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AE drives the NLE decision

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Oliver Peters
AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 12:36:05 am

I edit and do training from time to time at broadcast facilities. What I've seen has been FCP in the commercial/promo department and Avid in news. The general flow I've seen is to cut a base layer in the NLE of choice and then embellish that in After Effects. Usually some shared storage is involved and when that's FCP, it's never Unity.

In this environment, FCP X simply is an extremely poor fit. For example, when you have to bounce between half a dozen different existing and/or new commercials/promos on a given day, FCP X simply can't compete with the flexibility of FCP 7 and Premiere Pro. In the workflow that I see, AE is almost more important than the NLE used. IMHO, the best options for the broadcast commercial/promo departments are Creative Suite, Avid+AE or Smoke. Smoke has a steep learning curve and more people know AE than Smoke. Avid+AE is a bit cumbersome, so going CS becomes a no-brainer. Even better if you take advantage of Audition, Photoshop and SpeedGrade or want a mix with PCs.

Probably the real fault here is less FCP X and more the fact that Motion was never seriously pushed to compete with AE. I don't see this changing. FCP X will likely get used in broadcast islands, but I really don't see it as a viable core application in most TV stations or networks that are heavily invested in After Effects.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 1:57:21 am

[Oliver Peters] "FCP X will likely get used in broadcast islands, but I really don't see it as a viable core application in most TV stations or networks that are heavily invested in After Effects."

I know it sounds crazy for a lot of people here to confront the scope of change out there - but I have to tell you that the single most transformative trend I've recently witnesses as the father of a post teenager (he's 20) and his peer group - is that a tremendous number of his friends of both sexes who are now establishing their first homes and apartments and they don't even HAVE television sets at all.

I mean not even a SINGLE set capable of receiving a broadcast or cable signal.

It's weird. But that's what's happening in my area. Anyone else with insight into the college age demo seeing anything similar?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 2:09:25 am

[Bill Davis] "I mean not even a SINGLE set capable of receiving a broadcast or cable signal. It's weird. But that's what's happening in my area. Anyone else with insight into the college age demo seeing anything similar?"

My son is a 26 year old graduate assistant at the University of Connecticut with 2 TVs, a 42" flat screen and an older 20 inch tube set. He has never been in a situation, on campus or off, that he hasn't had a TV. If you play video games or watch sports they seem to be useful.

Bill, you've been predicting the imminent demise of broadcast since this forum started and I realize that nothing, including the overwhelming evidence of the increase in size of broadcast audiences will ever sway you. Sometimes, i guess, the facts are not enough.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Michael Hadley
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 2:15:04 am

My son is 21--has not had a TV or broadcast hookup in 3 years. All his programming comes via the inter webs.

Don't what the demographic stats are but broadcast TV is on the wane. The good news for video producers, editors, writers, crew--there are now more outlets and opportunities than ever before. That said, the pricing and pay have come down as well.


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Bill Davis
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 2:56:27 am

[Herb Sevush] "Bill, you've been predicting the imminent demise of broadcast since this forum started and I realize that nothing, including the overwhelming evidence of the increase in size of broadcast audiences will ever sway you. Sometimes, i guess, the facts are not enough.
"


Uh, huh?

Show me an example of where I've EVER argued that broadcast is in imminant peril? Don't PROJECT what you think I've said here, because I know I haven't said that because I don't believe that. Remember, I've worked in and around broadcast as long as you have. When I owned an ad agency, I lived and died by Arbitron and Neilson numbers like everyone else. So I know exactly what the long term trends in viewership are. The pie (Base Cume) is getting a larger as the population grows - offset by a diminution of the share that broadcast TV gets in the face of so many alternative entertainment and information choices. But I agree it's still a major entertainment medium. But that doesn't mean that there aren't major changes effecting it.

Your "increase in the overall size of the broadcast audience" is smoke and mirrors. It's real, but only relevant to someone like Budweiser who can pay to try to reach everybody with traditional howitizer style advertising. Most advertisers can't do that with enough practical reach and frequency to drive sustainable results.

Want proof? Go visit any of your local TV stations and ask the sales manager the size of the sales staff this year compared to 10 years ago. Case closed.

Broadcast TV will be relevant for a long time. But it's audience is getting older and greyer and is NOT being refreshed at the rate it used to be.

Just think about it. Tell me about the big maquee shows for the coveted 18-34 demo? (or better yet, the 18-24 sub-demo? I'll tell you what my kid watches when he's home. He watches Law and Order and CSI and NCIS and Auction shows and all the other general purpose TV syndication stuff that everyone else watches. And he doesn't watch ANY of them as "appointment TV." He sees what's on and watches it to kill time. And while he watches it, he simultanesoudly surfs the net on his laptop and texts on his phone. He doesn't even HAVE a favorite show - it's whatever is on when he wants to consume some TV. And I'm telling you that TV has done such an abysmally poor job of branding TV as "thing that's important" to him and his friends, that they all can literally take it or leave it.

He'll go out of his way to see a particular movie, he will check daily with his friends and favored web destinations and his facebook profile - but he will NOT go out of his way to watch a TV show. Period.

Maybe he'll develop those loyalties over time - but maybe not. And if not, TV has a big problem ahead of itself. Particularly in the modern model where the Cable TV Company is convinced that those 200 channels of 80% re-hashed older content is worth $100 a month ($1200 a year!) diverted from your hard work to a monopoly cable operator.

In the long run, good luck with that.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Alex Hawkins
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 3:44:38 am

I have a daughter who's 19 and she's not really into sports. She still lives at home (mostly) and never watches tv.

That is to say she watches tv programs, downloaded onto her ipad mini. But as far as flicking on the set to veg out. Nada.

My 17 and 15 year olds (a girl and a boy) do not sit and watch tv either. Ever.

I reckon that even in the age difference from Herb's son, 26, to my kids, there is a large demographic shift. And I know it is rare but I find myself siding with Bill here and find it difficult to see how broadcast tv will still be a viable business - under its own steam - within a generation.

But I could be wrong . . .

Alex Hawkins
Canberra, Australia


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Julian Bowman
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 6:51:05 am

The things they watch that are streamed to iPads, laptops etc. Are they clips of pussy cats and yodelling babies or of broadcast TV shows watched through an alternative medium? My money will be on the former.

Kids/adults with console games will always have TVs. Given a choice of watching a film on a TV or an iPad the TV offers the better experience.

TVs are social. Families can gather around one and interact around what is on. iPads and laptops are individual.

I had one friend, ever, who never had a TV. Kids over here love their console games or wanting to watch stuff on decent sized screens. The portability of smaller devices and the ability for the, to enable solo engagement with TV shows definitely has a place, but given unlimited funds do you think all young people would forgo a 42" plasma in exchange for an iPad? I don't. Perhaps funds are an important element of BIll's observations. Ad perhaps teenagers desires to be away from they parents and/or siblings is a part of Alex's.

Broadcast products companies are going to struggle in terms of obtaining the ludicrous sums of money needed to make high quality TV shows, especially as mostly advertising is ignored and therefore waning in importance and one would assume the ability to generate revenue, but also because most new alternative streams of consumption generate poor financial return (Net Flix, YouTube, P2P bit torrent.... The Spotify model is not a long term solution), but people will NOT stop wanting what these big production companies deliver.

YouTube and FCPX may have theoretically 'democratised' TV production and consumption, but most of the DIY stuff it has enabled it still shit and not worth watching and Broadcast stuff beats it hands down.

So sure, TV is being consumed differently, but what is being consumed isn't changing in the same way. but Bill, don't let points outside your limited view get in the way of your rather zealous promotion of apple edited YouTube shite being the future of televisual production/consumption, because then your world may collapse around you and no one with buy your self published e-book/zine or invite you to report an NAB and then that will give you even more time to swan around these forums annoying people.



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Alex Hawkins
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 7:42:03 am

[Julian Bowman] "The things they watch that are streamed to iPads, laptops etc. Are they clips of pussy cats and yodelling babies or of broadcast TV shows watched through an alternative medium? My money will be on the former."

My daughter watches "broadcast tv" programs, if that's what you want to call them. Homeland, Walking Dead, Desperate Housewives etc.

[Julian Bowman] "Kids/adults with console games will always have TVs. Given a choice of watching a film on a TV or an iPad the TV offers the better experience."

Yes that's true, but as far as using them to sit down to watch a particular broadcast program at a particular time. Never.

[Julian Bowman] "but given unlimited funds do you think all young people would forgo a 42" plasma in exchange for an iPad? I don't."

Not all, but probably most, yes.

[Julian Bowman] "TVs are social. Families can gather around one and interact around what is on."

Sad to say but this scenario seems about as common as a grown up at a Justin Bieber concert. . .

. . . from all the people I speak to, anyway.

[Julian Bowman] "So sure, TV is being consumed differently, but what is being consumed isn't changing in the same way"

Agreed. So extrapolating that out, where do the free to air networks get their bucks in a generations time?

[Julian Bowman] "Bill, don't let points outside your limited view get in the way of your rather zealous promotion of apple edited YouTube shite being the future of televisual production/consumption, because then your world may collapse around you and no one with buy your self published e-book/zine or invite you to report an NAB and then that will give you even more time to swan around these forums annoying people."

Funny. . .

. . . But a bit unnecessarily cruel.

Alex Hawkins
Canberra, Australia


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Bill Davis
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 5:38:08 pm

[Alex Hawkins] ". . . But a bit unnecessarily cruel."

Cruel? Nah.

In order to be cruel, you've got to possess and wield the power to make your target feel emotionally vulnerable and diminished.

Not the case here.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Richard Herd
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 2:38:43 pm

My 3.5 year old twin daughters hate television because of the ad breaks. They'll use my iPad and watch Netflix cartoons or watch the "big tv," which is Apple TV hooked up to Netflix and Hulu. The actual broadcast TV is rabbit ears, for football, The Masters, and US Open. I can watch the A's on mlb.com via appleTV.


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tony west
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 5:54:05 am

When I started in TV in the 80's sports was maybe 30 percent of my work. Now it's maybe 75

There is definitely a split between sports fans and non.

Here is St. Louis our Cardinal ratings crush the competition. This is a big sports town.

Tomorrow we have "6" broadcast sports feeds coming out of our city, 4 with playoff hockey and two at Busch stadium for Cards.


We got to fly in people from around the country to cover all the spots.

It drives the economy big time. My cousin works for a major grocer here in town and the sales go through the roof because of all the folks having people over to watch the games.


sports bars and such.

I have been to Super Bowl parties and Oscar parties but never to a web party : )


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Christian Schumacher
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 2:28:40 am

What's up with the Pro Apps package as whole? It is disjointed, even awkward. Despite FCPX being fast updated, there seems to be a widening gap developing there, specially when compared to Adobe's efforts. I know it is priced/targeted differently, but come on, Apple! You should be offering better things than an old 32 bit Compressor plus no A/V round tripping within their own set of apps. FCPX alone won't cut it. Stop talking the talk already.


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Andrew Richards
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 1:22:42 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "You should be offering better things than an old 32 bit Compressor"

The 32-bit Compressor.app is just the GUI. When you submit a job, multiple 64-bit parallel qmaster processes kick off in the background and carry out the real work.

Best,
Andy


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Christian Schumacher
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 2:34:14 pm

[Andrew Richards] "The 32-bit Compressor.app is just the GUI. When you submit a job, multiple 64-bit parallel qmaster processes kick off in the background and carry out the real work."

Sweet! That's way better than I thought it was. Thanks for the clarification, Andrew. I wonder how all this will progress overtime re: the handling of 64bit (and 32bit) quicktime codecs with the new AV foundation, as we advance on OS X. A major overhaul is still warranted on the workflow issue, I think. Apple can do better in the Pro Apps department, namely FCP X, Motion, Compressor, Aperture and Logic all working together in tandem. In other words, to improve integration amongst them should be top priority.


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Andrew Richards
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 3:25:02 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "Apple can do better in the Pro Apps department, namely FCP X, Motion, Compressor, Aperture and Logic all working together in tandem. "

I wholeheartedly agree. My personal top pie-in-the-sky feature request is some kind of Event or even Project sharing for shared storage. Round-tripping is probably more compelling to more FCPX users though.

As WWDC approaches, I'm once again interested in what legacy stuff that apps like FCP Legend and QuickTime Pro 7 (like the old QuickTime APIs that have been on deprecated since Snow Leopard) will be outright dropped from OS X in 10.9.

Best,
Andy


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Michael W. Towe
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 2:37:37 am

I would have to say I agree with you Oliver. I do a bit of work for the promo folks at the local NCB station and this is exactly what they did. They were an FCP7 shop but are now doing it all in Adobe. A lot of the work requires heavy use of AE and that was a driver in the decision to make the mover to where they did. So far I have mixed feelings about Premier, to be honest X has become my editor of choice, but premier is firmly now entrenched in my shop as well. I think the days of just owning one edit system are gone.

Michael W. Towe
President M2 Digital Post
http://www.m2digitalpost.com


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Greg Andonian
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 4:04:15 am

[Michael W. Towe] So far I have mixed feelings about Premiere

CS6 is still very rough around the edges, but the new version that's about to drop looks very solid. There are improvements and refinements throughout, and the efficiency of the overall workflow is an order of magnitude better.

I could imagine the new Premiere being very attractive to the AE crowd. From what I can tell, it's basically FCP 7 with tight AE integration.

I'm also curious to see what the Avid folks think of the next version. If nothing else, I could see it making a great addition to their workflow. The AAF importer has been re-built by Automatic Duck, and of course there's the DNxHD stuff built in. With those two upgrades, I imagine hopping between Avid and Premiere should be pretty smooth- and then they have AE right next door, and can quickly bring compositions into Premiere to see them in the context of the entire edit...

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Michael W. Towe
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 3:31:37 pm

Hey Greg,

Again I have to agree. I was lucky enough to attend the San Diego Premier User Group last month and it featured a speaker from Adobe to discuss the changes to the next version. I was very happy to see that they are adding in a lot of small features that will speed up the workflow. Simple things like making the icon for a transition larger so I don't have to zoom in to select it. Those types if simple workflow fixes might not be the sexy stuff, but they make my life a hell of a lot easier. At the meeting I happened to be sitting next to an editor friend of mine who is also a long time Avid and FCP Classic guy and we both found it amusing that this release seems to be taking things that come directly from the Avid and FCP Classic world and implementing them.

It's apparent that Adobe is listening to the customer base and implementing their requests, and that is a good thing. As I said in a previous post Adobe is now firmly entrenched in my workflow so I m happy to see the changes they are implementing, and the attention to the customer base that they are practicing.

Michael W. Towe
President M2 Digital Post
http://www.m2digitalpost.com


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Greg Andonian
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 7:38:46 pm

[Michael W. Towe] I was lucky enough to attend the San Diego Premier User Group last month and it featured a speaker from Adobe to discuss the changes to the next version.

I was at that same meeting. That demo was really something, wasn't it?

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Chris Jacek
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 3:10:31 am

Seems that there are two topics here, but I'd like to comment on both.

First, the scenario that Oliver describes is exactly how I had been working for much of the past 10 years. Do all of the precise timing of the cuts and simply effects (dissolves, wipes, etc) in FCP7, and then use Automatic Duck to get the project to AE. Around the time of CS3, I slowly started integrating Premiere into my workflow. I felt that it would start becoming more of a player in the post world because it was cross-platform, and was getting more innovative with each release with things like Dynamic Link. And like most, I already had the software as part of the CS, so it was basically free.

The important factor, however, was always the ability to bring my project to AE as individual elements. Motion was always a fun program for trying things out, but After Effects could never be beat when it came to flexibility and intuitive interface. Expressions are IMO the most powerful tool in motion effects creation. For this reason, above all others, FCPX will not be a viable option for quite some time, if ever. The Avid-AE workflow is still okay, but it is definitely hard to beat the flexibility of Dynamic Link. Because of this, my workflow will be Premiere-AE for the foreseeable future.

I also happen to teach Digital Media at a college. Regarding the Broadcast/No Broadcast choices of my students, it seems to mostly depend upon whether they are sports fans. Those who follow sports tend to stick with broadcast, but heavily supplement with streaming and torrents. Those who don't like sports tend to ignore broadcast almost entirely. Of course, I could certainly see this dynamic changing, as sports streaming has gotten very good. But for now, however, with the exception of major league baseball, the infrastructure to make online-only a viable option for sports-junkies is still lacking.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Keith Koby
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 4:25:35 am

We find motion templates as fcp x generators very easy to manipulate and powerful and as a consequence, we use them more everyday.

Finding a good strategy for distributing motion templates in a facility is the real trick to making it a success.

AE (and C4D) still does the bulk of our creative animation work, but motion is nice as a partner app.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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Erik Lindahl
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 6:54:21 am

I couldn't agree more.

I'll have to give Premier Pro another run for its money I guess. Bad first introduction... What is irritating is how poor the built in effects seem to be. Color-correction seems vastly better in FCP 7/X than PrPro. Sometimes you just don't want to jump out of the NLE to sort out simple CC-fixes. I'm also not 100% sure if the dynamic link structure does it for us. I'll have to do some testing.


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Michael W. Towe
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 3:40:57 pm

Het Erik, The hit on one of the issue I have with Premier. There is so little support for third party effects an transitions out there. And the ones that do work either have some archaic way of implementing them, for instance the FX Factory Pro transitions, or they just take forever to render. The later of those two problems should have a solution coming down the pike as Adobe is going to give developers the ability to access the Mercury playback code.

Specifically on the color correction side of things have a look at Colorista II from Red Giant. I use it all the time for correction in PP and in FCP7. It's way beyond what you can do with the built in CC effects and you can do it directly in the timeline.

Michael W. Towe
President M2 Digital Post
http://www.m2digitalpost.com


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Christopher Travis
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 11:52:44 am

Hey Oliver,

Can you explain how FCP X is lacking in this department compared to Avid and/or FCP 7?

I've never used FCPX, so I'm curious.

Thanks,
Chris


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Oliver Peters
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 12:07:36 pm

"Can you explain how FCP X is lacking in this department compared to Avid and/or FCP 7?"

Ignoring the issue of After Effect integration, for a moment... FCP X's method of Events/Projects is cumbersome at best. In nearly every other NLE, I can select a single project from which to continue my edit. In X, I have to use a number of workaraounds or a third party app to select the proper Events/Projects to load. This makes it very hard to use in a multi-user, multi-suite environment without a lot of rigid rules. As an example, a lot of users organize their Xsan by client projects, the clients, then years, then the elements within. Launch FCP 7 or AE, navigate to the project file and open. You are ready to edit. X doesn't work this way, but PPro does. So converting to PPro lets you continue with existing workflows, while X necessitates a certain amount of re-arranging that can be quite disruptive.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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shawn Bockoven
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 2:43:41 pm

Broadcast TV’s nightmare begins as mobile apps dominate prime time
By Tero Kuittinen on Apr 26, 2013 at 12:00 PM

The latest data from analytics firm Flurry research shows that mobile apps are now used by more than 50 million people in America during the most hectic period of the day. And that moment is at 8:00 p.m. — smack in the middle of TV’s prime time. On weekdays, 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. is the stretch when mobile apps reach more than 50 million U.S. consumers. This happens to coincide with the time most big broadcast television shows air. It probably is no coincidence that while mobile app usage exploded between 2011 and 2013, the most important prime time shows started imploding. “American Idol” is now only a shadow of its former self; its audience collapsed to just 12 million people last Wednesday. “Survivor” has plunged below 10 million viewers...


http://bgr.com/2013/04/26/mobile-app-usage-study-prime-time-tv-467318/


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shawn Bockoven
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 3:04:37 pm

Both of my adult college students have televisions but they do not receive terrestrial broadcast or cable television. They instead use their game consoles or laptops to watch entertainment. My home theater does not utilize a broadcast signal or cable transmission. Apple TV, Panasonic DVD player with HDMI up-conversion, Xbox and VGA for laptop or other device. Once a year I pull out my El Gato for a Super Bowl party. The other day my wife pulled up the CW on her Xbox, the programs included commercials, but it was free, up-to-date programming ... A La Carte entertainment is here. My youngest daughter has grown up without cable in the home--She's my iDaughter.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/22/another-step-toward-a-la-carte-t...


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Paul Neumann
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 3:31:14 pm

So if it's a tiny screen future...

How much of an investment do you make in 4K resolutions? I realize there are a lot of sides to this question. It's been many years since I last shot something in SD, yet I've NEVER burned a Blu-ray disc for any of my clients. Never even been asked.


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Atilio Menéndez
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 3:31:41 pm

Yes, the Events/Projects organization in fcx is unelegant as hell. It is even worse than what you described, Oliver, if you work with compound clips, since these are now stored not within the projects but within the events. What's the point of using projects then? I've no idea. I now use events exclusively, never projects. One event = one project, as in fcp7. These can then be stored and organized much like you described, with "just" the inconvenience that to open them you have to move them to the events folder first and then move them back afterwards. It's ugly, yes, absolutely, but it's not so different than using fcp7 or PPro.
In my opinion it's proper tools for multi-user cooperation what FCX, as a professional tool, is sorely lacking. Even more than the integration with AE or the Events/Projects organization.


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 4:17:41 pm

I actually like the Event/Project Structure what I feel is lacking, though, is way to hide Events or Projects from within the software. I prefer this over FCP7, there's less reconnecting and troubleshooting in FCPX once you get used to it, in my experience, now, if you break the rules you will have issues, like the FCPX hater editor I dealt with recently who claimed to know what he was doing and pulled files out of the events folders instead of calling me, and instead of admitting the mistake complained about X.

I believe that the way FCPX is structured it should work well with shared working environments. One centrally located Event and each editor with his/her own Project. But I don't have any experience setting up shared storage, so I can't tell.

I am getting tired of FCP7, though. At one of the postproductions I work for we get crashes on a regular basis, especially when using XDCam and if someone is grading on the Resolve suite. 2 corrupted Projects per day... And the time it takes to render stuff... And once you start working with titles in FCPX smoothly, you forget how clunky and slow FCP7s title tool really is. And people can complain all they want about keyframes, but what FCPX has to offer is way better than FCP7, and a major improvement...

By the way, I think big screen TVs will continue to thrive no matter what happens to Broadcast. It's more about video on demand and not being limited to certain schedules, why do I need to make time at 8pm if I can watch it whenever I want. Currently I use my TV as my laptop monitor when I'm in the living room, and am thinking about buying one as a second monitor for my iMac to use as control Monitor as well, switching between the HDMI channels as needed.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Michael Hadley
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 10:11:08 pm

If you use FCPX, you must use Event Manager X—it's great, it's cheap, and it hides events and projects exactly as you would like to.

Regarding AE driving NLE decision, for our company, we switched to FCPX about a year ago from FCP7. But nothing has changed in terms of graphics: for small-scale stuff, we use the NLE or Motion templates. For bigger, more creative/involved/3D, we hire a dedicated graphics person. They use whatever they use (typically AE) and send us .MOVs over the inter webs with Alpha channels. Works for us. Been doing it that way for the last 10 years.

AE does not drive the NLE decision. Editing drives the NLE decision.


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David Cherniack
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 3:43:35 pm

[Oliver Peters] "FCP X's method of Events/Projects is cumbersome at best. In nearly every other NLE, I can select a single project from which to continue my edit. In X, I have to use a number of workaraounds or a third party app to select the proper Events/Projects to load."

What I can't fathom is what kind of thought-wave they were riding when they designed it this way. What were they thinking? Better yet, who were they thinking about? Was this inspired from iMovie? (I ask because I don't use either product). I've never been able to understand the design team's reasoning behind this choice of architecture.

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 4:28:52 pm

[David Cherniack] "(I ask because I don't use either product). I've never been able to understand the design team's reasoning behind this choice of architecture."

It's not as bad as people make it out to be, especially if you are on true shared storage, in professional environments.

There are what some might see as advantages to the structure in that almost any XML you send will also send your Event organization structure without sending a separate XML for bins, timelines, etc. That is to say, your organization choices also travel with a timeline XML. It's actually not so bad. When all the media is available on the same shared storage system, there's no relinking, there's no finding media, it simply hooks up.

I'm not saying FCPX is perfect, it isn't, but when you kick the tires on a shared storage system, there are sides to the software that reveal themselves to you that are simply not available on local storage, and it certainly has nothing to do with iMovie besides a passing resemblance.

Local storage does take some working around, but a $4.99 application helps to keep things organized.

Jeremy


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David Cherniack
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 6:30:05 pm

Thanks, Jeremy. I think that augers somewhat well for the intended future of the product. Now, if they ever make classical tracks an option....:)

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 3:54:25 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Probably the real fault here is less FCP X and more the fact that Motion was never seriously pushed to compete with AE. I don't see this changing. FCP X will likely get used in broadcast islands, but I really don't see it as a viable core application in most TV stations or networks that are heavily invested in After Effects."

Couldn't you have said the same about fcp7?

What makes X different besides the obvious of needing to use xto7?

What if, someday, Ae imports FCPXML? Would that change things? I'm just playing devils advocate.

I don't see a big difference between getting edits from FCPX vs FCP7 to Ae if that is what is required of you.

Also, how hard have you pushed dynamic link?

If a particular outfit sees advantages to fcpx then getting to Ae isn't the obstacle that's going to get in the way of getting work done.

Jeremy


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 4:22:39 pm

At Promiflash we get Templates made in Ae, work perfect in X:-)

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Walter Soyka
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 4:30:30 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "If a particular outfit sees advantages to fcpx then getting to Ae isn't the obstacle that's going to get in the way of getting work done."

Agreed -- but "getting to Ae isn't an obstacle" is not a selling point.

"Integration with Ae" or "you get it free when you buy Ae anyway" or even maybe "you've had it on your hard drive for years and never really noticed before but should probably give it a spin now" is.

The more Ae-focused you are, the more attractive Pr may naturally look. The more FCPX-focused you are, the more attractive Motion may naturally look. I think you have to have pretty specific requirements to be more naturally inclined to consider an FCPX/Ae or Pr/Motion workflow.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 4:39:07 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I think you have to have pretty specific requirements to be more naturally inclined to consider an FCPX/Ae or Pr/Motion workflow."

I am not a motion graphics artist, but I use Ae all the time.

When I do use Pr, I do not use dynamic link. It simply doesn't work as well as I want it to. It is much easier to keep Ae and Pr separate.

If Ae and Pr are separate, what is the advantage of me using Pr when FCPX might suit my needs better since Ae and FCPX are separate?

You may be correct in that it isn't a selling point (neither is the motion integration when getting from FCP to Motion without a predetermined rigged template) but it doesn't get in the way of me using the tools I want to use.

I am not saying FCPX is better than Pr or Pr is better than FCPX, all I am saying is that it is entirely possible to use Ae and FCPX just like we did with FCP7. There's not a whole heck of a lot of difference.


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Walter Soyka
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 5:00:28 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "When I do use Pr, I do not use dynamic link. It simply doesn't work as well as I want it to. It is much easier to keep Ae and Pr separate."

Agreed. DL between Ae/Pr is cool for simple comps, but it doesn't perform well with more complicated ones.

I use intermediate renders with project links instead.


[Jeremy Garchow] "If Ae and Pr are separate, what is the advantage of me using Pr when FCPX might suit my needs better since Ae and FCPX are separate?"

If FCPX suits your needs better, of course you should use it. Like you say, it's not like FCPX and Ae can't work together. You don't have to pick one or the other.

However, if Pr and FCPX both suit your needs well, and if you rely on Ae, which NLE are you going to chose?

Or, if you really like the Ae philosophy, in which NLE will you feel more at home?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 5:18:25 pm

[Walter Soyka] "However, if Pr and FCPX both suit your needs well, and if you rely on Ae, which NLE are you going to chose?"

Me personally? The jury is till out on an FCP7 successor, but I don't think Pr is a shoe in. I rely on Ae.

[Walter Soyka] "Or, if you really like the Ae philosophy, in which NLE will you feel more at home?"

So, are we talking about editors, or motion graphic designers that edit?

Or are we talking about just straight editing?

Or we talking about the editor/designer?

The control panels might look similar, but the actual timeline in Ae and Pr are very different.

If you are a motion graphics creator and you need to edit, sure Pr makes a lot of sense since you have it anyway if you have the Creative Suite, but I am not sure it will "drive the NLE decision" industry wide.

It's just not that cut and dry.

Of the dedicated motion graphics artists I work with, they could give a hoot what NLE I use, even though they all use Ae (and some C4D).

I also think that Smoke, if you really truly need a hybrid of broadcast editing/graphics/color/fx, would blow all of these options out of the water provided you had a readily available artist talent pool.


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Walter Soyka
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 5:36:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So, are we talking about editors, or motion graphic designers that edit? Or are we talking about just straight editing? Or we talking about the editor/designer?"

Speaking for myself, I'm talking about the designer/editor. Oliver may have had something different in mind.


[Jeremy Garchow] "If you are a motion graphics creator and you need to edit, sure Pr makes a lot of sense since you have it anyway if you have the Creative Suite, but I am not sure it will "drive the NLE decision" industry wide. It's just not that cut and dry."

Agree 100%. In my mind, this conversation is about a niche.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Of the dedicated motion graphics artists I work with, they could give a hoot what NLE I use, even though they all use Ae (and some C4D)."

Sure. If I'm not editing the piece, I don't care what NLE the editor is using, either. I do my thing, the editor does his or hers. (Which is sad, because if the editor is using FCPX I should want to use Motion.)


[Jeremy Garchow] "I also think that Smoke, if you really truly need a hybrid of broadcast editing/graphics/color/fx, would blow all of these options out of the water provided you had a readily available artist talent pool."

I have started using Smoke now, too, where it's the right tool for the job. I like it quite a bit, but it's strength lies in its workflow and breadth of toolset, not in the depth of any particular area of the toolset. In my mind, it's still missing some really important stuff I'd need to use it as a full-time design tool.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 5:41:06 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I have started using Smoke now, too, where it's the right tool for the job. I like it quite a bit, but it's strength lies in its workflow and breadth of toolset, not in the depth of any particular area of the toolset. In my mind, it's still missing some really important stuff I'd need to use it as a full-time design tool."

But in the market that Oliver pointed out, broadcast promo/advertisement Smoke is truly pretty awesome.

As has been mentioned everywhere, it takes a minute to learn and gain confidence in the application.


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Walter Soyka
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 6:18:46 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "But in the market that Oliver pointed out, broadcast promo/advertisement Smoke is truly pretty awesome. As has been mentioned everywhere, it takes a minute to learn and gain confidence in the application."

Absolutely. It took me months of feeling foolish before Smoke clicked for me.

Smoke is awesome at the things it does well, but for the "hybrid of broadcast editing/graphics/color/fx" that you mentioned, I think Ae is still a pretty valuable Smoke "plugin."

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Greg Andonian
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 7:25:13 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] When I do use Pr, I do not use dynamic link. It simply doesn't work as well as I want it to. It is much easier to keep Ae and Pr separate.

I don't use Dynamic Link all the time either- but even without it, Premiere works really well with Ae. You can copy and paste between them, and you can import a Premiere project into Ae- either the whole thing or specific sequences.

I like this much better than the "intermediate renders" apporoach...

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 10:15:15 pm

[Greg Andonian] " You can copy and paste between them, and you can import a Premiere project into Ae- either the whole thing or specific sequences."

Certainly copying and pasting has some advantages, but I can import fcpx sequences to Ae via XML just like I did with automatic duck and fcp7 (now built in to Ae).

This is what I'm saying, there's not a whole heck of a lot of difference, and while the game has changed with the death of fcs3 and a massive effort from Adobe to try and get Pr tuned up, using fcpx isn't going to stop you from using Ae, or if you like fcpx, Ae won't necessarily push you to Pr and Pl.


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Walter Soyka
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 4:08:42 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I edit and do training from time to time at broadcast facilities... In the workflow that I see, AE is almost more important than the NLE used. "

The conversation seems to have veered off a bit at the mention of "broadcast" so I'll add that this is true with what I'm seeing in non-broadcast work, too.

After Effects is a big part of most (nearly all?) design-heavy production pipelines, as is Photoshop and Illustrator.

The NLE is much more easily replaced than Ae, because there's nothing else really like Ae. FCP7/Pr/MC and even FCPX all have more in common with each other than Ae/Smoke/Nuke. Smoke and Nuke are also both fantastic applications, but if we did Venn diagrams of all these applications and their capabilities, we'd see a lot more convergence on the NLE side and a lot more divergence on the design/compositing side.

My anecdotal experience is that editors who do not also produce motion graphics themselves are vastly more open to FCPX than those who do. I have no idea how true this may be elsewhere.


[Oliver Peters] "Probably the real fault here is less FCP X and more the fact that Motion was never seriously pushed to compete with AE. I don't see this changing. FCP X will likely get used in broadcast islands, but I really don't see it as a viable core application in most TV stations or networks that are heavily invested in After Effects."

Or design agencies.

I wish Motion were stronger. If I didn't feel like I was in a straightjacket every time I used Motion, rigging and publishing to FCPX could be a fantastic way for design and editorial to collaborate.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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James Culbertson
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 5:29:03 pm

[Walter Soyka] "My anecdotal experience is that editors who do not also produce motion graphics themselves are vastly more open to FCPX than those who do. I have no idea how true this may be elsewhere."

I do a lot of Motion Graphics work with AE (though still primarily an editor), and I preferred FCP7 and now prefer FCPX as my NLE. I find I can do a lot of the simpler things I used to do in AE in FCPX directly (same for sound and color correction). For more complex motion graphics projects the time I spend interfacing between AE and FCPX is negligible. I can understand certain niche markets and certain project workflows needing Dynamic Link, but I've never found it to save all that much time over my current main workflows... especially if you make proper use of smart collections and auditions.

Doing more rather than less in my NLE directly has always been the holy grail for me.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 6:22:36 pm

Can't find the link but I remember reading somewhere that there is a trend in the younger generation of delaying buying large items like TVs until they are more settled in. And it makes sense, if you are college age and on the go all the time a TV is a door stop as you'll be getting what you need on the go. But once you've landed a job in the real world, have a steady relationship. etc., having multiple people curling up around the iPad to watch a movie just isn't as cute as it was as a teenager, lol. Back in the day it was a TV or nothing but now there are more options.

There is also Aereo (https://www.aereo.com/) which lets people stream broadcast TV legally (though they are being sued right now). Basically Aereo has set up millions of tiny TV antennas and when someone signs up for the service they are renting one of those antennas. Only $80/yr for their premium plan which includes 40hrs of DVR space.




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Bill Davis
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 6:58:49 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " But once you've landed a job in the real world, have a steady relationship. etc., having multiple people curling up around the iPad to watch a movie just isn't as cute as it was as a teenager, lol."

Much truth in this, IMO.

I will note, tho, that the Starbucks story is germane here.

The idea wasn't the need for coffee, it was the need for neutral meeting space where people who didn't have formal offices and who didn't necessarily want to have people come to their homes to socialize and transact business could congregate - that actually drove their business model.

So at some level, the "I want a living room where I can bring all my neighbors and friends inside to watch the big event" is what? What's the need it's fulfilling?

And this might sound judgmental, but at it's base, it's kinda an individuals way of saying "hey, look at the nice living room I have! It's a social status thing as much as a functional necessity on any level.

Now I'm not diminishing the need for social status indicators or the value of showing off how well you're doing to your peer group. That's been part of human experience since day one.

And I remember being right in the middle of that during my younger family days. Went to friends houses for "Event TV Parties." It was kinda funny, but it really never worked out all that well, IMO. To "watch a movie" in that setting, shuts down all social interaction while everyone stares at the screen.

Sports works MUCH better, since it's short bursts of interaction with the screen around plenty of time to cheer and converse, but again, that's competing with the local big-screen bar and using the tools you purchased ostensibly for your internal family entertainment to entertain others.

Since I have the nice converted haybarn studio, I did lots of "put up a projector and have all my son's friends in for the big movie party" nights. But over time, that just kinda faded away.

Maybe it's just my personal perspective, colored by my life stage - but honestly social viewing rituals aren't that big a deal for me anymore.

When I want social big screen experiences, I've got the movies. I can go to the local Irish pub for the NCAA finals and get superb Guinness on tap and corned beef to boot. And Linda and I don't have to clean up afterwards.

But that's just me.

Just understand that if you think NLE tech devalues rapidly, wait until you're staring at that huge screen TV you paid $2000 plus to install in "pride of place" on the living room wall - only to realize that it's become a hanging doorstop in terms of value.

YMMV.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 7:35:30 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm not devaluing expertise here. Just looking at the trends and considering what kind of tools and which levels of "product specificity" - will be MOST valued in the coming decade.

Will it be better to be GREAT at one area and OK at a few others... or will it be better to be competent at a wider range of skills - at the expense of being really excellent at any one or two?"


Like almost every discussion here I think it depends on what segment of the market someone wants to get into. Some areas need generalists and others need specialists. The key is obviously to figure out which direction you need to go in order to achieve your goals.

Valve (the video game company) has a very interesting take creative office structure (all workstations are on wheels for easy mobility, no titles, etc.,) and they look for people with a "T-shaped" skill set (deep knowledge about one thing and superficial knowledge about many things).

Below is a link to their employee handbook which I think anyone here would find interesting reading.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1074301/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf


[Bill Davis] "So at some level, the "I want a living room where I can bring all my neighbors and friends inside to watch the big event" is what? What's the need it's fulfilling?

And this might sound judgmental, but at it's base, it's kinda an individuals way of saying "hey, look at the nice living room I have! It's a social status thing as much as a functional necessity on any level."


I think I missed the thread(s) you are referencing because I have no idea what you are talking about in this post. I was just saying that two or more adults cradling an tablet for 90 minutes is not a very comfortable viewing experience hence the desire to get a TV. I'm not talking about throwing superbowl parties or any big event like that but just casual viewing by 2 or more people. It's a matter of pragmatism.




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James Culbertson
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 7:27:41 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "But once you've landed a job in the real world, have a steady relationship. etc., having multiple people curling up around the iPad to watch a movie just isn't as cute as it was as a teenager, lol. Back in the day it was a TV or nothing but now there are more options."

I have an HDTV in my studio office. But my wife prefers to curl up in our living room with me and watch TV shows streamed from Netflix on her little 13" MacBook. We almost never view cable or broadcast anymore, but purely on-demand TV shows and movies. And most everyone I know in the Seattle area is similar (even if they do have an HDTV) in that many have jettisoned their cable service entirely in the same way they have cast off their land lines. But I agree theirre is a lot of variety in how people consume media at this time; options are good.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 7:45:28 pm

[James Culbertson] "I have an HDTV in my studio office. But my wife prefers to curl up in our living room with me and watch TV shows streamed from Netflix on her little 13" MacBook. We almost never view cable or broadcast anymore, but purely on-demand TV shows and movies. And most everyone I know in the Seattle area is similar (even if they do have an HDTV) in that many have jettisoned their cable service entirely in the same way they have cast off their land lines. But I agree theirre is a lot of variety in how people consume media at this time; options are good."

Do you have an HDTV in the living room? Separately the GF and I will watch things on a laptop or whatever but if we are watching something together it's on the TV (which is in the living room). We like to stretch out on the couch (or one person gets the couch and the other the love seat) so it's not every conducive to sharing a laptop. Almost everything we watch is streaming, we don't have cable and outside of football season we don't use the antenna very much.




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James Culbertson
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 7:59:40 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Do you have an HDTV in the living room?"

I wouldn't mind having one. But my wife doesn't feel compelled to get one since the 13" MacBook is good enough for her (and for most of the TV shows and movies we watch together it is good enough unfortunately). When I am watching obscure European films or whatever I am banished to my office... which I don't mind as it has better audio in there anyway.

Tarkovsky's "Sacrifice" or Wender's "Wings of Desire" can really use an HDTV (since I cannot yet afford a movie theater in my backyard). But something like the TV show "Midsomer Murders" or "Doc Martin" is fine on a 13" MacBook.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 8:07:25 pm

[James Culbertson] "I wouldn't mind having one. But my wife doesn't feel compelled to get one since the 13" MacBook is good enough for her (and for most of the TV shows and movies we watch together it is good enough unfortunately). "

Statistically speaking I was certainly in the latter half of American's to get an HDTV so I'm not a home theater junky or anything like that but it is nice to stretch out on the couch to watch a show or fire up the 360 (yes, getting an HD game system did impact my decision to make the jump to HD).




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Bill Davis
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 6:36:11 pm

To my eye, the most fascinating part of this entire thread is seeing how people define their roles in the production workflow of today.

Reading it, you'd think that very few people think it's OK to wear a single hat anymore.

Put these "job descriptions" in a hat...

editor
graphic designer
compositor
typesetter
audio mixer
compressionist

and likely 10 more I can't immediately think of -

and from reading this thread, few seem to feel they can be seen as just excellent in ONE area any more.

Even Walter, who likely comes closest as a high level design professional rather than as a "working day to day editor" has to keep a very sharp eye on the other stuff, in order to leverage his specialty properly.

And, if you combine that reality with the fact that there is more need for motion content (overall content, not just mograph) in more arenas today than ever before, I do wonder if the era we're moving into is going to find more value in in individuals that can do more things at a basic professional level of competence, rather than individuals that do any particular part of the list at an extremely high level.

I'm not devaluing expertise here. Just looking at the trends and considering what kind of tools and which levels of "product specificity" - will be MOST valued in the coming decade.

Will it be better to be GREAT at one area and OK at a few others... or will it be better to be competent at a wider range of skills - at the expense of being really excellent at any one or two?

Adobe seems to believe that the path is to provide a wide swath of excellent "niche" tools - all under a single brand with cross-talk efficiency - understanding that the user who trains themselves to be excellent at using one - will be more likely to use it's suite-mates for the other areas where they're less focused.

Apple also seems to think the "multi-hat" approach is important as well, but took a different tack, building less complex (but built on extremely high quality output code) tools for most of these functions inside a slimmed down profile with lots of automatic options to get a creator to higher quality more efficiently, at the expense of some of the "deep" level controls that experts value so much. (Story of the color board, in a nutshell, IMO)

It's the battle about who to design your product for. Fewer customers with deeper needs. Or a much wider pool of potential content creators .

it will surprise nobody that I find more personal value in the Apple approach. I'm not truly excellent at any of the niche areas - and freely admit that. But I'm a solid, competent pro at most, and the fact that X has made it easer for me to get to a deliverable that I'm comfortable with — much more easily and significantly more rapidly — is the primary driver of my comfort.

For someone else, not having the ability to do something that AE does brilliantly is a non-starter.

Interesting to think about in these terms.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on Apr 30, 2013 at 11:22:18 pm

A few random responses to some of the posts in this thread…

First, I'm not sure why some of the posts went off on a tangent about demographics and the future of broadcasting. That's completely irrelevant. For what it's worth, most of the users I see in these departments are clearly "20-somethings". They have a far better grasp of AE than I do. When I teach students, they all aspire to high production values, not to create the proverbial YouTube cat videos. "New media" content producers often have bigger and better infrastructures than many TV stations, if not some TV networks. Tablets are already 2K (and better) media delivery devices. If anything, these points underscore my argument.

I am describing what I witness, not whether it is right or wrong or pro or anti FCP X. The young editors are often hired because of their digital media skills, not because they are "editors". They often work cheaper than their older "editor" predecessors and are generally more software savvy, but in ways that err towards graphics. Many stations' creative departments also service their own and their clients' web outlets, so some of these teams also handle website creation.

Personally, I find it interesting in deconstructing some past projects, that all the heavy lifting of supers, design, etc. has been done in AE, when it's often a bad place to do it. It's hard to time things out to audio in the way you can in an NLE. As an editor, my first choice is do it in the NLE and then go to AE, when it needs more.

I agree about the transitions and that's one of the cool aspects of X that has me hanging around. It's actually quite amazing - as I deconstruct these older AE comps - to see the lengths someone has gone to to create a glow-dissolve from scratch. Sheesh! Drop it on the NLE timeline!!!

FCP X can work in a multi-user/multi-seat facility, but it's really ill-suited to do so. Event Manager X is an essential tool, but to say that it provides the same ease as clicking a single-self-contained project file is a joke. It's not. And navigating your way through sparse disk images or SAN locations is an equal kluge.

The Events/Projects approach is simply bad UI design that was copied from Avid without the elegance of Avid. In a typical Xsan situation I see, let's assume 30 ongoing clients with 3 years' worth of past projects. If the station created only 1 project file a year per client with 5 sequences inside each, that's 450 edits you have to deal with. Simply no elegant way to do it with X and Apple continues to be mute on this issue when pressed. Their current "fair haired boy" is Cantemo Portal.

Smoke is a good creative solution for this world, EXCEPT it has the same sort of problems getting to a wealth of old spots. Plus there simply is no talent pool to speak of in most markets. The compositing is awesome, but learning curve is steep. The effects UI is very inconsistent, since there are about 4-5 variations of how you handle effects (each with different UIs).

While I personally like many aspects of X, I simply don't see it gaining traction in this market. These are the same reasons that the Premiere Pro "switchers", like the editor at Rock Paper Scissors, or SNL or Conan's crew have mentioned. They use AE and PPro as natural companions - with or without Dynamic Link. I see X possibly gaining better penetration with program creation folks - TV shows, films, etc. - even hard news - as these are less graphically oriented. All I can say is that if you think the majority of multi-seat/multi-user facilities will migrate to X instead of PPro, you've got blinders on.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 12:31:52 am

[Oliver Peters] "I am describing what I witness ..."

Oliver,

Thanks both for your original post, and following up with this thoughtful response.

I think one thing you may want to elaborate on is the scope of what you're commenting on - numbers of facilities or editors, and generally where or what environments.

Franz.


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Oliver Peters
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 12:53:11 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I think one thing you may want to elaborate on is the scope of what you're commenting on - numbers of facilities or editors, and generally where or what environments."

Fair enough. My direct experience related to this specific situation (TV station creative services departments) covers several local market stations in Florida. However, the decisions involved cover their whole broadcast group, so by extension this actually covers stations in many other markets. The broader perception of Premiere Pro as the "front runner" includes direct contacts at major corporate facilities and at least one network facility in NY.

The total number of editors is quite small, though. Less than two dozen. Obviously I'm extrapolating from a small sample, but I haven't seen or heard much to contradict that. The one caveat I would offer is that many facilities are also moving to Avid where they have a good relationship with Avid. Naturally the vast number of FCP 7 based facilities are still just sitting on their hands.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 2:24:12 am

It's interesting - in your broadcast experience you're seeing facilities moving toward AVID - in my broadcast experience, I see them moving away from AVID to Adobe CS. My guess here is that we are all working in "micro-climates" of experience and choice.

The facility I worked at here in NH, as Art Director and senior motion graphics designer for 14 years, was part of a 28 station group owned by Hearst Corporation (at one time Hearst-Argyle). We started out more or less self-contained, as far as equipment decisions went, and were gradually strong-armed toward AVID by the corporate engineering department of Hearst (although we had strongly suggested that they look at the Adobe CS product). Our graphics department, however, was using Photoshop and Illustrator as our main design tools, before the advent of the Creative Suite. At that point is was Photoshop, Illustrator, Combustion, and 3DS Max. When the problems with the AVID systems far surpassed their promised efficiency and time-savings the AVID reps had assured us of, Hearst put a hold on further AVID purchases (which were huge up to then - think of 28 stations, each with several AVID NLE seats, and a Unity storage system), and set our station up as a test site for the early CS products, most specifically, Premiere Pro, since we were already based around Photoshop and Illustrator.

We started running circles around the AVID workflow (mostly due to constant technical glitches with the mass storage, and time lost due to constant re-linking - and they had also cheaped out on the training necessary to get the editors up to speed), and the AVID suites were relegated to tape capture, with each producer/editor having his own CS Suite on his desktop machine. Corporate engineering loved it, and the station group was migrated to Adobe products:
http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/casestudies/c...

It was an interesting saga - being forced into AVID by management who obviously didn't ask the end-users what we thought - then turned around and put us to work testing the products we had asked for at the beginning of the process...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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David Lawrence
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 3:04:21 am

[Oliver Peters] "When I teach students, they all aspire to high production values, not to create the proverbial YouTube cat videos."

A director I collaborate with and I were in NYC for a screening of our work over the weekend and yesterday we spoke to friend's new media class at SVA. The students are learning a range of skills in digital media arts including 2D and 3D animation, animation, programming, and interactive design. The lab has both Macs and PCs. They are heavily invested in Adobe tools. The work they showed and their aspirations are for the highest possible production values they can achieve.

I spoke about NLEs and when I asked what they use, the all said FCP 7. They also said they had zero interest in FCPX. This was an admittedly small sample, but if it's like this in many other schools, then Adobe is well positioned for the future. I don't think Apple can count on FCPX growing by "attrition".

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 3:12:01 am

I just don't see this as news that Adobe After Effects, Photoshop, and Illustrator are being taught to students and students are using them to get high quality work done.

Hasn't it been this way for some time now?

Out of all the video tools I've used, After Effects is the one I've been using the longest.


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David Lawrence
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 3:21:34 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I just don't see this as news that Adobe After Effects, Photoshop, and Illustrator are being taught to students and students are using them to get high quality work done.

Hasn't it been this way for some time now?

Out of all the video tools I've used, After Effects is the one I've been using the longest."


Oh, I completely agree. I think the point is now that Premiere has received major enhancements -- many in direct response to FCP Legacy user requests -- it's now poised to join them in the NLE space.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Chris Harlan
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 11:54:49 pm

[David Lawrence] "[Jeremy Garchow] "I just don't see this as news that Adobe After Effects, Photoshop, and Illustrator are being taught to students and students are using them to get high quality work done.

Hasn't it been this way for some time now?

Out of all the video tools I've used, After Effects is the one I've been using the longest."

Oh, I completely agree. I think the point is now that Premiere has received major enhancements -- many in direct response to FCP Legacy user requests -- it's now poised to join them in the NLE space.
"


Its funny. This statement makes me reflect on all the different directions we come from. When I think about what video tool I've used the longest, across all of the NLEs going back to linear, I can't escape the fact that one single program--MS Word--connects them all. I'm a writer who became a producer who became an editor. Photoshop would probably be second. "Farph!," you say. "Word ain't no video tool." But, I beg to differ.

And, yes--this is just an aside. I am in no way arguing that choice of Word Processor will dictate choice of NLE.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 10:48:30 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Out of all the video tools I've used, After Effects is the one I've been using the longest."

Me too. Well PS and Quark going back to college - but AE pretty much solidly for fourteen years now. FCP since version 3.

I agree with David's point largely. A lot of people who became quite symbiotic between AE and FCP have to be pretty overwhelmingly likely to roll over that relationship to Premiere. PPro 7 is sending out massive massive come hither signs to me personally. (Like you don't know that).

God knows I've said this before, but out of everyone I know in London, I am the only one who has paid for, and uses at all, FCPX. Not alone is there no natural inclination towards it, but it effectively has zero visibility.

I think there is maybe an interesting point to be made about the kind of timeline you want - if it is often a precursor to jumping in and out of AE. I want a reliable, clean tracked editing timeline mostly. Apart from anything else, FCPX is just so involved. It's a pretty arcane space. I know it has XML and that, but it just feels too zany apart from anything else.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 3:49:56 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I think there is maybe an interesting point to be made about the kind of timeline you want - if it is often a precursor to jumping in and out of AE. I want a reliable, clean tracked editing timeline mostly. Apart from anything else, FCPX is just so involved. It's a pretty arcane space. I know it has XML and that, but it just feels too zany apart from anything else."

Then plain and simple, it won't work for you. It's that easy.

If Adobe's multi channel output tracks are clean to you, then we really have a difference of opinion.

For me, there are really good things about the FCPX timeline, one of them is that I get to be more creative more quickly. I also like how dynamic the FCPX timeline can be, but again, it suits me. Everyone that sits back and watches an edit session knows that there's something different and decent with FCPX, and many people don't believe it until they really see it. The skepticism is certainly high.

I also don't see the Avid style convention as the only way non linear editing needs to work. The world has changed so much from capturing a pull downed BetaSP and a match back to film change lists.

I'll go on record and say that I'm not a huge fan of the marker style interface between Pr/Pl but that's my hang up.

It is unfortunate that Adobe's XMP system can't be used in more of a manner like FCPX's Event tagging, and data aggregation and sort system. If it did, I might feel differently about Pr. Organization is a big deal to me and to our workflows.

Jeremy


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 8:49:12 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "can't be used in more of a manner like FCPX's Event tagging, and data aggregation and sort system."

I've got an interesting rejoinder to that - a guy I know who roadtested FCPX very seriously for nearly twelve months, before his company pulled the plug had a few things to say about it.

Primarily - it dealt with group workflow. At an operational level, they found it basically unworkable. When I say this I mean he was literally gesticulating in frustration saying things like "how do you work with this?" and "the amount of files it leaves everywhere" I didn't over press him on the point, we were in a bar, but this was a place that had a brand level interest in maintaining the relationship. They effectively gave it everything.

then they gave up, met repeatedly with adobe, and are re-architecting a 100-1000 level post facility around PPro and anywhere.

Nevermind the issues with the timeline, the one off environment outside of tracked timelines that it asks you to walk into and acclimatise to. Nevermind the point that it is on rails as an editing system funnelling editing behaviour.

nevermind all that - you're a booster jeremy right? Or at least someone who is well involved in exploring the possibilities - do you think FCPX is a functional editing system in a group post environment? or is likely to be? And if so why?

isn't there a reason why its sweet spot is solo editors in fast turnaround?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 12:31:55 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "nevermind all that - you're a booster jeremy right? Or at least someone who is well involved in exploring the possibilities - do you think FCPX is a functional editing system in a group post environment? or is likely to be? And if so why? "

I'm a booster, if you're a booster.

I just want to pick what is going to be best now and in the near future. I am kicking FCPX's tired in a shared environment and I find a lot of aspects of it to be be pretty good actually. FCPX is really really good at grouping things together, but we've had that discussion before.

Yes, I think it will likely be easy to use in a shared environment. In some ways it already is and has a user check in check out system built in. It is not perfect, don't let me overstate it.

I don't know how often you share projects with other editors. The way that I find that this works with FCPX is pretty good. I am sure I am in the minority. As far as shared workflows go, we are no where near Hearst Television, but I find that there are tools in FCPX that are good. The Project XML example was one of them, where not only do you get the timeline, you also get the organization of the sending editor, if you choose to use it.

I think that it will be a functional editing system in a shared environment because it can already function in a shared environment.

I could also extrapolate, using existing technologies and functions already capable in OSX, but I won't as people don't like to hear about what may be anymore, they would rather hear about the now.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "When I say this I mean he was literally gesticulating in frustration saying things like "how do you work with this?" and "the amount of files it leaves everywhere" "

It took me a minute to work with it, too, as well as a few feature updates from Apple. Also, as far as the amount of files, Pr has it's fair share of cache and XMP files it can litter, Avid has an explosion of a file structure, and many of Smoke's underlying files are hidden out of view, but amass a great quantity of files. FCPX's render files and alias files are pretty simple to deal with if you need to deal with them. All NLE's require a bit of file housekeeping.

Also, any Project folder structure you create in the Project Library is exactly mirrored in the Finder. It's really couldn't be much easier, but it certainly works differently than anything else. I know you've seen this screen grab that I have posted before:






I am not scared of different file structures and different ways of working, I just want to work better.

I have less and less time to do more and more work, the demand of lots of content in an really timely manner has only increased with the advent of faster technology.

A sizzle core beast ins't going to help me tell a story faster, but an efficient way to get the ever increasing amount of original and found material grouped and organized will help get the job done faster. I can't be the only editor on the planet feeling that pressure and being asked to do more with less time.

Jeremy


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Greg Andonian
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 8:39:46 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] Apart from anything else, FCPX is just so involved. It's a pretty arcane space. I know it has XML and that, but it just feels too zany apart from anything else.

This is what makes me really prefer Premiere if I'm going to be using AE. It's not so much that X is ZANY- it's just that it's so different. Even if hopping from FCPX to AE were just as simple as it is with Premiere, I would have to totally switch gears into an entirely different frame of mind every time I did it. With Premiere I don't have to worry about that. There are a lot of things in Premiere- the effect controls in particular- that are VERY similar to AE. And that makes it a lot easier to work with them combined. Going from Premiere to AE is like switching to another mode in the same application.

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 9:00:03 pm

[Greg Andonian] "Going from Premiere to AE is like switching to another mode in the same application."

so there's this. the FCP/AE user base, that cross pollination creative editor that lived within FCP - that is basically a pacific ocean?

They are not going to Avid, because it's godawful coming from FCP and because there is no market pressure to do so - FCP is Rip Van Winkle.
They are not going to FCPX, because let's be serious.
Once PPro7 hits - that's pretty much it effectively. It's minted software. Adobe are after carving out occam's razor for a gigantic, gigantic number of people.

How they do not get the brass ring, and run avid into the ground with anywhere - it is really hard to see. Anywhere kills interplay and sphere right?
it commoditises it?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 11:55:38 am

"It's interesting - in your broadcast experience you're seeing facilities moving toward AVID - in my broadcast experience, I see them moving away from AVID to Adobe CS. My guess here is that we are all working in "micro-climates" of experience and choice."

I see both happening. We have a Hearst station here, too, and they are using Premiere. Avid is the "devil you know" and they are making their best efforts at new sales. Not all users feel like they have been strong-armed by Avid.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 3:28:13 am

[Oliver Peters] "FCP X can work in a multi-user/multi-seat facility, but it's really ill-suited to do so. Event Manager X is an essential tool, but to say that it provides the same ease as clicking a single-self-contained project file is a joke. It's not. And navigating your way through sparse disk images or SAN locations is an equal kluge."

I can't speak to sparse images, but why do you have to wade your way through SAN Locations?

Just export a Project XML and all the info is stored in the XML.

Once imported on another machine a new Event is created with organization, as well as the Project.

I can't use Event Manager X at work as it doesn't work with a SAN, but I find it no different than navigating through a mass of Finder folders for fcp7 projects.

[Oliver Peters] "The Events/Projects approach is simply bad UI design that was copied from Avid without the elegance of Avid. In a typical Xsan situation I see, let's assume 30 ongoing clients with 3 years' worth of past projects. If the station created only 1 project file a year per client with 5 sequences inside each, that's 450 edits you have to deal with. Simply no elegant way to do it with X and Apple continues to be mute on this issue when pressed. Their current "fair haired boy" is Cantemo Portal."

Can't you create one Wvent a year with 5 compounds in it?

Or if you use projects, you'd have 5 projects in a SAN Location. Is that really all that bad?

[Oliver Peters] "All I can say is that if you think the majority of multi-seat/multi-user facilities will migrate to X instead of PPro, you've got blinders on."

I don't know who you are talking to specifically here, but in my experience, multi-user, multi-seat Pr environments isn't exactly a cake walk especially when you account for all the caching Pr seems to do with certain formats.

Yes, Pr operates similar to how fcp7 s project structure is situated, but is hardly call that the pinnacle of a shared system.

It is much easier for me to send an FCPXML with just the information I need to send to another editor on the system and that XML carries not only edit information, but organization as well.

I can't get that with Pr.


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Greg Andonian
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 3:54:59 am

[Jeremy Garchow] in my experience, multi-user, multi-seat Pr environments isn't exactly a cake walk especially when you account for all the caching Pr seems to do with certain formats.

Yes, Pr operates similar to how fcp7 s project structure is situated, but is hardly call that the pinnacle of a shared system.

It is much easier for me to send an FCPXML with just the information I need to send to another editor on the system and that XML carries not only edit information, but organization as well.

I can't get that with Pr.


Going by what's available in CS6, I agree with you. But collaboration is one of the areas that got a massive re-tooling in the new version. Soon you'll be able to bring in another project while someone else is working on another part of it- with no XML required.

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 4:37:19 am

It sounds good, along with the new relinking.

As I mentioned, Adobe has done some really good work with Pr.

My blinders aren't on, that's for sure.


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Oliver Peters
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 11:59:50 am

All good ideas. I didn't say it couldn't be done. Just that it was ill-suited. Everything you mention is a workaround that deviates from a standard workflow put in place at most facilities. So yes, it can be done, but I doubt many are interested in investigating these approaches and retraining staff accordingly.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 12:43:24 pm

[Oliver Peters] "All good ideas. I didn't say it couldn't be done. Just that it was ill-suited. Everything you mention is a workaround that deviates from a standard workflow put in place at most facilities. So yes, it can be done, but I doubt many are interested in investigating these approaches and retraining staff accordingly."

There's no question that fcpx works differently.

Avid sharing works differently as well.

The method that was born out of FCP the elder was born out of necessity, not necessarily design.

As Greg mentions, Pr CS Next will allow you to import parts of another project.

This means that you have to be able to have access to that project.

This, in some way, is similar to importing an FCPX XML, but with an enhanced "browse" type of feature.

This is also a different way of working than a typical dupe a project scenario.

What you see as workarounds is how I see as how the operation works. There's a big difference at least on my mind, especially with the syntax.

I do not expect fcpx to work like Pr or Pr to work like Avid, or Smoke to work like Fcpx. That would be stifiling.

I hear you that incorporating fcpx will be hard work and time, but we are veering off the topic of Ae being the conduit.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 1, 2013 at 9:46:58 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "As Greg mentions, Pr CS Next will allow you to import parts of another project.
This means that you have to be able to have access to that project.
This, in some way, is similar to importing an FCPX XML, but with an enhanced "browse" type of feature.
"


What? Jeremy - those are in no way similar scenarios. to put it mildly?

In PPro 7, I have live access to another PPro project in process, the contents update live in the media browser. I can hover scrub the footage items, grab clips or sequences, and there is also no master clip duplication when I grab the assets.

how exactly are you comparing that workflow to an XML?

that said we'll need to see it in action, but to compare the above to a static XMl file is a pretty weird conclusion.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 12:44:32 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "What? Jeremy - those are in no way similar scenarios. to put it mildly?"

Look at the results, not the action.

When you need something from another editor, what do you really want? Perhaps you do need to browse their project, for me, it's most likely not.

You probably simply need a bin or a timeline, sometimes a whole project.

With FCPX, I File > Import an XML and I get a timeline and organization (keyword collections, et al).

With Pr, i would open someone else's project, browse what I need to look for and import it. I would get what I choose to import, at least that's how I understand it from what I have read so far.

So, to me, it's basically a "File > Import", and you get what you need. Pr allows you to search and scrub for it if necessary, FCPX imports what was given to you. I don't see them as all that different. When you are sharing something, at least in my experience, it's not a search and rescue mission. Usually, if I am receiving or sending something to someone else, it is a very specific bit of organization or timeline.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 1:31:13 am

Having never used the XML export/import feature in FCPX and never used CS7 I just want to say that one thing I really like about Avid is the ability to open another editor's bin (as well as manipulate projects at the Finder level). Giving/receiving of things can happen invisibly in the background w/o anyone having to stop what they are doing. Working on big shows with a lot of editors and assists it's a god send. Part of the reason I like it is probably because I like being able to get what I need w/o having disrupt someone else in the process. I am the type of person that likes aisle seats on planes because if I need to get up and use the restroom I won't disturb anyone.




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Michael Gissing
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 2:44:57 am

Picking up on something Bill said about specialising. I grade & sound post and increasingly want to add image manipulation and graphics to the specialities. So my base is getting a bit broader. That said, I prefer to get image and graphic work done by specialists and the ones I know all use AE. So it makes sense increasingly for me to use the AE/ Pr route for finishing timelines post grade with da Vinci Resolve.

So in a way I agree with Oliver's original asserting that AE, as a must have tool in many facilities and for many one off editors, makes the logic of the Pr integration and the relative clumsiness of X to AE to push NLE choice, particularly in an environment where there is less specialisation. So I can see AE's role in pushing Pr both for specialists like myself and generalists who need a complete integrated toolset.


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Oliver Peters
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 1:14:20 pm

The use of AE as a finishing tool has been going in for many years. I suspect it goes back to Stu Maschwitz's DV Rebel book and approach to filmmaking. After all, there's a pretty good color correction too, bundled with it in Color Finesse and it's the whole reason Automatic Duck was started in the first place.

Right now, Smoke and Resolve have re-energized the concept of finishing and I suspect PPro/AE stack up well in this scenario.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Erik Lindahl
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 1:17:22 pm

In regards to AE as a finishing tool - yes this is what I do as well. I was hoping Premier Pro went into a "finishing solution" my self. As I've said before I haven't had that much work one with Dynamic Link, I think as it works now it might not be the tool for our workflow. This is also why I bang my head every release of AE and PrPro that hasn't gotten an overhaul to their scopes.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 1:57:04 pm

I keep holding out hope for SpeedGrade in conjunction with the rest of the CS for finishing.

This way I have to best of both worlds in fcpx as my organizational and edit tool of choice and using Pr and all of its connections for the finish.

It seems to be getting closer from what I can tell, I'll have to wait and see how CS next's communication shakes out.


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Richard Herd
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 2:28:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "edit tool of choice and using Pr and all of its connections for the finish."

Just to be clear: Are you organizing and editing in X. Then sending to Pr/AE for a finish? If so, how are you getting the X timeline into Pr?

Thanks!
Rich


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 2:53:10 pm

[Richard Herd] "Just to be clear: Are you organizing and editing in X. Then sending to Pr/AE for a finish? If so, how are you getting the X timeline into Pr?"

That's what I would like to do, yes.

Xto7 will get you to Pr.

Jeremy


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Oliver Peters
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 2:24:44 pm

"This is also why I bang my head every release of AE and PrPro that hasn't gotten an overhaul to their scopes."
Ironically FCP X could be a good finishing tool. The scopes are nice. Video quality is excellent. But relinking is essentially non-existent. And there's no list interchange outside of FCPXML.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Erik Lindahl
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 2:46:10 pm

FCPX has some amazing "finishing features" for sure. It also has some dreadful limitations in this area as well. PrPro with After Effects and now Speed Grade could be the king of finishing. I just don't quite see Adobe driving it in that direction. I also think there is a lot of money in the thousands of editors out there vs the hundred finishing artists. I think Adobe could use this to their advantage in the higher-end finishing space. They are just not there yet with CS 7 / 2013 / Next-whatever they are going to call it.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 2:58:00 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Ironically FCP X could be a good finishing tool. The scopes are nice. Video quality is excellent. But relinking is essentially non-existent. And there's no list interchange outside of FCPXML."

It is so strange how we are absolutely upside down in our opinions.

I think FCPX is a really good organizing, sort, sync, tag, transcode everything to a minimum of format, fast and hyper efficient, offline edit and creative editing tool.

The Creative Suite has all the makings of a finish complete with motion graphics, audio, color correction, tracking, masking, roto, real time capabilities (provided you have the grunt) and can accept and output a wide variety of interchange.

Odd.


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Oliver Peters
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 4:22:19 pm

Could is the operative word.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 3:51:00 am

Well said, Andrew.


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Greg Andonian
Re: AE drives the NLE decision
on May 2, 2013 at 4:21:57 am

[Andrew Kimery] Having never used the XML export/import feature in FCPX and never used CS7 I just want to say that one thing I really like about Avid is the ability to open another editor's bin (as well as manipulate projects at the Finder level). Giving/receiving of things can happen invisibly in the background w/o anyone having to stop what they are doing.

I don't know about project manipulation at the finder level, but going through the Media Browser in the next Premiere you CAN import or browse the contents of bins from another project, even while someone else is working on the project they're in. I also like this better than the XML route, because the person you're getting things from doesn't have to stop what they're doing and export anything.

On another note (and going back to the original topic of the thread), you can also import a Premiere sequence into After Effects while the project is open in Premiere. For collaboration workflows, that could also help speed things up compared to the FCPX - to - AE route.

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