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FCPX and very occasional lag.

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Aindreas Gallagher
FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Mar 31, 2013 at 10:53:32 pm

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/50526

apparently the ram has been maxed here, the video card swapped out, the machine is pretty serious, the user is hammering away to solve it with real world impetus, and the performance can be pretty seriously bad?

is this an outlier? I swear to god I only ask because Oliver Peters has also spoken to slow downs that may require periodic full re-starts.

Outside of those of us all generally piling on the software, some of the stuff cited here seems pretty bad - are there responsiveness issues in FCPX?
does it seem to degrade over a session as has been suggested?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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John Davidson
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 12:13:04 am

Here's how I'd respond to him if it were in my shop. This is the equivalent of complaining that your 64 Oldsmobile doesn't get the same gas mileage as a brand new Prius.

1. Why the heck are you doing anything on a 5 yr old mac pro? Please use it as a server or sell it before my head explodes.
2. What drives are you using? Certainly not a thunderbolt RAID, and I can only imagine that if you're working on a 5 yr old mac pro you're NOT working on a super fast RAID.
3. mLooks? Easy Looks? Have I not told you about using 3rd party plugins on FCPX? Please learn how to color correct in X or with motion, or do it AT THE END OF YOUR PROJECT LIKE THE REST OF EARTH DOES.
4. STOP TURNING OFF BACKGROUND RENDER OR I'M FIRING YOU.
5. Are you working at a native codec? Are you working at Proxy? Prores? Optimized? Is your project or comp the same frame rate as everything else?

We don't work with third party plugins that aren't sold off the Mac App store, not even FX Factory ones. You can build so many of your own in motion without all the hassle of maintaining them, checking if they're updated, reinstalling, etc.


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Gary Huff
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 12:38:25 am

[John Davidson] "We don't work with third party plugins that aren't sold off the Mac App store, not even FX Factory ones. You can build so many of your own in motion without all the hassle of maintaining them, checking if they're updated, reinstalling, etc."

I'm at a loss for words. Seriously? Come on, now.


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John Davidson
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 12:50:46 am

If you had watched my workflow videos this would not be news to you. The last plugins I bought were the Tiffen filters, which just operated slowly and we have never used them again since purchase. As we add systems life is just dramatically simpler if we don't have to deal with any third party plugins. I want to be able to open up my project on an air if I want without some ridiculous license. This is how we work and it works well for us.

You'd be surprised at how much you can do in motion if you try. Obviously, if we had to do some elaborate 3D then Dashwood's plugins would be crucial. We haven't done any 3D so there's that.

I have been saying for years I want a plugin store from Adobe and I think the Mac App store should be the place to get them for FCPX. I think Apple should encourage this. Software update should be the source for updates, not constantly checking 30 different websites or FX Factory.


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Gary Huff
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 2:18:11 am

[John Davidson] "If you had watched my workflow videos this would not be news to you. The last plugins I bought were the Tiffen filters, which just operated slowly and we have never used them again since purchase. As we add systems life is just dramatically simpler if we don't have to deal with any third party plugins. I want to be able to open up my project on an air if I want without some ridiculous license. This is how we work and it works well for us."

That's fine, but I find great benefit from the plugins I use and find the idea to not use 3rd party plugins to be patently ridiculous.

If that was the case with any other NLE, there would be howls of derision.


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 2:25:16 am

[Gary Huff] "That's fine, but I find great benefit from the plugins I use and find the idea to not use 3rd party plugins to be patently ridiculous.
"


It is ridiculous, and I use them all the time with no issues.I don't think we're talking about a problem with X, but a problem with some peoples installations. Not to diminish the importance of Julians, and probably others, issues, but I haven't experienced these problems. There are plenty of other people who's installations run just fine as well. But I guess that's off topic, as this is yet another thread about how FCP X is horribly, catastrophically flawed. Carry on...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 2:22:16 pm

Charlie,
You didn't notice the OPs name?
What did you expect?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Julian Bowman
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 12:50:19 am

Makes me glad I'm my own boss really. Mind you, that was part of the reasoning behind the plan, avoiding self important ranty men dogmatically telling me I don't know how to walk properly.

It's a 2 year old Mac.

I will continue to use plugins as I did with FCP7 (some of the same ones in fact) and I do colour correct then add filters for effect. My clients like my work, they give me money, your shop can work your way, I will work mine.

Adding CC and filters at the end to circumnavigate the flaws of my editing software isn't an issue with my workflow, but with the software. FFS, I get that FCPX has some things going for it but that degree of apologising for its shortcomings is just stupid. FCPX needs to be coded properly and work properly.

I am aware that my mac may be old, something I have written about up in another thread. I am also aware FCPX is the only NLE that is laggy on my mac and it is seriously so. My guess is partly that is because it needs modern computing power and partly because the code isn't as good as it should be.

In addition, if I need a new Mac to run FCPX (remember, mine is 2 years old) then FCPX isn't the cheap bit of software people like to say it is. I am self employed. I make a decent living. I also buy all my own gear, cameras and computers, with my own money, so chucking another £3k + at FCPX is a big deal to me. Perhaps in your world £3k is what you blow on your Christmas do. If so, good for you, but to me £3k still hol value, cheers.

But mostly, on my set up, which isn't antiquated at all, the lag on actioning things on FCPX is horrendous at the current stage of my project (ie the end when everything is in place and client tweaks are necessary, so no avoiding filters at that point). And even if I was using a thunderbolt raid (which I can't because apple haven't built a MacPro with thunderbolt) on this current mac I'm not convinced it would stop the lag because it isn't only about the drive, it is about the code.

I'm also not convinced the notion of not using 3rd party plugins on FCPX when Apple themselves want 3rd party plugins to compensate for the software's shortcomings is one to be too proudly extolled. Or are apple just being numpties for telling us it is fine, 3rd party solutions will enable us to fill in the gaps.



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John Davidson
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 12:54:38 am

Sorry Julian, I thought in an earlier post you said it was a 2.26 quad core mac pro from 2009?



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Bret Williams
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 2:04:27 am

Still, the MacPro he bought was at least a year old when he bought it since it hasn't been updated in 3 years.


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Julian Bowman
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 7:32:27 am

Fair enough. Does that mean you'd shout at me less if I was in your shop ?



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Keith Koby
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 10:04:08 am

If you were using that computer "in my shop" for FCPX, then that would be my problem because I'm responsible for outfitting "the shop" with computers. You'd certainly be working at a station with a better computer for the job.

I'd also be stripping away, systematically, all of the other pieces of the puzzle until we found what was causing the slow down. Maybe take this to the techniques forum for a rational discussion.


Back to the hardware-
Throw out all the other nonsense here and it's true: FCPX is more responsive on a new iMac than on an older mac pro. We have used it with 12 core machines and depending on what you are doing it is ok. The iMac is much better though. I don't think it is much of a matter for "debate" though. It's just how it is.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 12:55:18 am

john man - you kind of coined GFX word tag smart collections, and work flow compound clips functioning as sequences in the browser -

I tread lightly -

"Certainly not a thunderbolt RAID, "
that's not going to matter realistically. We've all been happy as clams to this point.

"Have I not told you about using 3rd party plugins on FCPX? Please learn how to color correct in X or with motion,"

So I'm going to take fairly deadly issue with this.

Either FCPX has a reliable extensible plugin architecture or it doesn't. As of two days ago Magic Bullet, from Stu Maschwitz, apparently functions again.
After a three month silent interregnum.

Basically: who is not pretty happily accustomed to invoking third party pug-ins?
plus what's worse, the dude here says its not even external plug-ins killing him.

still - I do basically take the point - throwing any old plug-in to the mix is liable to mess things up.

BUT - the system should be in a position to reliably accept plug-ins.
Up until three days ago that was not true of a serious amount of third party plugin software.

That aside - he said pouring tea and offering biscuits -
do you get system slow down or interface breaks? Do Apple have anything to address here?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 1:34:27 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "do you get system slow down or interface breaks? Do Apple have anything to address here?"

Well... Other than the first press of the spacebar or L key after opening the app, I don't get any appreciable slowdown in X at all. And I often use all sorts of crazy 3'rd party and native plugins. To be fair, I don't do a lot of CC. On a 2009 Mac Pro originally, and for the last couple weeks on a new 27" iMac. There are some complicated piles of FX and/or compositing which either require setting the playback quality to better performance, or rendering the problematic section. This is stuff which would never play at all without rendering in 7, and just plays choppily -sometimes- in X. My experience is that X, at it's slowest, performs at least as well as 7, and usually performs much better. Source is generally HD of some flavor served over Gb ethernet from a NAS RAID. The only interface slowdown I notice is the first load of the project library if there are more than 10 or 15 sequences in it. After the first load it's generally snappy, more so on the new iMac.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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John Davidson
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 1:51:05 am

Charlie it sounds like your setup is pretty similar to ours. Are you doing sparse disks? I'm sure you probably told me all about it the other week and I completely forgot. Last few months have been a blur!

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 2:20:04 am

[John Davidson] "Charlie it sounds like your setup is pretty similar to ours. Are you doing sparse disks? I'm sure you probably told me all about it the other week and I completely forgot. Last few months have been a blur!"

Nope, Events and Projects are local, but all media is central and referenced, not copied to local event folders. We haven't totally switched to X, so Sparse Discs might be an option, but now that X .08 can duplicate projects and events using the symlinks, ie. without trying to copy all the actual source clips into the duplicate -which broke the links to the central media-, we can probably just use our old fashioned sneakernet method. To share a sequence, just duplicate project +used clips without renders, give new project and new "clips for project" event to other editor, etc. etc. Almost exactly like handing off a sequence in 7.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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John Davidson
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 1:49:41 am

Thanks dude! I will absolutely take credit for the gfx smart collection trick. Compound Clips was suggested to me by one of the network post production heads we work with. One day I'll be able to credit him publicly when they officially switch, but until then I'll take that, too!

My problems with 3rd party plugins aren't completely based on sluggishness. A lot of it is with 1 or 2 seat licensing issues that are doing all kinds of network snooping on my systems that could be doing who-knows-what by accident. We avoid the matter entirely by not using them at all. I can say that anything that's doing a massive amount of color correct, vignetting, clamping, etc, is going to need a render to play back properly. I think everybody knows that on pretty much any system. Julian said he was working with MLooks and Easy looks later after the post you linked to, so that's why I pointed them out.

There was one particular project a few weeks back that was doing all kinds of crazy stuff. I could literally watch the RAM usage creep up until it maxed it out. This occurred on pretty much every system we opened it up on. It wasn't a 'work' project, but a personal one with all kinds of crazy stuff going on. We experiment with personal stuff to beta test possible workflow updates. We were using internal media vs referenced, had all kinds of plugins applied (3rd party ones too I think) and while I can't remember what it was, I think we ended up making a new event and copying what we needed from the bad Event. In terms of sluggishness, Mac Pros don't work as well as iMacs. We have the 2010 Mac Pro with 64 gigs of RAM in one room and while it should be the best, it's absolutely not. It's bluetooth signal is terrible despite numerous backplate replacements, it's had networking dropoffs that other systems don't have, and it just doesn't feel as robust as the imac. My overlying plan is to swap out every system with iMacs eventually and put the towers in the server room.

(cue the coldplay background music)
I love the simplicity that this software on an iMac suite has. It's just the imac, mic, speakers, and a monitor. We keep our workflow light and robust to try to match. Some people think our sparse disk image is a hack, but when you think about it, sparse disk images will instantly show you on the finder sidebar exactly which project you're working on is going to be in X before you open it. That's a finder level project viewing solution built into the operating system. That's pretty awesome.

Sorry, I don't know where all that came from!

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Rafael Amador
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 3:23:45 am

Is this the NLE that would free the editor from technicalities and let him concentrate in creativity?
Too many elements to consider and too many decisions to take before starting to drop things on the time-line.

[Charlie Austin] " as this is yet another thread about how FCP X is horribly, catastrophically flawed. Carry on..."
You are right.
People like Julian should shut up and keep their complains for them self.
Only praises should be posted.
rafael


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 3:49:37 am

[Rafael Amador] "[Charlie Austin] " as this is yet another thread about how FCP X is horribly, catastrophically flawed. Carry on..."
You are right.
People like Julian should shut up and keep their complains for them self.
Only praises should be posted.
rafael"


Uh... I never said that. In fact I believe I said the opposite. Let's see ..." Not to diminish the importance of Julians, and probably others, issues, " Yep. Anyway, Julian did not start this thread, Aindreas did, with a specific, though IMO loaded question about FCP X responsiveness. Which, after a couple actual responses, seemed to be turning into another X bashing fest, to which I reacted. Sorry if it bothered you somehow. I've never believed that only praises should be posted, hearing of problems folks are having is helpful, not only for the poster in hopefully finding solutions, but also for others to hear of potential pitfalls. Hearing random uninformed biased opinions about how awful FCP X is are not. At least to me. I'm really not sure what purpose they serve. Now, if you'll pardon me, I'm of to the MC forum to post about how awful it is... :-/

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 6:02:55 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "BUT - the system should be in a position to reliably accept plug-ins.
Up until three days ago that was not true of a serious amount of third party plugin software."


You say that like it *never* reliably accepted plugins which, as you know, is patently false. Something broke 3 months ago. It seems pretty obvious that the X folks had to wait for an OS update to fix it. OS X 10.8.3 was released on 3/14. 2 weeks later, FCP X 10.0.8 was released, fixing the issue. Seems pretty responsive to me. Now maybe you'll argue that Apple should tell everyone the technical details and give progress reports for every bug that comes up, but I'm not sure there's a commercial SW vendor on earth that gives out that info unless you're a developer.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Shane Ross
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 5:33:17 pm

[John Davidson] "2. What drives are you using? Certainly not a thunderbolt RAID, and I can only imagine that if you're working on a 5 yr old mac pro you're NOT working on a super fast RAID."

Just had to debate THIS point. I have a 2008 MacPro, 16GB RAM, GTX285 graphics card...but more to the point...a CalDigit HDOne via miniSAS that is Raid 5 and gets 380MB/s read/write. On par, if not faster, than a Thunderbolt RAID.

It is true though, that I wouldn't attempt to use FCX on that machine, nor expect it to work great! Because Apple considers anything 3 years old or older to be ancient.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 5:44:14 pm

[Shane Ross] "It is true though, that I wouldn't attempt to use FCX on that machine, nor expect it to work great! Because Apple considers anything 3 years old or older to be ancient."

That's the machine I use FCPX on and I'm cutting 4K on it at the moment, the lag issue isn't across everyone's MacPro systems. However there doesn't seem to be any common denominator amongst those who have the issue

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Carsten Orlt
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 5:12:10 am

Aindreas,

Not sure what you are actually trying to achieve with these posts? I read the original post and it lacks very little detail about the specify hardware used or which codecs are in play? To take this as a negative example to point out how this might be a fundamentally serious problem is far fetched to say the least.

If your interest would actually be to understand more about the software and possible best setups because you don't have the means or time to test it yourself than I would understand your many post of same nature lately. But your language reveals quite openly that you are basically using a lot of words to say: see I told you it is crap.. Very thin ground if you are using others to prove your point without actually testing it yourself.

I for instance get really nice performance out of my early 2008 with 16 GB RAM and I only updated my GPU to a ATI 5770. I have Raid 0 Esata drives connected to a Sonnet EP4 card. I use either Sony XDcam or Canon XF codec and edit in 1080p25 all the time. I actually have background render on because the render is now so fast after FCPx started to use all cores that making myself a cupa is time enough to get my fx rendered since the last time I made a cup (nothing I ever tried using FCP7). Yes newer machines might be faster and sure a Pegasus thunderbolt would be nice, but to edit you don't need either!

And if it might lack slightly in speed I think this is really a very minor point because if we are honest speed these days is way beyond what we actually need unless you are more a FX artist than an editor. For me the argument that you might be editing quicker with FCPx is completely irrelevant because I don't edit to win a race. I want to be sure that I get the best possible edit from my material. The real advantage that FCPx gives me is that I actually have to think less about the mechanics than about the content I'm creating. This is the real revolution. Yes it takes a moment to get past the mechanics when you come from FCP7, Premiere or Avid, but the goal justifies the effort. Just yesterday I helped a friend with some 'mechanics' in FCP7 and I can't tell you how much I'm happy that I do not have to deal with tracks anymore. The freedom from dealing with the mechanics when working with tracks compared to the pain of developing a new way of solving editing questions is totally neglect-able.

And on the same machine I had way less realtime performance with FCP 7 than I have now with x. The only thing that takes longer is working with thumbnails. But I didn't actually work with them in FCP7 because they were useless than. Now they are super helpful and I learn everyday strategies how to best use the software to not get bogged down by FCPx having to load thousands of thumbnails. I don't think neither Premiere nor Avid actually make the same extensive use of them and therefor maybe don't have the problem of needing time to pre-load them. But boy do I love looking at my footage visually rather than by description, because that was the only way we had before.

But of course if nobody pays you for using it you don't need to learn it. And of course you can try to keep finding flaws by reading third persons accounts. But I like to test myself before I would go on the Premiere bashing agenda and say how awfully bad this software is written by just looking at the post about project management. Because it might just be that somebody has a special config that causes trouble and a lot of people don't have the same problem.

Happy editing


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 5:50:04 am

[Carsten Orlt] "The real advantage that FCPx gives me is that I actually have to think less about the mechanics than about the content I'm creating. This is the real revolution. "

That's it in a nutshell for me as well. There certainly are things that I think can be improved or added. But really, if there is something lacking in X that is specific to your workflow, or you just plain don't like it or don't think it's worth the effort to learn it, use something else. It's not like you don't have a choice.

I get that a lot of people are mad at Apple for EOL'ing their favorite NLE. I know the feeling. When I was mixing I used, and loved, Avid AudioVision. It was amazing, specifically for editing and mixing for Film and TV. Then, they bought Digidesign's ProTools (or SlowTools as we all derisively called it), and killed AV. PT wasn't at all the same, like, not even close, but the world kept turning, and everyone moved on. I can only imagine the vitriolic, inane internet ranting that would have occurred had forums like this existed back then.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Julian Bowman
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 7:59:02 am

And what frustrates me the most is responses suggesting people with similar machines are not getting the ridiculous lag I am getting. And when I say lag I don't mean choppy real time playback, on the whole that is good, I mean I click something it takes 2 seconds to action it.

Aindreas took a quote from another thread I posted in but there is a thread with my macs specs, and my workflow, which is basically pro res converts on an external 2tb hard drive.

I can't help that my mac is 'outdated' as Apple haven't updated their MacPro (properly) in years. I also cannot run OSX or FCPX on a PC without using a hackintosh which I am uninterested in, thus I am stuck dancing to their corporate drum or spending £3k + on a macine which will be outdated a t 'some awesome point' in 2013.

As I have said in other threads, there is a lot to like about FCPX, as well as some niavity/stupidity/error in design decisions they have made. The magnetic timeline is just a different way of doing things that is neither earth shatteringly revolutionary or dead on arrival, but Apple have coded it with serious flaws that mean its performance on my mac is horrendous at the current stage of a large project, and no other editing software I have tried or have used extensively has offered up this lagging. This is a flaw, and in an environment where people give me money to make the films, FCPX doing this on my current set up, makes it far less viable a NLE than it could be. And this is a flaw.

I believe there would be a lot more civility between the two extremes of opinion on this forum if those who 'love' FCPx weren't so doggedly blinded by their love that any comment, question or complaint about FCPX that wasn't gushing praise didn't act as a catalyst for battening down the hatches and, more recently, a plethora of smug sarcasm and irony about 'how FCPX isn't good enough for Pro use'.

Honestly, I am using it, it does a job, bits of it it does really well, bits of it are terrible, and I don't care what anyone thinks of what software I use because in my world it is irrelevant. But I have to say there are a fair amount of pro FCPX commentators on this forum who make me generally shut up about using FCPX because I don't want to be associated with them, rather than not wanting to be associated with the software. Andreas may be an agitator, a devil's advocate, but he doesn't argue against FCPX in absolute terms of derision, he states he sees value in it and bits are great, but what about this......... as well he should. FCPX 10.0.0 was horrible on the whole, 10.0.7 is far far better and it is now out of the realms of being horrible. It is still incredibly flawed though. Ad it is still littered with poor design decisions. Start acknowledging that whilst stating you also love it's good points, start debating its pros and cons (which does occasionally happen in a manner that is a joy to areas until one of the jack boot brigade decide to waft in with their size 12s on) and this forum will be more useful than annoying, and people will be less antagonised by your dogmatic fundamentalism, which is always a flawed position to take anyway.

Now, if someone can tell me who to google (technician wise) to get them to look at my mac and figure out why mine is so shite compared to others that would be totally appreciated. I live in Hertfordshire these day, just outside of London.



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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 8:15:27 am

[Julian Bowman] "this forum will be more useful than annoying, and people will be less antagonised by your dogmatic fundamentalism, which is always a flawed position to take anyway."

Well, I hope I don't come off as a dogmatic fundamentalist. I don't think I've ever claimed that X is perfect, it's clearly not. And I've said before that I'm not a big fan of people who crow that X is the most wonderful thing ever. I do happen to like it though, and it works really well for what I do. Also, my reply above was an honest one, I was, until recently, using X on a machine maybe almost exactly like yours, and I didn't experience the lag you've spoken about. My longest projects are about 10 minutes though, mostly much less, so there may be performance issues I don't see.

I'm with you on the X timeline. The first version sucked, and it's only really been useable since .4. I guess I just don't see the inherent design flaws everyone else does. I like where they'r going with it. I do see plenty of things that need improvement and/or refinement, which I think I've been upfront about.

Anyway, If I ever come off as some sort of blinded fanboy, please let me know. I think blind love, and blind hate are both pretty worthless when it comes to computer programs... :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Julian Bowman
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 8:24:40 am

Sorry, I just hit reply, I wasn't aiming my post at you per se, but at those whom it describes. As I tried to express there is some good debate on here and I have learnt from it... In fact without this forum and following the sensible threads I wouldn't currently be using FCP10.0.7. But there are also some right frustrating fan boys on here too.

And yes, I am jealous of those with similar set ups having no lag issues. I want to see them running to see how much better they are than mine and I'd love for a tech person to fix my set up but I don't know who to look for to try and hire someone to do it. So my experience is currently frustrating beyond belief.

In fact if I had that record your monitor software I would record me editing so others could see and comment on whether it is normal or insanely laggy.



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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 8:41:14 am

[Julian Bowman] "Sorry, I just hit reply, I wasn't aiming my post at you per se, but at those whom it describes. As I tried to express there is some good debate on here and I have learnt from it... In fact without this forum and following the sensible threads I wouldn't currently be using FCP10.0.7. But there are also some right frustrating fan boys on here too.

No problem, I actually share your disdain for "everything is perfect, you're doing it wrong!" posts myself. They're as unhelpful as the "it's iMovie Pro and Apple hates pros!" posts... Which have been getting under my skin a lot recently for some reason... (and that wasn't directed at you by the way, just to pre-clear up any potential misunderstanding) :-)

[Julian Bowman] And yes, I am jealous of those with similar set ups having no lag issues. I want to see them running to see how much better they are than mine and I'd love for a tech person to fix my set up but I don't know who to look for to try and hire someone to do it. So my experience is currently frustrating beyond belief."

Well, I understand the frustration. And as a self certified geek, I'd be happy to help, but as I'm 6000 miles away here in LA I guess that won't work. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 8:56:59 pm

[Charlie Austin] "No problem, I actually share your disdain for "everything is perfect, you're doing it wrong!" posts myself. They're as unhelpful as the "it's iMovie Pro and Apple hates pros!" posts... Which have been getting under my skin a lot recently for some reason... (and that wasn't directed at you by the way, just to pre-clear up any potential misunderstanding) :-)
"


Agreed. And you've been a terrific asset to the discussion here.


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Mark Dobson
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 8:59:27 am

Hi Julian,

I've been through the situation you describe so well, except my Mac Pro was a 2008 model but with a new 5770 graphics card and 22GBs Ram, and I've been waiting for the Mac-Pro upgrade since forever.

I almost lost clients because of the appalling performance of FCPX initially, but I'd committed myself to the change and wasn't about to switch over to PP or any system. After an initial FTF period I really saw the potential of FCPX and that's why I've stuck with it despite it's flaws. Through this forum I've been able to share other editors experiences with both hardware and software issues and it's because of the really positive feedback that I went against my instincts and invested in the new beefed up 27" iMac.

I think it was a good decision, I'm still encountering a lot of issues but the lagging behaviour has disappeared. I use Preference Manager frequently, I repair disk permissions frequently and see both of these activities as part of the day job.

I do all my colour correction using FCPX but do use external plugins ( Sorry John but they are really useful ). The main external plugins I use are CoreMelt, Slice X and Lock and Load. I also use Several FxFactory based plugins and find mFlare really useful.

But as you pointed out in an earlier post it was quite an investment - with all the Thunderbolt connectors etc etc - and a new 8GB Gtech TB drive its added up to about £3.5K - But its a set up that I feel really confident with and one that I could easily swap out should a new MacPro actually be released this year.

You mention trying to find a tech to help sort your system out, and I'm sure there will be one in the Herfordshire area, we use a company called Purple Mac down here in Sussex and they've been really helpful but not at the detailed level of system optimisation for FCPX.

Might I suggest that you create a separate system drive to run FCPX from, the drive is not that expensive and you can just do a clean install of the bare essentials that you need. That will give you an accurate picture of how well you system is really doing. I did all these types of things and never found my performance improved dramatically but you have a much newer MacPro.

But whatever you do you will not get the benefit of the extremely high speed Thunderbolt connections and new processors that the iMac offers.


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David Eaks
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 1:09:08 pm

Julian, I don't want to frustrate you further with comments about older hardware working fine but it really is doable, I swear. I'm running both a 2008 Mac Pro 3,1 2.8 eight-core, 16GB RAM with Radeon 5770 and a 17" 2010 i7 MBP 6,1 8GB RAM. Each with SSD System Drives and editing off internal RAID-0 or individual external FW800/esata drives respectively. Mostly Prores lt from my KiPro and maybe some avchd from Sony NX5s mixed in (not optimized). Haven't updated to 10.8.3 or 10.0.8 yet.

Haven't been experiencing these lags, one of my current projects (on the laptop system now but will be moved to the desktop for finishing, via sneaker net), is three days shooting with 7-8 hours of lectures each. Each clip is about 45 minutes to 1.5 hours. Each day has a one hour, 2-angle avchd multicam clip. For fun I threw all the clips from each day on their own 8-hour timelines and started overlooking everything and then started making some global changes (the whole project is one main speaker). Performance was fine and I just kept working with those three timelines, duplicating and breaking them down into about 2 hour lengths for DVDs. Clicking around and scrubbing, keyboard trimming, range-selected audio adjustments, project switching/duplicating etc. all snappy as I could expect it to be (except the AVCHD Multicam clips, they bog down the laptop system a bit). Maybe the "loading project" window pops up for a couple seconds if I go into the Project Library. Barely any delay when hitting space and it playing, even when rapidly skimming to a different part of the timeline and hitting play/pause repeatedly.

I had a test project that was a huge mess of clips with heavy effects, keyframed zooms and moves, a 9-angle multicam clip with a couple offline angles, mixed formats, just tons of crazy stuff going on and it wasn't particularly bad except skimming over the stuff that had so much going on that playback wasn't even possible at all. In fact, part of a screen recording I recently posted regarding an audio bug was working in that project (during which, editing performance was notably terrible).

None of this is to say that I haven't experienced my fair share of green frames, crazy purple flashes, beach balls and unexpected quits. But the regular trash renders/prefs/permissions, copy/paste to new project etc. stuff has got me back on track. I still get a glitch where the skimmer doesn't work from time to time, simply going in and out of the project library fixes it every time. Through all the madness of switching to FCPX, I have been more confident that I won't lose any work after a crash and that my project will be just as I left it when I come back than I have ever been (my humble beginnings in Premiere 5-6.5 (NOT CS) were filled with lost work and messed up projects, which scarred me for life).

One thing, is that I've been an obsessive clean-installer, mostly ever since I truly started the switch from FCP 7 to X at 10.0.3. I wait to update until matching OS X, FCP X and Matrox MXO2 versions are available and "COW-approved", then I do a complete clean install to a new system drive (cycled from the shelf), keeping the old one on the shelf for a backup. Not that I'm absolutely sure that this is why I don't have this problem, just throwing it out there. Maybe it's because the vast majority of my projects are long clips with a relatively small amount of cuts and effects. Whatever the case, I'm quite happy with FCPX overall.


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Julian Bowman
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 1:29:13 pm

Cheers David, it is some solace knowing it is probably more an issue with my mac, especially as at some point (when Apple release a new MacPro) I will get myself a new machine and dedicate it solely to editing.

You machine sounds like mine on the whole though I am not using any raid setup with my internal drives. Interestingly I have never experienced these coloured frames issues others have, although I get unexpected closes, but then I get those with most software at some point or another, just something I expect to happen.

Someone has mailed me suggesting I defrag my drives, which I wil do when I have finished my current big job, and I will see if that helps. Steve has suggested rendering out my timelines to see if that helps which i am doing but i can't imagine that is it.

I'll keep trying stuff and hoping Apple release the new MacPros with expediency :)



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Christian Schumacher
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 4, 2013 at 2:34:56 am

[Julian Bowman] " I'll keep trying stuff and hoping Apple release the new MacPros with expediency :)"

Don't sell your MacPro yet, do this instead; Get an Intel SSD. Install it in ODD's lower bay, It's very simple to do. Do not transfer older OS account or clone, install fresh. Get 4 identical HDDs (1,2 or 3TB) Go to Disk utiity and build an internal RAID 0 with the HDDs (+500MB/s) You can swap those anytime you want for others you already have, no problems with this besides shutting it down, unplugging and sliding them out and in again. Your RAID will pick up again when you plug all drives back in. Get Backup Drives also (FW800) and set up Time Machine to back all up with those every hour. All this may provide you some headroom for you to wait without breaking the bank...Since you have already upped your RAM and GPU, you might try this. I'm telling you, It works.

EDIT- Don't use cheap WD Green HDDs, go for the Black ones or preferably the Enterprise ones for a good RAID experience.

Regarding FCPX. You're using two LCDs, right? Place your Event Browser at the secondary monitor and leave the Viewer smaller at the main one along with the timeline, when full screen is needed press cmd+shift+f, hiding the inspector helps a lot as well, to delete project renders in File/Delete Project Render Files is a good recurring practice too and finally get used to Preference Manager to delete your preferences. Good luck!


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Julian Bowman
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 4, 2013 at 11:25:26 pm

Hey Christian, thanks for this. I had briefly thought about Raiding my drives but the thought of decluttering my mac and reinstalling everything combined with general ignorance of the process pushed the thought out of my head. But buying a new iMac (ideally want a MacPro anyway) and external raid and back up storage is going to cost £4k and given I have already upgraded the ram and graphics card it seems like biting the bullet and spending only around £500 (SSD and new external drive for back up) is a sensible short term plan. Hoping it works :)

Some questions though.

1) I have googled and I see what you mean about the SSD in the second optical drive. Overclockers do a Intel 520 Series 240GB 2.5" SATA 6Gb/s Solid State Hard Drive for £240. Is that one you would recommend?

2) You said to ensure my 4 drives are all the same. Do you mean just the same size or the same size and brand etc.? I currently have 4 x 2TB drives in my mac and Disc Utility suggests that they are all Hitachi HDS722020ALA330 Media

3) When I Raid them all together, does it format them and delete everything on them? I'm guessing so and am transferring stuff I need to an external, but I don't know so it may leave data on there.

4) I do a fresh install of OSX on my SSD and then set that as my boot drive. At that point I can delete the OSX on my current boot drive and RAID my 4 internals. Is that correct and it as simple as that?

Right, I think that is it unless it looks like i have missed the point on something. I am, shortly, going to be at a point of having completed jobs and not having to start the edit on other jobs, so this is a good time to give this a go.

Many thanks again for the suggestion and in advance for the answer to these questions above (or to anyone else who happens to answer them).

Cheers



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Christian Schumacher
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 5, 2013 at 9:45:52 pm

[Julian Bowman] "Hey Christian, thanks for this."


Glad I can help, Julian.

...............


[Julian Bowman] "Hoping it works :)"


It should work, but have you considered also my FCPX suggestions? Depending on media type or event size those practices can help a lot... Even when booting from SSD and your media is on a internal SATA RAID, mind you. But this hardware upgrade should improve things regardless.

For reference:

- When using two LCDs, place your Event Browser at the secondary monitor and leave the Viewer smaller at the main one along with the Timeline, when full screen is needed, then you press cmd+shift+f.

- Hide the Inspector as much as you can

- To delete project renders in File/Delete Project Render Files is a good recurring practice too

- Finally, get used to Preference Manager to delete your preferences.


...............


[Julian Bowman] "1) I have googled and I see what you mean about the SSD in the second optical drive. Overclockers do a Intel 520 Series 240GB 2.5" SATA 6Gb/s Solid State Hard Drive for £240. Is that one you would recommend?"


It's a no-brainer, go for it! As to the 520 series, I only have experience with the 320 series, but the 520 should be good. What it's appealing with the 320s is that they're older than the 520s, so they have a smaller capacity and much cheaper prices. The boot drive (the SSD) should only have the OS and all applications and the RAID should contain all media, events and projects, thus your SSD can be like 80 GB without a problem, as we are pointing all the documents to the RAID we are leaving the boot drive alone. 320s are slower (3Gbs) and have been supplemented by the 520s' technologies, but the MacPro will still be very snappy with it, and you will be saving salt. This is very easy to do, and it takes only a couple of minutes to install a SSD on the ODD lower bay, so there's that. On the MacPro upgrade I did, we bought a couple of 320s with 80GB. One for a certain combination of softwares and another one for a different combination and both have access to the RAID. More on that later.


...............


[Julian Bowman] "2) You said to ensure my 4 drives are all the same. Do you mean just the same size or the same size and brand etc.? I currently have 4 x 2TB drives in my mac and Disc Utility suggests that they are all Hitachi HDS722020ALA330 Media"


Exactly, same size and brand/model. What you have should suffice.


...............


[Julian Bowman] "3) When I Raid them all together, does it format them and delete everything on them? I'm guessing so and am transferring stuff I need to an external, but I don't know so it may leave data on there."


It's a complete and irreversible reformat operation. Back up!


...............


[Julian Bowman] "4) I do a fresh install of OSX on my SSD and then set that as my boot drive. At that point I can delete the OSX on my current boot drive and RAID my 4 internals. Is that correct and it as simple as that?"


Yes, simple as that! One thing to consider though is that you should get 8TB of backup in FW800 drives for your new working set up. Software RAID 0 is the fastest and cheapest internal SATA option for the MacPro, but as all RAID 0s do, they spread bits all over the sum of drives being used. Meaning that a failure of operation in one of them should render your entire RAID completely useless/unrecoverable. It's a trade you make here; the more speed you have, more chances to fail. This is where the FW800 drives comes in. Do use them to set up your Time Machine for hourly backups of your RAID (and boot drive as well)

Another aspect of that upgrade that you should also consider is the ability to work with separate sets of HDDs. (That alone would give anyone extreme advantages over iMacs and TB drives. But ultimately, it depends on the sheer volume of media needed one person have to deal with, and budget and workflow, of course). Example, you have your current setup, keep them as they are now, slide them out of the case, replace them with additional drives that will be then your new RAID, install SSD and have your new upgraded setup. Later on, you have decided that you want to boot from your old SATA drive and revisit some old project or any other personal task. Fine, take your new drives out, place your old drives inside and boot using ALT to choose your old one on start-up. This way you can work off of a FCP classic boot or another software (or version) you don't use as much as your current upgraded FCPX setup. So, when finished, take them out and replace them with new ones raided together via software. Take note! They even don't have to be precisely in the same bays as they were before. Just don't forget to unplug the MacPro from the electric outlet before swapping any drives! You are now in business with both your new fast setup and your oldies as well. It will cost you some more money but you will be much more comfortable doing so, as you can have multiple setups and all its advantages. For instance, you can have two SSDs for booting two different systems or you can have double two drive RAIDs or a single three drive RAID plus an older HDD and so on, depending on what you are working with this can be the real deal. Note that a Disk Utility RAID will mount on any OS you boot on, including older ones like Snow Leopard (but not sure if that works with earlier ones). At the end of the day it's your call and it all depends on your needs and your current capabilities. Again, good luck!


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Julian Bowman
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 8, 2013 at 9:42:35 am

Hey Christian, I appreciate all that. I am (psychologically at least) gearing towards trying this. I need to clear a current job (asap) before starting a new edit and will try the SSD and Radi in between. Have backed up everything I don't want to lose. Only headache looks to be my Apple Mail app. Still doesn't appear to be a simple way to just copy it over, though i googled some work arounds. Anyway, when I get it done I will report back to the forum as to whether it helped or not. Hoping it does as many others seem to be running FCPX without all the lag i get on machines about the same as mine.

Again, many thanks for the suggestion and the time taken in your explanations :)



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 8, 2013 at 11:05:14 am

[Julian Bowman] " Still doesn't appear to be a simple way to just copy it over, though i googled some work arounds. "

IMAP is a savior here. If your email provider doesn't have imap:

I haven't used Mail in a while, but I used to drag the data over, then drag the preferences over and it would work.

Mail also has a decent "import" and "export" function.

Jeremy


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Julian Bowman
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 8, 2013 at 11:07:13 am

Cheers Jeremy. Will look into that a bit closer when D-Day arrives :) Appreciated.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 8, 2013 at 12:00:55 pm

No problem.

I'm not sure if that technique still works as Mail has changed a bit.

At the very least, you could export and import.


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Carsten Orlt
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 1:16:41 pm

[Julian Bowman] "but there is a thread with my macs specs, and my workflow, which is basically pro res converts on an external 2tb hard drive. "

I tried to find it but can't. Would you mind pointing to it? Thank you.

Happy Editing


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Julian Bowman
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 1:24:13 pm

Sorry, it is here:

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/49831



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Frank Gothmann
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 1:27:42 pm

A friend of mine is having brutal lagging issues with FCPX on an new iMac while the exact same project is doable on a 2010 MacPro so there is probably no best advice here.
It may be your machine, it may be your install, it may be not.
Unfortunately, in my experience, Apple's in-house software often behaves very weird and unpredictable with no proper means to figure out why and when. I have seen Motion projects that suddenly took three times longer to render after a simple reboot, nothing changed in the project itself.
I certainly wouldn't spend another 3k on an iMac if your current machine is only 2 years old. From an economic point that's insane.
Plus, in the worst case scenario you will encounter the same problems.
The architecture in an iMac is more modern with a more modern instruction set but you are talking about issues in very basic UI operations that can hardly be related to that. If a 2 year old Xeon tower has problems running a single app and everything else is fine, something is wrong with the app.

The fact that you even have to ask yourself these questions is the core of the problem here, not any functionality, track based or magnetic timeline dogmatism or whatever. Reliability and consistent behaviour is the key, certainly to me.

I'd put another hard drive in, do a clean install and see if this or a new project behaves different. Then you'll know more.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 2:53:45 pm

I guess I'll jump in since Aindreas mentioned my comments up front. My experience to date has been on beefy, reasonably new Mac Pros with fast storage. I also have some exposure to how FCP X performs on a new, loaded iMac. From what I can tell, the performance is generally better on the iMacs, but there's no guarantee. It seems inconsistent from machine to machine and production to production. My general performance observations are these:

1. The user interaction with the UI is inherently slow by design. This is caused by the fact that every action is accompanied by a graphic animation, which takes a fraction of a second to perform.

2. When you open large events, projects or a fully loaded project library, it takes a long time to buffer all of that info into RAM. That's because you are accessing waveform caches, filmstrips, etc.

3. As you go through organizing media in an event and adding a lot of keywords, the system takes a while to catch up. It seems like there's a lot of background updating going on, even when no background tasks are specifically identified. This gets worse the more clips you have and the more these are cross-referenced across multiple collections. Sometimes this will settle done if you go through the process, let the machine sit for a while and come back to the project later, such as the next day.

4. Complex projects seem to suffer from RAM leaks. The more you do, the more sluggish it becomes. Close and relaunch and the performance is zippy again.

5. Complex plug-ins are slow to update with UI interaction. This means two things. First, you move a slider and the image is slow to update. My guess is that's because there's no resolution throttle like there is in After Effects. Quality is either full or half-res, but nothing below that, which kicks in when you actually make a change. Motion has always been hurt by this since its beginning. Second, real-time (un-rendered) playback performance is poor. I see this in most of the third-party filters, like BCC8, Sapphire Edge, etc. I also see it in complex Motion templates, where a lot of tasks are ganged into the same effect. The built-in FCP X effects seem to work the best, but they are also extremely simplistic. Compare DVShade to any of the built-in looks or stylize effects and you can see what I mean.

6. Playback through broadcast cards is not good when skimming or scrubbing - at least not with Decklinks. A/V output simply doesn't keep up with the operator, though sync playback at normal speed is pretty good. I have seen much better performance with some of the Thunderbolt units, like AJA's IoXT.

7. Playback though to the screen or via broadcast output often stutters. This is not dropping frames, but seems to be the way the screen is refreshed for vertical sync. That appears to also affect the broadcast output, which is handled by the OS now. The bottom line is that live playback through a card cannot be used for mastering under FCP X's power. I guess that's why they call it broadcast monitoring and not broadcast mastering. Again, there seems to be a consistency issue. I can see this problem one day and then open the same project the next and it's fine.

8. Skimming often gets "stuck" when quickly going between events and projects. You often have to click and load an event clip to get the playhead/cursor to properly respond.

9. Often you will start to play a project timeline and video stays frozen or in black. Stopping and starting again at the head seems to "wakes up" X.

I have not done any extensive testing since the 10.0.8 update, so I'm not sure how some of this might have improved. To talk about modern machines and old Mac Pros is a complete cop-out, IMHO. These same machines are running Media Composer/Symphony, Premiere Pro, Smoke 2013, FCP 7, FCP X and Resolve. For the most part, none of these other applications display these symptoms. Or at least not as many of them.

Depending on the functions, a loaded 4-year-old Mac Pro will outperform a new iMac or Retina MBP - especially in tasks that use rendering, or take advantage of extra GPU power in the NVIDIA cards. What's more likely is that Apple has simply been doing all of its development on iMacs, with total internal indifference to Mac Pros. Simply because iMacs are the newest company design and ProApps isn't any more privy to unreleased hardware than the average users. So yes, maybe they've tweaked for i7 processors. Unfortunately, this doesn't appear consistent among all iMac users.

Aah... But the next version will be soooooooo much better ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 3:51:20 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I guess I'll jump in since Aindreas mentioned my comments up front. My experience to date has been on beefy, reasonably new Mac Pros with fast storage. I also have some exposure to how FCP X performs on a new, loaded iMac. From what I can tell, the performance is generally better on the iMacs, but there's no guarantee. It seems inconsistent from machine to machine and production to production. My general performance observations are these:

1. The user interaction with the UI is inherently slow by design. This is caused by the fact that every action is accompanied by a graphic animation, which takes a fraction of a second to perform.

2. When you open large events, projects or a fully loaded project library, it takes a long time to buffer all of that info into RAM. That's because you are accessing waveform caches, filmstrips, etc.

3. As you go through organizing media in an event and adding a lot of keywords, the system takes a while to catch up. It seems like there's a lot of background updating going on, even when no background tasks are specifically identified. This gets worse the more clips you have and the more these are cross-referenced across multiple collections. Sometimes this will settle done if you go through the process, let the machine sit for a while and come back to the project later, such as the next day.

4. Complex projects seem to suffer from RAM leaks. The more you do, the more sluggish it becomes. Close and relaunch and the performance is zippy again.

5. Complex plug-ins are slow to update with UI interaction. This means two things. First, you move a slider and the image is slow to update. My guess is that's because there's no resolution throttle like there is in After Effects. Quality is either full or half-res, but nothing below that, which kicks in when you actually make a change. Motion has always been hurt by this since its beginning. Second, real-time (un-rendered) playback performance is poor. I see this in most of the third-party filters, like BCC8, Sapphire Edge, etc. I also see it in complex Motion templates, where a lot of tasks are ganged into the same effect. The built-in FCP X effects seem to work the best, but they are also extremely simplistic. Compare DVShade to any of the built-in looks or stylize effects and you can see what I mean.

6. Playback through broadcast cards is not good when skimming or scrubbing - at least not with Decklinks. A/V output simply doesn't keep up with the operator, though sync playback at normal speed is pretty good. I have seen much better performance with some of the Thunderbolt units, like AJA's IoXT.

7. Playback though to the screen or via broadcast output often stutters. This is not dropping frames, but seems to be the way the screen is refreshed for vertical sync. That appears to also affect the broadcast output, which is handled by the OS now. The bottom line is that live playback through a card cannot be used for mastering under FCP X's power. I guess that's why they call it broadcast monitoring and not broadcast mastering. Again, there seems to be a consistency issue. I can see this problem one day and then open the same project the next and it's fine.

8. Skimming often gets "stuck" when quickly going between events and projects. You often have to click and load an event clip to get the playhead/cursor to properly respond.

9. Often you will start to play a project timeline and video stays frozen or in black. Stopping and starting again at the head seems to "wakes up" X.

I have not done any extensive testing since the 10.0.8 update, so I'm not sure how some of this might have improved. To talk about modern machines and old Mac Pros is a complete cop-out, IMHO. These same machines are running Media Composer/Symphony, Premiere Pro, Smoke 2013, FCP 7, FCP X and Resolve. For the most part, none of these other applications display these symptoms. Or at least not as many of them.

Depending on the functions, a loaded 4-year-old Mac Pro will outperform a new iMac or Retina MBP - especially in tasks that use rendering, or take advantage of extra GPU power in the NVIDIA cards. What's more likely is that Apple has simply been doing all of its development on iMacs, with total internal indifference to Mac Pros. Simply because iMacs are the newest company design and ProApps isn't any more privy to unreleased hardware than the average users. So yes, maybe they've tweaked for i7 processors. Unfortunately, this doesn't appear consistent among all iMac users.
"


Sounds like a nightmare, I can't imagine why anyone would choose to use FCPX

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 4:01:42 pm

[Steve Connor] "Sounds like a nightmare, I can't imagine why anyone would choose to use FCPX"

I think you have to look at it as a matter of degree. All software suffers from some issues. There are pros and cons. These happen to be the cons that affect many FCP X users to varying degrees. But they do exist and need to be addressed by Apple.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 4:30:30 pm

[Oliver Peters] "These happen to be the cons that affect many FCP X users to varying degrees. But they do exist and need to be addressed by Apple."

This is a reasonable and helpful statement. This: "Aah... But the next version will be soooooooo much better ;-)" really isn't. The implication being that people who aren't having these problems, or who have experienced them occasionally at one time or other but aren't terribly bothered by them, are somehow brainwashed, uncritical rubes who think Apple and FCP X are perfect. That's kind of a broad brush, don't you think?

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 4:56:16 pm

[Charlie Austin] "The implication being that people who aren't having these problems,....That's kind of a broad brush, don't you think?"

Wow!!!! You are reading a whole lot more into that comment than intended. I would say that about any software. It's generic. There was no implication at all - please don't make it as if there was.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 5:11:25 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Wow!!!! You are reading a whole lot more into that comment than intended. I would say that about any software. It's generic. There was no implication at all - please don't make it as if there was.
"


I guess you're right... I'm getting a little thin-skinned lately, which is probably not the best skin type to have. LOL FWIW, I find your posts to be informative and reasonable. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 5:19:55 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I guess you're right... I'm getting a little thin-skinned lately, which is probably not the best skin type to have. LOL FWIW, I find your posts to be informative and reasonable. :-)"

Thanks. I do realize some of these points sound like a litany of complaints. Obviously if I weren't using the app productively, I wouldn't put it in front of clients. That's far from the case, as I've done almost every session through it for months. There are times where I have to tap-dance around some of these items, but on balance, there are way more pros than cons. For me - and others on this list - at least that's been the experience.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 6:40:05 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Charlie Austin] "I guess you're right... I'm getting a little thin-skinned lately, which is probably not the best skin type to have. LOL FWIW, I find your posts to be informative and reasonable. :-)"

Thanks. I do realize some of these points sound like a litany of complaints. Obviously if I weren't using the app productively, I wouldn't put it in front of clients. That's far from the case, as I've done almost every session through it for months. There are times where I have to tap-dance around some of these items, but on balance, there are way more pros than cons. For me - and others on this list - at least that's been the experience."


Agreed. I do think that, in some cases, problems with people's installations are attributed to problems with X, but that's understandable. As you point out, for a lot of people, myself included, the pro's outweigh the cons. And there certainly are cons, but no deal breakers for me. I have to do the tap dance now and again, and I need to keep a copy of FCP 7 around to do things like capture to tape. Which I could do in X with a 3'rd party app, but it's all going to a central server so why not use 7, since it works.

That's sort of an example of how I see X's shortcomings. I know that lack of tape based capabilities is a big deal for some folks. I guess I just look at it differently. The last 2 jobs I've started in X have had DV CAM sources. But my reaction isn't disappointment that X doesn't do this well, it's more like "what the hell is wrong with this dept. of this studio?!" They're kind of in the minority now. We get features from the same studio (and most others FWIW) as nice HD files on drives, but these guys still send tapes? Which have to be captured in real time, sometimes have TC breaks and, my favorite... get eaten by the deck (knock wood) etc etc. Oh well... they'll change eventually and I'll work around it 'til they do.

Sorry for that OT rant... i'm just digitizing crap when i could be cutting it so it's on my little mind. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 7:28:25 pm

[Charlie Austin] " The last 2 jobs I've started in X have had DV CAM sources. But my reaction isn't disappointment that X doesn't do this well, it's more like "what the hell is wrong with this dept. of this studio?!" They're kind of in the minority now. We get features from the same studio (and most others FWIW) as nice HD files on drives, but these guys still send tapes?"

I'm fortunate in that I have not needed to work with tape much over the past few years. There are still enough shops in town that have decks, so that on the few occasions where tape ingest or output is required, I can simply buy time, walk in with a drive and get the job done. Far cheaper for me (or the company I'm freelancing for) to do that than invest in the purchase and maintenance of tape decks. Plus the facilities who still have them, make some additional revenue off of that investment. So it's really a win-win.

Ironically, I think FCP X is the best-suited NLE for a server-based environment. If you look at the AS-11 integration and the Hamburg Pro Audio tools, X actually seems to make a very nice editing client connected to a central server operation. So down the road, X might easily become the preferred NLE for news editing. That's a bit different than my world, but the hooks seem to be there.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 8:41:10 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Ironically, I think FCP X is the best-suited NLE for a server-based environment."

Yeah, but it's weird when people say the collaboration in FCPX is no good, when in fact, it works OK if you know how to use it, you actually have a shared environment setup, or use something like John Davidson uses with sparse bundles.

Jeremy


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 9:06:29 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "collaboration in FCPX is no good"

I think the potential for collaboration in X is just fine, especially with some of the stuff John has shown. Its just not up to the industrial strength that ISIS can bring, but far fewer people need that.

I DO have to say that Bin sharing in Avid has been a delight for me, and I wish more NLEs allowed me to put together such a nice portable kit that I could then consolidate for others. Its really handy. When I was last using Avid before this re-up, portable storage wasn't even part of the picture.


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 9:51:24 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I think the potential for collaboration in X is just fine, especially with some of the stuff John has shown. Its just not up to the industrial strength that ISIS can bring, but far fewer people need that. "

True. And i may be repeating a post I made in another thread here... But previously, duplicating a project + used clips, or duplicating an event, copied all the original source media to the duplicate... even if the original project/event was using referenced media. This made the duplicates A-gigantic, and B-broke all connection to shared media. This sucked . :-/ However, As of .08 that's no longer the case, it will just copy the symlinks. Huge improvement that facilitates basic bay to bay project sharing - pretty much just like duplicating a project in 7 and handing it to someone else. Getting there...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 9:57:24 pm

[Charlie Austin] "True. And i may be repeating a post I made in another thread here... But previously, duplicating a project + used clips, or duplicating an event, copied all the original source media to the duplicate... even if the original project/event was using referenced media. This made the duplicates A-gigantic, and B-broke all connection to shared media. This sucked . :-/ However, As of .08 that's no longer the case, it will just copy the symlinks. Huge improvement that facilitates basic bay to bay project sharing - pretty much just like duplicating a project in 7 and handing it to someone else. Getting there...
"


Thanks, I hadn't realised that had been fixed

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 10:06:52 pm

[Steve Connor] "Thanks, I hadn't realised that had been fixed"

Me neither, Saw it on Alex4d's blog the other day and tried it out. Very nice, and very useful fix.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 1:52:10 am

[Chris Harlan] "I think the potential for collaboration in X is just fine, especially with some of the stuff John has shown. Its just not up to the industrial strength that ISIS can bring, but far fewer people need that. "

I would word this differently in that "far fewer people will pay for that". If the tool was available to more users for a better cost, people would find use for a shared environment.

What I find most intriguing about FCPX sharing is that the Projects are separate, in the Finder, from Events which means parting out sections of material is really easy. This is a different mindset from FCP7, is closer to an Avid (or Media 100) setup.

Also, if you need to share a bunch of clips, tossing a mess of them in a Project, exporting the metadata view to "everything" with an XML, allows another user to import the XML and it creates a new Event with the new clips. It's really easy, there's nearly zero Finder work that needs to be done, no media managing, no file structure, nothing. Keywords come in, organization comes in, a timeline comes in. It's truly useful and rather remarkable, and also different from how FCP7 works.

I know that people say collaboration is no good in FCPX, but I find it to be a bit better than 7 (for my needs), albeit different.


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 2:24:38 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I would word this differently in that "far fewer people will pay for that". If the tool was available to more users for a better cost, people would find use for a shared environment.
"


I see what you are saying. What I was really referring to is that far fewer people have an actual need to have multiple users in the same project at the same time, as opposed to working on the same project at the same time. For large hard-deadlined non-scripteds, for instance, its critical. For many others, its a terrific convenience, but a convenience that can be achieved, or nearly achieved, by a variety of alternate workarounds.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Also, if you need to share a bunch of clips, tossing a mess of them in a Project, exporting the metadata view to "everything" with an XML, allows another user to import the XML and it creates a new Event with the new clips. It's really easy, there's nearly zero Finder work that needs to be done, no media managing, no file structure, nothing. Keywords come in, organization comes in, a timeline comes in. It's truly useful and rather remarkable, and also different from how FCP7 works.
"


That's terrific. Sounds like its getting close to the all around utility of MC's bin model. Sounds like sharing is definitely better than 7. In 7, I would throw a bunch of clips into a timeline and media manage to share, which was okay, but that you can bring keywords, means that its like sending bins, too. That's cool. Can you media manage in X yet? If I just wanted to give somebody a small portion of a project in a separate folder or sneaker-net drive, can I give them just the clips I choose with handles?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 5:30:15 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I see what you are saying. What I was really referring to is that far fewer people have an actual need to have multiple users in the same project at the same time, as opposed to working on the same project at the same time. For large hard-deadlined non-scripteds, for instance, its critical. For many others, its a terrific convenience, but a convenience that can be achieved, or nearly achieved, by a variety of alternate workarounds. "

True, but if the capability was there, people would use it in ways that don't necessarily follow conventional wisdom and workflow, you know?

For instance, I could keep editing on my laptop, while the desktop churns through Proxy or high res creation or difficult renders, exporting master files, etc.

[Chris Harlan] "In 7, I would throw a bunch of clips into a timeline and media manage to share, which was okay, but that you can bring keywords, means that its like sending bins, too."

Precisely, Chris.

[Chris Harlan] "If I just wanted to give somebody a small portion of a project in a separate folder or sneaker-net drive, can I give them just the clips I choose with handles?"

FCPX still uses full clips only (it does not trim down existing clips), BUT you can send only "used clips" which helps to cut down on a massive Event with multitudes of clips.


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 5:44:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Chris Harlan] "If I just wanted to give somebody a small portion of a project in a separate folder or sneaker-net drive, can I give them just the clips I choose with handles?"

FCPX still uses full clips only (it does not trim down existing clips), BUT you can send only "used clips" which helps to cut down on a massive Event with multitudes of clips.
"


Sadly, for what I do, that's still a big problem in the sharing department. A single file is usually about 60 gigs and a sizzle project can have a couple of TBs worth of those files. Much easier to hand someone 35 seconds of a sizzle to polish when its boiled down to clips with handles. I still require some form of media management/consolidation as a basic function of what I do for both sharing and archiving.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 5:59:14 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Much easier to hand someone 35 seconds of a sizzle to polish when its boiled down to clips with handles. "

Yep. Trimming is needed. I still use FCP7 for it. :(

You could also use Resolve with the FCPX XML round trip, but it is less elegant and the trimming function should be built in to FCPX.

Jeremy


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 10:14:52 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Yeah, but it's weird when people say the collaboration in FCPX is no good, when in fact, it works OK if you know how to use it,"

I'm not sure I agree there. Collaboration is all about project sharing. There are way more workarounds with X than with "legacy" or PPro. None are as good as Avid Unity/ISIS/Interplay or apparently Lightworks. I think there's still a lot of work to be done.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 10:37:55 pm

[Oliver Peters] "There are way more workarounds with X than with "legacy" or PPro. None are as good as Avid Unity/ISIS/Interplay or apparently Lightworks. I think there's still a lot of work to be done."

While i agree with your assesment of Avid etc, I think that with the fix I mentioned above, it's now pretty much on par with FCP Classic, with a couple added steps. I guess one can already do full Event/Project sharing with X using SAN locations/Sparse disks, though that belief is based on others experiences rather than my own. But as far as handing sequences back and forth in a centrally shared media environment (if files are local it's a problem, but it would be in Classic as well), It seems like it's pretty much the same.

In Classic to share an entire project just duplicate it and give the duplicate to the other editor who opens it and goes on their merry way. To share a sequence, make a new project, copy the sequence into it and hand the project off.

In X... .08 anyway... you can just duplicate the event, and hand it off. Editor 2 puts it in their FCP events folder, and opens it up. To share projects associated with that event as well, duplicate them. put them in a folder (all from within FCP X of course, not the Finder!), and give that to editor 2 as well, who puts it in their projects folder. 2 or 3 extra steps, same result.

To hand off a sequence, duplicate + used clips (no render files), hand off duplicate project and new "used clips" event. Done.

So, while not quite as idiot proof as 7, not wildly different now either... Unless I'm missing something.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 10:43:33 pm

[Charlie Austin] "In X... .08 anyway... you can just duplicate the event, and hand it off. Editor 2 ...... To hand off a sequence, duplicate + used clips (no render files), hand off duplicate project and new "used clips" event. Done."

Agreed.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 11:22:10 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I'm not sure I agree there."

I said it was "OK", not Avid Isis, and there's a huge difference.

So you would say that collaboration in FCPX is not OK?

It doesn't work like FCP7 (or Pr) at all.


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Keith Koby
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 10:36:22 am

I agree with Jeremy... It works OK. At least as ok as it did with 7 and in some points better. I agree with you too Oliver in that it can be better. I hope it gets there.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 2:47:53 am

[Oliver Peters] "I'm fortunate in that I have not needed to work with tape much over the past few years. There are still enough shops in town that have decks, so that on the few occasions where tape ingest or output is required, I can simply buy time, walk in with a drive and get the job done. Far cheaper for me (or the company I'm freelancing for) to do that than invest in the purchase and maintenance of tape decks. Plus the facilities who still have them, make some additional revenue off of that investment. So it's really a win-win.
"


Yeah, that's where I've been for the last five or six years, and tape is now such a rarity for me, that its been more than a year since I've touched one.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 7:29:33 pm

[Charlie Austin] "That's sort of an example of how I see X's shortcomings. I know that lack of tape based capabilities is a big deal for some folks. I guess I just look at it differently. The last 2 jobs I've started in X have had DV CAM sources. But my reaction isn't disappointment that X doesn't do this well, it's more like "what the hell is wrong with this dept. of this studio?!" They're kind of in the minority now. We get features from the same studio (and most others FWIW) as nice HD files on drives, but these guys still send tapes? Which have to be captured in real time, sometimes have TC breaks and, my favorite... get eaten by the deck (knock wood) etc etc. Oh well... they'll change eventually and I'll work around it 'til they do.

Sorry for that OT rant... i'm just digitizing crap when i could be cutting it so it's on my little mind. :-)"


I guess this if the fundamental difference between how folks perceive things. Admittedly I am not an edit for hire guy, but Apple's philosophy of only the newest and shiniest rubs me the wrong way. I love working with old and new technology in my attempt to create a certain look. That Apple seems to be saying: "Gee, you can only embrace tapeless if you want to work with us" feels a big limitation in an artistic sense. Hey if I have a reason for shooting on HDV, DV, Betacam, or VHS, who is Apple to say, no you can't do that?

I recently acquired a large collection of stuff that was shot by many of my artist friends on VHS in the 80s and 90s. Far from bemoaning having to "digitizing crap," going through this very experimental footage is revealing gems of creativity. And it has a look that is all its own.

Admittedly, I am very small potatoes in the scheme of things and my artistic concerns aren't all that widespread. But still...


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 7:32:18 pm

[Clint Wardlow] ""Gee, you can only embrace tapeless if you want to work with us" feels a big limitation in an artistic sense. Hey if I have a reason for shooting on HDV, DV, Betacam, or VHS, who is Apple to say, no you can't do that?"

Of course if you need to you can ingest tape from other sources quite easily using your video cards capture utility

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 7:56:15 pm

Which brings up an important point: the engineer guy at the large network (which I can't name) I freelance at swears that AJA's tape capture & layback utility is not frame accurate. At least not the layback. For those who archive or deliver on tape this is kind of a deal breaker.

Anyone have thoughts or experience with this? Specifically, the AJA VTR Exchange?


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Frank Gothmann
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 8:39:08 pm

[Steve Connor] "Of course if you need to you can ingest tape from other sources quite easily using your video cards capture utility"

Unfortunately, there are quite a few workflows where the card utilities are pretty useless or cause a lot of extra work.

"Tape is dead" is far from true in my experience. 70 per cent of the stuff we get or have to deliver tape and that won't significantly change for quite a while.
Fortunately I have to say; a lot of the stuff we get on hard drive has issues you usually don't see with tape because it's coming from bigger post houses.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 7:36:19 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "That Apple seems to be saying: "Gee, you can only embrace tapeless if you want to work with us" feels a big limitation in an artistic sense. Hey if I have a reason for shooting on HDV, DV, Betacam, or VHS, who is Apple to say, no you can't do that?"

I don't believe that's not what Apple is saying at all. Rather, why should they re-build that function for the very few users who might need it. The solution already exists in the utilities included with the cards you will need anyway. Or with FCP7. It has always been their stated assumption, that users wouldn't instantly abandon FCP7 to move to X. That's one of the reasons that the reactions took them by surprise. And FWIW, you can capture HDV into X.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Clint Wardlow
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 7:52:33 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I don't believe that's not what Apple is saying at all. Rather, why should they re-build that function for the very few users who might need it. The solution already exists in the utilities included with the cards you will need anyway. Or with FCP7. It has always been their stated assumption, that users wouldn't instantly abandon FCP7 to move to X. That's one of the reasons that the reactions took them by surprise. And FWIW, you can capture HDV into X."

It is not so much that I can capture the footage. I already have to jump through some hoops to digitize analog video or audio (including buying an an old VHS professional editing deck that allows me to capture audio tracks without internal mixing). And don't even get me going on how expensive it is to get decent files from super8.

It is more of the idea that Apple seems to want me to update my technology (with the not inconsiderable cost entailed) every two years. But I guess I am just being curmudgeonly on this. Apple sure isn't alone on this.

It is just my belief that we have been forced into a world of temporary art that dissipates as fast as it is produced. In the future will be locked away in some discarded file format that can't be opened even if anybody wanted to.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 3, 2013 at 7:16:55 am

[Clint Wardlow] "It is more of the idea that Apple seems to want me to update my technology (with the not inconsiderable cost entailed) every two years. But I guess I am just being curmudgeonly on this. Apple sure isn't alone on this.

It is just my belief that we have been forced into a world of temporary art that dissipates as fast as it is produced. In the future will be locked away in some discarded file format that can't be opened even if anybody wanted to.
"


I feel your concern, but is this rapid obsolescence being driven by Apple? Or more by the general rapidity of the technological evolution happening in labs all over the world?

The fact is that processors, connectivity, memory and software design are ALL evolving very rapidly. In an environment like that, "freezing" your technical specs OR your requirement for hardware backwards compatibility at any point for too long, seems like a pretty sure recipe for competitive disaster.

The plumbing in any NLE is exists in service to the components that sit at the pinch points in signal flow. And as those improve, the software MUST be able to keep up.

I personally think that FCP-X is being designed largely for hardware that is on the development benches at Apple - where there IS a roadmap for where the company expects computer systems to be in 2, 3 or 5 years. Anything else would be silly.

So they create, and ship knowing that some customers with older hardware will struggle - but that time and evolution are the eventual things that will break through the present constraints and allow the software approach to take better advantage of the hardware of the future.

It's kinda competitive Darwinism. And evolving without adapting to the newer climates is a good way to become extinct.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 3, 2013 at 7:37:01 am

Sad new hardware is affected as well, where others have proven it doesn't have to be that way. And some of the lag-issues seems similar on 2008 and 2012 machines which makes me think "design flaw" at the core.

That said, some things with X is nice but the engine really feels like a work in progress.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 3, 2013 at 9:34:22 am

We must just push it differently. Over the last two updates, my FCP-X editing performance has been amazingly smoothe and trouble free. Increasingly rare instances of lag or instability, mostly where I've come to expect them like upon reading in clip data for the very first time.

Once I have X in true edit mode, it just disappears like any other good tool.

It's no difference from how Legacy initially annoyed me when I has to pause to render something to see how it really looked in motion - over time it became nothing more or less then the expected behavior.

For instance, when I select a clip with a whole bunch of connections, I don't expect it to "grab" quite as rapidly as one with just a few. I suppose it's a matter of habituation. But in my mind, I expect no impediments to getting my work done when I sit down at X, and that's pretty much exactly what happens.

I know others have issues. But honestly, I rarely, if ever, seem to. It just works for me.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 3, 2013 at 10:07:26 am

With a/v output on there is a constant play / pause lag on my two systems. This is a maxed out 2008 MacPro and 2012 iMac. There is something very wrong when this happens.

This is just a thing that shouldn't be happening without the systems being taxes with FX.

The second "lag" issue is what you mention when moving editing blocks around. In general on the iMac things are smooth here but there is still this "rubber band" feel that's not so good.

On the flip side, editing with some fx (3 CC's + transformation and a few blur filters) works impressively on the iMac. It's a bit silly the playback setting can't be changed on the fly while editing as "High quality" stutters here but the "High performance" is a great boost and as you say - using that and skipping a/v output the tool almost becomes transparent. Even with 4-9 multicam clips it just keeps on running.

Still a few big issues to nail down. The GUI can become really sluggish as well which isn't OK and the simple playback to ref-monitor is subpar.


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James Culbertson
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 9:12:27 pm

I am still working off of internal SATA drives in a 2006 MacPro 1,1, 12GB RAM, and a 5770. ...I'm hoping for a new MacPro but should probably just buy an iMac.

I definitely have to occasionally render certain things in the timeline, and also transcode to prores or prores proxy for certain source codecs, but I can't say that I encounter sluggishness all that much.

Now that I have gotten used to the built in CC I don't find myself needing 3rd party CC plugins all that much.

I agree with John; as much as I love After Effects, it really is time to learn Motion fully.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 11:23:12 am

Q: Are there responsiveness issues in FCPX?
A: In short - yes.

A longer answer is more complex but simple playback is lacking in FCPX from my experience especially when working out over a video card. This is my experience on minimal projects with a 2008 MacPro and a Kona 3 as well as a 2012 iMac 27" pretty much maxed out and a BM TB interface. This is excluding the so called "lag build-up" with larger events and projects.


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shawn Bockoven
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 1, 2013 at 10:22:09 pm

We had these lags until it was discovered that the Mac Pros we booting in 32 bit mode. Just a thought.


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John Pale
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 12:28:18 am

"We had these lags until it was discovered that the Mac Pros we booting in 32 bit mode. Just a thought."

It would be impossible to boot in 32 bit mode using Mountain Lion, as it has no 32 bit kernel and cannot run in 32 bit mode.

Earlier versions of MacOSX, it is possible. Less likely with Lion, as it normally defaults to the 64 bit kernel, unless you are on hardware that can't use it...such as a Mac Pro 1,1 or 2,1.

If you are using a Mac Pro 1,1 or 2,1, you are incapable of running the 64 bit kernel without extreme hackery, as the computer only has 32 bit EFI.


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shawn Bockoven
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 12:48:47 am

We have not upgraded to Mountain Lion.


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Rafael Amador
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 4:27:30 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Oliver Peters] "Ironically, I think FCP X is the best-suited NLE for a server-based environment."

Yeah, but it's weird when people say the collaboration in FCPX is no good, when in fact, it works OK if you know how to use it, you actually have a shared environment setup, or use something like John Davidson uses with sparse bundles."



[Charlie Austin] "[Carsten Orlt] "The real advantage that FCPx gives me is that I actually have to think less about the mechanics than about the content I'm creating. This is the real revolution. "

That's it in a nutshell for me as well. "


Are all of you talking seriously?

When a newcomer comes to FC Forum asking how to share a project his his friend in Alaska, you can explain the process in two lines.
The solutions are workaround you are proposing are not OK for video editors.
Do you really now "think less about the mechanic than about the contents creation"?

I agree, now you don't need to know any video specific technology (YUB/RGB, pixels aspects, data rates,..), but you need to get deeper in other no-video related technologies (computing, server management..).

Is this the way to "unleash the creative freedom", when you need to be a System Engineer to be able to set a proper workflow?
Is this an application made to make things easy for the editor when a minimal mistake in organizing and planning can leads to a mine-filed without way out?

We can call the glass half empty or half full, or just to call it half a glass.

[Charlie Austin] "Agreed. I do think that, in some cases, problems with people's installations are attributed to problems with X, "
I fully agree with you.
Installation and System Maintenance.
Without a properly optimized system, no application can run smoothly.
Do people repair Permissions, clean caches, rebuild directories..?
rafael


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 4:38:49 am

[Rafael Amador] "When a newcomer comes to FC Forum asking how to share a project his his friend in Alaska, you can explain the process in two lines.
The solutions are workaround you are proposing are not OK for video editors."


You might want to read a bit further in the thread. But here's how to share an X project with your friend in Alaska:

1-get all the media to them, or ensure they have the same media as you do (just like any other NLE requires)

2-Duplicate your Event and Project and give them the copies. They put them in the proper directories, open FCPX, and edit. Maybe some relinking is involved, but this is also common to other NLE''s as well right?

2A-they perform steps 1&2 to get it back to you. Not that difficult really... :-)

Even easier if you have all your media local in the Event folder. 1-Copy your Event and Project. 2 Get it to Alaska. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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John Pale
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 2, 2013 at 12:46:28 pm

"We have not upgraded to Mountain Lion."

Kind of suspected that, but posted the info for others. Without more background on the issue, some could end up chasing their tails troubleshooting the 64/32 bit setting when it was a non issue for them.


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Nicholas Kleczewski
Re: FCPX and very occasional lag.
on Apr 3, 2013 at 1:57:49 pm

It has been pretty well documented on creative cow and others that FCPX does not run on a MacPro nearly as well as it does on an iMac or MBP in the area of the issues you are talking about. Doesn't matter if its a brand new MacPro or the age of the one your describing. I'm sure theres weird tuning reasons by engineers as to why this is and them just never bothering to make it work as well as it could with old tech but, most pretty informed people think it as something to do with this:

http://software.intel.com/en-us/avx/

Apple mentions it quite specifically here:
http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/all-features/

Basically FCPX wants to take advantage of some modern extensions that let FCPX zip that dont exist in the processor family that MacPros use. There seems to be no feasible way to completely know for sure if this is true, and of course Apple would never admit, but at this point it seems to be the answer.

I would argue, that yes, rendering matters, a lot. So multi proc, all you can throw at it matters. But what matters more, what happens when you walk away, or how the program feels on a macro second to second basis stalling just that tiny bit with every decision you make. I've gone back and forth on numerous projects small and huge between MacPros and my macbook retina and the difference is apparent very quickly.

Basically, don't waste another penny on MacPro upgrades if all you need it for is FCPX, the new one is imminent at this point lets face it and will at the very least support a processor with AVX and god knows what else.

Director, Editor, Colorist
http://www.trsociety.com


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