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Software and Trust: The Google Example

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Franz Bieberkopf
Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 25, 2013 at 9:47:27 pm

It's been interesting to watch all the reaction to Google's recent announcement of the impending EOL of Google Reader.

(A typical sample: "If we can’t trust Google to keep successful applications around, why should we bother trying to use their new applications, such as Google Keep.")
http://radar.oreilly.com/2013/03/the-demise-of-google-reader-stability-as-a...

(Another example: "Now, most people don’t use Google Reader, or even know it’s being canceled. ... This is a pained whine emanating almost exclusively from Google power users.")
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/21/googles-trust-pr...

It raises the issue once again of how user's respond to trust issues about the software they use (and over which they have no control) - the peasants at the gates, to borrow an analogy from Walter Murch.

I've pointed out similar parallels to certain Apple NLE software in the past:
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/45361

The Google example is interesting as it seems to affect a vocal minority (some would call them niche users) who are both tech savvy and media savvy enough to have their frustration vented more publicly.

Franz.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 25, 2013 at 10:31:30 pm

Which is why I'd say trust no company. Apple is just one of many companies that shift gears as they see fit.



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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 25, 2013 at 10:49:11 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Which is why I'd say trust no company."

Craig,

I think the more interesting questions are why and how people come to rely on their software and electronics.

You can see it here in these forums for example - people expect Apple to continue to develop and support Final Cut Pro X. They trust, or want to trust, that the software will be there, and be better, in the future (however vaguely defined).

Another example (discussed recently) - the question of software rental vs. purchase. (Purchase seems to require less trust on the face of it.)

I don't think it's a binary question - it's a question of how far and in what ways we are willing to trust corporations, and maybe more interestingly what sort of agency we might be able to develop in that relationship (be it through government tools like consumer protections or private collective initiatives like Murch's mythical "professional editor certification" for products).

Franz.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 25, 2013 at 11:20:49 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I don't think it's a binary question - it's a question of how far and in what ways we are willing to trust corporations, "

For me, zilch. I'm along for the ride and expect every wave to crash even though some will be bigger and longer than others. It's not even just products but entire corporations may crash or trash. The one thing I can say generally (and there are exceptions) is that the crash and trash doesn't quite cost as much for us enduser as it did a decade ago. It's the story of big iron and facilities.

For me, my trust goes as far as cost and how quickly I can recoup the ROI. If the product lasts that long then I'm good to go. Obviously I'd like things to last longer but it's not something I trust in.

[Franz Bieberkopf] "maybe more interestingly what sort of agency we might be able to develop in that relationship (be it through government tools like consumer protections or private collective initiatives"

As far as software goes some would argue Open Source is the solution as something will keep going as long as a body of developers are interested in keeping it going.

I'm not sure how gov't or consumer protections would work in this case beyond the commitment for warrantied service and support. Of course if that were extended, companies might proceed more cautiously and on the other side there would be those who claimed it was stifling innovation.



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John Davidson
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 25, 2013 at 10:35:23 pm

Why stop there? Google's done a lot more than that.

Google's gmail dropped exchange, essentially killing push email from Gmail on all new idevices.
Google Apps is now a paid service, no longer free for small business ($50/yr per user).
Google reader is now dead man walking.

I really wish Apple would allow some sort of custom email hosting like Google Apps did, but it's looking more and more likely that we will probably be switching to our own mac mini server for email as push is kind of a big deal for us.

What's next to kill? I'd expect google voice to get canned or turn into a paid option soon. I'm not saying that google is completely wrong, they are a for profit company that needs to generate revenue for services rendered. This is part of an overall trend of companies messing with success in order to turn an actual profit. Facebook is now putting up sponsored posts, twitter has annoying sponsored tweets, etc. Internet users are fickle and like free stuff. Take away the free - why stay?

Apple's initial release of FCPX may have been somewhat upsetting, but it's getting better. Google, Facebook, and Twitter however, are getting worse.



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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 25, 2013 at 10:41:39 pm

[John Davidson] "Apple's initial release of FCPX may have been somewhat upsetting, but it's getting better."

John,

I'm not sure how this addresses the trust issue.

Franz.


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John Davidson
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 25, 2013 at 10:49:56 pm

I wasn't disagreeing with you.



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John Godwin
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 25, 2013 at 10:55:50 pm

I have a much bigger trust issue with cloud apps. As long as I have software resident on my computer I can access my work and at the minimum rescue it and get it into a form I can use elsewhere. If someone in "the cloud" decides to shut something down that's a lot more troubling to me than stopping development on a program that I can still use for months or years if necessary, because its still available.

Best,
John


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 25, 2013 at 11:52:26 pm

Rather. There is absolutely no way in hell I am going to Creative cloud for instance. I love adobe, CS6 is a mountain of goodness, but I will take the upgrade price penalty over perpetual rental - up to the point where Shantanu Narayen appears as GIF on the upgrade screen going:

"three thousand dollars to upgrade!! Why not try Creative Cloud??"







Quotes (fictitious) from the video:

A:"So I feel the answer is Creative Cloud"

Q: Are you going to hike the price once everyone is on the hook?
A: "You need to look at creative cloud."

Q: What is creative Cloud going to cost in three years once we're locked in?
A:"creative Cloud, a cloud that is creative, made mostly from creative - but it is a cloud"


Q: What is it going to cost?
A: "It's a particulate cloud, made from creative essences, that we want you all to pay a monthly fee for"

Q: No seriously - once you have everyone on the hook, and the promotional pricing ends, can we trust you not to gouge us?
A: "It's a very beautiful cloud, It feels like a rainbow on your coronas, Adobe has no history of jacking up the prices for anyone"

Q: I'm begging you - how bad is it going to be in four years? Are we talking olive oil salesmen once we're all on board?
A: Hey - come on - Creative Cloud, Creative Cloud, Creative Cloud. Do I sound insincere?

Q: How bad is it going to get?

(here, suddenly, Shantanu Narayen is stricken by cosmic truth rays)

A: What?

Q: Hi, just to ask again - what is the monthly call in three years once I'm locked in?

A: Well we're not totally sure, we're working it out, we figure after a few years we can bleed you for about 75 dollars a month once we have you by the short and curlies.


Q: do we own any software?

A: You're funny - so that's about a grand a year please. On perpetual hire purchase where you always have to pay.
Don't miss a payment for any reason or we shut the software off. Also we are going to make outright purchase and upgrade increasingly difficult.

In closing my name is Shantanu Narayen, I am not insincere, and Creative Cloud, Creative CloudCreative CloudCreative Cloud Etc.


----

ech. sorry - but I doubt the motivations and future intent, much as I love the tools.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 12:57:57 am

[John Godwin] "I have a much bigger trust issue with cloud apps. As long as I have software resident on my computer I can access my work and at the minimum rescue it and get it into a form I can use elsewhere. If someone in "the cloud" decides to shut something down that's a lot more troubling to me than stopping development on a program that I can still use for months or years if necessary, because its still available."

Cloud or no cloud, almost all of our major software packages now require Internet activation. Shiny discs on a shelf do not ensure access to software years after its release.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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John Godwin
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 1:18:05 am

I didn't say years, I said time to move on, essentially. If Apple discontinued FCPX today I have it resident on my computer until I choose to delete it. Actually, same with CS6. Neither came from a disk.

If I am using Creative Cloud, though, and Adobe goes under, or I run out of money to pay my ISP, or the internet goes down for 3 days just as it's time to renew my monthly subscription and I can't access my projects, I have a big problem.

The idea of a potential monthly hard cutoff of software I use to make my living seems both terrifying and unnecessarily risky when I have very viable alternatives.

Best,
John


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Walter Soyka
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 1:47:48 am

[John Godwin] "I didn't say years, I said time to move on, essentially. If Apple discontinued FCPX today I have it resident on my computer until I choose to delete it. Actually, same with CS6. Neither came from a disk."

Fair, and I do agree with you.

I only mean to point out that a permanent license is really not as permanent as it may seem.


[John Godwin] "If I am using Creative Cloud, though, and Adobe goes under, or I run out of money to pay my ISP, or the internet goes down for 3 days just as it's time to renew my monthly subscription and I can't access my projects, I have a big problem."

I do think the grace period is longer than that, but I'm not sure.

From the Creative Cloud FAQ [link]:
Do I need ongoing Internet access to use my Creative Suite applications?
Because your Creative Suite applications are installed directly on your computer, you will not need an ongoing Internet connection to use them on a daily basis. However, you will need to be online when you install and license your software, and at least once every 30 days thereafter. The software will alert you when you need to connect to the Internet for a license status check.


That said...

[John Godwin] "The idea of a potential monthly hard cutoff of software I use to make my living seems both terrifying and unnecessarily risky when I have very viable alternatives."

My favorite model is perpetual license plus annual maintenance contract, with more expensive upgrade fees for non-maintenance customers, like Autodesk and Maxon do.

Best of both worlds -- you continue "owning" your software license (to whatever extent that matters), you have predictable upgrade expenses, and the developer gets their predictable revenue stream. You have the option of going off maintenance without losing your entire investment, and if you're willing to pay, you can get back on later.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bret Williams
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 2:04:12 pm

I think John's example could happen. You have to connect every 30 days. I have CS6 cloud installed on 3 systems. Only 2 can be active at a time. The minute you activate the third, the other two go down. Well, once they check in. Could be a day, could be a month. But when they go down, they're down. You have to enter your ID and all again. I'm sure there is a small 2 or 3 day grace, but there is the potential for the internet to go down at just the wrong time. I think I would have to get creative at that point. It wouldn't be the end of the world. For $20 I can turn on Verizon tethering on the iPad and bingo, I have faster internet than my home connection. Or I could turn on tethering on my iPhone (and lose my unlimited data plan) and activate through that. Or go get some 3G usb dongle thing from ATT and use that. I might lose a couple hours.

Now Andreas is worried about them raising the cloud price after everyone is hooked. It could happen. But that's what capitalism and freedom of choice is for. Tends to keep companies from gouging you too much. There are other options out there. Can only gouge so long.

My question is that I had the physical CS5 master collection before I got the $29/month CS6 upgrade pricing. That goes away in a few months and I'm on the $49 plan. Can I now sell my CS5 serial since my CS6 cloud will have absolutely no connection to it anymore? Would seem logical. I might have to cancel the cloud for a month just to alleviate confusion.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 25, 2013 at 10:45:35 pm

if there's one thing you can say about this forum, it is that it is pretty loud niche - pro and con.

I don't think, for instance, that Dennis Radeke thought he was going to end up being hauled over the coals for adobe educational pricing by educator representatives when he walked in. Dennis is very much, and really rather heartfelt, a dude - but this actually is a real debate forum. It's probably useful that it's loud.

As long as there is light with the heat it's not a bad idea to kick it around. ad utter infinitum.

Or at least until NAB.

At which point X may kind of expire as a notion for paid editing. God knows it's been coming.

(also feedly is the answer to reader, they are building a backend switchover they swear - I personally have well over a hundred reader feeds).

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Culbertson
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 25, 2013 at 11:35:38 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Or at least until NAB.

At which point X may kind of expire as a notion for paid editing. God knows it's been coming."


What? Is Apple re-releasing FCS3/FCP7 disks at NAB?

Not that that would stop a lot of pros from continuing to use FCPX for paid work.

I've been trying to figure out if you are at the denial stage or the bargaining stage... "CS7 will convince all these deluded FCPX users of the Right Way to edit."


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 12:04:52 am

no, I just mean X has been dead for a pretty long time now. no jobs, no postings, no announcements of use really. either end of the pond.
Someone is going to call it. It's kind of not a bad idea. it would clarify things. The software is going nowhere. macbreak weekly and ripple training and a bunch of guys on here are giving it CPR volts every day of the week but its dead as a doornail really.

No one in LA or NY is using it, no one in London is using it, no one around Oliver Peters say, as he has pointed out, is using it, literally it doesn't exist if you want a gig.
no one has posted a job for it in near two years. Seriously: How long does this charade go on?

It's basically dead, if interesting, software walking. It would genuinely be better dead at this point for industry clarity.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig Seeman
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 12:26:57 am

Like cockroaches, those using FCPX for broadcast come out in the dark when you're not looking.
They may be hard to see but I can hear their scurrying feet.
They're also hard to squash and they're multiplying in dark corners.



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Bret Williams
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 12:38:56 am

What percent of the video production market is broadcast and film anyway? I mean, it seems like it would actually be pretty small, but its all anyone here seems to care about.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 12:58:36 am

[Bret Williams] "its all anyone here seems to care about."

Ahh the market that Avid cares about. Please see their balance sheet.

Yes I'm stretching it a bit because there are companies that do well financially focusing on that market but as a sole market for NLE revenues.....



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 12:52:39 am

they just aren't craig. I mean - I get the point, but it's simply not happening.

Apple do not have a viable proposition. In the end, they didn't have one the minute they stuffed all the facilities with the announcement.
There is no road back Craig, even if the software wasn't barmy, which it half is in the timeline, there's just no road available to them at this point.

London is already shaking out to Avid and PPro. X does not exist. It largely never could have existed because Apple went off the deep end in their notion of the moves they thought they could make.

They killed the entire FCP studio across London and turned up with a pretty loony one off editing system.
Apple is largely done professionally in editing. It almost doesn't matter what they do.

X is literally just funny, interesting software. with great multicam.

No one cares Craig.
No one is ever going to house or employ it. Not after the Year Zero FCP Studio bomb site left in London.
Apple are, directly by their actions, effectively dead with respect to editing.

there really is no overstating this point.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Kenny
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 4:29:16 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "There is no road back Craig, even if the software wasn't barmy, which it half is in the timeline, there's just no road available to them at this point."

You have zero systematic data. At best you're off in your particular corner of the market, reporting what you're personally seeing with in the circles you have direct contact with — probably with a fair bit of confirmation bias, because, well, humans do that, even when they're trying not to. This is an industry where most work comes through word of mouth. And sentiment toward particular software travels through those same social networks. Consequently, the NLE decisions you're seeing in your particular circles are not independent, uncorrelated decisions that you can treat as a proxy for the wider market.

In the circles I have direct contact with — mostly indie film, some commercial/music video work, centered in NYC — I'm not seeing much FCP X either. But I'm also not seeing the market settle on Premiere and Media Composer. As a post house, we have contact with a lot of productions that make their own choices about what NLE to use. We've gotten exactly two inquiries about Premiere (neither for features), one inquiry about FCP X, and everything else is still FCP 7 and Media Composer, in the same proportions as two years ago.

So FCP X isn't exactly winning, but it hasn't lost yet either. And now that Apple and other developers in the FCP X ecosystem have had a chance to fill in key core functionality, this, I suspect, is where things start to get interesting.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Bret Williams
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 1:28:11 pm

That's what I'm seeing in ATL too. I don't know a single freelancer that has gone Premiere. Shops that had Avid and FCP still have Avid and FCP. The big corporations that make more shows a year than most networks are still on FCP 7 with only slight curiosity about what is next. Generally, the talk there revolves around FCP X, whether it be curiosity or complaining. Avid is out of the picture in most of the corporations as most of the corporate freelancers at this point have never used it. And many of them are playing with X at their home suites and on their laptops. In my work producers do a lot of the pre-cutting after a shoot, and they aren't even thinking Premiere. But they love X.

So broadcasters and hollywood don't care for it. Ok great. I still think they're a pretty small, yet visual, part of the market.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 2:37:51 pm

lets try a little test:

Go to Mandy.com - they list hundreds of edit jobs per month across the US, UK, worldwide, every single month - put in a search for Premiere - I get the weekly job listing digest so its really easy for me to do as a Gmail search, which I have just done.

Every week now for months and months Premiere Pro has been featuring as a main title rider on multiple job Applications along FCP7 and media Composer.
like this:

Premiere Pro/FCP Editor - HuttonMiller, LLC - Boca Raton
FCP/Premiere editors wanted - Elysium Productions - You can work from anywhere
Premiere Editor & Shooters - Allegory Productions - NYC
Freelance FCP7/Premiere Editor - Confidential - Orlando
FREELANCE EDITOR - Confidential, Toronto.
looking for a skilled Freelance Final Cut Pro 7 Editor who has recently made the move to Premiere Pro 6 (or is keen to do so).
FCP/Premiere Editor - Durango Effect - Los Angeles
Final Cut/Premiere Pro Editor (Italian) - The Putty Division - Brooklyn
Adobe Premiere Pro Editor - Confidential - Manhattan

thats all from the last four months or so.

Now, what I want you to do next is put in FCPX:
it currently lists one return on the whole of mandy worldwide:

Editor with LP Productions
(Los Angeles area - USA California - South), As Soon As Possible for Until project is completed.. I am a Producer/ Director and I'm looking for a FCP EDITOR (not FCPX) to cut our 19 page pilot “Shadows” and 2 trailers for our pitch.


Hilarious isn't it? i mean its almost too perfect.

So look now - seriously - you guys can try all this "I don't hear about premiere" "no one is talking about premiere" "it'll break for FCPX any day now" -but the thing to remember is no one believes a word you are saying because your statements are not based in reality.

The industry is shifting to Premiere - its been noticably accelerating for the last six months.

No one is using FCPX, no one is posting jobs for FCPX or ever has - outside of the desperately grinning guys on macbreak weekly and ripple training and... about twenty guys on this forum, FCPX is as dead as a very, very dead doornail.

I just like to occasionally come on and remind you all of that fact.

Dead. As. A. Dodo.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 4:13:54 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I just like to occasionally come on and remind you all of that fact."

Because you are a troll. And a very good one at that. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 4:20:48 pm

I take that reply as someone with their fingers in their ears going "LaLaLa can't hear you".

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 4:30:42 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I take that reply as someone with their fingers in their ears going "LaLaLa can't hear you"."

Absolutely not. I mean, I look at Mandy occasionally as well. I am thankful I'm not freelancing. All I can say is that the more I use X, the more I like it.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 4:26:10 pm

I'd just like to note (tongue firmly in cheek!) that Aindress is NOT on the company payroll! ;-)

That said, we (Adobe) are enormously proud of the progress we made and my only promise to you is that we will not rest on our laurels and will continue to strive to make our products better for you our users.

Dennis - Adobe guys


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Steve Connor
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 4:46:41 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "That said, we (Adobe) are enormously proud of the progress we made and my only promise to you is that we will not rest on our laurels and will continue to strive to make our products better for you our users."

You should be proud, Adobe have done a great job with Premiere, now tell us what's coming in CS7 :)

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 5:04:12 pm

[Steve Connor] "now tell us what's coming in CS7 :)"

I like being employed, so will defer for now. ;-)


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Steve Connor
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 5:07:44 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "I like being employed, so will defer for now. ;-)"

Worth a try!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Chris Harlan
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 8:13:52 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "[Steve Connor] "now tell us what's coming in CS7 :)"

I like being employed, so will defer for now. ;-)
"


Like we'd tell.


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James Culbertson
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 4:39:02 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Dead. As. A. Dodo."

And here I thought most editing jobs came by word of mouth. What percentage of editing jobs go through Mandy.com?

I'd be interested in knowing what the relative throughput and viewership of the various NLE forums on Creative Cow is.

In any case, it is clear from my part of reality that editors will need to know FCP legacy, FCPX, Premiere, and possibly AVID MC for the foreseeable future. There doesn't appear to be any compelling evidence for editors settling on one particular NLE at this time... if anything FCP legacy is still winning the NLE battle for the moment.


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Steve Connor
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 4:44:57 pm

To be fair, in the years before the FCPX Launch debacle there weren't exactly lots of jobs posted in London and LA for PPro Editors either and it somehow managed to survive :)

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 4:54:17 pm

[James Culbertson] "editors will need to know FCP legacy, FCPX, Premiere, and possibly AVID MC for the foreseeable future."

Absolutely correct except for the second list item that I have underlined above.
It really, really makes absolutely no sense to put the time in with that one. It's a radically different and time consuming methodology to learn, and you can't get a job with it. It's effectively dead man walking software.

Best we all ignore it and let it quietly and quickly die.
Or strangle it if that doesn't work.
Or throw it off a bridge in a weighted bag. Whatever seems best.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Culbertson
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 6:13:15 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "It really, really makes absolutely no sense to put the time in with that one."

Well, except as I mentioned earlier, I've gotten three requests for it in the last month or two (narrative short, long form doc, and corporate). Still lots of demand for FCP legacy, and no requests for Premiere or MC to date. And when I can choose the NLE to use, FCPX appears to be the most efficient editor I have access to currently (still trying to figure out exactly why it is so much faster compared to other NLEs). So, it wouldn't be financially prudent for me to follow your advice.

Funny that I am just finishing up a long form doc on Seattle's Fremont Troll (using FCP7). Coincidence? Are you normally this way on this list?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 6:22:57 pm

[James Culbertson] "Are you normally this way on this list?"

mmm. hard to say really - what are you normally like?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 7:39:54 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "James Culbertson] "Are you normally this way on this list?"

mmm. hard to say really - what are you normally like?
"


Aindreas, you are hardly ever this way on this list. Normally, you are that way. James is acting like he normally does. This is a fairly normal response from me as well. And, FYI, I have no idea whether it is at all normal for Seattle's Fremont Troll to use FCP 7 or not.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 7:41:38 pm

[Chris Harlan] "And, FYI, I have no idea whether it is at all normal for Seattle's Fremont Troll to use FCP 7 or not."

I heard he switched to CS6.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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James Culbertson
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 7:47:17 pm

[Charlie Austin] "[Chris Harlan] "And, FYI, I have no idea whether it is at all normal for Seattle's Fremont Troll to use FCP 7 or not."

I heard he switched to CS6."


My guess (cause the Troll doesn't talk much) is that he would prefer to cut on a Moviola.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 7:51:59 pm

[Charlie Austin] "[Chris Harlan] "And, FYI, I have no idea whether it is at all normal for Seattle's Fremont Troll to use FCP 7 or not."

I heard he switched to CS6.
"


Oh, c'mon man! The Fremont Troll? You know that if he wasn't on 7, he'd be all over Lightworks!

Here he is on a snack break. I believe that's a Linux programer in the foreground.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Fremont+Troll&start=213&hl=en&safe=off&clien...


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 9:38:11 pm

ok. So I looked up the fremont troll.

That thing looks **ahhmazing**

Also he is clearly holding a lightworks controller there.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Culbertson
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 9:43:57 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Also he is clearly holding a lightworks controller there."

No, no. He's clearly a bug designer.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example - lets have some reality.
on Mar 26, 2013 at 9:47:56 pm

James - it's quite obviously a lightworks controller. The discussion is at an end.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 9:42:36 pm

All the anecdotal data here are fun, but maybe they don't tell us much.

Out of curiosity, I've taken the COW's thread views from the Adobe Premiere Pro, Avid, and FCPX Techniques forums, each over a 2 week period, copied and pasted into a spreadsheet, and used my black-belt Excel-fu to get count up unique posters.

Of course this isn't a proper survey at all, self-selecting groups being what they are, but here goes:

Premiere Pro: 165 unique posters in 130 threads
FCPX: 86 unique posters in 59 threads
Avid: 73 unique posters in 58 threads

There were 2 posters active in all three forums.

There were 6 posters active in two of the forums; of these, 1 was Avid/FCPX but not Premiere, and the remaining 5 were Premiere/Avid but not FCPX. (I have removed COW News Droid posts and the Walter Biscardi NAB article that was cross-posted over Premiere/Avid and not FCPX.)

Does any of this mean anything? Discuss amongst yourselves...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Charlie Austin
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 9:46:40 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Does any of this mean anything?"

Yes. It means you have way too much spare time. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Walter Soyka
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 9:52:12 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Yes. It means you have way too much spare time. ;-)"

Like I said in another thread -- renders may be measured in minutes per frame instead of frames per second. :)

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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James Culbertson
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 9:47:24 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Premiere Pro: 165 unique posters in 130 threads
FCPX: 86 unique posters in 59 threads
Avid: 73 unique posters in 58 threads"


Well, that's it then. Premiere has won.

What about FCP legacy?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 9:55:08 pm

[James Culbertson] "Well, that's it then. Premiere has won."

that was big of you to admit James, difficult, but big of you.

and now could we please shut down the forum and set about the task of positioning premiere as the broad mainstay editing system replacement for FCP7 that we all basically need so we can all get a good night's sleep and stop trying to learn a baker's dozen editing systems to cover all the bases.

I thank you.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Culbertson
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:02:31 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "and now could we please shut down the forum and set about the task of positioning premiere as the broad mainstay editing system replacement for FCP7 that we all basically need so we can all get a good night's sleep and stop trying to learn a baker's dozen editing systems to cover all the bases."

Are you going to be the one to break the news over at the the FCPX Techniques forum? I think that would be an entertaining discussion to watch unfold.

FCPX is dead, long live FCPX!


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:37:55 pm

[James Culbertson] "Are you going to be the one to break the news over at the the FCPX Techniques forum?"

not unless I get to wear some kind of Iron Man suit.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:07:05 pm

[James Culbertson] "What about FCP legacy?"

Good question.

FCP7: 145 unique posters, 114 threads.

1 user active across all 4.

2 users active in three forums:
1 of those in Premiere/Avid/FCP7
1 of those in Premiere/Avid/FCPX.

23 users active in two forums:
5 of those in FCP7/FCPX
4 of those in Avid/FCP7
1 of those in Avid/FCPX
9 of those in Adobe/FCP7
4 of those in Adobe/Avid

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:08:31 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Does any of this mean anything?"

It's hard to know when there is no meaning.

If you are going strictly by volume, I could conclude that McDonalds is a healthy choice for lunch everyday.

If you are talking about a forum, people usually post when something is wrong, they can't figure something out, or they generally have a questions about how something works, but that doesn't cover the wide range of postings.

So, does it mean that more volume defaults to having more people post, or does that mean people are having more trouble with other software (or less trouble with certain softwares?).

I'd like to see the Excel function for that!

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:12:37 pm

Jeremy, I totally agree that there are any number of stories these numbers could fit. That's why I'm passing them on without comment.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:23:51 pm

[Walter Soyka] "That's why I'm passing them on without comment."

I know, I'm just joshing around. Your Excel Fu is quite amazing, however.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:28:33 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I know, I'm just joshing around. Your Excel Fu is quite amazing, however."

All kidding aside, I think it's an important point to emphasize. We could cram any one of many narratives into these numbers.

Also, one should never underestimate the value of a spreadsheet with loads of functions for graphics and animation automation...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:32:20 pm

[Walter Soyka] "never underestimate the value of a spreadsheet with loads of functions for graphics and animation automation..."

Walter - I have the answer.







http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:38:02 pm

[Walter Soyka] "All kidding aside, I think it's an important point to emphasize. We could cram any one of many narratives into these numbers."

The sample size should widen and collect Avid, Adobe, and Apple's dedicated support forum data for each NLE.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:47:18 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Also, one should never underestimate the value of a spreadsheet with loads of functions for graphics and animation automation..."

I'm looking forward to the columnless spreadsheet with magnetic cells of course.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:14:04 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's hard to know when there is no meaning.

If you are going strictly by volume, I could conclude that McDonalds is a healthy choice for lunch everyday.
"


garchow taking the news badly there.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Culbertson
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:22:49 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's hard to know when there is no meaning.

If you are going strictly by volume, I could conclude that McDonalds is a healthy choice for lunch everyday."


So, Premiere is like McDonalds. And FCPX and AVID are less buggy then Premiere and FCP Legacy... got it.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:37:54 pm

[James Culbertson] "So, Premiere is like McDonalds. And FCPX and AVID are less buggy then Premiere and FCP Legacy... got it."

Or.

So many people are using Premiere that it is winning on sheer numbers, and therefore by default, there are more people posting.

Perhaps as a percentage of problem posts, they are the lowest.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:42:04 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So many people are using Premiere that it is winning on sheer numbers, and therefore by default, there are more people posting."

exactly. lets all just settle on Premiere and go out for a nice steak dinner to celebrate.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Culbertson
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 12:40:00 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "It's basically dead, if interesting, software walking. It would genuinely be better dead at this point for industry clarity."

There are a lot of folks using it who are staying below the radar due to all the FUD thrown up by detractors.

Beyond FCP7, I'm starting to get requests for FCPX here in Seattle area (narrative short, doc, and corporate so far). No requests yet for Premiere (or MC). I do hear it is being used more extensively at Microsoft Studios. But I have not heard of many using Premiere around here otherwise. I'm figuring I will have to learn Premiere at some point, but I am not drawn to it like I am FCPX and the comfort of FCP7.


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Michael Phillips
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 1:36:12 am

Not that Avid hasn't been in other prosumer/consumer parts of the editing market over the past 15 years or so, starting with Diva, eCinema, Media Suite Pro, Pinnacle, etc. Apparently none of these generated enough revenue to continue as a product line on its own. Also the value of AVID as a brand leveraging the studio/Hollywood success never resonated in those other markets. So I wouldn't say that AVID only cares about the "high end" however that is defined today, but certainly needs to keep that market as other solutions and offering from AVID should appeal to them as well beyond just an editing seat.

Perhaps this proves that a software only solution in the prosumer space is a difficult one without the additional halo effect of hardware, OS, and related revenue. I don't know if it would ever happen, but I would not be surprised to see Apple requiring third party plug-ins for FCPX be only available as an in-app purchase via app store - getting a percentage from that as well. Part of the Apple ecosystem experience.


Michael


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Benjamin Mullins
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 1:51:50 pm

I'm based in London too and have switched from Legacy to PPro. I can't speak for the rest of London but the other editors I do know have either stayed with Legacy or moved to PPro as well (with 1 moving to MC). None have taken up X. This is all for corporate work with the exception of the chap who went with MC (makes the most sense for broadcast at the moment I think). Again this is just my experience and I'm sure there are others who can say different. Just what does it all mean?!



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Shawn Miller
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 7:02:37 pm

[James Culbertson] "No requests yet for Premiere (or MC). I do hear it is being used more extensively at Microsoft Studios. But I have not heard of many using Premiere around here otherwise. I'm figuring I will have to learn Premiere at some point, but I am not drawn to it like I am FCPX and the comfort of FCP7."

Really? I've been doing corporate work in the area for over a decade, and Premiere has always been been pretty poplar here, mostly because of the Creative Suite. MS Studios had been a strong Avid/FCP7 house for a long time, but I understand they've switched over to Avid exclusively with the EOL of FCP7... same with Amazon and Victory Studios. Even the smaller agencies and freelancers I know are switching to Avid or PPro... I don't anyone using FCPX at the moment. Not saying that no one is... I just haven't seen it.

Shawn



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James Culbertson
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 7:31:25 pm

[Shawn Miller] "I don't anyone using FCPX at the moment."

Well, now you know one at least. There are quite a few of us using it. Most folks I know who use it don't talk much about it because of all the past judgement around it.

I guess I run in different circles but most editors in the Seattle area I know are still using FCP legacy (and some AVID MC). But we are all kicking the tires on other NLEs. I'm also testing Premiere even though I prefer FCP legacy and FCPX.

My understanding from talking to a couple of freelancers who work at Microsoft Studios is that they have already or are in the process of switching to Premiere. Just talked to one colleague who worked over there a week or so ago who said he had used Premiere on a project (his first Premiere gig ever). I don't know how to reconcile that with your perspective...


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Shawn Miller
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 8:14:03 pm

[James Culbertson] "Well, now you know one at least. There are quite a few of us using it. Most folks I know who use it don't talk much about it because of all the past judgement around it."

I guess it is all in who you know. :-)

[James Culbertson] "My understanding from talking to a couple of freelancers who work at Microsoft Studios is that they have already or are in the process of switching to Premiere. Just talked to one colleague who worked over there a week or so ago who said he had used Premiere on a project (his first Premiere gig ever). I don't know how to reconcile that with your perspective..."

Maybe it's just timing? I was there in September and one of the Producers was telling us that they were replacing FCP7 with Avid. Maybe they changed course... not unusual for MS. I'm actually surprised that they're going with PPro, since they were all Avid before FCP and they're such a strong Pro Tools shop... unless that's changes too. :-)

Shawn



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Neil Goodman
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 8:30:21 pm

FWIW, people only mention it here when cracking a joke. Ive tried to play devils advocate and elude them to some of the good features - multi cam,skimmer... but people look at me funny. Truth be told there aren't alot of FCP legacy fans either but everyone was hoping FCP 8 would be the one to get them off of Avid. Even a wedding videographer i sued to work with in college wont touch it. So Aindreas isnt completely mad, and while i think its still too early to mke that sort of call, it definitely isnt gaining any traction out here even 2 years later.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Chris Harlan
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 8:45:19 pm

[Neil Goodman] " Even a wedding videographer i sued to work with in college wont touch it."

My brain did take a few brief steps tangoing with the notion of suing someone to work with them before I realized that auto correct had struck again.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 9:14:56 pm

[Neil Goodman] "...Aindreas isnt completely mad, and while i think its still too early to mke that sort of call, it definitely isnt gaining any traction out here even 2 years later."


Leaving aside the fact that it's "different", which is a big deal in itself for folks who have deadlines - I think X is suffering from the effects of, for lack of a better term, editorial elitism. At least here in LA. When you say "Truth be told there aren't alot of FCP legacy fans either but everyone was hoping FCP 8 would be the one to get them off of Avid"... that's what I'm talking about. X is making inroads, but it's on the edges of the "high end" post world. Davidson is using it quite effectively for his promo biz, but on some level that's seen as "lesser than" say, theatrical trailers etc.

Really, it wasn't until the "cold mountain" moment that people in LA took Legacy seriously. This despite the fact that I and others had been finishing theatrical trailers and TV spots with it for at least 2-3 years previous to that.

I think the same thing is playing out with X. It's complicated by the fact that there is a bit steeper learning curve to X due to the magnetic timeline. And Apple knew that folks in LA and NY wouldn't adopt it right away. But I'll tell ya, once you get dialed in to X, it is really a pleasure to work with. Yeah, yeah, it needs work in many ways, but I've gone from trying make it work like the timelines I'm "used to", to using the primary, audio components, and all the other new features available. It's fun, that sounds ridiculous, but it is. I still cut at work in 7 as well, and have been polishing my rusty MC and new Pr chops on my own time, but X is what I prefer.

I'm gonna start posting things here in my Cow profile that I've cut in X and finished. Just for laughs. Mostly just TV spots for now... sadly the Elysium trailer we just did came out of an FCP 7 suite, but eventually I'll finish something that will appeal to the LA elite. (which I suppose I'm a part of, but F all that...) ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 26, 2013 at 10:54:44 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I'm gonna start posting things here in my Cow profile that I've cut in X and finished. Just for laughs. "

You are a braver man than I. I would never put my clients up here.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 27, 2013 at 12:05:40 am

[Chris Harlan] "You are a braver man than I. I would never put my clients up here.
"


Meh... it's all stuff that's done and out there, no different than a reel on a website. Not posting anything that isn't already out in the wild. *That* would be suicidal. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 27, 2013 at 12:26:37 am

[Charlie Austin] "[Chris Harlan] "You are a braver man than I. I would never put my clients up here.
"

Meh... it's all stuff that's done and out there, no different than a reel on a website. Not posting anything that isn't already out in the wild. *That* would be suicidal. ;-)

------------"


I don't know. It always ends up bitting me somehow, so I almost never do it. I was fondly reminiscing the other day about work I did in the middle of the last decade, and I suddenly find myself in water where someone wants to argue about one of my current clients as if they are the evil empire. I don't post my reel here, either. Tempers can run high, and some line crossing does go on; I've seem members of this very forum try to discredit individuals with their employers because of their positions on FCP X. Sad, huh?


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Charlie Austin
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 27, 2013 at 12:57:51 am

[Chris Harlan] "I don't know. It always ends up bitting me somehow, so I almost never do it. I was fondly reminiscing the other day about work I did in the middle of the last decade, and I suddenly find myself in water where someone wants to argue about one of my current clients as if they are the evil empire. I don't post my reel here, either. Tempers can run high, and some line crossing does go on; I've seem members of this very forum try to discredit individuals with their employers because of their positions on FCP X. Sad, huh?"

I hear ya. As i said, this stuff is all on the web already, and is well past it's air date. Nothing amazing or anything, just things cut in X that lots of people have seen. Not like it's some big secret who the clients are either, we all work for the same people right? ;-) And anyone who wants to discredit me with my employer because of my position on X is too late. They already think I'm crazy. :-) Though that's changing.

Watching their reactions as I make revisions and pop in and out of full screen without stopping playback is priceless. And that's just basic modern NLE tricks. Now that i've gotten more dialed in with X muscle memory and KB shortcuts I hear "wait, what just happened?!, how'd you do that?" regularly. lol Throwing together temp titles and transitions that look as good or better than what we make in AE, making slates and other reusable GFX into generators in Motion, exporting multiple spots with multiple presets while continuing to cut etc., is fun too. As long as I can get stuff out to finish, nobody cares. If multiple people are on the same job I'll still cut in creaky old Classic for now. Eventually I'll get the Luddites up to speed.

Or... we'll switch to Pr or MC and plod along like we have for the last 20 years, and I'll continue to use X when i can because I like it. I'm feeling that's less and less likely though, no matter what the trolls believe. Either way it's gonna take some re-learning for half the folks here at work who've never cut on anything but FCP Classic. Oh well...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 27, 2013 at 1:09:46 am

[Charlie Austin] "And anyone who wants to discredit me with my employer because of my position on X is too late. They already think I'm crazy. :-) Though that's changing. "

LOL. Actually, in both cases it was hyper X enthusiasts who were beating on folks that didn't quite have the presence of mind to see it Apple's way.

[Charlie Austin] "hrowing together temp titles and transitions that look as good or better than what we make in AE, making slates and other reusable GFX into generators in Motion, exporting multiple spots with multiple presets while continuing to cut etc., is fun too"

Hey, I love Motion! It'd be great if they could ever get it round-tripping again.

[Charlie Austin] "Either way it's gonna take some re-learning for half the folks here at work who've never cut on anything but FCP Classic. Oh well..."

That's for sure.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 27, 2013 at 2:15:51 am

[Chris Harlan] "LOL. Actually, in both cases it was hyper X enthusiasts who were beating on folks that didn't quite have the presence of mind to see it Apple's way.

Funny.. I'm against hyper-anything enthusiasts. :-)

[Chris Harlan] "Hey, I love Motion! It'd be great if they could ever get it round-tripping again."

Yeah... i really wish I knew it better, I just bumble around in there. But even just doing that I can do some cool stuff. Practice practice... :-)

[Chris Harlan] [Charlie Austin] "Either way it's gonna take some re-learning for half the folks here at work who've never cut on anything but FCP Classic. Oh well..."

That's for sure."


I think the relearning thing is what frightens people most about X. Yes, there are some post workflow issues that need addressing/improvement and features that need implementation and improvement and/or require workarounds. No question. But the biggie I think is that Classic and MC and Pr etc all kinda work like one another. They look the same: Source-Record-Tracks. They all handle things quite differently, but they work sort of the same. X works like other NLE's too, but it looks and acts very different. Weird. Scaarryyy... ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 27, 2013 at 2:42:09 am

[Charlie Austin] "But the biggie I think is that Classic and MC and Pr etc all kinda work like one another. They look the same: Source-Record-Tracks. They all handle things quite differently, but they work sort of the same. X works like other NLE's too, but it looks and acts very different. Weird. Scaarryyy... "

I'd agree with you as far as Premiere goes, but you really do have to do a lot of rethinking to use MC, unless you used FCP in an Avid like fashion, which is not, imho, even close to the best way to use FCP 7. Yes, they look more alike, but they really function quite differently. For instance, if you spend a lot of time expecting Filler to act like FCP's black (and, I don't mean slug), you will go insane. I don't think the bar is particularly higher going from FCP to X, then it is to MC. I would say both equally intimidate.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 27, 2013 at 3:13:57 am

[Chris Harlan] "Yes, they look more alike, but they really function quite differently. For instance, if you spend a lot of time expecting Filler to act like FCP's black (and, I don't mean slug), you will go insane."

I guess that's what i meant...Pr is the closest to Classic, but it's not the same. At all really. The timeline behaves in a similar fashion, but, even if you use the FCP KB they put in there, it's a different beast. As far as MC, i totally agree. It's a whole other kettle of fish. ;-) I've said before that I feel like the X timeline behaves more like MC than Classic, though you can just cut everything into X as connected clips, which I started out doing. But really, that's kind of like your analogy of trying to use Classic in an Avid like way. You miss out on the best stuff I think. No matter which way you go, it's a tough road for folks who learned to cut on classic and haven't really got any other NLE experience. I understand why they're upset...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 27, 2013 at 5:50:27 am

[Chris Harlan] "LOL. Actually, in both cases it was hyper X enthusiasts who were beating on folks that didn't quite have the presence of mind to see it Apple's way. "

HEY! I resemble that remark!!

: )

Course I don't see anyone here with permanent bruises, so obviously I'm not THAT mean.

And for the record Chris, I looked carefully back when you started posting your photo and I don't see a single bruise or scar. (Herb has the beard, so that's clearly less evidentiary) - but I"m still probably not buying the idea anyone's been actually wounded hereabouts.

As to the subject at hand, I'm wondering what's going to happen if what I see as the unstoppable next horizon wave in video ever gets real - that being a modification of RAW workflow for us video folk.

I can't even imagine what we'll be able to do if our video streams suddenly get a whole bunch more stops of latitude and run on boxes that can let us take advantage of the kind of RAW streams the RED Folk enjoy - but at far lower cost.

I suspect that will have the potential to change the "look" of the entire motion content industry pretty rapidly.

I decided to go to NAB early next Saturday, largely just to sit in on the BlackMagic Cinema Camera session for that very reason.

Change is constant.

Change continues....

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 27, 2013 at 1:02:07 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I'm feeling that's less and less likely though, no matter what the trolls believe."

hey Charlie - you know what they say - you're never a troll once you remember to put a smiley face at the end of every sentence. :)

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: Software and Trust: The Google Example
on Mar 27, 2013 at 3:44:27 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "hey Charlie - you know what they say - you're never a troll once you remember to put a smiley face at the end of every sentence. :)"

:-D lol

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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