FORUMS: list search recent posts

Adobe CC. The non hysterical response

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Andy Field
Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 2:24:08 am

Walter Biscardi with a reasoned clear headed assessment

http://walterbiscardi.com/what-adobe-creative-cloud-is-really-all-about/


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 3:28:10 am

[Andy Field] "Walter Biscardi with a reasoned clear headed assessment "

Well reasoned, but I respectfully disagree with this one line:

[Walter Biscardi] "If you’re not happy, then please please, find something else and move on."

I disagree. There are important digital rights issues at play here. Now more than ever, Adobe needs to hear from customers like myself who value the security of perpetual licensing.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 4:14:32 am

It's weird when someone finds a piece of software that works for their business and fits their needs, the discussion then becomes "well reasoned" even if the situation might not work for everybody.


Return to posts index


Sandeep Sajeev
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 5:21:46 am

It isn't a monthly subscription globally. It has always been annual here in India and other parts of the world and I doubt that will change.

What that post doesn't mention at all is that updates usually tend to break something. If this is an automatic process then how many editors are comfortable upgrading in the middle of a job?

And Tech Support according to a poster in the Premiere Pro is an 800 number in India. I live and work here now, and have actual experience with this...Good luck with that. Not everyone can call Adobe/Blackmagic/Autodesk and speak to someone they have a personal relationship with.

I like the potential offered by Mission Control - but the site is short on specifics at the moment. If it has Basecamp like functionality then that is proper innovation.

[Walter] I guess all of us running businesses should just stop being so greedy, invoicing our clients every month after we complete jobs.

In my market, we bill 50% upfront and the balance is due 30 days after delivery. This is the norm for all agency driven work. I'd be laughed out of the room if I walked in and said hey put me on a retainer so I can count on a steady cash flow.

It'll also be interesting to see just how innovative a company with a massive subscriber base locked into it's ecosystem continues to be. There are plenty of examples of this going bad. What makes Adobe different? The fact that a couple of guys who work there pop on forums and social media telling us that they're listening to Pro-users? Is that all it takes?

For the longest time I was stuck with my cell phone service provider, as changing providers meant a change in numbers. Once the law dropped that you could change providers and keep your existing number, there was a dramatic improvement on the part of the provider. So there are benefits to not being locked into something.

Or CC could be great, and this is all just noise. We'll know once the first problems arise.

Also a quick note Re: Autodesk switching over to this model - they have enough problems trying to provide consistent performance as it is. It would be foolish of them to even consider this type of a model until they sort out all the issues that those who've purchased Smoke 2013 are having with basic things like export.

Apple doesn't need a monthly check from us - they've been giving away updates for free, and guess what, the software has improved significantly. Why? Because people were pissed and had a choice.


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 5:35:13 am

[Sandeep Sajeev] " If this is an automatic process then how many editors are comfortable upgrading in the middle of a job?"

You have complete control over this. And, it is program by program. So, if you have a deadline next week, you can wait.

[Sandeep Sajeev] "What makes Adobe different? The fact that a couple of guys who work there pop on forums and social media telling us that they're listening to Pro-users? Is that all it takes?"

I understand the anger and anxiety, but as far as I'm concerned, having watched Premiere develop from 5. to Cloud, I feel very comfortable saying that they have been extremely diligent in listening to both complaints and ideas and have worked quite hard to deliver what I consider to be a very professional set of tools. Just because you don't like the direction they've taken with Cloud--which I understand--is it really fair to accuse them of this kind of hypocrisy?


[Sandeep Sajeev] "Apple doesn't need a monthly check from us - they've been giving away updates for free, and guess what, the software has improved significantly. Why? Because people were pissed and had a choice.
"


Quite true.


Return to posts index

Sandeep Sajeev
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 5:54:59 am

[Chris Harlan] "You have complete control over this. And, it is program by program. So, if you have a deadline next week, you can wait."

This is good and sensible.


[Chris Harlan] "I understand the anger and anxiety, but as far as I'm concerned, having watched Premiere develop from 5. to Cloud, I feel very comfortable saying that they have been extremely diligent in listening to both complaints and ideas and have worked quite hard to deliver what I consider to be a very professional set of tools. Just because you don't like the direction they've taken with Cloud--which I understand--is it really fair to accuse them of this kind of hypocrisy?"

I'm not angry or anxious. It is one thing to listen to user feedback on features, most companies do this. There is no doubting the quality of the tool-set. What I don't buy for a second is the spin that Adobe is any different from the other corporations that provide software for my business. We complain about Apple and how they seem to do whatever they want, drop into the Autodesk Smoke forum on The Area and you'll find pissed off Smoke Ops accusing Autodesk of throwing them overboard for new money while crippling the old feature-set. There will always be someone who's disappointed by something. I'm not, in this case anyway, because I was expecting this to happen.

That is why it's important we keep our options open, and stay fluid, in my opinion, of course.

And when you've got Adobe reps disliking posts that are critical, well that just seems bush league to me.


Return to posts index


Chris Harlan
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 6:32:42 am

[Sandeep Sajeev] "'m not angry or anxious."

My apologies. I didn't mean this to sound personal. I meant the general tenor of today's discussion.

[Sandeep Sajeev] "There will always be someone who's disappointed by something. I'm not, in this case anyway, because I was expecting this to happen."

I was hoping it wasn't going to, but feared that it was. And, I am a little disappointed, though, I've made my peace with it. I'm already on CC, so it doesn't really affect me personally, but I don't like what it might do to wider adoption of Premiere CC, which I like.


[Sandeep Sajeev] "And when you've got Adobe reps disliking posts that are critical, well that just seems bush league to me.
"


That's a little crude, at least not without a pointed rebuttal or explanation.


Return to posts index

Sandeep Sajeev
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 6:39:10 am

[Chris Harlan] "My apologies. I didn't mean this to sound personal. I meant the general tenor of today's discussion."

Oh I didn't take it as such. Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't coming at this emotionally.


Return to posts index

Greg Andonian
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 6:20:40 am

[Chris Harlan] I understand the anger and anxiety, but as far as I'm concerned, having watched Premiere develop from 5. to Cloud, I feel very comfortable saying that they have been extremely diligent in listening to both complaints and ideas and have worked quite hard to deliver what I consider to be a very professional set of tools. Just because you don't like the direction they've taken with Cloud--which I understand--is it really fair to accuse them of this kind of hypocrisy?

With recent history in mind, I totally agree. But looking ahead to the future, I think he does have a point. Someone in another thread pointed out that Adobe won't have as much incentive to make significant improvements to their software when they do an upgrade, since everyone will be paying them whether they download the newest version or not. The days of Adobe having to convince people to upgrade every time instead of skipping some versions will be over.

I wish Macromedia was still around to keep Adobe on their toes...

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


Return to posts index


Chris Harlan
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 6:55:01 am

[Greg Andonian] "But looking ahead to the future, I think he does have a point. Someone in another thread pointed out that Adobe won't have as much incentive to make significant improvements to their software when they do an upgrade, since everyone will be paying them whether they download the newest version or not. The days of Adobe having to convince people to upgrade every time instead of skipping some versions will be over. "

For sure. They might even become as anemic as Avid's last upgrade. I DO recognize all that, but its not like we get a vote, other than with our feet. I'm generally happy about my decision, after Legacy booted me, to stay a NLE polygamist.


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 7:20:57 am

I think Adobe will still have plenty of reason to improve their software, at least on the NLE side because if they don't people will move to Avid, FCPX or possibly even Lightworks (optimistic, I know). It's not like we are talking about back in the day when Avids were $60k/seat. *That* was an investment. Changing your workflow and getting up to speed on a new NLE are bigger hurdles than the $50/mo commitment for CC, IMO.




Return to posts index

Bernard Newnham
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 8:33:09 am

Must be time to take another look at Edius -
http://www.grassvalley.com/products/edius_pro_6.5

I'd abandoned it in favour of PPro, but next time I update I won't be buying anyone's subscription.

Bernie


Return to posts index


Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 9:30:25 am

Also what about hardware? Being constantly tied up to a subscription model will make you have newer versions, which demands newer hardware, and it doesn't seem they offer version history for download.


Return to posts index

Alex Hawkins
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 12:31:58 pm

I work for a major govt dept so as you can imagine, leasing software is attractive to us. We don't need to make any huge capital outlays and wait for software to arrive in boxes. The monthly fee for every piece of software that Adobe make is so low as to be barely recognisable on the monthly balance sheet.

We've been on the Cloud for a year now and we love it. Never had any hassles. Halfway through the year one of our guys switched from an ageing Mac Pro to a Z820 and was back working the same morning on the same AE project. Couldn't have done that if he'd had the boxed Mac version of CS6.

For us it's a no brainer. Can't wait for June 17th.

Alex Hawkins
Canberra, Australia


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 3:19:39 pm

[Gustavo Bermudas] "Also what about hardware? Being constantly tied up to a subscription model will make you have newer versions, which demands newer hardware, and it doesn't seem they offer version history for download."

Adobe alerts you to when updates are available but it's up to you to download and install them. There's no auto updating.




Return to posts index


Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 6:39:27 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Adobe alerts you to when updates are available but it's up to you to download and install them. There's no auto updating."

I wasn't referring to that, I currently have a cloud subscription that I'm stopping before I hit the new renewal rate, so I'm a bit familiar with how it works, but what I noticed is that nobody addressed the fact that let's say if a student got an old computer and wants to download photoshop or after effects to learn it, he's going to be downloading the newest version and not an old one he can learn, thus forcing the customers to always be updating your hardware. ANd also let's say you upgraded to a new version and realized that you require a new video card, can you roll back?


Return to posts index

Todd Kopriva
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 6:58:14 pm

> let's say if a student got an old computer and wants to download photoshop or after effects to learn it, he's going to be downloading the newest version and not an old one he can learn, thus forcing the customers to always be updating your hardware. ANd also let's say you upgraded to a new version and realized that you require a new video card, can you roll back?


Older versions will continue to be available for download from Creative Cloud even after newer versions are released. We are currently committed to having at least five versions available (e.g., when After Effects 15.0 comes out, you'll still be able to download After Effects 11.0).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Return to posts index

Craig Sommerer
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 8, 2013 at 2:03:48 am

Why would anyone want to keep paying indefinitely for old versions of software?

I'm one of the folks Adobe is trying to get rid of, those that upgrade their CS versions every other version or so. $'s are $'s, no matter where they come from and renting of these tools seems wrong, and for many of us it makes no fiscal sense.

I want to own the software license, not rent it. I highly doubt I'll be a CC subscriber and as a Lightroom, Photoshop, AE and occasional Illustrator user, guess I'll have to find a copy of CS6 and keep it viable as long as I can.



Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 8, 2013 at 2:17:22 am

[Craig Sommerer] "I want to own the software license, not rent it. I highly doubt I'll be a CC subscriber and as a Lightroom, Photoshop, AE and occasional Illustrator user, guess I'll have to find a copy of CS6 and keep it viable as long as I can."

From the Creative Cloud FAQ [link]:
For how long will Adobe continue to sell Creative Suite 6?

We plan to sell Creative Suite 6 for use on supported platforms indefinitely.


Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Craig Sommerer
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 8, 2013 at 1:41:45 pm

Yes, Walter, I've read through those FAQ's many times now, but thanks anyway.

My question is why anyone would believe a corporation that "is not your friend" and I believe I read somewhere in the Cow interwebz, from Adobe reps, previous to NAB that Creative Suite 7 would exist alongside the CC and be available for purchase.

I'll go back to the sidelines now. I'm a very infrequent poster on the Cow and it's fun reading the same well known names who drink any flavor of KoolAid to declare it the best ever and best for everyone, only to vomit it later, renounce that flavor while they consume a different flavor and declare that flavor of KoolAid the best ever.



Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 1:21:46 pm

I'm hoping my CS5 Master Collection goes up in value on eBay now!


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 2:30:43 pm

[Sandeep Sajeev] "And Tech Support according to a poster in the Premiere Pro is an 800 number in India. I live and work here now, and have actual experience with this...Good luck with that. Not everyone can call Adobe/Blackmagic/Autodesk and speak to someone they have a personal relationship with."

I have to say, picking up the phone and calling Adobe support is a serious crap shoot.

I often have to call multiple times as I get disconnected during the routing, and when I do finally get through, I get connected to a completely different department. I don't need the Adobe Acrobat support when my After Effects projects just got killed due to a consolidation error (true story).

[Sandeep Sajeev] "It'll also be interesting to see just how innovative a company with a massive subscriber base locked into it's ecosystem continues to be. There are plenty of examples of this going bad. What makes Adobe different? The fact that a couple of guys who work there pop on forums and social media telling us that they're listening to Pro-users? Is that all it takes?

For the longest time I was stuck with my cell phone service provider, as changing providers meant a change in numbers. Once the law dropped that you could change providers and keep your existing number, there was a dramatic improvement on the part of the provider. So there are benefits to not being locked into something."


I can't imagine that Adobe will quit innovating now. Typical smart phone cell contracts lock you n for a couple of years (at least here in the states), Adobe will "lock you in" for 30 days at the minimum. You also get a 30 day grace period of trial, so really you can check the software out for 60 days for the price of 30.

If Adobe quits putting out quality product, people will quit giving up their money and head somewhere else. There are options these days, not a ton of them, but there are options.

Also, let's face it, as good as Adobe products can be, some of them still need a lot of work. If the Cloud means they can do this faster, than that might be a good thing for users.

The down side is all of the things you mention, but I just can't see how Adobe can quit producing, at least for now.

[Sandeep Sajeev] "Apple doesn't need a monthly check from us - they've been giving away updates for free, and guess what, the software has improved significantly. Why? Because people were pissed and had a choice."

Apple can also afford it. Not many companies can afford to do what Apple is doing, but Apple is also a rather diverse company in terms of potential revenue streams.


Return to posts index

Todd Kopriva
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 3:40:22 pm

It seems that there's an important detail that has been missed:

Creative Cloud subscribers can choose which version(s) of the applications to download and install, and older versions will continue to be available even after the newer ones are released. There is no automatic or forced updating.

Our current plan is to make up to five major versions available at once, but we may expand that when the time comes if there is much demand.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Return to posts index

Clint Wardlow
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 4:08:04 pm

I think an issue that is missed here is how this affects the smaller independent artist. Someone that doesn't see a big return on what they create. In some ways it helps, in other ways it is a scary proposition. I know most on COW make their bread and butter off of video editing and or permutations of such. If you want to stick with Adobe, the subscription is just going to be the cost of doing business.

Whereas independent artists such as myself, this subscription mode is a bit daunting. Tying yourself to a $50.00 month subscription is scary. The buy in is cheaper. However, I have found that, while purchasing a license can be pricey, it is often very doable after a big paycheck for some project that went over well. And once you have that license, you are good to go until you want to upgrade.

If one falls on hard times and can no longer pony up the monthly fee, they lose access to all projects created using the cloud. It is true you can purchase, at a higher price, cloud services month by month as needed. But, who really wants to work this way? Having the software around to use at one's leisure is a great way to really learn it.

I am sure the pros and businesses will continue with Adobe because the cost is a small part of doing their job. It is the smaller artists, the ones to whom a $50.00 month payment is a big bite, who may have to look for alternatives. I am pretty sure Adobe is willing to let such folks go, because the perception of these smaller guys is they are the ones going with bootlegs to save a few bucks and their loss won't affect Adobe's bottom line.

I am curious to see how this plays out.


Return to posts index

Bernard Newnham
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 4:10:31 pm

I'm currently working on three projects -

1) A website re-write in html 5, using Edge Animation and Photoshop (a freebie job for a flying club)
2) A scheduling system/front end for CasparCg initially for the university where I work, using Flash Professional and Photoshop.
3) A promo piece for the uni, using PPro, AE and Photoshop.

When these are done, I may not use an Adobe product for months. Doesn't matter - the CS6 Creative Suite can sit on the computer doing nothing till I need it again.

Since Todd is writing in this thread, perhaps he can give me a cost effective way of upgrading when the time comes. I know that a huge number of occasional users would like to know the answer.

Bernie


Return to posts index

Dennis Radeke
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 7:44:44 pm

[Bernard Newnham] "Since Todd is writing in this thread, perhaps he can give me a cost effective way of upgrading when the time comes. I know that a huge number of occasional users would like to know the answer."

You can subscribe for a single month and come back when you have another job. You are not required to join for a year.

A lot of information can be found here: Creative Cloud FAQ

Dennis - Adobe guy


Return to posts index

Mike Jackson
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 8:08:55 pm

I don't post often, but I just have to weigh in here too. Not a day has gone by in the last 15 years that I haven't used some Adobe product, and I have a lot of the same concerns as others here. With the downturn in the industry in Vancouver, I've had more than one month in the last couple of years when I would NOT have been able to make a $50 payment. I buy my software and hardware upgrades when a big job comes along, with a nice fat paycheck.

But my other two issues are:

VERSIONING - Sometimes something just stops working in an upgrade, and it's not uncommon for me to have to go back to an older version of AE to get something done. Keep in mind that plug-ins get out-dated too, and more frequent updates might make it a lot harder (and/or more expensive) to keep your plug-ins functional and up to date. And I sure wouldn't like to have to face the monthly bills if ALL my software goes this route. Yowch.

CONTENT OWNERSHIP - I am *incredibly* unhappy with the idea that Adobe can lock me out of my old projects unless I cough up some dough. That's just not cool. As unlikely as it may seem right now, I need to know that if Adobe goes belly-up, or pulls a Final Cut X and changes the software to something I don't want to use anymore, I can still access my back catalogue of projects, no strings attached. That's a deal-breaker for me.

I'll throw out an idea though Dennis - that second issue could be solved for me if after paying for an entire year (or even 2) of Creative Cloud, I got permanent usage of whatever version I'm currently on. Make it rent-to-own, and I'm onboard.



Return to posts index

Todd Kopriva
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 8:17:47 pm

> Sometimes something just stops working in an upgrade, and it's not uncommon for me to have to go back to an older version of AE to get something done


You can still do that. In fact, it's easier, since we are making all versions from CS6 onward available for download through the Creative Cloud service (at least five major versions) so that you'll be able to choose which version to download and install at any time.

> Keep in mind that plug-ins get out-dated too, and more frequent updates might make it a lot harder (and/or more expensive) to keep your plug-ins functional and up to date.


The update frequency does not have any new impact on your third-party plug-ins. For After Effects and Premiere Pro, the plug-ins only need to be updated when there are changes in the API or other major changes, which shouldn't change any more frequently now than they have in the past.

For example, for Premiere Pro, you needed to get new plug-ins from CS4 to CS5 because of the 64-bit port. There won't be major changes like that with every feature-bearing update.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Return to posts index

Mike Jackson
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 8:37:07 pm

Cool, good to know. As someone who's running a business, it's a delicate balance for what makes a good update frequency - I want things to keep improving and adapt to changing technologies, but a certain level of stability is *also* mandatory.

So, solve the problem with access to old projects, using software that I will have effectively already paid money for, and I can happily roll with the rest. ;)

Unless every other company adopts this model too, and suddenly I'm facing a $1000 monthly bill just to keep working...



Return to posts index

Bernard Newnham
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 9:04:32 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "[Bernard Newnham] "Since Todd is writing in this thread, perhaps he can give me a cost effective way of upgrading when the time comes. I know that a huge number of occasional users would like to know the answer."

You can subscribe for a single month and come back when you have another job. You are not required to join for a year.

A lot of information can be found here: Creative Cloud FAQ"


Thanks Dennis, I appreciate the reply - though I rather think that CS6 is going to last me longer than I originally thought. And there I was going around recommending PPro as the FCP replacement. I wonder if Grass Valley are planning on going cloudy?

Bernie


Return to posts index

Paul Neumann
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 6:06:52 pm

Starting with CS6 apps? Well, there you go.


Return to posts index

Tom Sefton
Re: Adobe CC. The non hysterical response
on May 7, 2013 at 7:54:58 pm

The CC costs less than my gym membership. For the last 5 years we have spent at least £700 per year on upgrading master collection. I can only see good things from this from our perspective.

I will hang on to our CS6 disks though....


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]