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**Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**

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Aindreas Gallagher
**Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 12:02:17 pm

Looks like adobe are going to force the entire customer base onto perpetual hire purchase.
They're coming for all our bank accounts on direct debit for real. If you just spent thousands on a perpetual license, I feel for you.

first up:
[Oliver Peters] "A client site where I freelance called yesterday and asked for the cost to upgrade their group perpetual license (5 seats). The Adobe rep told them the only option that they could offer at this time was a Creative Cloud Team subscription. They were also told this at NAB. "

and in response to a question about upgrading a perpetual license, this came back:

[Dennis Radeke] "The question is really if you want to start a Creative Cloud Membership now or later. If you start a Creative Cloud membership now, you will get CS6. When the next version of the products become available, you will automatically have access to the new versions. It's hard to lose either way.
"


Looks like they're really going to try and do it - force their entire customer base, at gun point, to hand over their private bank details and set up perpetual direct debits for hire purchase software that they will never own.

What's worse, if you think about it this way - the files, the personal output you create are your own right? but if for any reason the financial agreement is suspended - the personal intellectual copyright material you have created can never be opened or modified again. In effect - adobe are selling olive oil here - it sounds nice at the beginning, but you are incredibly at their mercy in the long run. If they ever decide to turn off your Creative Cloud oxygen, or there is a failure of any kind on the direct debit, all of the work you have created with that software is dead - it cannot even be opened, nevermind modified. Until adobe decide it can again.

they have direct control, for life, over everything you create. you may have the files, but they will always have the software. And the power to switch it off - month by month, and year by year by year. That's a lot of creative intellectual property hostage to fortune, not to mention Shantanu Narayen's rapacious desires for ever more money off the base.

80% of the Adobe customer base are not currently on Creative Cloud. This is an incredibly aggressive posture from adobe - they are literally screaming
"give me your bank details now - lets get that perpetual direct debit started"

you say - "is there no way to maintain the current licensing relationship?

they say - "shut up and give us the bank account number and sort code now. Right. NOW."

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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John Pale
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 2:27:53 pm

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, It feels wrong...but how different is it, really...

I mean...in practical terms...do we really own it now? I use it for a year...an upgrade comes out..I fork over some money..I never use the old disk or backup file of the previous version again. Sure, I "own" it, but what's it worth....??


But you raise an interesting point, I have not thought of......if I opt out...say, suddenly I go insane and decide to like editing on FCPX, and move to that full time...I can't easily revisit my old edits in PPRO without reacitivating my Creative Cloud Account...I can't just fire PPRO like I can fire up FCP 7 now when I need to revisit something I did a few years ago..without paying the piper... Not cool.

What happens to my CS6 when and if I "upgrade" to Creative Cloud? Do I not own that anymore?


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John Pale
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 2:32:02 pm

Oops. I see Dennis answered that in another thread....


"Chris, if you have an existing 'box' copy of CS6, that is still yours. If you started a creative cloud membership today, you would have access to CS6 apps and when the next version comes about, you would immediately have access to it. If your membership lapsed or you decided to stop, you would still have CS6 with you."


I guess that's a bit of a relief. But going forward...if I edit something in 7, I will never be able to open it without a Cloud membership. Adobe owns my ability to re-edit perpetually.


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Don Walker
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 2:43:26 pm

[John Pale] "Adobe owns my ability to re-edit perpetually."

Hey Dennis Radeke, can you go a couple of offices down the hall and see if Shantanu Narayen, would like to enter into the discussion to calm Aindreas' very legitimate concerns?
We all know what happens when Aindreas becomes angry with big corporations! (look what has happened to Apple's stock price...... Aindreas did that)
I really do wish that the 'nice friendly Adobe" would speak to this on the level.

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 2:38:34 pm

nope - you still own 6. Dennis clarified that, and in a way - seeing as how upgrade pricing expires after a single version now (or will by next rev) - you are pretty much on the treadmill either way.

But if, as you say, you shift in terms of what you are at at some point - all the work built up with the suite to that point is always still accessible to you, if you own the software - because that software fundamentally belongs to you.

If you go with the cloud - adobe control paid access to your files and creative work in perpetuity. I find that a very uncomfortable proposition somehow.

Plumbers don't rent their pliers. they own their toolbox for good reason - the tools represent their livelihood.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 18, 2013 at 2:48:21 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Plumbers don't rent their pliers. they own their toolbox for good reason - the tools represent their livelihood."

You should hang out in the camera department more often.

Because there are so many different tools, tool rental is a way of life as you simply can't afford to own all the tools.

Also, you might see things differently when you are staring at $250,000 worth of kit hanging from a pole and the wind picks up a bit, or the rain starts falling.

Creative Cloud is $60/mo. for a giant wad of industry standard tools. How bad can it really be?

I wish I could rent an Alexa for $60/mo. That would be amazing.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 20, 2013 at 12:10:10 am

yes - but to be precise about this - if you rent that Alexa, the product of your work is unbundled. The camera shot it clean out.

as in - here, in this case, the personal creative output is intrinsically tied to the originating hardware. ah but it's not hardware is it?
it's software? the mechanisms of the adobe software are entirely dissimilar to the optics, f-stops, shutter,
image adjustment, encoding and electronics originating content off the Alexa right?

Right?

tools - the origination and ownership - of entirely owned creative content in a software subscription model are a little murky.

Alexa renters don't end up with open ended Alexa watermarks.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jok Daniel
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 20, 2013 at 9:13:53 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "yes - but to be precise about this - if you rent that Alexa, the product of your work is unbundled. The camera shot it clean out."

Good point. The problem is not the subscription model, the problem is the lack of open and well documented file formats in the NLE space.

I am a "cloudie". The subscription model works for me, but CS6 is not my primary toolset. I mainly use Photoshop, Audition, Media Encoder and Bridge to support the work i do in Avid Media Composer. As long as I stick to standard file formats, I am fine with not owning the tools outright. But I would think twice before adopting a cloud licensed Premiere as my main NLE.


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Walter Soyka
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 20, 2013 at 11:18:32 am

[Jok Daniel] "The problem is not the subscription model, the problem is the lack of open and well documented file formats in the NLE space."

Pr has the same escape hatches that FCP did: EDL, AAF, and XML output.

Maybe outputting XML at the end of any project (from any app, not just Pr) is a worthwhile best practice.

Interestingly, a .prproj file is itself a flavor of XML.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 20, 2013 at 6:30:29 pm

[Walter Soyka] "[Jok Daniel] "The problem is not the subscription model, the problem is the lack of open and well documented file formats in the NLE space."

Pr has the same escape hatches that FCP did: EDL, AAF, and XML output.
"


Yes. Actually, the file formats have never been more open and more well-documented than they are now. Moving back and forth between MC and Pr or Pr and FCP 7 is stable and easy, especially if you use matching transitions and filters, like Avid FX and Boris Red. A decade ago, the ONLY real option was creating multiple passes on tape and ADAT, and an EDL.

Frankly, the degree interoperability between rival platforms is actually stunning. Yes, you might have to double check your speed changes, and a transition or two might need to be reset, but really, the seamlessness between NLEs has never been as tight. And with Pr now taking in DNx, I doubt it can get much tighter.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 20, 2013 at 12:57:41 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "yes - but to be precise about this - if you rent that Alexa, the product of your work is unbundled. The camera shot it clean out."

How often do you go on shoots or work in preproduction and production and create schedules?

I see your point, but its rarely that easy. Sure, if you have a nice and tidy production schedule, it's a clean package, but when the production schedule is a moving target, renting the gear is harder. I cannot download an Alexa for a last minute client request.

With the Cloud, you simply swipe your debit card and away you go.

I can't get behind this FUD, Aindreas. $60/mo is an incredible deal, is it not?

Sure, year over year, it's more expensive than the Production Premium updates, but you are getting more.

On the one hand, you seem to be extra mad at Apple for cutting off access to a very popular NLE, on the other, you are extra mad that you don't get your tools for free. This is a business, not a charity and I'm glad the folks at Adobe see value in thier own product.

Adobe is making commitments and seems to be structuring a fair deal with individual users, that allows near instant access to a broad range of media creation tools. The Adobe folks have said that there'll be a new version of the suite every year. That's not worth it to you?

And perhaps the deal structure will become more clear once we get official announcements from Adobe. The company has been extremely receptive this far, I can't imagine the bait and switch tactics that seem to be perpetuating on the internet would go over very well.

A $999 Avid license will get you 16 months of the Adobe Creative Suite. Is it really that dangerous?

And have you actually read a software EULA? You might think you "own" it, but really you are granted the right to use the software.

I provide a service when I'm working, Adobe is now going to provide one to me. I don't see as much harm in it, especially for individual users.


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David Lawrence
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 20, 2013 at 6:46:37 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "on the other, you are extra mad that you don't get your tools for free. This is a business, not a charity and I'm glad the folks at Adobe see value in thier own product. "

Huh??? No one's talking about getting tools for free. Just the opposite. Maybe you missed this? Three in a row. Just sayin.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 20, 2013 at 11:05:12 pm

I'm talking to Aindreas.

Three of what in a row?


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David Lawrence
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 21, 2013 at 12:59:54 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm talking to Aindreas. "

Yes, I know. Apologies for butting in. I was just taken aback by your statement:

[Jeremy Garchow] "On the one hand, you seem to be extra mad at Apple for cutting off access to a very popular NLE, on the other, you are extra mad that you don't get your tools for free. This is a business, not a charity and I'm glad the folks at Adobe see value in thier own product. "

I mean, come on. Really?

[Jeremy Garchow] "Three of what in a row?"

Three Futurerama clips in a row, all instantly thrown up in response to Dave McGavran's post about new Premiere Pro media management features

#1) http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/50917
#2) http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/50920
#3) http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/51005

The notion that anyone expects these tools for free is complete nonsense.

That's all I was pointing out.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 21, 2013 at 1:37:03 am

Aindreas is terrified of "direct debit".

[Aindreas Gallagher] "They're coming for all our bank accounts on direct debit for real."

My point is that it will cost $60 and you will have access to the software.

Let's just throw out the hypothetical that one might not be working every day.

So, a person can use it for 2 months for $120. Come back one month later and spend another $60.

That's $180 over four months.

You still own the project files, you still own the media, you just have to check in the software.

If you happen to be working all the time, it's a heck of a deal.

I liked it in to renting a camera. We do it all the time, so "renting" software doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

You have a job, you rent the camera and shoot, need to shoot again, rent the camera again. Need it for an extended period, rent for an extended period. At $720 (US pricing), you could even gain access to it for a whole year.

I just don't understand the amount of FUD present:

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Looks like they're really going to try and do it - force their entire customer base, at gun point, to hand over their private bank details and set up perpetual direct debits for hire purchase software that they will never own.

What's worse, if you think about it this way - the files, the personal output you create are your own right? but if for any reason the financial agreement is suspended - the personal intellectual copyright material you have created can never be opened or modified again. In effect - adobe are selling olive oil here - it sounds nice at the beginning, but you are incredibly at their mercy in the long run. If they ever decide to turn off your Creative Cloud oxygen, or there is a failure of any kind on the direct debit, all of the work you have created with that software is dead - it cannot even be opened, nevermind modified. Until adobe decide it can again.

they have direct control, for life, over everything you create. you may have the files, but they will always have the software. And the power to switch it off - month by month, and year by year by year. That's a lot of creative intellectual property hostage to fortune, not to mention Shantanu Narayen's rapacious desires for ever more money off the base.

80% of the Adobe customer base are not currently on Creative Cloud. This is an incredibly aggressive posture from adobe - they are literally screaming
"give me your bank details now - lets get that perpetual direct debit started"

you say - "is there no way to maintain the current licensing relationship?

they say - "shut up and give us the bank account number and sort code now. Right. NOW.""


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David Lawrence
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 21, 2013 at 2:01:24 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Aindreas is terrified of "direct debit"."

I'm not so fond of the idea either.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Let's just throw out the hypothetical that one might not be working every day.

So, a person can use it for 2 months for $120. Come back one month later and spend another $60.

That's $180 over four months.

You still own the project files, you still own the media, you just have to check in the software.

If you happen to be working all the time, it's a heck of a deal. "


You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with money.

As long as you have to "check in" with Adobe, Adobe owns access to your property. Maybe that's OK with you but it's unacceptable to me.

Here's another hypothetical. I spent most of December on an artist residency in Buenos Aires. It was awesome. My internet connection on the other hand, was not awesome. Maybe spotty at best. I also used to spend a lot of time in Costa Rica. Where I stayed we had electricity, but zero phone or internet connectivity. Why should my tools stop working in these places if I'm lucky to be able to be there for a couple months?

The rental model is inappropriate in these and many other situations.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I liked it in to renting a camera. We do it all the time, so "renting" software doesn't seem like a big deal to me. "

The problem with your analogy is that you don't need to keep renting the camera to play back the files you create with it. What if every time you wanted to play the video you created with the Alexa, you had to go rent the Alexa? That's what software rental makes you do.

The only reason software rental many not seem like a big deal is because the rental price is cheap (for now). Once you look at the cost in terms of access, ownership and lock-in, cheap suddenly isn't such a great deal.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 21, 2013 at 1:30:30 pm

[David Lawrence] "I'm not so fond of the idea either"

What are you worried or concerned about? If you buy a year, then it's like buying an update every year. At some point you have to give adobe money unless you pay cash for your software? I am genuinely curious about this. A good friend of mine often says, it's not about the money...but it's about the money.

[David Lawrence] "As long as you have to "check in" with Adobe, Adobe owns access to your property. Maybe that's OK with you but it's unacceptable to me."

Again, you should read a EULA and see exactly what "your property" entails, but only if you like to watch paint dry.

Adobe doesn't own your project files, media, or anything created with the suite. You have to pay them a fee for using their service, just like clients pay you and me a fee for our services.

Certainly, it is a bit of a new model with software, but this isn't a new business model. Walter Soyka pointed out many services used to run a business, the Adobe software might now be a part of it.

[David Lawrence] "Here's another hypothetical. I spent most of December on an artist residency in Buenos Aires. It was awesome. My internet connection on the other hand, was not awesome. Maybe spotty at best. I also used to spend a lot of time in Costa Rica. Where I stayed we had electricity, but zero phone or internet connectivity. Why should my tools stop working in these places if I'm lucky to be able to be there for a couple months?

The rental model is inappropriate in these and many other situations."


You are 100% correct in that the B.A is awesome. What a sweet gig!

As far as the software, this seems to be a bit more FUD. I hate that word, but it is accurate.

We all know, and Adobe has proven over and over, that the people at Adobe listen to their customers. Do you think that Adobe hasn't thought of situations like yours? Before we flag it as inappropriate, we should probably get all of the details. Dennis Raedke said that the details will be released on launch. He did not say the details won't be released at launch, so it seems to me that there might be something worth waiting for?

[David Lawrence] "The problem with your analogy is that you don't need to keep renting the camera to play back the files you create with it. What if every time you wanted to play the video you created with the Alexa, you had to go rent the Alexa? That's what software rental makes you do."

In this analogy, editing = shooting and the NLE = camera.

In order to shoot (edit), I need a camera (NLE).

I cannot shoot without a camera, so every time I need to shoot, I rent. It is a very common production business model.

[David Lawrence] "The only reason software rental many not seem like a big deal is because the rental price is cheap (for now). Once you look at the cost in terms of access, ownership and lock-in, cheap suddenly isn't such a great deal."

I see. So you are also worried the price is going to go up so much that it will price people out of the software?

We know the price. It's $49.99/mo as I type this (I thought it was $59.99 earlier) $600/year that is tax deductible. It's a pretty good deal and there's no roaming fees so you traveling to the B.A. won't cost you any more.


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David Lawrence
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 22, 2013 at 7:33:50 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "What are you worried or concerned about? If you buy a year, then it's like buying an update every year. At some point you have to give adobe money unless you pay cash for your software? I am genuinely curious about this. A good friend of mine often says, it's not about the money...but it's about the money. "

It's not about the money. Really.

It's about control.

Maybe I'm crazy, but the idea of another corporation with a direct debit hookup to my bank account just doesn't thrill me. I have zero interest in another monthly bill. Oh, and by the way, once I stop paying that bill, the tools I use to earn the money to pay all my bills self-destruct? Um, no thanks.

It really isn't about the money. Really.

If I were a facility-owner, no doubt I'd think about this differently, but I'm a freelancer. It's just me and my laptop. For me, NLE software is a capital equipment purchase and doesn't always happen every year. It doesn't need to. I skip years when the upgrades aren't useful for my needs. I catch up when the time is right for me. The important thing here is that I'm the one deciding. I need to be in charge of the timing of my capital equipment purchases.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Again, you should read a EULA and see exactly what "your property" entails, but only if you like to watch paint dry. "

EULA's have a rich history of being filled with unenforceable BS. EFF is a fantastic organization and great resource for learning more about EULA and digital rights in general. Highly recommended reading.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Adobe doesn't own your project files, media, or anything created with the suite. You have to pay them a fee for using their service, just like clients pay you and me a fee for our services.

Certainly, it is a bit of a new model with software, but this isn't a new business model. Walter Soyka pointed out many services used to run a business, the Adobe software might now be a part of it."


No, currently I pay them for their products. And after I've paid, I can use these products as I like in perpetuity.

Software tools are different than consumable services like cable TV, phone or internet services. This is because we depend on software tools not only for performing work, but also for accessing work. When a tool product becomes a tool service, access to work is controlled by the service provider. I'm not OK with that.

[Jeremy Garchow] "You are 100% correct in that the B.A is awesome. What a sweet gig!

As far as the software, this seems to be a bit more FUD. I hate that word, but it is accurate.

We all know, and Adobe has proven over and over, that the people at Adobe listen to their customers. Do you think that Adobe hasn't thought of situations like yours? Before we flag it as inappropriate, we should probably get all of the details. Dennis Raedke said that the details will be released on launch. He did not say the details won't be released at launch, so it seems to me that there might be something worth waiting for?"


Have you been to BA? It was my first time and everything about it - the place, the people and especially the project blew my mind. I'll save that for another thread ;)

Agree there's a lot of FUD and we need to wait and see. At the same time, I think the issues raised by folks like Tom Daigon, Aindreas and others in threads like this are very important and valuable. Adobe needs to hear what their customers think about their new business model, both the good and bad.

It's ironic that Adobe, a company I consider one of the best in the industry in terms of customer support and engagement, is facing this FUD by being secretive. Remember how well that worked out for that other A company?

I understand that they're possibly still figuring things out and don't pre-announce price/availability, but the fact that they first publicly confirmed then denied perpetual licensing doesn't make them look good and only adds to FUD.

So does this:





What an embarrassment.

If there were legal reasons for not answering, he might have made a statement to that effect. But no.

This video does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about the cloud. Just the opposite. If a decision is still being made, I think now's a good time to give feedback.

[Jeremy Garchow] "In this analogy, editing = shooting and the NLE = camera.

In order to shoot (edit), I need a camera (NLE).

I cannot shoot without a camera, so every time I need to shoot, I rent. It is a very common production business model. "


I'm looking at it slightly differently - not in terms of action, but in terms of output, i.e. work produced.

Camera -> produces media files
NLE -> produces project files

I rent the camera because it's relatively expensive and I don't use it often enough to buy.
I own the NLE software because it's relatively cheap and I use it every day.

After I make video with the camera, I can play it anywhere when I'm done. I no longer need the camera.
After I make a project with an NLE, I still need the NLE software to open and access the project.

In the software rental model, once I stop my rental subscription, my software stops working. I can no longer open my projects. Even if I've spent thousands of dollars over the years. In order to open my files I must always subscribe whether I want to or not. The subscription controls access to my work.

Imagine if your media files worked this way with cameras. By this analogy, in order to play back your files, you'd have to have the camera connected to your system as a dongle. Which means you'd have to either buy or rent the camera every time you wanted to play a file created with it.

If it sounds absurd, that's because it is. But that's exactly the scenario created by software rental.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I see. So you are also worried the price is going to go up so much that it will price people out of the software?

We know the price. It's $49.99/mo as I type this (I thought it was $59.99 earlier) $600/year that is tax deductible. It's a pretty good deal and there's no roaming fees so you traveling to the B.A. won't cost you any more."


No. It's not the price. I want to give Adobe my money.

It's about my software tools going poof after I've spent a couple thousand dollars and decide to sit out on upgrades for a year or two. Or going poof when I'm away from the internet for more than a month. Or going poof if I decide to go switch to a different NLE vendor. Once I spend the money, I need my tools to keep working so I can keep working.

As long as I have that option, I'm happy. But I have no interest in Adobe's new subscription business model. It's not right for my needs. And I'm not the only one who feels this way.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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facebook.com/dlawrence
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Chris Harlan
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 22, 2013 at 8:13:53 am

[David Lawrence] "No. It's not the price. I want to give Adobe my money.
"


I do get where you are coming from, and feel some of it to, though I did go for the cloud deal the other day. I would PREFER to own it, though I'll go along for now because it is offering some add-ons that I like.

This is the issue for me: Right now I like where Adobe is going, and I want to go along. But what happens if Adobe decides to go somewhere I don't want to go? If I've bought upgrades through CS8, but don't like CS 9, and I own CS 8, well, I can just stop. No need to upgrade, no need to follow along. I can just keep working with what I have. If I'm Clouding it, however, that option isn't as easy. Yes, I can not hit the update button, but I'd then be paying in perpetuity for something that was frozen in time.

To take it a little further, let's say its not about the software. Let's say its about the company. I like Adobe quite a bit right now, and I have no reason to think I won't in the future, as well, but the cloud-only scenario marries me to them in a way I'm not completely comfortable with. If it turns out that they have been enslaving Time Lords, clubbing with baby seals (I don't think Adobe would ever actually club baby seals), or are bought out by either Massive Dynamics or the Vogons, I want the opportunity to walk away without jeopardizing my work.


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Walter Soyka
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 22, 2013 at 1:19:16 pm

David, thanks for a very reasonable discussion on licensing models.

I see both sides of this issue: please remember that my favorite model is perpetual licensing plus maintenance subscription. I think that the perpetual licensing side on this debate is generally well-understood, and I think software as a service is not, so please forgive me if I seem too one-sided. I'm actually trying to balance the discussion.



[David Lawrence] "It's not about the money. Really. It's about control."

Then commercial software is not for you, and you should look into open source. You can't have total control of your destiny with a product unless you can build it yourself.

There's been some buzz here about Lightworks. Is there any news on a Lightworks source release?

Is anyone bothered by the fact that Lightworks Pro is only available as a subscription?



[David Lawrence] "I'm looking at it slightly differently - not in terms of action, but in terms of output, i.e. work produced. Camera -> produces media files; NLE -> produces project files. Imagine if your media files worked this way with cameras. By this analogy, in order to play back your files, you'd have to have the camera connected to your system as a dongle. Which means you'd have to either buy or rent the camera every time you wanted to play a file created with it. If it sounds absurd, that's because it is. But that's exactly the scenario created by software rental."

I think Jeremy's analogy holds. The ultimate output of the NLE is not the project file. A project file is just a means to an end. NLEs produce media files (your edited content), just the same as cameras do.

You don't need a licensed copy of Premiere to play back its output. You don't need the camera itself to play back its output. You do need a licensed copy of Premiere in order to edit (or re-edit). You do need the camera itself to shoot (or re-shoot).

That said, in addition to Premiere's playable rendered output, it also produces industry-standard EDL, AAF, and XML. There are escape hatches. Neither your media output nor even your edit decisions are locked in.




[David Lawrence] "Software tools are different than consumable services like cable TV, phone or internet services. This is because we depend on software tools not only for performing work, but also for accessing work. When a tool product becomes a tool service, access to work is controlled by the service provider. I'm not OK with that."

I don't know -- I can neither perform work nor access it without my electric service.

Not all services are fundamentally based on consumables. For example, my insurance policy is a service based on my exposure to risk and my insurer's capacity to absorb it. It's an ongoing bill, and much like Creative Cloud, its benefits to me are limited to the time I choose to pay for it. If I stop paying for it, both my "investment" in my policy (we would never call this an investment!) and my coverage goes poof.

With software as a service, the provider commits ongoing development resources in exchange for ongoing subscription fees. As long as I keep paying, I get the benefit of their continuing development. If I stop paying -- if I stop giving the developer the benefit they seek -- they stop giving me the benefit I seek.

We keep comparing our software tools to hardware tools, but as Tim Kolb eloquently pointed out here, this analogy doesn't really hold up.

We want to think of a license for an application as a tangible product that we can own, just like a physical pair of pliers. However, when there's an upgrade, we think that we bought something other than that tool, and that we're entitled to lower-cost upgrades to the new version. I'm pretty sure Snap-On would still charge me full price for Pliers 2013, even if I just bought Pliers 2012 the day before.

As a developer, a tool like an NLE and a tool like pliers are nothing alike. Formats change. Platforms change. Computational capabilities change. Client expectations change. All these things require constant change on the development side just to keep up, let alone actually advancing the state of the art. Adobe et al do not have the luxury of designing a tool once and selling it forever like a pair of pliers. The developers still have to show up the Monday after launch day and get busy on the next release. (That's a lie. It's not that simple. They were already busy on the next release.) Tools like Premiere, FCPX, MC, or Smoke see more advancement (and incur more cost) while their developers sleep than tools like pliers have seen in decades.

Business relationships need to be win-win. Any ongoing win-lose relationship will eventually turn into a lose-lose relationship.

If selling a bundle of applications as a product is a lose for Adobe (and I don't know if it is or it isn't), then it will inevitably turn into a lose for me. If they're not making enough money, or if their cash flow is too uneven, that's a real threat to some of my favorite tools. I'd rather find a win-win relationship so I can keep using the tools I prefer and they can keep building them, and maybe it's reasonable to explore subscription to do that.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Lawrence
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 22, 2013 at 11:42:58 pm

Great post, Walter. Thank you. Some more thoughts -

[Walter Soyka] "Then commercial software is not for you, and you should look into open source. You can't have total control of your destiny with a product unless you can build it yourself."

I know a lot of open-source purists but I'm not one of them. I've always believed there's a place for commercial software that both protects user rights and allows for sustainable business models. As you've pointed out, subscription-based software maintenance contracts are a perfect example.

I really like this model and would sign up for something like this from Adobe without hesitation. It's pure win-win.

[Walter Soyka] "The ultimate output of the NLE is not the project file. A project file is just a means to an end. NLEs produce media files (your edited content), just the same as cameras do."

While this is true, I think my point may be getting clouded because the work product (the project) is also used to create another work product (the final output).

Let me further simplify. If CS becomes a rental only service, that means everything in the suite is rental only, including Photoshop and Illustrator.

I use a camera to take a photo. I manipulate the photo in Photoshop adding layers and text. I send the finished Photoshop document to my colleague who needs it for their project. The Photoshop document is the finished product.

A simple yes/no question for Mr. Shantanu Narayen:
If I end my Creative Cloud subscription, will I still be able to open my Photoshop documents?

Without some form of perpetual licensing, the subscription becomes a dongle required to open your documents. To me, that's like saying the camera would be required as a dongle to open up the files made with the camera.

Do you see my analogy now?

[Walter Soyka] "That said, in addition to Premiere's playable rendered output, it also produces industry-standard EDL, AAF, and XML. There are escape hatches. Neither your media output nor even your edit decisions are locked in."

I wish these were true escape hatches. I'm glad they're there but the reality is that none offer the full fidelity of the native application. I had direct experience with the pitfalls just last week:

One of my clients wanted a quick turnaround redo of a video I made for them last June. This video was the first video I made after switching to Premiere. It was a UK version of a similar US version which was the last project I made in FCP Legacy. As it turned out, the new version required media from both projects. I tried XMLing the FCP into Premiere but even though it's a very simple project made entirely of animatic moves over stills, Premiere uses a completely different coordinate system. So every single motion parameter would have had to be reconstructed. Time was extremely tight to I decided to go the other way - from Premiere to FCP. There were fewer XML translation problems and it was a much faster path.

I haven't heard any mention of this, but I'm hoping XML translation is another thing that's much improved in CSNext.

BTW, going back to FCP was painful. Guess I've officially crossed the line, there's no going back.

[Walter Soyka] "I don't know -- I can neither perform work nor access it without my electric service."

Well, not exactly. Your electric service is a government regulated public utility. For a long time, so was your phone service. Your health insurance is now subject to new government controls and one day I hope we'll all have a public choice. I can't wait to fire my health insurance company. The only reason I'm with them is because of lock-in.

If Adobe wants to start acting like a utility service, they're welcome to being regulated like one. I doubt this is part of their business plan for Creative Cloud.

[Walter Soyka] "With software as a service, the provider commits ongoing development resources in exchange for ongoing subscription fees. As long as I keep paying, I get the benefit of their continuing development. If I stop paying -- if I stop giving the developer the benefit they seek -- they stop giving me the benefit I seek."

Yes, all true. But future development doesn't matter to everyone. When the tool is good enough, many people stop upgrading. I know many Photoshop users who are perfectly happy with CS5 and earlier. It's all they need to get their work done.

In fact, the forced lock-in of a subscription model might have the opposite effect on future innovation. If everyone has to subscribe to be able to open their documents, the incentive for compelling innovation decreases because users are locked-in. If upgrades are optional, the incentive for killer, must-have upgrades is greater, because you have to be so attractive, already content users will want to give you their money.

[Walter Soyka] "Business relationships need to be win-win. Any ongoing win-lose relationship will eventually turn into a lose-lose relationship.

If selling a bundle of applications as a product is a lose for Adobe (and I don't know if it is or it isn't), then it will inevitably turn into a lose for me. If they're not making enough money, or if their cash flow is too uneven, that's a real threat to some of my favorite tools. I'd rather find a win-win relationship so I can keep using the tools I prefer and they can keep building them, and maybe it's reasonable to explore subscription to do that."


I agree with this and much of what you said above regarding tools. But I do think digital tools and properties are a unique new form that neither our existing legal system nor our business models are fully ready for. There's a lot still in flux and everyone from dedicated individuals, to corporations to governments is angling for advantageous position.

Adobe has every right to experiment with new business models and I wish them success with Creative Cloud. But as a long time customer and recent convert to the Premiere Pro platform, I feel it's important for myself and others in my situation to be heard. As long as Adobe continues to offer us licensing choice, it will indeed be a win-win for all.

Thanks again for a terrific dialogue!

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 22, 2013 at 4:30:02 pm

[David Lawrence] "It's not about the money. Really."

Nope, it's about the money! :)

It's not about paying the actual amount (money), it's about how you have to pay (money) in order to use the software.

[David Lawrence] "For me, NLE software is a capital equipment purchase and doesn't always happen every year. It doesn't need to. I skip years when the upgrades aren't useful for my needs. I catch up when the time is right for me. The important thing here is that I'm the one deciding. I need to be in charge of the timing of my capital equipment purchases."

I hear that. But can't you figure that you buy a year's worth of Cloud service, and that's what it costs to run the business? You don't have to update when the updates come out. You can stay at the same version.

Do you use pay or any other services in your business? What makes this any different?

[David Lawrence] "I'm looking at it slightly differently - not in terms of action, but in terms of output, i.e. work produced."

OK, I see it as tools that I need to get a job done. I don't use a camera to playback files. I use a camera to capture images. I can't do it without it. I can playback files anywhere, I can produce files anywhere, I can't go out and shoot with an NLE.

[David Lawrence] "No, currently I pay them for their products. And after I've paid, I can use these products as I like in perpetuity.

Software tools are different than consumable services like cable TV, phone or internet services. This is because we depend on software tools not only for performing work, but also for accessing work. When a tool product becomes a tool service, access to work is controlled by the service provider. I'm not OK with that."


OK. So, I guess you have never paid for a service contract on software or licensed software the requires a yearly re-up.

I guess I am just used to it, and the value that Adobe is bringing to the table is tremendous. It's a great deal, and I don't see it as some big conspiracy, I see it as business.

[David Lawrence] "Have you been to BA? It was my first time and everything about it - the place, the people and especially the project blew my mind. I'll save that for another thread ;)"

Yessir. I wish I could make it back there regularly!

[David Lawrence] "Agree there's a lot of FUD and we need to wait and see. At the same time, I think the issues raised by folks like Tom Daigon, Aindreas and others in threads like this are very important and valuable. Adobe needs to hear what their customers think about their new business model, both the good and bad.

It's ironic that Adobe, a company I consider one of the best in the industry in terms of customer support and engagement, is facing this FUD by being secretive. Remember how well that worked out for that other A company?

I understand that they're possibly still figuring things out and don't pre-announce price/availability, but the fact that they first publicly confirmed then denied perpetual licensing doesn't make them look good and only adds to FUD."


But there really hasn't been an announcement about the licensing deals, yet. Everything is still on CS6 terms, I am sure that will change to CS Next terms, as folks from Adobe have said that they will release details when there are details to release. Maybe the legal terms aren't completely drawn up yet? Maybe the company wants to release the actual product with the new terms instead of releasing terms and then a product? There's reasons to keep secret, the biggest being is that there's nothing to release yet.

I am sure the folks at Adobe are reading the feedback, as it is something they are very diligent about, and I would trust that the preliminary feedback is being noted.

[David Lawrence] "What an embarrassment.

If there were legal reasons for not answering, he might have made a statement to that effect. But no.

This video does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about the cloud. Just the opposite. If a decision is still being made, I think now's a good time to give feedback."


I agree that feedback is good, and now is a decent time, but maybe things we be more clear once we have all the information?

I don't know why the CEO dodged the boxed pricing questions. Maybe he can't say, maybe he doesn't want to speak ill of the trade license or Australian government rules, I don't know. I'm sure there's a reason, I don't know if it's a good reason, but I am sure there's a reason why the question wasn't answered directly, and perhaps it has to do with public perception.

It's big business, and people do and say weird shit in big business, especially in a global economy.

[David Lawrence] "It's about my software tools going poof after I've spent a couple thousand dollars and decide to sit out on upgrades for a year or two. Or going poof when I'm away from the internet for more than a month. Or going poof if I decide to go switch to a different NLE vendor. Once I spend the money, I need my tools to keep working so I can keep working.

As long as I have that option, I'm happy. But I have no interest in Adobe's new subscription business model. It's not right for my needs. And I'm not the only one who feels this way.
"


It is in these details that haven't been talked about in full quite yet. These are the details that we need from Adobe. To spend a couple thousand bucks on the Cloud as an individual user, you'd have to pay in for more than 3 years at full price, and this is something you use every single day.

I have a better understanding of a bit of your concern now, thank you.


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David Lawrence
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 23, 2013 at 12:23:15 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Nope, it's about the money! :)

It's not about paying the actual amount (money), it's about how you have to pay (money) in order to use the software."


lol, well ultimately everything's about money, sex or power, right? ;)

[Jeremy Garchow] "I hear that. But can't you figure that you buy a year's worth of Cloud service, and that's what it costs to run the business? You don't have to update when the updates come out. You can stay at the same version.

Do you use pay or any other services in your business? What makes this any different?"


Sure, the main difference is let's say I've paid $1000+ and I want to take a break. Right now the software keeps working as long as I keep my system. I don't have to keep paying for the privilege of using an old version. Remember, I'm still using a late-2008 MacBook Pro. I'm in bad need of an upgrade and will probably pull the trigger this year with the Rev2 Retina. But I like to squeeze my gear till it's dry! ;)

[Jeremy Garchow] "OK, I see it as tools that I need to get a job done. I don't use a camera to playback files. I use a camera to capture images. I can't do it without it. I can playback files anywhere, I can produce files anywhere, I can't go out and shoot with an NLE."

Got it, fair enough.

[Jeremy Garchow] "OK. So, I guess you have never paid for a service contract on software or licensed software the requires a yearly re-up.

I guess I am just used to it, and the value that Adobe is bringing to the table is tremendous. It's a great deal, and I don't see it as some big conspiracy, I see it as business."


Yep, just a difference in perspective. I'm way smaller. I always buy, own and depreciate it over time. If I were in your shoes I'm sure I'd see things differently.

Also, I have a radar that's highly tuned into digital rights issues and I think it's important to call out any changes that might be detrimental. I don't trust big business to protect my digital rights. So while Adobe marketing rightly likes to talk about the benefits of the Cloud, I think it's also important to discuss the DRM and lock-in consequences.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Yessir. I wish I could make it back there regularly!"

Sweet! ;) Me too!

[Jeremy Garchow] "But there really hasn't been an announcement about the licensing deals, yet. Everything is still on CS6 terms, I am sure that will change to CS Next terms, as folks from Adobe have said that they will release details when there are details to release. Maybe the legal terms aren't completely drawn up yet? Maybe the company wants to release the actual product with the new terms instead of releasing terms and then a product? There's reasons to keep secret, the biggest being is that there's nothing to release yet.

I am sure the folks at Adobe are reading the feedback, as it is something they are very diligent about, and I would trust that the preliminary feedback is being noted."


Yes, agreed. That's why speaking out now is important.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I agree that feedback is good, and now is a decent time, but maybe things we be more clear once we have all the information?... It's big business, and people do and say weird shit in big business, especially in a global economy."

Absolutely! Things will become clear soon.

[Jeremy Garchow] "It is in these details that haven't been talked about in full quite yet. These are the details that we need from Adobe. To spend a couple thousand bucks on the Cloud as an individual user, you'd have to pay in for more than 3 years at full price, and this is something you use every single day.

I have a better understanding of a bit of your concern now, thank you."


Yes. These details are key. Once we hear from Adobe, any FUD will hopefully evaporate. But until then, remember, even though the the current Cloud cost is fantastic deal, nothing guarantees it will stay that way in the future except user acceptance.

You're welcome and thank you Jeremy!

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 24, 2013 at 4:34:16 pm

[David Lawrence] "[Jeremy Garchow] "Nope, it's about the money! :)

It's not about paying the actual amount (money), it's about how you have to pay (money) in order to use the software."

lol, well ultimately everything's about money, sex or power, right? ;)"


Absolutely.







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Dan Stewart
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 2:36:10 pm

Perhaps this is a response to being on the most pirated of all time charts so consistently.
But I think it's just going to cause them a torrent of new problems..



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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 3:09:10 pm

SaaS makes a lot of sense for software companies. The benefits for the end user are questionable. However, if the model is not specifically tailored to the market it is being pitched to, it is unlikely to have any impact at all.

As I mentioned on the other thread, I'm in India, and piracy is a huge problem here. You are not going to make people stop pirating software when the 'deal' you're offering is what it currently is - around 1000 USD annually, payable upfront per license. This is absolutely the wrong way to go about combating piracy. Price it sensibly or nothing changes.

A week after release I will be able to walk down the street and pick up a copy of the entire suite for the price of a sandwich and a coffee.

I have an anecdote for Adobe - A big design house was raided last year by the Indian Police/Anti-Piracy Branch. They found multiple copies of unlicensed software, chief among them Adobe products. What did they do? They shook down the Directors of the design house for around 1000 USD. That's a little more than the cost of 1 Photoshop license here.

This is what Software Companies are dealing with - corruption through out the system.

For those of us who actually run our businesses legally, this new model makes no sense at all. AND the current pricing structure is not going to entice ANY of those companies/individuals pirating your software to go straight.

On a personal note, as an editor who does mainly agency driven work with a Flame/Quantel finish, I get all my design elements from other vendors. I ask them to give me everything in layers and I comp them in FCP or these days Smoke. So I have been satisfied with my Pixelmator license for more than 2 years (on the rare occasions when I've had to do something). And I have never had an issue with any vendor refusing to give me layer exports.

I would question however, how many of the assets I've received over the years have been generated on licensed Photoshop/Illustrator/AE seats.

Personally, I have had no pressing need to invest in the Creative Suite, but I was tempted to consider Premiere as an alternate to FCPX. This ridiculous new subscription model - hey pay us approximately a 1000 bucks upfront each year if you want to have access to your work ensures that that is not going to happen.


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David Lawrence
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 4:31:39 pm

[Sandeep Sajeev] "For those of us who actually run our businesses legally, this new model makes no sense at all. AND the current pricing structure is not going to entice ANY of those companies/individuals pirating your software to go straight."

Well said.

I'm glad folks are realizing that in the end, software rental is really about DRM, not saving money. And it's a well known fact that DRM punishes legitimate customers rather than stopping piracy.

Forcing radical change on their entire customer base will not go over well. Adobe needs to be very careful.

_______________________
David Lawrence
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Steve Connor
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 4:49:54 pm

[David Lawrence] "Forcing radical change on their entire customer base will not go over well. Adobe needs to be very careful."

Which is why it's relevant for users to express their opinions about this possibility, Adobe clearly listens so if they are considering this then a groundswell of opinion might actually stop it happening.

If we had known that Apple would EOL FCP Legend a month or two beforehand then at least they would have heard the protests against it. Probably wouldn't have made any difference though!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Craig Seeman
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 5:12:43 pm

[Steve Connor] "If we had known that Apple would EOL FCP Legend a month or two beforehand then at least they would have heard the protests against it. Probably wouldn't have made any difference though!"

One would wish it could have. Even two simple changes would have eased the situation.

Apple could have said although it's EOL they will continue to sell it for those who need more seats (Shake was still on sale for some time after EOL IIRC).

It might have been better marketing to include a free copy of FCPX for those purchasing FCS3 after EOL. Those buying FCS3 might feel they were getting a "seed to the future" knowing that while FCPX was very much professional "incomplete" they'd see the new thing grow. Two years later it would be much easier to consider moving to it.

Of course newbies, not willing to spring for FCS3 for $1K would be able to buy FCPX for $299.

This would have covered some of the bases through the transition. Perhaps if Apple had been hit upside the head before it blew up, they would have developed a transition plan. Not a change in course, mind you, but just a way to handle it in the professional community and keep customers in the process.



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Herb Sevush
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 5:17:24 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Perhaps if Apple had been hit upside the head before it blew up, they would have developed a transition plan. Not a change in course, mind you, but just a way to handle it in the professional community and keep customers in the process."

If the past is prologue, this is the point where both Tim Wilson and Bill Davis are supposed to chime in with the opinion that the FCPX release was brilliant, totally successful and couldn't be improved upon. I, on the other hand, agree with your statement, which means you've gone over to the dark side.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 5:42:27 pm

[Herb Sevush] " I, on the other hand, agree with your statement, which means you've gone over to the dark side."

I've been down on Apple's marketing for some time. Even when FCPX was released I pointed out how it was the exception to every other transition Apple has ever done. It's now going on two years and there's still virtually no significant marketing or PR beyond their "In Action" page.

Sometimes a personal word and a hand shake is good marketing. I had some hope when I saw them at the Blackmagic road show in early 2012 but there's been nothing like that since then.



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David Lawrence
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 8:23:26 pm

[Steve Connor] "Which is why it's relevant for users to express their opinions about this possibility, Adobe clearly listens so if they are considering this then a groundswell of opinion might actually stop it happening."

Agreed.

The other thing that we need to keep in mind is that we post-production professionals here at the COW represent a just a tiny slice of the global industry that relies on Creative Suite.

Adobe Creative Suite tools are the de facto standard for the entire digital media industry at all levels. I cannot imagine Adobe management would try to force such a radical licensing change on everyone in the world who uses Adobe tools. The blowback would be ungodly. It would make the blowback Microsoft got when they recently tried something similar with Office 2013/365 look like a tea party.

Then again, as much as I'm in complete awe of what Adobe engineers and product managers have achieved in two product cycles, I don't put it past Marketing and Senior Management to completely F things up.

Please Adobe, don't blow it. We want to give you our money. Please give us a choice.

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David Lawrence
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Steve Connor
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 9:46:37 pm

The suggestion to post your concerns directly to Adobe was also mentioned by an Adobe employee over on the PPro forum.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 9:54:49 pm

yep - althoouuugh - that is the go/wish feature request thing.

It would feel almost weird to be like - hey! my wish is you don't ask to start a direct debit with me.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 9:53:01 pm

[David Lawrence] "Please Adobe, don't blow it. We want to give you our money. Please give us a choice."

exactly - I want to give them money every year for a really really long time and go out and eulogise the living hell out of premiere, so its mostly all I ever have to edit on.

I just don't think I'm ready to go hire purchase. Lots of people have made really good points about this - and in truth I'm occasionally swayed.

Lead me with carrots and who knows where I'll end up. It's just the notion of a perpetual license shut off and what that would imply in terms of long term motivation at the board level that would freak me completely out.

As you say - adobe have effectively worked miracles over these two releases - particularly in premiere - AE is completely hulked out as well.

carrots. thats all it will take - carrots and a few product cycles. better to lead a child with sugar and all that.
Try the other way and the baby's head is liable to turn three sixty revolutions and start spitting out rabies froth.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Greg Andonian
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 10:45:01 pm

[Steve Connor] Which is why it's relevant for users to express their opinions about this possibility, Adobe clearly listens so if they are considering this then a groundswell of opinion might actually stop it happening.

Yeah, companies might very well change their mind on a big decision if they know it's not very popular with the end users. Like that time Avid decided they were going to leave the Mac platform and go Windows-only. I don't remember it first hand but from what I hear it caused quite a stir- and Avid ended up "backpedaling all the way to Tewksbury", as one account I saw of the situation put it...

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Mark Dobson
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 2:51:49 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "What's worse, if you think about it this way - the files, the personal output you create are your own right? but if for any reason the financial agreement is suspended - the personal intellectual copyright material you have created can never be opened or modified again."

Aindreas - I agree with you!

It's not only the financial agreement it's also dependent on having an ongoing online connection. I simply can't see, even in the advanced capitalist sector of the world we live in, how Adobe can justify this business model.

Could this be a direction that Apple could expand upon?


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Walter Soyka
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 2:57:17 pm

[Mark Dobson] "It's not only the financial agreement it's also dependent on having an ongoing online connection. I simply can't see, even in the advanced capitalist sector of the world we live in, how Adobe can justify this business model."

I understand and sympathize with the concern that if you stop subscribing, you can no longer open old projects.

However, there are also a lot of misconceptions about Creative Cloud, and the "ongoing online connection" is among them.

From the Creative Cloud FAQ [link]:
Do I need ongoing Internet access to use my Creative Suite applications?
Because your Creative Suite applications are installed directly on your computer, you will not need an ongoing Internet connection to use them on a daily basis. However, you will need to be online when you install and license your software, and at least once every 30 days thereafter. The software will alert you when you need to connect to the Internet for a license status check.


Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Mark Dobson
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 3:01:09 pm

[Walter Soyka] "From the Creative Cloud FAQ [link]:
Do I need ongoing Internet access to use my Creative Suite applications?
Because your Creative Suite applications are installed directly on your computer, you will not need an ongoing Internet connection to use them on a daily basis. However, you will need to be online when you install and license your software, and at least once every 30 days thereafter. The software will alert you when you need to connect to the Internet for a license status check."


So on top of checking whether your payment has hit their account they need to check the licence status as well? They are getting as bossy as the UK Government.


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Walter Soyka
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 3:03:53 pm

[Mark Dobson] "So on top of checking whether your payment has hit their account they need to check the licence status as well? "

That's kind of how the whole thing works. When you pay for a month, they validate your license for the month. If you don't pay the next month, last month's license naturally expires and they don't re-authorize a new one.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 3:18:10 pm

[Walter Soyka] "That's kind of how the whole thing works. When you pay for a month, they validate your license for the month. If you don't pay the next month, last month's license naturally expires and they don't re-authorize a new one.
"


that is no way to live frankly. I challenge anyone making their living in post to say they actually like the sound of that.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 4:48:20 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] " I challenge anyone making their living in post to say they actually like the sound of that."

I go back and forth. It doesn't feel right. But on the other hand, let's say I go to Avid-land for a two year project, and have no real need to touch CS for that time, when I come back I can opt in to the suite for a month or a year and be right at the current version. I've got my old copy of 6 to do small things, and can get a single month in case of an emergency. Then, there are the cloud add-ons that I have yet to evaluate. So, I can't say I'd love it, but I can't say I'd hate it.


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Walter Soyka
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 6:38:00 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that is no way to live frankly. I challenge anyone making their living in post to say they actually like the sound of that."

I'm kind of indifferent. I've been using a Cloud license for the last year, and it's been fine. It's always just worked, I use the Cloud-only Illustrator "collect files" feature often, and I've been able to move my license freely across Macs and PCs. Now I do still have the security blanket of a few perpetual licenses here, too, so maybe that colors my perception, but I may ultimately replace those with pay-as-you-go to save money when I'm not using them.

Realistically, I can't skip an upgrade. I have to stay up-to-date in order to play nicely with others. Whether I pay a big chunk every year for an upgrade or 12 little chunks every month for subscriptions, I'm still paying and there's no end in sight.

I pay rent for my office space every month. I pay my power and utility bills. I pay my Internet provider. I pay my phone bills. I pay my web host. I pay Google Apps for Business. I pay Dropbox. I pay Vimeo. I pay FedEx.

There are actually very few things I need to run my business that I can truly own or control. A perpetual software license will do me no good if my power goes out, or my Internet goes down, or bad weather delays FedEx and I can't deliver my work.

If paying Adobe monthly for a service instead of yearly for a product gets me better software, maybe I can get ok with that, too.

I hope Creative Cloud won't be the only licensing option, but practically speaking, I could run my business on it.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 6:45:27 pm

look walter - the important thing is that ten or eleven guys on a forum completely freak out - whatever madness adobe have planned... in, er, three weeks time,
that is certain to stop it dead in its tracks.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 7:27:46 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "look walter - the important thing is that ten or eleven guys on a forum completely freak out - whatever madness adobe have planned... in, er, three weeks time,
that is certain to stop it dead in its tracks."


Here's a list of things I support:

Perpetual licenses
Creative Cloud
Perpetual licenses plus maintenance contracts
People deciding that subscription isn't right for them
Ten or eleven guys on a forum completely freaking out in order to stop madness dead in its tracks


Here's a list of things I can't get behind:

People spreading misinformation
People deciding that because subscription isn't right for them, it can't be right for anyone

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 6:47:52 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I pay rent for my office space every month."

But you can pack your boxes and move to another office and open them.
You currently can't open your Premiere Pro or After Effects Projects in other programs if you decide to move.

The fundamental problem with the Cloud is that if you terminate, you cease to have access to some of your material that can only be opened in the program you no longer have access to.



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Walter Soyka
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 7:13:35 pm

[Craig Seeman] "The fundamental problem with the Cloud is that if you terminate, you cease to have access to some of your material that can only be opened in the program you no longer have access to."

I do really, truly understand this point. I appreciate the principled stance against software as a service. And I'm not a total subscription apologist. My preferred model is perpetual licensing plus maintenance contracts.

My point is that I'm not really "free" even with perpetual licensing.

If I stop buying perpetual upgrades, I will lose the ability to do new work, because I need to maintain interoperability with other people who will have the latest version. Put another way, what on earth could I accomplish today in 2013 with a license of CS2?

Either way, cloud or perpetual, software licensing will be an ongoing expense for my business -- indefinitely.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 7:20:34 pm

[Craig Seeman] "[Walter Soyka] "I pay rent for my office space every month."

But you can pack your boxes and move to another office and open them.
You currently can't open your Premiere Pro or After Effects Projects in other programs if you decide to move.

The fundamental problem with the Cloud is that if you terminate, you cease to have access to some of your material that can only be opened in the program you no longer have access to.
"


Yes, but you can easily get the access back. A lot of it probably depends on your need to go back to old material, as well. Mine isn't that great. My preference would be to have a perpetual, but I most likely will not walk away from Adobe if they go all Cloud. I do think it might hinder Premiere's adoption, however.


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Richard Cardonna
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 3:27:45 pm

The door adobe puts in your computer to enter it everymonth is a door that will can be hacked by some gifted hacker and many things can come in or out of your system.

I dont have my system connected to the internet nor will they ever.

I download on another computer or purchase a disk.

Richard


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Walter Soyka
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 3:38:16 pm

[Richard Cardonna] "The door adobe puts in your computer to enter it everymonth is a door that will can be hacked by some gifted hacker and many things can come in or out of your system."

Richard, this has no basis in fact.

Adobe does not go into your computer every month.

The software won't run without a valid license.

Your computer goes out to an Adobe authentication server and requests a license for the next month, exactly the same way it does when you install and authorize a perpetual license, or when you install and authorize an application from Apple's App Store.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Gary Huff
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 10:45:11 pm

[Richard Cardonna] "The door adobe puts in your computer to enter it everymonth is a door that will can be hacked by some gifted hacker and many things can come in or out of your system."

My primary editing system has been on the Internet for years.

Never been hacked.


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andy lewis
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 3:34:56 pm

Subscription is bad for consumers in the long run because it makes you less likely to change to a competitor. If you decide to jump ship next year, you'll still have to pay adobe a subscription just to be able to open old projects - maybe for years. So you're more likely to just stick with adobe even if things go downhill. Changing to FCPX (for example) will mean paying for both systems - including plugins and third party stuff, possibly indefinitely.

Disincentives to leave a platform mean less pressure on the company to innovate and iterate.

This is why you get such shitty service from your bank. It's such a pain to change banks that people put up with it.


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Mark Dobson
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 3:36:41 pm

[Walter Soyka] "That's kind of how the whole thing works. When you pay for a month, they validate your license for the month. If you don't pay the next month, last month's license naturally expires and they don't re-authorize a new one."


Yes - I understand that. There are 2 ways of doing it either on a rolling month to month basis which is considerably more than on a yearly ( pay monthly ) agreement.

If you decide to stop the yearly contract before it's conclusion you need to pay 50% of the remaining balance.

If you take out an annual agreement and then decide that you want to buy the product you will not get any reduction and you will need to pay 50% of the outstanding yearly agreement.

If you live in the UK you pay Irish VAT? What- does that mean that they are avoiding UK Corporate Tax rules?


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Shane Ross
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 5:15:50 pm

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Adobe goes bankrupt. Or they get bought up by someone and shut down. Whatever the reason, Adobe goes away. What then? Your "cloud" software is now gone. Servers down, company gone...projects useless, because the software is now inert.

Yes, that's a wild hypothetical, but still a possibility. And no, I don't like CLOUD ONLY either. Even if I pay more, I like buying it outright. Owning it. Having it available on an old system if I need to.

I like Andreas' analogy...I want to own my hammer, not rent it. Doesn't matter if I keep getting new hammers every time one comes out. I want to own my hammer.

I like that the cloud is an optional thing...great way to save money. But the ONLY way? No straight buys? No...that's a bad idea. This is something that looks GREAT to the suits in charge of the money. But it is a bad idea for the people who use the tool. If this is the only option out there...I will be tempted to look at other options.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Herb Sevush
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 5:23:59 pm

[Shane Ross] "If this is the only option out there...I will be tempted to look at other options."

Agreed.

On the other hand I can see positive value for an organization to have one perpetual license and then be able to supplement that with cloud versions for as many additional seats as you needed for as long as you needed. It would make a facility extremely flexible to be able to expand and then contract on a project by project basis, but only so long as there was one perpetual license to anchor the whole flow.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 7:38:19 pm

[Herb Sevush] "On the other hand I can see positive value for an organization to have one perpetual license and then be able to supplement that with cloud versions for as many additional seats as you needed for as long as you needed. It would make a facility extremely flexible to be able to expand and then contract on a project by project basis, but only so long as there was one perpetual license to anchor the whole flow."

Agreed. This seems like one of the ideal scenarios for a subscription model.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Dan Stewart
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 4:12:31 pm

Thinking some more about this - have Adobe created a situation where it is professionally irresponsible NOT to have a pirated 'offline' copy in the office?



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Craig Seeman
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 3:42:21 pm

I'm surprised some people are just realizing this.
If for any reason you terminate the monthly subscription you can no longer open your projects.

Yes, internet service is an issue, even if they have a contingency to prevent instant cutoff. The problem is if you have some sort of banking issue it's conceivable that you may not realize until after the contingency period.

Ultimately if you decide to leave the fold you'd have to "buy out" the complete Suite so you leave with a licensed copy.

Basically you are addicted for life otherwise. Obviously that's good for Adobe. Of course for many this will make no difference if they are happy with Adobe evermore.

With some irony we see elements of the market moving in the opposite direction with cell carriers moving to unsubsidized and no contract options and, sometimes, unlocked phones.

The question some may have is whether Adobe will always offer the "buy out" option of paying for the entire suite should one decide to terminate. At the moment they do. Like any corporation they have the right to change their options.

This is why I "trust" no company.



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Walter Soyka
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 3:57:35 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Yes, internet service is an issue, even if they have a contingency to prevent instant cutoff. The problem is if you have some sort of banking issue it's conceivable that you may not realize until after the contingency period."

From the Creative Cloud FAQ [link]:
If my membership expires or I decide to cancel it, how do I restart it?
If your month-to-month or annual membership is stopped due to an issue with billing your credit card, you will be notified by email and your software will display an alert that your membership has been suspended. If it has been less than six months since your membership ended, simply navigate to the Account page on http://www.creativecloud.com and make any required updates to your billing information to restart it. If it has been more than six months, you will need to buy a new membership.


I do understand the arguments against the whole concept of software-as-a-service, but Adobe's implementation seems to be pretty well thought-out.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 4:30:01 pm

I think, as Dennis alluded to, we should probably wait for an official release with official details.

Before we start jumping to big giant conclusions.

Jeremy


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Herb Sevush
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 4:40:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "we should probably wait for an official release with official details. Before we start jumping to big giant conclusions."

But that is so un-like us, isn't it. If we started acting like adults now, after all this time, then we wouldn't need this forum.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 4:42:12 pm

[Herb Sevush] "But that is so un-like us, isn't it. If we started acting like adults now, after all this time, then we wouldn't need this forum."

I see your point!


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TImothy Auld
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 5:10:05 pm

Well, I guess I'm the crash test dummy here as I'm downloading the apps now. They do give you thirty days to run it into the ground and see what happens. If you cancel before that they refund the month. So nothing to lose really (I hope.)

Tim


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 5:59:44 pm

yes precisely - there's nothing quite like climbing into my nappie before I walk in.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig Seeman
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 5:35:35 pm

[Walter Soyka] "you will be notified by email and your software will display an alert that your membership has been suspended."

A lot of good that will do you if you have both a banking and an internet problem. The email you'll never get. Maybe a phone call would help more.



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Shane Ross
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 5:18:12 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Ultimately if you decide to leave the fold you'd have to "buy out" the complete Suite so you leave with a licensed copy."

THAT'S the issue. You won't be able to "buy out" and get a full copy at full price. IF they go Creative Cloud only..

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Craig Seeman
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 5:46:34 pm

[Shane Ross] "THAT'S the issue. You won't be able to "buy out" and get a full copy at full price. IF they go Creative Cloud only.."

So Apple isn't the only company we don't trust? Again, I don't trust any of these companies.



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Shane Ross
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 5:49:52 pm

[Craig Seeman] "So Apple isn't the only company we don't trust?"

Avid screwed us hard in the past. And now they are on financially shaky ground. Apple is solid, financial wise, but seems to be aiming at different editors than my group. Adobe has always been decent, but their licensing lately has been tricky. But they are also the most pirated software out there. I HOPE they don't do this....

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Andrew Kimery
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 6:07:25 pm

If worse comes to worse and Adobe goes belly up, or something significantly dire happens, then just download a hack for the software. Online distribution will stop the people that buy one copy and install it on multiple machines but it won't stop the people that download hacks/hacked versions from P2P. Heck, within 2 days of FCPX being released there were hacked copies floating around P2P networks that you just downloaded and ran like normal.




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TImothy Auld
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 6:35:52 pm

That, I think, is stealing.

Tim


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Dan Stewart
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 6:55:05 pm

Welcome to the 21st Century. Fact is people can get your film/software for FREE RIGHT NOW on a SILVER PLATTER. Charging the legit people more, or making their lives more difficult, is only going to make things worse.
I don't know what the answer is, but a grand a year with no security and no ownership doesn't feel like it to me..



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TImothy Auld
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 8:33:09 pm

I don't care what century it is, it is still stealing. Because everyone steals is it OK?

Tim


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David Lawrence
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 8:42:51 pm

[TImothy Auld] "I don't care what century it is, it is still stealing. Because everyone steals is it OK?"

That's one way of looking at it, here's another:






_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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TImothy Auld
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 11:25:33 pm

Well, of course, I never thought of it in that context. Everybody owns everything! Thanks for clarifying this. If someone would let the lawyers in on this we might have a perfect world. (Tongue held very tightly in cheek.)

Tim


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Andrew Kimery
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 8:24:42 pm

[TImothy Auld] "That, I think, is stealing."

I'm just saying that in the worst case scenario of all our Creative Cloud apps failing to launch because the 'phone home' servers have been turned off there will be workarounds so users can open their projects and migrate out what they need.

I really doubt that we'll get to a point where overnight Adobe, and all of it's IP, ceases to exist thus leaving everyone stunned like Baltimore when the Colts moved to Indy.




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Rich Rubasch
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 9:15:00 pm

Adobe actually called me while I was reading this! I pointed out the issues discussed here. I'm on the fence. Especially at a time when there is no clear winner in editing software...we are sitting on four FCP 7 seats. I have four Adobe Production Premium CS6 seats as well but have not turned on Premier yet with so many legacy projects.

The dust has not fully settled and Adobe is listening.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 10:15:14 pm

I just had a discussion with a client of mine who has been on FCP since it started. He was discussing it with Adobe on the phone yesterday, and came away from it not quite ready to make the jump. He sees the benefits of the software (PPro and AE), but he's not yet sure whether the payment structure will benefit him in the long run. So he's going to wait until the dust settles...in my opinion, a good idea...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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TImothy Auld
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 17, 2013 at 11:48:19 pm

Indeed. From my perspective Adobe has thirty days. If they can prove their worth to me in those thirty days then I'll stay with them. If not...

Tim


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Richard Cardonna
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 18, 2013 at 12:06:35 am

You are testing cs6, cs7 is a different animal if it where to be available.

Richard


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 18, 2013 at 12:32:08 am

[Richard Cardonna] "You are testing cs6, cs7 is a different animal if it where to be available."

Fcpx is a different animal from fcp 7. Pr CS6 and Pr CS Next appear to be very very closely related. CS Next appears to be higher functioning than its CS6 roots.

What you learn in cs6, I'm sure, won't go to waste.


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Richard Cardonna
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 18, 2013 at 12:49:07 am

True but there a lot of things in cs7 that specialy appeals to xfcp users.Thas what i was trying to say.

Richard


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Chris Harlan
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 18, 2013 at 2:20:02 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "What you learn in cs6, I'm sure, won't go to waste.
"


Agreed.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 18, 2013 at 2:03:38 am

Gentlemen,

I would truly like to reply in full to each of your posts but on top of travel, post NAB madness and the normal insane life of an Adobe rep, I cannot at this time do that.

Suffice it for this time, I would note that several things pointed out in this thread are partially or wholly incorrect or misleading. We understand that there is concern out there but I would advise everyone to wait until all of the facts are out there before you come to any conclusions. Walter is doing a great job of pointing to the rather extensive FAQ on Creative Cloud and I would reiterate what Adobe has been doing for a while - listening to customers.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Carsten Orlt
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 18, 2013 at 3:40:58 am

Adobe is a business. If they can charge double or in any other way make more money out of you they will. They did for years in Aus charging insanely higher prices without any reason.

This goes for Apple too. If they thought they could get more they would.

And for Adobe listening. I think there is a lot of spin in this like this money example shows. They listen as much as they have to to make a buck out of you.

I think people should stop treating software companies as a personal friend that is out there to help them personally and only strives to listen to the individual. Adobe is listening because Apple gave them an opening, and will only do as much as that is helping to sell software.

It's a business. Treat them like one.


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Craig Seeman
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 18, 2013 at 3:51:01 am

And that's why I don't "trust" any of them. They will make decision in the interest of their business.
But so will I. That's why I keep mentioning ROI when I look at things. I look at the value of the purchase (or rental) and how quickly I can cover that cost. Since the price of NLEs have dropped overall, it's generally much easier to cover the costs.



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Carsten Orlt
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 18, 2013 at 4:37:55 am

[Craig Seeman] " I look at the value of the purchase (or rental) and how quickly I can cover that cost."

Exactly :-)

And it's the reason why the Apple model works for me so much better.

But I'm a single person shop that doesn't need to react to what customers want. I dictate the NLE. So if you are under customer pressure to supply a certain NLE you might not have the choice.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: **Danger Will Robinson** **Danger Will Robinson**
on Apr 18, 2013 at 10:52:31 am

fair enufski

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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