theft is bad" with an equally general "not always."

As to Adobe, I have been a paying customer for years and will continue to be as I am a Cloud subscriber. Although I do think they can be pricey, I certainly am not accusing them of price gouging or monopoly.

I am seeing a lot of righteous indignation here (and this isn't necessarily directed at you, Jeremy). I was just being honest about my path into becoming a paying customer (a journey in which I am sure I am not alone despite the many loud moral judgements). I guess I should be blamed for violating the first rule of the internet: never confess to anything online.

My question was not about the morality, but the reality.


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:26:11 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "My question was not about the morality, but the reality."

Which is where I'm coming from...too many people spout utter nonsense on this issue, because they've been told what they're supposed to think about it, and haven't even considered what it really means.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:29:24 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "My question was not about the morality, but the reality."

So you should have asked, "how many of you use unlicensed software?" instead of "is bootlegging really so bad"?

[Clint Wardlow] "I am seeing a lot of righteous indignation here "

Like what, specifically?


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:36:10 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Clint Wardlow] "My question was not about the morality, but the reality."

So you should have asked, "how many of you use unlicensed software?" instead of "is bootlegging really so bad"?"


Maybe so.



[Jeremy Garchow] "[Clint Wardlow] "I am seeing a lot of righteous indignation here "

Like what, specifically?"


Look I am not naming names here. Frankly, flame wars can become tedious. But, I think it is pretty obvious.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:40:41 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Look I am not naming names here. Frankly, flame wars can become tedious. But, I think it is pretty obvious."

I was just wondering if you saw it in this one thread or if you are talking about the general reaction to Creative Cloud on the internet.

Put simply, I'm not sure who or what is righteously indignified, but I am a fool.

Jeremy


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:58:20 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I was just wondering if you saw it in this one thread or if you are talking about the general reaction to Creative Cloud on the internet.

Put simply, I'm not sure who or what is righteously indignified, but I am a fool."


Hey I guess I am being a little hard here. We all (including myself) have our moments of righteous indignation. And it does happen on this forum from time to time. And it has certainly been aimed at both FCPX and now CC. I guess we all have to get up on our high horse every now and again.

And like I said before, it is all my own fault anyway for violating the internet prime directive: never confess or post anything personal or give an opinion online unless you want to draw heat.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:17:50 pm

OK - here's where it hurts me, the freelancer, owner of my own business. I have the expenses of hardware, electricity to power the hardware, property taxes to have a place of business, education and experience, and a lot of software (CS6 Master Collection, many plugins, 3ds Max, and a bunch of other business and animation software which I purchase). I charge an hourly fee based loosely on what it costs me to get up and running daily, plus a bit of profit (sometimes).

The pimple nosed kid down the block finds the ten thousand plus software on a torrents sites, uses his parents computers, and opens for business, touting himself as an editor, cinematographer, and animator, selling his services for 10 bucks an hour, and bringing in work from companies who don't know the difference it makes working with experienced people, or don't care, as long as they have something to put on their website. What I charge a real price for, he sells for soda and candy bar money...

How does that hurt me. You figure it out...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:39:52 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "How does that hurt me. You figure it out..."

If your clients cannot differentiate between your work and this pimple-nosed kid's...I think you have more problems then how easily something can be copied.

And that's not going away with DRM. I have lost very low rate jobs to people with way more expensive gear than what I can bring, stuff that can't simply be copied, so it's not just related to that.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:47:06 pm

Boy Gary -

You walked right past the point and stepped over it as if you had blinders on! Lots of jobs go to people who don't even have a demo to show - I'm talking about the bottom feeders who can afford to take any price from a client because they have no expense into the software.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:50:28 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "
You walked right past the point and stepped over it as if you had blinders on! Lots of jobs go to people who don't even have a demo to show - I'm talking about the bottom feeders who can afford to take any price from a client because they have no expense into the software."


I pointed out that I've lost basically a bottom feeder job to someone with a ton of equipment that can't just be copied either (we're talking bringing a good $14,000 of gear for a $250/week rental rate).

How is that not pointing out that this sort of thing is all over, and not necessarily related to someone who has access to torrenting? What if that pimple-nosed kid you brought up has a legal copy, just had his Dad purchase the Student/Teacher edition?

The end result is exactly the same from your end.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:06:08 pm

[Andy Field] "How long will you stay in business with that bootleg model?"

Yeah all the bootlegging of Adobe software has sure put them at risk as a company.

Boy, I touched a nerve with this one.


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:16:04 pm

[Andy Field] "How long will you stay in business with that bootleg model? Where I live, we call that theft."

Welcome to the world in which we live, where everything that can be copied, will be copied.

It's called "copyright infringement" legally...because if I "steal" something from you, you do not have the ability to use what I took from you anymore...if I simply make a perfect copy, you still have use of yours.

Besides, what if I take the exact same shots of Washington DC and put it up on the web for free? How would that be any different as an end result? Should I be legally prohibited from doing so?


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Andy Field
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:40:26 pm

"if i take the same shots of Washington DC"

But you can do that - without stealing my work.....it cost you your time and creativity....but if you take someone else's time and creativity without paying for it...that's theft...

it was theft when Napster let people get away without paying for the hard work artists put into their songs...and it's theft when someone doesn't pay to license software that a company spends millions on R and D creating.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:16:51 pm

Have you ever done work for a client (to standard) and they've vanished with it, and your fee, burning a hole in their pocket? If you've been around for any length of time, you've had this happen.

It sucks.

Having said that, there are ways to access software legally when one (for whatever reason) can't afford a license. For example, my partner and I, are always open to letting filmmakers use our tools (at night usually or sometimes during the day when machines are free) at no cost, to make their short films. The thought behind it being, people can usually use a break, and if things work out well, then they can afford to buy their own tools.

So that's what I tell people just starting out. There's no harm in asking for a favour, everyone in this business has benefited from others generosity in some way.

Respect your tools, as they are your means to an end.


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David Lawrence
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:36:44 pm

What I find interesting is that by eliminating perpetual licensing, Adobe actually creates a new incentive for piracy. The same hack that eliminates reliance on Adobe's authentication servers is also a safeguard against future price gouging and guarantees future access to files. I'm not advocating piracy here, but if a goal of Creative Cloud is to combat illegal copies, I think it may have an unintended opposite effect.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Andy Field
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:47:14 pm

"it usually copyright infringed by people who can't afford it in the first place, is taking food from anyone's mouths."

Astonished that this conversation's taking place between creative professionals.

People who can't afford it - that's the justification for taking something and using it without paying for it?

Hey, I can't afford a Mercedes - guess I'll go to the lot and steal it. Would have paid for it if I had enough money.

Would love that sirloin steak -- but my boss doesn't pay me enough. Time for the five fingered discount.

Stealing software DOES hurt a company - it devalues the intellectual property they've spent millions creating.

If you are a musician and create a song and sell it on itunes - but everyone just shares or finds a way to download it for free -- are you jumping for joy to help the person who couldn't afford the 99 cent download? No - you've just lost money on something you created.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 7:58:22 pm

[Andy Field] "Hey, I can't afford a Mercedes - guess I'll go to the lot and steal it. Would have paid for it if I had enough money"

No, no, no. Please stop with these entirely asinine comparisons.

"Hey, I can't afford a Mercedes...guess I'll download a 3D schematic and print it out on my MakerBot!"

Perhaps those of us who are not delusional about this issue would take your point more seriously if you don't resort to illogical points?

Would love that sirloin steak -- but my boss doesn't pay me enough. Time for the five fingered discount.

Again, not even a comparison.


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Andy Field
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:12:54 pm

Gary, you are quite the diplomat

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:42:28 pm

[Andy Field] "Gary, you are quite the diplomat"

If nobody tells you you're being full of it, how will you ever learn?


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Andy Field
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:11:28 pm

Gary - you are saying it's ok to use software as a professional and not pay for it. And that's legal and ok?

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:24:00 pm

[Andy Field] "Gary - you are saying it's ok to use software as a professional and not pay for it. And that's legal and ok?"

Now you are setting up a strawman for yourself to knock down, then put your hands on your hips and declare victory.

I take it you failed debate?


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Andy Field
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 10:05:09 pm

Gary, know enough about debate not to get involved with someone who insults and belittles. But good to learn about others flexible situational ethics.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 10:11:51 pm

[Andy Field] "Gary, know enough about debate not to get involved with someone who insults and belittles."

Think of it this way...how would you respond to someone making the claim that the moon landings were faked, and their constant response to you was with poor analogy, illogical "if A therefore B", and strawmen?

You'd probably react the same way.


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Andy Field
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 10:37:45 pm

Gary I'm clearly not smart enough to understand anything you are saying.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 10:39:27 pm

[Andy Field] "Gary I'm clearly not smart enough to understand anything you are saying."

You don't have to be a jerk about things...but you're clearly not making very good analogies...I'm not the only one saying so.

So are you just sitting there with your arms crossed going, "It IS JUST LIKE stealing a car!" or will you actually step out of the b.s. cloud and see that your snide comments about depriving people of things doesn't really match up with the reality of how copyright infringement actually works?


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Andy Field
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 10:46:01 pm

How on earth is using software you did not pay for, created by people who spent years creating, ethical or legal?

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 11:16:28 pm

[Andy Field] "How on earth is using software you did not pay for, created by people who spent years creating,"

And who got paid a salary for every one of those years.

Again, I'm trying to avoid the b.s. by people who haven't seemed to think this issue through. You want to argue a completely different question then what was asked, which was "Is it really so bad?"

Adobe has been a profitable company throughout the period where their software was one of the most pirated in the world. The people who did the direct work of creating this software all got paid on salary, which was not directly tied to any amount of copies that were sold.

Exactly how bad is it? I don't care if you have a problem with it. I'm not saying that it's right or should be legal or whatever. But the fact remains that people pirate, have pirated, and will pirate, and our response to these thought-exercises should be to look at things as they are, and not just offer some knee-jerk robotic response of "Copyright infringement is stealing and stealing is bad and you should feel bad."


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Andy Field
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 11:37:17 pm

[Gary Huff] Adobe has been a profitable company throughout the period where their software was one of the most pirated in the world. The people who did the direct work of creating this software all got paid on salary, which was not directly tied to any amount of copies that were sold."

Unbelievably wrong - their salary, the companies profits and it's very existence was tied to the number of copies that were sold.

[Gary Huff] But the fact remains that people pirate, have pirated, and will pirate, and our response to these thought-exercises should be to look at things as they are, and not just offer some knee-jerk robotic response of "Copyright infringement is stealing and stealing is bad and you should feel bad.""

And people steal and shoplift and break all kinds of laws, so we should just acknowledge that they do it, shrug our shoulders and go on with our day - nothing to see here. Gary, you are a professional photographer...you're OK with people pirating your work and not getting paid?

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 11:44:06 pm

[Andy Field] ". Gary, you are a professional photographer...you're OK with people pirating your work and not getting paid?"

No.

Is it a fact of life and there's nothing I can really do about it?

Yes. And you know what else? If you are dead set against piracy and decry it at every opportunity, it's not going to save your own output from not being pirated one iota. It strikes me that people seem to have this idea in the back of their heads, "Hey as long as I'm deadset against piracy, the copyright gods will bless me." Doesn't work like that.

Let me ask you something: there are two names on this thread who had admitted to software piracy. What should their punishment be?


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Andy Field
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 11:55:12 pm

whatever the law says it should be...there are fines.....I create films, videos, radio programs for a living....if someone pirates that work, they aren't just making a copy....they are stealing someone's hard work and not paying for it.....that is theft, plain and simple -- the folks who've admitted to it know its wrong and in depending on the circumstance illegal (the rationalization "I was using it to learn on and never did any paid for work or created something of value with it"....may fall into fair use....the lawyers will have to weigh in on that) But I simply don't understand creative professionals justifying this.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 11:59:37 pm

[Andy Field] "But I simply don't understand creative professionals justifying this."

Because unless you want "creative professionals" to only stem from people with money, then you have to understand that sometimes it's a way for people who cannot otherwise afford it or have an opportunity to work with the software, to obtain it and learn on it for longer than 30 days.

I would say that there are plenty who can say, "Yes, my first experience with X software was a pirated version, which I have now used for X number of years that I've been a paying customer."

I simply see nothing morally or ethnically wrong with that at all.

And, BTW, as I pointed out before, simply being a hardliner against copyright infringement is not going to stop a single person from infringing on my work. I've come to terms with it, because otherwise it's something I can't do anything about other than worry. Why waste my time worrying about something I am powerless to prevent?

[Andy Field] "(the rationalization "I was using it to learn on and never did any paid for work or created something of value with it"....may fall into fair use....the lawyers will have to weigh in on that)"

Yeah, it doesn't fall into that.

Someone cracking Adobe Creative Cloud is committing copyright infringement since they are primarily doing it to use software they aren't paying for, but if their crack saves your ass when your legitimate copy fails authentication for some reason, does that make it so bad?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:05:38 pm

[Andy Field] "Hey, I can't afford a Mercedes - guess I'll go to the lot and steal it. "

Can you pick me one up too. Maybe in red. And, you know, make mine a Porsche.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:07:48 pm

[Chris Harlan] "you know, make mine a Porsche."

Ah, the elusive Porsc-edes.

Is that like a liger?


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David Lawrence
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:34:09 pm

[Andy Field] "Hey, I can't afford a Mercedes - guess I'll go to the lot and steal it. Would have paid for it if I had enough money."

Andy, with all due respect, it's a bit more complicated then your analogy. Digital and physical properties are very different. And copying is an inherent function of all general-purpose computers. Laws and social norms are still in flux. Again, I do not advocate piracy. If you make money with software, buy it from the developer. It's only fair. Still, this issue is way more complex then you're making it out to be.

Let me play you a song:





_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Andy Field
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:55:20 pm

Cute video, but unfortunately the copyright protection says it's wrong -- here are the rules

http://www.siia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=171&Itemid...

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:16:03 pm

[David Lawrence] "Andy, with all due respect, it's a bit more complicated then your analogy."

David, this isn't just a digital thing. By the reasoning of the cartoon, several centuries of copyright law should be voided. I think that's a ridiculous proposition. Its true that "theft of intellectual property" is an abstract idea, but it is an idea that I value very much. I truly appreciate the notion that, if I write a novel, most modern societies recognize that a transcribed or xeroxed copy of my novel is NOT separate in identity from my work product. It took centuries to create international laws to protect authors, and I'm grateful that we have them.


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David Lawrence
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:44:19 pm

[Chris Harlan] "By the reasoning of the cartoon, several centuries of copyright law should be voided. I think that's a ridiculous proposition."

Chris, don't get me wrong. I very much value the idea of intellectual property too. But I also value fair use, the public domain, and the human tradition of shared culture -- a tradition far far older than the current notion of copyright.

I don't think Nina Paley's intention with this video is say copyright shouldn't exist, rather it's to question how it should co-exist with the public domain in a digitally-enabled culture. The Bono Copyright Act has nothing to do with protecting society.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:48:20 pm

[David Lawrence] "The Bono Copyright Act has nothing to do with protecting society."

And here's the tricky part...people seem to think that pointing out that copyright being primarily used to enrich mega-corporations is bad argument...say that if you argue that depriving an artist of his penny (or less even) of royalty on the iTunes single that you pirated isn't that big of a deal.

However, then is the near obliteration of public domain via legislation bought and paid for by these mega-corporations also fair? Certain people would like to drop the "theif" label on those who make an exact duplicate of a piece of software and learn on it until they can afford it, but apparently don't give a single shit about the absolute destruction of public domain simply to keep money flowing into the coffers of people who are generations removed from the person who actually did the work of creation.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:48:29 pm

[David Lawrence] "Chris Harlan] "By the reasoning of the cartoon, several centuries of copyright law should be voided. I think that's a ridiculous proposition."

Chris, don't get me wrong. I very much value the idea of intellectual property too. But I also value fair use, the public domain, and the human tradition of shared culture -- a tradition far far older than the current notion of copyright.

I don't think Nina Paley's intention with this video is say copyright shouldn't exist, rather it's to question how it should co-exist with the public domain in a digitally-enabled culture. The Bono Copyright Act has nothing to do with protecting society.
"


Yeah, I can go with all that. And, yes, I think the Bono thing is greed city.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:05:27 pm

[David Lawrence] "What I find interesting is that by eliminating perpetual licensing, Adobe actually creates a new incentive for piracy. The same hack that eliminates reliance on Adobe's authentication servers is also a safeguard against future price gouging and guarantees future access to files. I'm not advocating piracy here, but if a goal of Creative Cloud is to combat illegal copies, I think it may have an unintended opposite effect."

Like a lock on the front door of your house, it's a deterrent. It's not designed to make Adobe products unhackable. It's designed to help combat things like the casual 'loaning' of discs and people selling computers on ebay/craigslist 'fully loaded' with thousands of dollars of pre-installed apps.

Anyone can already download the 30-day trial + a hack to make it work indefinitely so I don't think CC opens the door to a new wave of pirating of Adobe's products.




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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:11:50 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Anyone can already download the 30-day trial + a hack to make it work indefinitely so I don't think CC opens the door to a new wave of pirating of Adobe's products."

I think it does...for people who want it to just work and not have to worry about the software being unable to call home for whatever reason.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:23:11 pm

[Gary Huff] "I think it does...for people who want it to just work and not have to worry about the software being unable to call home for whatever reason."

I guess I'm wondering how many business owners who currently pay for Adobe products will now pirate Adobe products vs how many people who currently pirate Adobe products will continue to pirate Adobe products.

I know of a few facilities, rather large places, that used to pirate software as a matter of course (not sure if they still do or not) but by and large the people I know and the shops I've been all have legit copies of their software. I could see them moving to another vender but not pirating software as a common practice.




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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:25:00 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I guess I'm wondering how many business owners who currently pay for Adobe products will now pirate Adobe products vs how many people who currently pirate Adobe products will continue to pirate Adobe products."

Depends on if the software "shorts out" on them in the middle of a big project and some savy user knows how to setup and run a local activation server.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:54:36 pm

[Gary Huff] "Depends on if the software "shorts out" on them in the middle of a big project and some savy user knows how to setup and run a local activation server."

So you think it will be common for people to have a show stopping activation problem that Adobe can't remedy so they'll hack it so they can continue working and ultimately they'll just cancel their CC membership while using the hack as a 'permanent' solution to run their business on pirated software?




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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:11:11 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "So you think it will be common for people to have a show stopping activation problem that Adobe can't remedy so they'll hack it so they can continue working and ultimately they'll just cancel their CC membership while using the hack as a 'permanent' solution to run their business on pirated software?"

They do it with games all the time. Not quite the same situation, granted, but it happens in that "genre" of software.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:36:55 pm

Not quite the same situation is a bit of an understatement. ;) Buying a game then using a no-disc hack or something like that so you can play the game w/o needing the disc in the tray is not the same thing as pirating a copy of the game.

Sure, some people pirate games and some people pirate software. I'm not convinced though that CC will get business owners to switch from paying for Adobe products to pirating Adobe products in any significant numbers.




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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:41:30 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Not quite the same situation is a bit of an understatement. ;) Buying a game then using a no-disc hack or something like that so you can play the game w/o needing the disc in the tray is not the same thing as pirating a copy of the game."

Not at all...there are hacks for games that require constant online validation (think the new Sim City) that people hacked so they could actually play it because the servers were down.

Business owners won't be pirating software...it's not worth it to them. I suspect that, if anything, they'll simply stay put...like they did with FCP7. If enough of them do that, Adobe's in for a world of hurt.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:54:48 pm

I worked at a broadcast station several years ago. We had hundreds of computers, and a graphics department with several people on staff - I was the Art Director. We had upwards of 120 computers in the facility, and a chief engineer who wanted the bottom line to look good to the owners.

We owned probably 10 licenses of Microsoft Office, which were installed on 120 computers, the same with Windows, and server software. When I would ask for updates to Photoshop, or After Effects, or the various plugins we used daily, I was told, "Get them any way you can. We're not paying for them." We were finally bought by a large publishing corporation, and they were appalled when they found out what had been going on for years. Yes, big corporations pirate software as well.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 9:56:29 pm

[Gary Huff] "Not at all...there are hacks for games that require constant online validation (think the new Sim City) that people hacked so they could actually play it because the servers were down.

Business owners won't be pirating software...it's not worth it to them. I suspect that, if anything, they'll simply stay put...like they did with FCP7. If enough of them do that, Adobe's in for a world of hurt."


I agree.

I wouldn't be surprised if a situation arose where a hack had to be used as a short term fix because something wonky happend w/the authentication handshake. I would be surprised if happend in any notable numbers though since you have 30 days + 1 week grace period to have the software connect to Adobe briefly to say 'hello'. If Adobe required a constant connection that's a whole other ball of wax.




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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 10:01:50 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I wouldn't be surprised if a situation arose where a hack had to be used as a short term fix because something wonky happend w/the authentication handshake"

What happens is there is something wrong with the license, a torrented copy is found to get the work done, and then it's forgotten and the torrented version is running years later.

I won't name names, but you would recognize the corporation.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 10:10:01 pm

Yeah, I knew some large companies too that pirated software (or at least used to) as a matter of course.


[Gary Huff] "What happens is there is something wrong with the license, a torrented copy is found to get the work done, and then it's forgotten and the torrented version is running years later."

No need to download a torrent copy though. You just perform a hack that makes the software think you are still 'inside' the 30 day activation window (probably the same hack that can be used on the 30-day trials now). Or, heck, you download the 30-day trial and use that. W/the monthly billing I'm sure people won't forget that they have CC and when they update their software the hack will probably get destroyed in the process and things 'under the hood' will go back to normal.




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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 10:12:18 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "No need to download a torrent copy though"

I was referring to a specific situation with currently boxed software, not to CC.

With the Creative Cloud, the obvious "hack" won't even touch the software. It will be a re-route of the IP address for the activation server that will point to a localized software that mimics the server and sends the "all clear" every single time it's polled. Which means you could install CC once, install the fake server, and never again connect to the Internet and the software would never expire.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 10:42:44 pm

[Gary Huff] "I was referring to a specific situation with currently boxed software, not to CC."

Ah, I'm with you now. I was talking about CC, not the boxed software, lol.

Internet - 1

clear communication - 0




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Richard Cardonna
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 1:45:42 am

Or they could keep a hack of the current version just in case something happens to the cloud thats not a cloud.

Richard


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Paul Jay
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 8:04:16 pm

When musicians received 50 cents of a 20 dollar cd.

Now that was theft!!

And now those big record labels are not needed anymore and they will sue a family for 100k because the son of the family downloaded an illegal copy of his favorite artist.

He did go to the concert by the way...


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Dominic Deacon
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 10:56:26 pm

I do the occassional large editing job now and then. I'm not a day in day out editor with a constant stream of income like a lot of you.

I started off with a pirated copy of FCP 5 (I think) which allowed me to edit my first feautre. It was a hobby job with no money coming in and very little going out. Shortly after I got a big commercial job and thought I'd spend $1500 of it investing in FCS3. That was a significant outlay for me but I thought I was investing in tools that would see me through years of work with regular updates/bug fixes/etc. Imagine my joy when a few months later Apple discounted the very expensive software I had just invested in.

So, screw Apple I says, and jump over to PC. Adobe is a safe bet for software. Apple might be more interested in toys but Adobe 100% relies on the sales of their software and thus it's a safe buy. Actually I edit in Edius now but the rest of the suite was what I was really interested in. Anyway, I invest in that and shortly after BOOM! CS is gone. There was no benefit to spending a couple grand on it at all. I'm in the same boat now as anyone coming on board a few months after I did.

Now as I say these were significant purchases for me. I expected the software to be updated and with me for the long haul. In my view I got screwed twice in quick succession by 2 mega companies. Software piracy is obviously not a good thing for the industry but I've got say I have zero sympathy for the likes of Apple and Adobe.


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 8, 2013 at 11:19:02 pm

[Dominic Deacon] "I started off with a pirated copy of FCP 5 (I think) which allowed me to edit my first feautre. It was a hobby job with no money coming in and very little going out."

Well, so you're nothing more than a common thief. Might as well be taking money out of a cash register.

Why aren't you in jail?


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Gav Bott
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 4:40:23 am

A position/argument on a downstream effect of piracy where actual physical loss can/could/might be found:
Tax able profits mitigated against the value of pirated product.

Company has a product that is successful in sales and also very heavily pirated. They are able to argue the level of piracy as a measurable $ amount and are allowed to mitigate their tax bill as a % of that amount as a loss.

The society that would have benefited from that tax amount now have less $'s.

The tin foil hat wearing members of teh internets have even proposed this as a reason why a company might allow/encourage piracy to improve their taxable situation.


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 5:15:47 am

[Gav Bott] "Company has a product that is successful in sales and also very heavily pirated. They are able to argue the level of piracy as a measurable $ amount and are allowed to mitigate their tax bill as a % of that amount as a loss."

You would have to be able to prove that, without the ability to pirate said product, that the end result would be a sale and not simply a pass on purchase of said product.


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Mark Suszko
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 3:56:52 pm

I think the question could be simplified to:

If someone does something you think is immoral, does that give you some kind of "permission" to also do immoral things? If you see, or believe, someone is stealing, does that excuse you from guilt for stealing something yourself?

I'm not convinced that trying to re-frame or re-define "stealing" as "harmless copying" has any moral weight. And more to the point, neither are the courts.

Two wrongs still don't add up to a right. And I think this holds true whether you are an atheist or not.
The only defense I can think of is if the "wrong" serves some greater good. Piracy on the excuse that the victims can afford the parasitism doesn't strike me as all that noble an argument.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 4:05:59 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Two wrongs still don't add up to a right. And I think this holds true whether you are an atheist or not.
The only defense I can think of is if the "wrong" serves some greater good. Piracy on the excuse that the victims can afford the parasitism doesn't strike me as all that noble an argument."


Bingo.

I don't know why religion/religious text was even brought in to this conversation.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 5:00:23 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't know why religion/religious text was even brought in to this conversation."

The reason it was brought in was because of the black and white way it was labled as theft, when the implications are much greyer. We can talk in moral certainties all we want.

However, the friend who had given me the discs had bought them. He considered those discs he had purchased as his. As far as he was concerned (and I am not saying he was right), terms of service agreements were just legal petty fogging -- mind you this was over a decade ago and thinking has shifted a lot since those times. He had paid good money for those discs and as far as he was concerned if he wanted to give copies to a friend, it was his right.

Now, I didn't even really consider the morality of it all. I just thought, "cool here is some software I can't afford right now to play with." So maybe it was a theft. I'm not sure. Neither he or I financially benefited from it. The ones who benefited were the software makers, because I purchased copies as soon as I could afford. I am not saying what I did was morally justified. I am just saying it was a common practice (and I suspect it still is)and asking, questions of lofty morality aside, how harmful a practice it really is. I think the only difference between me and many others (including many on this board) is I just fessed up to it.

Intellectual property is a tricky thing. If you make a mix cd of your favorite music and give it to your girl friend, does that make you and her a thief? You are definitely not authorized to do so. Are you robbing the artist of royalties due them.

It is not so black and white. I am not saying what I did was right or wrong. It was just a pretty common practice back then. Are all those folks who made tapes or CDs from albums thieves? Or those that taped movies off of HBO? If so, there are a lot of thieves in this ole world.

It is easy to pass moral judgement. And feel free to do so.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 5:15:51 pm

What you are describing is much different than what I would consider bootlegging software.

Bootlegging implies reselling illegal copies, and a totally different scenario that what you just subscribed, at least in my definition of bootlegging, but perhaps not the definition provided by a EULA or law.

I can walk around the corner and buy DVDs of movies that are still in the theaters. That is bootlegging to me.

Letting my buddy borrow a purchased DVD to watch and use is not what I would call bootlegging.

I am not trying to pass judgment on you, Clint. I enjoy the issues you bring up. Perhaps I should have asked for more clarity in your definition of bootlegging.

I also did not call you a thief, and if I did, I'd be a thief, too.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 5:25:23 pm

Maybe it was my terminology. I can be kind of clunky with language at times. The reason I called them bootlegs, is because my friend burned unauthorized copies and gave them to me. To my mind that is a bootleg.

I agree once exchange of money enters into the deal, it is a whole different ball of wax.

However, it is the monied pirating that is never going away. All the anti-piracy measures by software makers will only really prevent what I described above, not those mercenary enough figure a way to make a buck off the deal.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 5:29:50 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "However, it is the monied pirating that is never going away. All the anti-piracy measures by software makers will only really prevent what I described above, not those mercenary enough figure a way to make a buck off the deal."

And you can choose your role in it.


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 5:45:18 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Piracy on the excuse that the victims can afford the parasitism doesn't strike me as all that noble an argument."

Do you have a number on how much money, say, lead architect Randy Ubillos lost due to a pirated copy of Final Cut Pro 2?


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Mark Suszko
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 6:02:01 pm

I'll stand by my own quote. Saying parasitism is okay, "because the victim didn't feel it" doesn't change the leech into a butterfly. There are any number of crimes, high and low, where that defense has been tried and rejected. I think it's more the "criminal" trying to convince themselves they aren't guilty, or are somehow less guilty, rather than about convincing others. But rationalize it any way you want. I sleep just fine.


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 6:31:23 pm

[Mark Suszko] " Saying parasitism is okay, "because the victim didn't feel it" doesn't change the leech into a butterfly"

The question isn't, "Should copyright infringement be considered morally okay." The question was, "Is copyright infringement really that bad." I'd put emphasis on the really.


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Mark Suszko
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 6:54:51 pm

I don't know what age you an Clint are, but I suspect we are from different generations. I'm going to make the generalization that Millenials as a group tend to share the Chinese approach to copyright, patent, and IP law.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 7:14:54 pm

I suspect I am older than you. And in terms of copyright law...I think militant observation to the degree it exists is relatively new. When I was a younger, during the heyday of affordable audio tape machines, folks thought nothing of copying a friends albums to cassette or making mix tapes.

Technically such activities were illegal, but it was only when commercial ventures used such did the lawyers step in. (It was amazing how hardcore Mattel came down on "the Karen Carpenter Story" and the artist who was making the "trailer-trash" Barbie Dolls.)Also during the early days of consumer videotape, the big guys did introduce macrovision to prevent folks from making copies of the movies they purchased.

In a lot of ways, with the birth of disk software, folks didn't really give much thought to making copies for friends. I think it is in the last decade with the computer generation and the ease in which one can provide such things that folks started really looking at it.


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TImothy Auld
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 7:07:25 pm

Gary,

I am quite curious as to whether you have ever registered any copyrights.

Tim

Tim


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 7:40:17 pm

[TImothy Auld] "I am quite curious as to whether you have ever registered any copyrights."

And I am curious, Tim. Have you ever really worked hard on creating a project, only to sell it to someone who buries it. Make it so you can't show or release your own work.

I had a friend who made a movie in the 1990s, his first feature. He basically was bamboozled by a fast-talking distributor against future profits. Said distributor buried the film as a tax write off. My friend lost everything he and his investors has sunk into. To this day he can't show the film because he doesn't hold the copyright. His labor of love just sits on some film library shelf going nowhere.

I wonder how many green film-makers have suffered such a fate? Copyright can work against the artist sometimes, especially one who can't afford lawyers to insure he gets the best deal.


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David Lawrence
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 9, 2013 at 8:14:12 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Copyright can work against the artist sometimes, especially one who can't afford lawyers to insure he gets the best deal."

Well said. That's why this is not a black and white issue.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 10, 2013 at 3:34:28 am

[TImothy Auld] "I am quite curious as to whether you have ever registered any copyrights."

The answer is "not yet"...but I fail to see what your point is. Do you think I am incapable of understanding that I could have my work infringed upon if I haven't yet filed a copyright? Because I am very much aware of that. Do you believe the Gods of Copyright will curse my work forever if I'm not a hawk on copyright infringement issues? Not hardly.

I prefer to see things as they are, not take some hard stance on an issue that has many grey areas (how many hardliners here have probably unknowingly violated copyright?). Burying my head in the sand as to the reality of how copyright infringement can actually launch a career (Trey Parker and Matt Stone had their first South Park short copied and distributed on VHS, which ultimately landed them a show) and how, in the end, it's not really so bad within certain contexts.

And Randy Ubilious, for all his work has been infringed, probably has way more cash at his disposal than most of us here, so I don't think he's suffered from having a work that was infringed...if I could be so successful with my work being infringed upon, I'd take that in a heartbeat.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 11, 2013 at 2:47:29 pm

It seems to me there are two arguments going on here.

One, is it okay to use software you have never purchased. I would say no, for paying work. Yes, if it's a training exercise. Frankly, the 30 day window just doesn't work for me. I end up using it for a couple hours, then get busy. The next time I sit down with the software, the 30 day window has expired. Now, FCP X was cheap enough I didn't sweat purchasing it. And the one advantage of the CC is you're not in for $2000 by the time you've really run it through its paces.

Two, is it okay to use a pirated copy or break the EULA when the software developer requires you to jump through onerous hoops to use their software. In this case I would say, yes.

There is no equivalent for the EULA for consumers. Essentially, consumers really have no way to demand rights. I think the notion of tying the licensing to a particular computer is wrong. You bought the software, the computer did not. You should be able to use it no matter where you are. You should be able to verify use on any computer with a simple log-in, so long as two (or other number) are not being used concurrently. If their server fails to respond it lets you open the program.

Do I like the CC licensing? Not really. But, I don't think it would prevent me from going with Premiere if I chose to. I chose not to for other reasons. I do like Apple's licensing much better. It offers me enough flexibility and 5 copies I can work with.



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Gary Huff
Re: Is bootlegging really so bad?
on May 11, 2013 at 4:15:26 pm

[Brett Sherman] "Do I like the CC licensing? Not really. But, I don't think it would prevent me from going with Premiere if I chose to. I chose not to for other reasons. I do like Apple's licensing much better. It offers me enough flexibility and 5 copies I can work with."

I like having two copies, but I could see three being a bit easier for me, though I doubt I'd ever run more than two at once, so if the deactivation/activation process for that becomes streamlined enough that you don't have to think twice about it, then it wouldn't be a problem for me. You absolutely need to be able to run it on two computers at once for the whole "render while continue working on another machine" deal.


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