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NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters

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Craig Seeman
NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 3:43:05 pm

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/nab-2013-distilled/

I very good observation on NLE at NAB. I do think there's more to say on this though:

The trouble is Apple gets in its own way due to corporate secrecy.

To me, it's not so much the secrecy but the near non existent marketing. Even touting the current feature set would be a good step forward... that Apple doesn't do.

Currently their marketing seems limited to "self discovery." There's nothing more than Apple's "In Action" pages and, apparently, their interaction with the press doesn't go further than "we're staying the course" (yes, an unknown course).

Advanced Editors and Facility Managers need to be shown advantages an FCXP workflow would bring. That would involved direct in depth presentation (not dog and pony show) and discussion (the kind that helps editors and managers make big long term financial decisions).

Even deep first hand accounts (non "In Action" gloss) by those facilities that have moved to FCPX (and there are a number and, while small, it's far wider than Apple's marketing shows) would help. The problem is those facilities that have moved to FCPX are pretty much silent. Not only don't they have the incentive but they risk ridicule and probably loss of business as a result. I overheard one such FCPX facility advocate say not too long ago that he was tired of being called a moron. I know other facilities using it and they simply don't want to be too public about it because it will distract from their work, it can damage their facility's image in the market place.

Basically I think Apple's poor marketing is, at this point, is as great or greater hindrance than the lack of any specific feature (and their are some lacks).

Apple's big marketing mistakes are thinking FCPX will sell itself. It wont. It's different, It needs to be shown and explained in depth. And that those facilities using it will sell it. They wont. At this point their testimonial is far too risky for their businesses.



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Marcus Moore
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 4:20:50 pm

I've said for some time now that the software will technically ready long before the PR damage has been fixed.

Part of that will be put to bed [for good or ill] with the release of the new MacPro this year. But for the software itself, it's going to be a steady stream of incremental improvements just as it has been up to now. I don't think anything needs to change on the development side.

On the PR side, however, Apple needs to get in the game. First off, these "In Action" stories need to be videos. You're talking about visual storytelling- tell your story visually. Next- the return of Apple roadshows. After the next major update, Apple should be pounding the pavement touting not only NEW features, but also all the stuff that FCPX has done for some time that no one seems to know about.

As for the public roadmap, there was always going to be an end to this. As long as they were reintegrating Legacy functionality, they weren't giving anything away by listing that past features were returning. But key features going forward are more likely to be new [or heavily rethought], and so there's no chance Apple will be announcing them beforehand.



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Chris Kenny
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 4:34:42 pm

[Marcus Moore] "As for the public roadmap, there was always going to be an end to this. As long as they were reintegrating Legacy functionality, they weren't giving anything away by listing that past features were returning. But key features going forward are more likely to be new [or heavily rethought], and so there's no chance Apple will be announcing them beforehand."

Yeah, I really don't think Apple needs roadmaps at this point. Especially if, as seems to be the case, they plan to continue pushing out new features on a 3-4 month update cycle, rather one with one big update every 12-24 months. You don't have to reassure people that you're working on new features when you're proving it by supplying a steady stream of them.

In fact, unless Avid and Adobe switch to something more like Apple's release cycle, FCP X users will find out about new features long before MC/Premiere users — and they'll be able to download the update that includes them the same day.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Kevin Monahan
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 5:01:46 pm

[Chris Kenny] "In fact, unless Avid and Adobe switch to something more like Apple's release cycle, FCP X users will find out about new features long before MC/Premiere users — and they'll be able to download the update that includes them the same day."

Perhaps you didn't hear about this: Adobe plans to roll out new features for Creative Cloud members over the coming year. Stay tuned.

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Chris Kenny
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 5:05:59 pm

[Kevin Monahan] "Perhaps you didn't hear about this: Adobe plans to roll out new features for Creative Cloud members over the coming year. Stay tuned."

Yeah, I commented in my other post on the update cycle issue that it wouldn't be very surprising to see Adobe move to this model as well. It's a natural fit for subscription-based licensing models.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Craig Seeman
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 4:44:32 pm

[Marcus Moore] "First off, these "In Action" stories need to be videos. "

Yes, a major faux pas from a company selling an NLE to professionals. While there are the glossy quick demos, that's not the stuff a facility manager is going to use to make final decisions. I want to hear from the managers with interviews about workflows, facility walk through showing system integration.

[Marcus Moore] "Next- the return of Apple roadshows. After the next major update, Apple should be pounding the pavement touting not only NEW features, but also all the stuff that FCPX has done for some time that no one seems to know about."

Yes again. It has to be something other than the dog and pony show though. One doesn't need an in person version of the recorded demo videos. One needs to see and hear from people who have tackled real world workflow design with FCPX. One has to be able to ask and have answered the challenging question of design for specific higher end, potentially complex workflows. What it should not be is simple product demos. It has to be solution oriented. It has to address a real cost benefit analysis where both the build out and time savings should be shown palpably.

Since there are no VARs in the way that FCP Legacy had, Apple has to some extent be the VAR at least as far as the sales pitch is concerned.

One might guess and hope that the MacPro has been the missing link because, if Apple is going to push up the sales volume of a low volume selling computer and FCPX is designed to push MacPro sales, Apple must make a "professional" push to show how the combination is worth a six or seven figure secure investment for a facility.



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Frank Gothmann
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 5:21:08 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Apple must make a "professional" push to show how the combination is worth a six or seven figure secure investment for a facility."

They've shown already that it is not a secure investment. With both soft- and hardware. We needed two more machines and employed a new guy full-time last month. I am in Europe. If we had not gone PC last year I would have been forced to look on Ebay for a Mac Pro because I need PCIe connectivity. Very secure.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
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Craig Seeman
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 5:43:57 pm

... which is why Apple needs to stop up their marketing and direct support game. I certainly don't know if they will but if they want to sell the MacPro replacement and use FCPX as a selling tool, they need to do it. There's no VAR who will do that. It will not sell itself.

Past performance in not a prediction of future behavior. I can point to any number of companies in professional production that have done damaging things (and I have). Apple may be the most recent but they are not the first.



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James Mortner
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 17, 2013 at 9:54:10 am

[Frank Gothmann] "[Craig Seeman] "Apple must make a "professional" push to show how the combination is worth a six or seven figure secure investment for a facility."

They've shown already that it is not a secure investment. With both soft- and hardware. We needed two more machines and employed a new guy full-time last month. I am in Europe. If we had not gone PC last year I would have been forced to look on Ebay for a Mac Pro because I need PCIe connectivity. Very secure."


Exactly!

Also from the write-up

" But to use it effectively, you have to change your workflow. In a multi-editor, multi-production facility, this means changing a lot of practices and retraining staff. It also means augmenting the software with a host of other applications to fix the short-comings."

This is another enormous problem. Why would any large-ish facility go to all the trouble and expense of switching over when there is a very real chance they'll be left high and dry in another year or two i.e. Final Cut Server. People are still smarting over that.


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Craig Seeman
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 17, 2013 at 3:01:53 pm

As I've said before, you can say that about any number of companies that EOL'd high end facility level gear. Apple is not the first or only.

Avid changed things a number of times when their NLEs were over $50,000 each with huge upgrade prices.



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James Mortner
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 17, 2013 at 4:56:23 pm

Agreed, Apple certainly aren't the first to pull the rug out.

I was talking more about the confluence of poor marketing and uncertainty making it hard to justify a switch over?


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Craig Seeman
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 17, 2013 at 5:04:58 pm

[James Mortner] "Agreed, Apple certainly aren't the first to pull the rug out.

I was talking more about the confluence of poor marketing and uncertainty making it hard to justify a switch over?"


It's surprising to me how poor Apple's marketing is in this case (FCPX and MacPro's future). It's as if they still gear towards "instant gratification" crowd (smartphones, tablets and even laptops) rather than long term decision makers. Maybe they're waiting for all the pieces to be in place (MacPro for example along with next OS and FCPX updates)... and they intend to start as if they were a "new" company in that department. The problem is institutions (facilities) have long term memories which go along with their long term investments.

Basically FCPX and the next MacPro can be spectacular great but for many it's still would be an "insecure" purchase. Apple has to deal with the security issue.



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Charlie Austin
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 5:37:28 pm

[Marcus Moore] "On the PR side, however, Apple needs to get in the game. First off, these "In Action" stories need to be videos. You're talking about visual storytelling- tell your story visually. Next- the return of Apple roadshows. After the next major update, Apple should be pounding the pavement touting not only NEW features, but also all the stuff that FCPX has done for some time that no one seems to know about.

As for the public roadmap, there was always going to be an end to this. As long as they were reintegrating Legacy functionality, they weren't giving anything away by listing that past features were returning. But key features going forward are more likely to be new [or heavily rethought], and so there's no chance Apple will be announcing them beforehand."


Absolutely, on both points. I have a feeling that a more focused marketing push will happen. Hopefully sooner than later. I also think that sending feedback to Apple about the marketing of X is just as helpful as bug reports/feature requests. Seriously. And I also hope Apple is reading threads like this.

Hope springs eternal. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 5:49:29 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Another year – another NAB exhibition. A lot of fun stuff to see. Plenty of innovation and advances ..."

Oliver,

Another good piece of technology summary and perspective (though understandably US-centric). Your blog often contains good info and well-founded opinion.

Thanks!

... tangentially, I'm interested to see how Adobe Anywhere scales down (rather than up), appealing more to smaller groups, and wonder if they're be developments in that direction over the next few years. Is that the end run around puck-expectant Apple?

Franz.


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Marcus Moore
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 6:05:47 pm

Small-scale remote workflows is definitely where I'd like to see things go. I participate simultaneously in 3 different "virtual post houses", and based on how effectively we've been able to pilfer clientele from more traditional agencies due to their large and inefficient overhead, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Adobe Anywhere might be a few years away from being downscaled to business on my scale, and there's been some code-level hints that FCPX has some collaborative workflow tricks up it's sleeve- but those are all speculative for now.



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Chris Kenny
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 6:21:02 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "... tangentially, I'm interested to see how Adobe Anywhere scales down (rather than up), appealing more to smaller groups, and wonder if they're be developments in that direction over the next few years. Is that the end run around puck-expectant Apple?"

Adobe Anywhere does one better than Avid's solutions by allowing the centralized infrastructure used for collaborative workflows to be built with commodity hardware. But ideally you want little or no centralized infrastructure to be required at all. Adobe doesn't quite seem to be there yet. That's still anyone's game — though we might see Avid sit it out (to their long term detriment) since so much of their revenue appears to come from offering expensive proprietary solutions to this problem.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Oliver Peters
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 8:58:57 pm

I spent some time with Adobe product managers discussing the nuts and bolts of Anywhere. The general pieces are:

1) Centralized shared storage with the bandwidth to handle multiple streams of high-res video
2) Enterprise-grade Windows servers (with redundant back-up) to handle the streams
3) Additional dedicated server for the Adobe Mercury Steaming Engine
4) Adobe software
5) High-end NVIDIA GPUs for real-time effects processing at the central location

Typically, you'll need 1 server (not counting back-up) for every 10 concurrent users, so if you are trying to service 30 users at once, then this is a 3-4 server infrastructure. Not counting Adobe software and support, this sounds like you are in the $100K range with 16TB-32TB of storage. The servers are definitely NOT Mac-Minis. ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Kenny
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 9:42:00 pm

[Oliver Peters] "1) Centralized shared storage with the bandwidth to handle multiple streams of high-res video
2) Enterprise-grade Windows servers (with redundant back-up) to handle the streams
3) Additional dedicated server for the Adobe Mercury Steaming Engine
4) Adobe software
5) High-end NVIDIA GPUs for real-time effects processing at the central location

Typically, you'll need 1 server (not counting back-up) for every 10 concurrent users, so if you are trying to service 30 users at once, then this is a 3-4 server infrastructure. Not counting Adobe software and support, this sounds like you are in the $100K range with 16TB-32TB of storage. The servers are definitely NOT Mac-Minis. ;-)"


As nearly as I can tell, this is basically a 'thin client' model for video editing — all of the processing of video footage occurs on a centralized server (which obviously needs to be very powerful to do that for multiple clients concurrently), and the results are streamed to the client.

This is a very interesting model, and it may be very attractive for some users, but I think there are a whole bunch of use cases where it's missing the mark a bit. Here's the thing: today's client systems aren't all that thin. I am, in general, pretty damn happy with the performance I get editing, on, say, a 15" Retina MacBook Pro. If the client system has the computational resources to do the job, duplicating those resources on the server and doing the job there instead is wasteful.

The tricky question with processing on the client is, of course, where does the footage come from? You can't exactly stream uncompressed HD, or even common offline editing codecs like ProRes, over the Internet. I see, broadly, two approaches to this problem.

First, you could simply stream H.264 footage to the client (either converted live by the server, or transcoded in advance on the server — the latter obviously lets you get away with a less powerful server) and have that processed locally. This wouldn't be 100% pixel accurate with respect to results, but then neither is just monitoring compressed footage, which Adobe's approach involves. This would also still require things like final exports to be processed on the server, since the client won't have access to full quality media anymore that it does with Adobe's thin client scheme.

The other approach is to just simply ignore this problem. Don't even try to solve it. Add features that make it easy for users to share project data, and let users work out how to share media. This probably means you can't share media files over the Internet (generic file sharing schemes like AFP or NFS aren't going to work for streaming editorial media to NLEs over the Internet). But it would still likely work fine for users with shared LAN/SAN storage. You could also simply give each remote user collaborating on the project an identical drive with all of the editorial media, totally eliminating the need to send media over the network at all.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Oliver Peters
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 9:54:07 pm

[Chris Kenny] "As nearly as I can tell, this is basically a 'thin client' model for video editing — all of the processing of video footage occurs on a centralized server (which obviously needs to be very powerful to do that for multiple clients concurrently), and the results are streamed to the client."

Yes. The example they use and have demonstrated is being connecting via a MacBook Air. The Premiere Pro software on the MBA is really only an interface for the work being done on the server.

[Chris Kenny] "You can't exactly stream uncompressed HD, or even common offline editing codecs like ProRes, over the Internet. I see, broadly, two approaches to this problem."

In Anywhere, that's where the Mercury Streaming Engine comes in. All compositing of multiple streams is done at the server. The MSE is sending a single stream to the client system and that stream is throttled by available bandwidth (plus some local caching like with AE), just like the settings on the Premiere Pro timeline now. When you pause, a full-res image is sent to the system, since only 1 frame needs to be sent. This means that while you are tweaking settings on a filter, in theory, you are watching it at full res. When you hit play, the composite is done in real time at the server and the editor gets a reduced-resolution image via MSE. A LAN would give you better performance than a mediocre wireless connection at Starbucks.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 15, 2013 at 5:48:38 am

[Oliver Peters] "All compositing of multiple streams is done at the server. The MSE is sending a single stream to the client system and that stream is throttled by available bandwidth (plus some local caching like with AE), just like the settings on the Premiere Pro timeline now. "

That's fascinating.


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Chris Kenny
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 15, 2013 at 2:41:28 pm

[Oliver Peters] "In Anywhere, that's where the Mercury Streaming Engine comes in. All compositing of multiple streams is done at the server. "

Right, I get that this is how Adobe's model works. I'm just speculating on models that don't require that much specialized central infrastructure, since that requirement seems problematic for many projects where collaboration would otherwise be useful.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Chris Harlan
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 9:07:54 pm

[Craig Seeman] "very good observation on NLE at NAB. "

Quite enjoyed it myself.

Oliver--one question: I got a quote at the EditShare booth that puts the release of Lightworks Mac in the next few weeks or month. Why do you think "end of the year?"


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Oliver Peters
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 9:23:16 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Oliver--one question: I got a quote at the EditShare booth that puts the release of Lightworks Mac in the next few weeks or month. Why do you think "end of the year?""

Me, too, but I'm skeptical. I think it's a bit of a grey area with them when something is out of beta and actually a released product.

It's all vaporware until something ships ;-) From what I could tell, AJA was the only vendor (of those we routinely discuss here) that decided to only show products actually shipping now.

As far as Lightworks Mac, they are in an alpha version now. The next stage is with a closed group of beta testers. Then an official public beta.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Heagy
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 14, 2013 at 11:24:15 pm

One thing not mentioned is the stress on storage streaming any size format derived in realtime from the high rez will have.

In typical offline online workflows there are more offline stations than online. That's the case with us certainly. Online storage is sized based on the final conform needs. Now it has to accommodate the many offline streams. Since these are rendered in real time by Mercury, that means full high rez realtime bandwidth is required for even the smallest format delivered.

I wouldn't consider Anywhere using the high rez but instead using an encoded offline format like ProRes proxy. I'd then have Anywhere deliver tiny versions to remote stations rendered in realtime from the PR proxy.

John


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Oliver Peters
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 15, 2013 at 1:04:06 am

[John Heagy] "I wouldn't consider Anywhere using the high rez but instead using an encoded offline format like ProRes proxy. I'd then have Anywhere deliver tiny versions to remote stations rendered in realtime from the PR proxy."

MSE works with native media at the server, as I understand it. That can be ProRes or AVC-Intra, but also H264 if that's what was ingested. But this only lives at the server. The remote station is receiving streamed media for "live" playback during editing, not local storage. Resolution is throttled per bandwidth without the need to generate actual proxy media. MSE is effectively creating edit "proxies" on-the-fly.

Since the final "master" exists by publishing at the server, there's no need to actually transmit full bandwidth ProRes to the remote station. The important media factor is the bandwidth of the SAN at the server location. That's the same as if you had the remote clients living on shared storage at the facility without Anywhere. Anywhere and the streaming engine allows you to move the process outside of the facility if you like.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Heagy
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 15, 2013 at 5:00:09 am

[Oliver Peters] "The important media factor is the bandwidth of the SAN at the server location. That's the same as if you had the remote clients living on shared storage at the facility without Anywhere. "

That's what I was talking about. Now tiny proxy streams needs full bandwidth from the SAN for every remote request. I'd prefer to keep offline and online storage independent. I'd encode to a high quality proxy and then let Anywhere stream tiny versions of that.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 15, 2013 at 8:16:02 pm

I think it really is a bit of a larger picture thing? the collaborative abilities afforded to a large to mid size with anywhere are quite savage - like I say - there are some heavy duty places in London with multiple site facilities that have extensively road tested it - they are very, very extremely keen.

Also - it was said that adobe are looking at a long GOP mercury stream implementation - that would take shared footage access all the way to a good DSL.
I get that proxies can be great - but this represents the first time to my knowledge that someone has gotten up to their knees in fundamentally removing the necessity for proxies.

It might be better to look at this as adobe attacking high value big iron solutions by effectively commoditising the parts? - and also solving shared group collaboration at the same time. I don't work in that scenario, but I have talked to people road testing anywhere - who are in that scenario -
and they sound pretty seriously on board.

between this, CS7 and CC -it's hard not to see it as adobe attacking the market at almost every level.
They might as well be daubed in scottish blue wode.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Lance Bachelder
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 15, 2013 at 1:41:49 am

I totally agree that Apple is way too secretive in just about everything they do - but can't argue with success...

As far as FCPX - after talking with the Apple guys at NAB, I get the feeling that they know it's not done yet and are playing it extra close to the vest until the last of the missing features are back in. At least they were open enough to admit they know the issues and are working on them - won't know until the next rev how close they're getting...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Benjamin Mullins
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 15, 2013 at 2:53:07 pm

I totally agree that Apple is way too secretive in just about everything they do - but can't argue with success...

I think this creates an atmosphere where no-one at Apple will want to (or be brave enough to) change their strategy in relation to marketing or customer relations, despite what many customers would prefer (less secrecy).

...I get the feeling that they know it's not done yet and are playing it extra close to the vest until the last of the missing features are back in.

Personally I wish they wouldn't play it so close, it has a direct effect on the financial decisions I have to make and puts me in a position where planning the future of my career becomes more guess work than strategy, both in terms of purchasing new hardware and learning new software. This is how I pay the bills. If I am your customer I would like at least some support. Just saying...



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Marcus Moore
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 15, 2013 at 8:07:04 pm

That's good to hear. Did the MacPro come up in your conversation at all? I know they've been reinforcing it's release with others who they met with.

From what others have reported, there certainly doesn't seem to be any confusion about where it is or is not a "MacPro". Maybe these guys don't know so they're just calling it that.



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Oliver Peters
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 15, 2013 at 8:22:11 pm

[Marcus Moore] "Did the MacPro come up in your conversation at all? I know they've been reinforcing it's release with others who they met with."

Apple avoided any discussion of hardware, except to reiterate the Cook quote. Demos used iMacs.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Lance Bachelder
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 16, 2013 at 7:40:11 am

Yeah and I didn't ask since I was pestering them about FCPX and started to wear out my welcome... plus I'm very happy with my new iMac and not missing my MacPro at all not to mention the heat that used to fill my edit suite. I will pay for my iMac in 12 months with AC savings.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Chris Harlan
Re: NLEs and NAB - Oliver Peters
on Apr 16, 2013 at 9:46:26 am

[Lance Bachelder] " I will pay for my iMac in 12 months with AC savings."

That's about right.


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