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So who is the best candidate?

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Adam Claude Jones
So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:03:44 pm

Ok, the writing is on the wall and its pretty clear apple wants to sell iphones and not pro apps. Yeah, its coming in the future yadda, yadda, yadda. But I need it now. So who is the best candidate to replace FCP?

MC 5.5, Premiere or Media 100?

Media 100 is Mac only and although I would really love to leave the Mac platform I don't think I can because now that Color is no more the only other affordable color correction tools is Resolve for the Mac. Bugger!

So I guess I must stay on the Mac, unfortunately. So I might as well consider Media 100.
So between the 3 what do you guys advice for narrative type of projects, features films and documentaries?
Needs are:

*Needs to be able to edit DPX, XDCAM, DSLR.
*Work with Resolve
*Footage will need to be sent for compositing in either Nuke or Fusion. Rarely After Effects.
*If it matters, applications such as Maya, 3DS Max and Lightwave are often used in such projects.

Any opinions?


Thanks.


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Tom Daigon
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:07:15 pm

The easiest transition (familiar GUI),and the most high tech (64bit) choice at this moment in time is Adobe CS 5.5 Premiere Pro. It is what FCP X should have been.Adobe is serious about professional use (ie After Effects, Photoshop, etc).

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Jamie Franklin
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:09:39 pm

[Tom Daigon] "the most high tech (64bit) choice at this moment in time is Adobe CS 5.5 Premiere Pro"

x2


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Sohrab Sandhu
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:54:20 pm

Tom

Does PPro work with color at all? I have really worked hard to learn color and absolutley love working with it.


Sohrab

2.66 GHz 8-core, ATI Radeon HD 4870,
FCS 3, AJA Kona Lhi



"The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth-century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six months, or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen." -- Carl Ally


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Tom Daigon
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 2:06:13 am

Sohrab, I honestly dont know. But Im sure a little Googling the next few days might reveal an answer to your question.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 9:02:08 pm

Please let me weigh in here for a minute - After Effects CS5 comes with a plugin called Color Finesse. It's a full-featured color grading solution which some say rivals Apple's Color. Check out this overview on the Cow:

http://library.creativecow.net/articles/harrington_richard/after-effects-cs...

While I've never used Color, I have used Color Finesse, and I find it up to the job on any color correction I've needed to do. Good luck with your decisions, and one thing I do know is that Adobe listens to its' users.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 9:27:13 pm

Thanks for the suggestion. I actually know Color Finesse and one of the things that I always missed in it was power windows. I absolutely need power windows. Unless they have just added that but as I remember it never had it.
Also, does it even have color keys and tracking?

I will check the link you suggested too.


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Marcus Umstead
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:14:40 pm

Wow, I used Media100 back in 1995 or so... I didn't know it still existed. I have to say that I LOVE Adobe CS5, and I've considered 5.5 just to get Audition instead of SoundBooth.


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Steve Connor
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:21:32 pm

Can you get from PPro to resolve though?

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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Peter Corbett
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:34:00 pm

[Steve Connor] "Can you get from PPro to resolve though?

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television"


I asked this exact question at NAB, and the somewhat ambiguous answer was "not as well as FCP integration". But this may change with what's been happening.

Peter Corbett
Powerhouse Productions
http://www.php.com.au


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:37:35 pm

[Steve Connor] "Can you get from PPro to resolve though?

Exactly! This is very important for me.


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Andrew Wilson
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:23:21 pm

I think the best replacement for FCP-X is FCP 7. I'll be staying put - making money on my current machine for the foreseeable future. I haven't seen any features in X that are so compelling as to switch to anything else right now.

I was a Media Composer editor for many years and like the industry standard of AVID. I've played with Premiere 5.5 and think the metadata handling is pretty cool (especially the sound to text transcription)

If I had a crystal ball, I would say that Production Premium is going to take the place of Final Cut Studio as the go to application suite for a well-rounded solution. Look at what Adobe did to Quark when Quark pissed off its customers by not delivering an OS-X native application in an acceptable amount of time.

Andrew Wilson
WestView Digital Video & Design
http://www.westviewdigital.com


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:36:10 pm

Honestly Im not an adobe fan at all and hate premiere. But haven|t used it since cs1. But adobe would rank last on my list. Always screamed prosumer to me. Like I said I need no integration with After effects so that is a useless feature for me and probably wouldn't but the suite but just premiere, so consider that too. Also please consider the needs I mentioned when asnwering rather than just answering what you would do, please. Specially DPX, it is a big deal in this decision.


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Craig Wall
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:04:53 pm

I was a big Premiere user in the early days and then switched to FCP. The latest versions of Premiere are much better...and I switched back this past year.

It is flat ignorant to say PP "screams prosumer." There is a new elephant in the room shouting prosumer and we all know what that app is: iMovie Pro...er FCPX.

Meanwhile FCP7 is becoming very dated technology. It doesn't even properly tap multiple core or GPUs.

We all tend to hold onto the old and familiar. But I don't see why invest in additional seats of a dated tool like FCP7? A transition will never be easy, but when the writing is on the wall, in bold red spray paint...why wait?

Premiere has well over 1 million users...and it plays very well with others, considering its deep interoperability. Premiere is not vulnerable to a recession or market vagaries.

As for the reputation or cachet of using a particular tool? Word will quickly spread that Apple has decided to swim in shallower waters.

Life is full of funny particles.


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:18:25 pm

Who's talking about buying more FCP 7 seats?
I'm talking about leaving FCP and need to know what is the best option for my needs which I stated.
Can Premiere work with DPX sequences?
How does it work with Resolve?
Can it integrate well with professional industry standard tools like ProTools, nuke, Fusion, Maya, 3DS Max or just with stuff from the adobe suite?
Things like these are what dictates professional from prosumer. Not my opinion. If it can it can if it can't then it can't.


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Tom Daigon
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:23:27 pm

Adam - "Can Premiere work with DPX sequences?"

Adobe - "DPX file import and export
Work with DPX frame sequences that include embedded timecode as footage in Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5. Full control over parameters like black point, bit depth, and log/linear space allows nondestructive changes to be made at any time."


This was my Google search to get you started. Try it...you'll like it since no one here seems to be addressing your questions to your satisfaction ;-)

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Kevin Monahan
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 12:13:49 am

Try Premiere Pro CS5.5. We've dramatically improved the application since CS2. Most notably is 64bit architecture and the Mercury Playback Engine.

Ask questions here: http://forums.adobe.com/community/premiere/premierepro_current
Get started here: http://blogs.adobe.com/kevinmonahan/2011/05/20/getting-started-with-adobe-p...

Make suggestions for the things that don't float your boat: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 12:31:11 am

For me the most important is the integration with other professional tools. The integration with Adobe stuff doesn't really matter to me. I wont use After Affects for example when there is Nuke and Fusion. I will not color grade using After Effects or Premiere but will use Da Vinci. So how does Premiere work with Da Vinci, Nuke, Fusion, Maya, 3DS Max, Lightwave, ProTools etc?
Premiere alone doesn't matter. I need to know if it can do what i need and if i can use it with the other tools I need.


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Kevin Monahan
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 3:32:38 pm

Premiere Pro imports and exports XML, AAF and OMF. Let me know if you have any trouble with any of these in your chosen application. As far as specifics go, I have not tested integration with these other apps but will look into it if you like. I do know that RED users overwhelmingly prefer Premiere Pro.

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 9:46:03 pm

I thought RED users preferred FCP as even RED themselves seemed to have some relationship with Apple and FCP was the first to support them. But maybe this changed.
What I'm wondering is what will be of the Baselight plug-in for FCP now. Probably DOA.


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Tom Daigon
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 11:35:36 pm

Actually I was in contact with the British folks that make Baselight and it sounds like they are reevaluating their expectation of sales for FCP X and considering developing for NLEs that pros are gravitating toward.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 9:54:13 pm

Oh yes, and anything you can add about the integration with these other apps please feel free to do so. So if you have the time to look into it it would be great! Thanks.


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Daniel Frome
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:00:41 pm

I own both CS 5.5 and Media Composer 5.5.

This year alone (before this FCPX issue) I considered both of them my favorite, but for different reasons.

If you do a lot of smaller projects (commercials, generally anything under 20 minutes) then Premiere Pro is probably your best bet -- because those projects tend to be short turn-around and heavier on graphics. As a sandbox editor (something you just mess/playing around in) it's more fun than AVID. However...

I know that a previous poster said they liked Adobe for their metadata -- but I'm sorry to disagree and share that I actually ended up preferred AVID for metadata-sake.

And even more funny... AVID's biggest 'feature' that wins over myself and my clients is the AVID timecode generator: able to show filenames of video and audio clips on screen and a whack load of other features beyond just showing timecode. This feature has always carried some nerdy humor for me because AVID invended this generator what..like 10 years ago? I bet not even AVID knows the money they've made from that small feature... gets'em every time...


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:19:05 pm

Can both do the stuff I mentioned?


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Daniel Frome
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:25:50 pm

"Needs to be able to edit DPX, XDCAM, DSLR."
Both Can do that.

"*Work with Resolve"
I haven't heard of Ppro successully doing this.. so I'm not sure. Resolve is supposed to support AAF... while AVID's AAF export seems solid, I haven't had a single successful AAF export from Premiere myself.

"*Footage will need to be sent for compositing in either Nuke or Fusion. Rarely After Effects."
AVID will be an advantage here, since you could get your artists to encode straight into DNxHD format. Premiere doesn't have it's own "format" ... which can somewhat be annoying when picking a format to render to and not wanting to say "uncompressed". The DNxHD codecs are a free download for all users, whether they own avid products are not, mac or windows -- it's all the same. Of course... you could always import those DNxHD files into Premiere ... but you wouldn't get the same real-time performance that way.

"If it matters, applications such as Maya, 3DS Max and Lightwave are often used in such projects."
Same advice applies here as above.


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:31:05 pm

So it's looking like Avid may be the ticket. It works natively with DPX? This is a big plus since FCP needed Gluetools.
Any ideas about Cineform?


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Daniel Frome
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:34:26 pm

Cineform is a great codec, basically a good substitute for DNxHD for AVID and ProRes for FCP. I don't have too much experience with it, though.

An annoying factor is that an out-of-house artist may not have the codec...and then you're stuck re-encoding their work.

In my opinion I would rather leave third-party codecs out of the equation when possible.


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:57:13 pm

Thanks. But what I meant is if MC 5.5 will work with cineform material?


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Daniel Frome
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 2:40:02 am

I can only guess, but I would say "yes" because, so long as it is a quicktime codec, the Avid AMA plugin should be able to read it.


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Daniel Frome
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:37:32 pm

Oh... I just wanted to add a polite warning though: download the MC 5.5 trial and dive head-first into the tutorials. Media Composer is NOT your average editor and I trust you will break your keyboard a few times before welcoming your new toy.


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:58:19 pm

Yeah, although I have never worked with avid I heard it has a really steep learning curve.


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Tom Daigon
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 2:08:25 am

I worked with MC for 6 years and Avid DS for 12 years. I swore after experiencing FCP that it would be a cold day in hell before I ever went back to Avid. Your experience may differ from mine.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Jim Giberti
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:20:30 pm

<>

Adam, I don't read the writing on the wall the same way as some people have.
I'd give it a little time to see how this really looks in a few months.
Right now, running 7 and X concurrently is nice.

FWIW I literally used a couple of old $30k Media 100 systems as doorstops when we were moving into our new facilities,


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:28:47 pm

Problem is I don't have a little time or a few months. I need a new system now.

You can still buy new Media100's by the way and I'm hearing good things about it too.


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Neil Goodman
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:34:12 pm

i think its funny how many dismissed Ppro as a "consumer" tool just last week, are now seriuosly considering it for there buisness and production house. In my opinion the obvious choice for switching is Avid. I dont know about the rest of the world, but Avid is still the standard here in Los Angeles. I see way more Avid rigs than FCP ones in the broadcast/Film world although we all know FCP has been able to do the job for a while now.


With that said, we all know Avid isnt going anywhere and will jsut be getting better with time. Im gonna be sticking with FCP 7 until all the dust settles and get some real clarity on the situation.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:55:17 pm

To be honest I only threw premiere in for completeness but it's my least favorite. Avid is on the top of my list but I need to make sure it works with my workflow.
Yep, avid isn't going anywhere and now that apple seems to have dropped the ball and premiere was never a real competitor avid is probably going up again with it's prices and start to slack again. :D


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Tom Daigon
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 2:10:16 am

Avid has been on the edge of financial disaster for the last 7 years. Dont assume to much about them. Nothing is forever.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Daniel Frome
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 2:51:19 am

It's pretty hillarious when you look at AVID's stock:
http://www.google.ca/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:AVID

It was soaring on the release of Media Composer 5, and then tanked when Apple demo'd FCPX. Now it is climbing sharply again since the FCPX release.


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Craig Wall
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 12:04:29 am

Premiere's interoperability for me is one of it's greatest strengths. But then I use Maxon's c4d and Vue for 3d and After Effects for compositing. Maxon and Adobe have got it going on for together. C4d and After Effects work together magically. I grade with 3rd party plugin tools that work both in Premiere and AE.

Interoperability with Photoshop and Illustrator are also huge factors. Roundtrip!

I also do Flash work, so obviously it's nice to have the full Adobe ecosystem. I have the complete CS5.5 Master Suite. Audio round trips via Soundbooth.

I recognize the OP has a different set of apps and specs to marry up with. Perhaps I should have withheld my thoughts.

Life is full of funny particles.


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 12:26:25 am

Yeah, I know of that. This is the thing about premiere and adobe. It seems to work very well with the mid-level stuff but not really with the higher-end stuff. Instead of After Effects (which isn't really a compositing tool), Cinema 4D and plug-ins for color correction with AE I need Nuke/Fusion, Maya/3DS Max/Lightwave and Da Vinci.

I think this may be where premiere gets it's prosumer rep.

Like I said I have no interest in After Effects or any of the adobe products so premiere's integration with them is the least of my worries and very low on my list of priorities.


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Ivan Radovanovic
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 2:28:29 am

Usually I don't participate in discussions here but it is amazing how how simple questions about Premiere can go into long thread W/O answer (not only on this forum).
I'm not PP editor primarily.

First I'm not sure how you define After Effects, Cinema 4D as a mid-level stuff. After Effects is a industry standard for motion graphics. No, it is not compositing "one shoot based" tool, but again you can do much more serious compositing in AE than you can do motion graphics in Nuke / Fusion :) Cinema 4D is currently the most used 3D application for motion graphics and together with Body Paint very much used for feature films.

Now back to the subject.
- Yes, you can edit DPX, XDCAM, DSLR (and many more formats, RED, etc.) without transcoding. Performance will depend from your system
- Yes you can export CMX3600 that will work with Resolve (also with Speedgrade and others). Friend of my have just finished grading of the feature film that way (shoot with RED)
- For VFX guys (Nuke / Fusion) you will probably always export DPX sequence, and yes PP can do that.


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Gary Huff
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 6:05:54 am

I just checked out my Premiere CS5.5 export options and AAF is definitely one of them.

Wait...no "Import iMovie Project"...guess you can't have everything.


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 1:53:47 pm

Sorry Ivan. I didn't mean anything bad by it. Not trying to put it down. It's just that you don't really hear of C4D or AE being used for example in Hollywood features apart from the exotic situation where the guy is a AE fan and use it for a shot, not because it was the best tool for the job since Nuke and Fusion run miles around AE for film compositing, but because he could. Same thing with C4D.
In the higher end compositing is normally done on Nuke, Fusion or Autodesk with Shake still being quite used as well.
3D is normally Maya and Lightwave with Max being bigger in the game industry than in the film industry.

AE will be used for motion graphics and so will C4D and only be used for the rest by the mid level and down. Not saying a Hollywood feature has not used AE for some shot like I said or even C4D. But they are usually not the tools of choice in that level. Many times not even for motion graphics.

Of course Nuke and Fusion suck at motion graphics. They are not made for that. They are specialist tools and do not try to gather to the one man band type of market that AE does. But I have to disagree with you when you say you can do much more serious compositing in AE than you can do motion graphics in Nuke / Fusion. I can't see myself doing serious compositing at all in AE unless I absolutely had to.
For me serious compositing would mean a something like this: http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4950&d=1195469194 ,which I would probably shoot myself in the head if I had to do in AE.

Now for your occasional green screen interview and 2.5D presentations, sure.


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Ivan Radovanovic
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 3:12:33 pm

Adam , I was saying the same - you can not compare AE and Nuke. AE is industry standard in motion graphics as Nuke is industry standard in VFX, so you can not define it as "mid-level" product.
Completely different tools, so we agree on that.
With 3D situation is even more complex and I don't think you can find one movie when only one package is used. I don't even want to start about proprietary tools behind Maya UI (for example). Anyway, this has nothing to do with this topic.
Bottom line is:
- If you want to edit native you go with Premiere (AMA is not quite there)
- If you don't mind transcoding and you want best media management, you'll choose Avid
- if you want multiple editors working and sharing the same project, again Avid
- if AE, PS, AI are important part of your workflow - Premiere
- for VFX (Nuke), you are always sending DPX or TIFF files (uncompressed file sequence), both can do that

Finishing / CC is a bit longer story (probably too long for this post), but you can send EDL / AAF from both applications. Question is what formats finishing/CC application supports.
At the end of a day both applications will get you there


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 10:10:49 pm

Hi Ivan!
You're absolutely right. It's much more productive to focus on the topic in question. :)

- If you want to edit native you go with Premiere (AMA is not quite there)

By AMA did you mean AMC (Avid Media Composer)? If so can't avid edit DPX natively? Or you have to convert to DNxHD? What about XDCAM, DSLR, TIFFs and maybe even Open EXR? What about Cineform and RED?


- If you don't mind transcoding and you want best media management, you'll choose Avid


Given that I work mainly with long form and narrative media management is a MUST. So Premiere's media management still sucks at CS5?
How much transcoding are we talking about in Avid?

- if you want multiple editors working and sharing the same project, again Avid

This is sometimes required. But not all the time. But it's definitely a plus.

- if AE, PS, AI are important part of your workflow - Premiere


Not at all. I do not have and have no intention of buying or using any of that. With the exception of Photoshop but when I need I have a guy who works on it for me. But I guess any program these days can work with PSD layers.
Nuke and Fusion can so the chances that I would have to directly work with them is low. They would come to me inside a compositing and already in DPX or TIFFs.

- for VFX (Nuke), you are always sending DPX or TIFF files (uncompressed file sequence), both can do that

Great!



Finishing / CC is a bit longer story (probably too long for this post), but you can send EDL / AAF from both applications. Question is what formats finishing/CC application supports.
At the end of a day both applications will get you there


No,no. Not too long at all for this thread. ;)
A very important consideration.
So please do elaborate if you can.

Thanks!


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Ivan Radovanovic
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 12:50:01 pm

Hi Adam,

- No, AMA is Avid Media Access. You can read more about it here: http://www.avid.com/US/products/Avid-Media-Access
But as I said previously AMA still doesn't work so good as native editing in Premiere
- Premiere media management is not that bad, but nothing beats Avid. People often say that Avid is database with NLE capabilities :)
- In Avid you still have to transcode for optimal workflow. Transcode everything, and is sometimes time consuming (honestly I don't believe that is the right path for file based workflows, and that will probably change with 64bit MC6). Basically that works this way: You use AMA to get your native clips into bins and than transcode selection within MC. It would be best for you to download MC trial and do some tests: http://forms.avid.com/forms/mctrial
In Premiere I have tried Red, HDSLR h264, AVCHD, AVC INTRA, File sequence, everything works.
- Finishing ..... Definitely that won't be easy as "send to Color" (although even for that one you should take care how you prepare your sequence).
First you have to check what formats your CC suite supports (Resolve for example).
Basically it comes down to this:
A) If Resolve supports your native format:
- In Premiere edit native, export EDL, import into Resolve and connect to original files
- In Avid, AMA to original files, transcode selection, edit, reconnect to original files, export EDL, conform in Resolve
B) If Resolve doesn't support your native format:
- In Premiere edit native, render out (Uncompressed, what ever), export EDL, import baked clip into Resolve, create cut list from EDL
- In Avid, AMA to original files, transcode selection to higher quality DNxHD MXFs, export EDL, buy Avid MFX option for Resolve, conform.
* Note that everything I wrote above is a bit simplified, but that's how it goes.
* In any case you'll be working with 15-20 minutes reels. But I suppose that you already know that.
* If you can afford/rent Avid DS, I would always consider finishing Avid projects in DS (even with not so great CC tools).


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 11:41:12 pm

Thanks Ivan.

So in Avid you need to transcode everything? Even XDCAM EX and Canon 5D?
And how is the DPX workflow in Avid? I didn't find much online.
Let's say I have a DPX sequence that must be edited, then sent to compositing in Nuke and then sent back to Avid for finishing editing and then sent to Resolve for grade and in this DPX project I have a few shots in XDCAM EX and Canon 5D. How would that go? This would be a normal project for me.


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Ivan Radovanovic
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 26, 2011 at 12:21:14 am

Let say there won't be any offline-online workflow here, just to make things easier.
You can access XDCAM and Canon H264 files via AMA. In other words you can import them into Avid bins and work with them, but that won't run so good (especially H264). So after import you should make selection (clips, subclips, what ever) and transcode to Avid DNxHD MFX.
For DPX you will use Avid Metafuze. Free Avid application that runs on Win & Linux (no OS X). Metafuze will convert DPX sequences to AVID MXFs and keep the metadata




Edit with mxf files.
Export tiff sequence for Nuke
Bring back VFX sequence into Avid
Lock your edit
From here you have some different paths to CC suite:
A) Export EDL, purchase $500 MXF option for BM Davinci Resolve and conform Avid MFX files in Resolve
B) Export EDL, "bake" export your sequence, create cut list with EDL in Resolve
C) Reconnect original media ....
Again, I'm oversimplifying explanation here but I hope you'll get the picture how it works.

In Premiere you would import XDCAM, H264 and DPX original files and edit right away.

You can download trials for the both applications (you don't have to purchase via App Store just to try it out :) ) and test some workflows yourself.


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 26, 2011 at 11:22:29 am

Thanks for the detailed explanation Ivan. Very kind of you.
I still have a couple of questions about it bellow and would appreciate your help with them. Thanks in advance.


You can access XDCAM and Canon H264 files via AMA. In other words you can import them into Avid bins and work with them, but that won't run so good (especially H264).

So I can work with XDCAM and H264 natively but it is buggy? What kind of problems are we talking about here?


So after import you should make selection (clips, subclips, what ever) and transcode to Avid DNxHD MFX.

Ok. But am I lossing anything by transcoding to DNxHD? Probably not but I just want to make sure. In the end of the day it is still a generational lost though.


For DPX you will use Avid Metafuze. Free Avid application that runs on Win & Linux (no OS X).

So that won't work on a Mac? I wonder if it will cause any problems for grading in Resolve on the Mac?
I absolutely need DPX and I absolutely need Resolve on the Mac. For DPX in Avid I need Windows. To grade these same DPX in Resolve I need a Mac. Resolve on Linux is out of my range.
Trouble?


Metafuze will convert DPX sequences to AVID MXFs and keep the metadata

It will keep the metadata but will it still be uncompressed? Or will it compress the files making me lose quality? I'm thinking MXF may be a wrapper here but wanted to make sure.


Edit with mxf files.
Export tiff sequence for Nuke


Can I also export DPX instead?

Bring back VFX sequence into Avid
Lock your edit
From here you have some different paths to CC suite:
A) Export EDL, purchase $500 MXF option for BM Davinci Resolve and conform Avid MFX files in Resolve


Can't I go the DPX way? Or maybe TIFF (if Resolve works on TIFFs)? Must it be MXF?


B) Export EDL, "bake" export your sequence, create cut list with EDL in Resolve

Not sure i understood it here. :(


C) Reconnect original media ....
Again, I'm oversimplifying explanation here but I hope you'll get the picture how it works.


Thanks for the explanation. It was very helpful. Although I do have a couple of questions about it. :)


In Premiere you would import XDCAM, H264 and DPX original files and edit right away.

Man, Premiere is looking more handy and less work. I guess Avid is still lagging behind in some aspects. What was more attractive in FCP than Avid was because I had the impression Avid was always either lagging behind or holding back.


You can download trials for the both applications (you don't have to purchase via App Store just to try it out :) ) and test some workflows yourself.

Yep. I just want to narrow down to one first so I can try that first and if it works for me I just stick with it.

Thanks again Ivan.


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Ivan Radovanovic
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 27, 2011 at 4:35:07 pm

- AMA is not buggy but you won't get legendary Avid realtime performance (especially with h264). Probably that will change with 64bit MC6
- Transcoding to DNxHD is basically the same as transcoding to ProRes. Both codecs are visually lossless, but not mathematically lossless.
- Metafuze is not trouble, you'll just have to use emulator or another Win/Lin machine.
- Other questions requires much, much longer explanation.
Bottom line - if you want fast transition from FCP, Premiere is the right choice.


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 1:34:38 pm

Thanks for all the replies. It seems a lot of people are sold on premiere. I did some search and it seems avid can do all and more. So what is the premiere selling point? Is it the lower price? Or just the adobe suite integration? The later does not matter at all for me as I do not use any other adobe product.
One of the things I find curious about premiere is that I can never really find anybody using it outside of weddings, corporate and short form stuff. Definitely never heard of a main stream movie being cut on premiere for example. I wonder why the higher end seems to shy away from premiere? What's the catch if it is so good and powerful?

The problem of not having too many people using the program you are using for the same thing you are using it for is when questions arise it's hard to find people who can answer your questions.

I'm sure if I start using premiere and start cutting weddings in lower formats or corporate interviews from AVCD, XDCAM and DSLRs and I get a workflow question I will have a million help replies. I' sure if I come with a question of how to do a title sequence in AE and import into premiere I will be a quick reply.
But will I be able to get help when I come with higher end questions? +

How many premiere users here use it for long form work?

How many premiere users here cut DPX sequences? What are the premiere needs for a DPX post workflow? Any caveats?

How many export and send DPX sequences from premiere to a compositing department to be composited in Nuke or Fusion and then get it back again in DPX or EXR and you have to do a re-conform on your time line?

How many people here send their projects to a Protools facility for audio mixing?

How many must send their entire long form project to Da Vinci for grading?

How many must generate multiple versions of their projects for DVD, Blu-ray, Digital Cinema Projection, Web etc?

What workflow did you use to generate a master for 35mm film transfer last time you did it?

How many must prepare different versions of their project for different languages?

How many must generate different versions for approval? What's the workflow you use for that?

How many must work and collaborate with more people rather than being a one man show?

Those are the things that concern me in going the premiere way. Good thing about avid is that they have been doing this stuff for decades and it has always worked for them. Before FCP they were pretty much the only game in town. We did have other applications but avid was the largest and had the huge majority of the market. Now that FCP is falling, will avid be supreme again? Doesn't matter. But the piece of mind in knowing they have been doing all of the above for years surely makes me more comfortable with them than with adobe.

This is no adobe bashing. I'm asking serious questions with serious interest.


Oh apple, why did you have to forsake us? LOL.


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Tom Daigon
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 1:54:24 pm

You are asking good detailed technical questions to a primarily FCP 7 audience considering options like you are. While some may have experience with these products, I suggest you pose these questions in Avid and Premiere forums where the level of familiarity with products is probably much higher.

Todd Kopriva at the Adobe forum is very knowledgeable.
http://forums.adobe.com/community/premiere/premierepro_current

As to Avid, maybe others can suggest an equally good resource.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 2:22:28 pm

[Tom Daigon] "Todd Kopriva at the Adobe forum is very knowledgeable."

Todd is one of the most frequent posters at Creative COW. Don't hesitate to reach him through the Premiere Pro and After Effects forums.

Our Avid forum is quite active too, and many of the guys are familiar with FCP, for obvious reasons.

That said, a lot of the guys who are active in the Avid forum are active in the FCP forums as well, for equally obvious reasons. In fact, some of the most active posters in one forum are also the most active posters in the other....again, for obvious reasons.

It's slightly less true with the Premiere Pro forum, but I predict that this might change right quick.

My point being is that this is just as good a place as any to bring this up, because there are lots of multi-lingual guys here. But certainly as you drill down, a visit to those other forums might be in order.

In any case, there's nowhere better to get the answers to these question than the COW. This is a great thread. Carry on, gentlemen...especially if you're gentle. :-)


Best,
Tim
Creative COW


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David Cherniack
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 3:11:16 pm

[Adam Claude Jones] "I'm sure if I start using premiere and start cutting weddings in lower formats or corporate interviews from AVCD, XDCAM and DSLRs and I get a workflow question I will have a million help replies. I' sure if I come with a question of how to do a title sequence in AE and import into premiere I will be a quick reply.
But will I be able to get help when I come with higher end questions? +

How many premiere users here use it for long form work?

How many premiere users here cut DPX sequences? What are the premiere needs for a DPX post workflow? Any caveats?"


Hi Adam,

You're really operating from old information. With the 64 bit CS5+, the Mercury Playback Engine, and RT CUDA effects Premiere began have sheer playback power and long form capability. I use it for cutting complex hour documentaries 500+ events on 10 tracks of video and 10 tracks of audio with no slowdown.

The only reasons it's failed to move into a lot of high end post facilities are inertia, ignorance of it's new capabilities, and a shortage of a complete third party ecosystem, that have had the time to develop around Avid and the 'late' FCP, that make it unsuitable for some uses. The last has been slow to change, however, but will probably accelerate greatly as people start moving from kicking its tires to taking it out for a test drive.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 9:52:10 pm

[David Cherniack]The only reasons it's failed to move into a lot of high end post facilities are inertia, ignorance of it's new capabilities, and a shortage of a complete third party ecosystem, that have had the time to develop around Avid and the 'late' FCP, that make it unsuitable for some uses. The last has been slow to change, however, but will probably accelerate greatly as people start moving from kicking its tires to taking it out for a test drive.

Hi David. And there probably lies my problem with premiere. :(

Premiere has been around for longer than FCP and yet FCP managed to gather that ecosystem but premiere never did. This is what worries me about moving to premiere.


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David Cherniack
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 10:34:36 pm

[Adam Claude Jones] "Premiere has been around for longer than FCP and yet FCP managed to gather that ecosystem but premiere never did. This is what worries me about moving to premiere."

Adam, this shows a lack of knowledge about Premiere's history. In its present incarnation it's been around for a lot less time than FCP.

Premiere Pro was a 2003 total re-write of the Premiere Randy Ubilos wrote in 1993 that was used mostly by amateurs. The re-write was done inside Adobe. Versions 1 through 4 were 32 bit and suffered for memory shortage, especially when used with IO drivers. It was difficult to use in a broadcast environment. Few did.

Version 5 (2010) was a re-write for 64 bits that suddenly turned it into a stable speed demon that could playback just about any native codec thrown at it. It was really version 1 in the same way that FCP-X is version 1 but Adobe kept continuity with the past, and post facilities began taking a serious look at it. Some like the BBC began using it. But with FCP's enntrenchment and all the iron invested in the FCP eco-system, there was a reluctance of most to switch, even though in terms of raw performance it was clearly way ahead. Now, that's likely to change.

So just in terms of the time that Premiere Pro's been on the market, at most it's about 5 years less than FCP and really, in terms of a viable candidate for higher end pros to switch to, it's about a year old. At NAB they released a fairly strong update to 5.5

You can read all about Adobe's vision of the future for Premiere and the video apps:

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/industry-trends/adobes-vision-for-professional-vi...

Jim Guerard, of the Pro video division lays it out very clearly what their intentions are. They want to be right up there leading the market. I have no idea whether they'll succeed but as a user since 2005 I've seen a radical shift in their approach over the last couple of years that leads me to believe they're going to give it their best shot.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Dennis Radeke
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 25, 2011 at 8:33:20 pm

David did a good job of discussing Premiere Pro's fresh code base and the effort that goes into a re-write - it really becomes a new product. The difference obviously lies in the fact that Adobe did not radically change the editing paradigm as Apple has done.

To speak to your concern, I think that Adobe has as good or better of an ecosystem than Apple does. Certainly with things like After Effects our plugin compatibility is greater than anyone else out there and all of the big guys (Red Giant for example) make their hosts compatible with both Premiere Pro and After Effects whenever possible.

For other hardware partners, we work with all three of the major video i/o vendors for the Mac, hang off of the same storage as anyone else (including Avid's ISIS) and are now growing increasingly cozy with broadcast centric, high-end solutions such as Harmonic Media Grid and several others.

We publish a robust SDK (software development kit) so anyone can build support for our products - just search 'Premiere Pro SDK' and you'll find it easily enough. That's a big difference next to some of my competition - easy access to develop support for a given product.

Lastly, we're working with some partners in ways that gives us terrific performance, namely nvidia. The CUDA architecture, while not 'open' like OpenCL, is actually ready today and working. In speaking to a major plugin vendor this week, he said that OpenCL still isn't ready...

Hope this helps give you confidence about Adobe's ecosystem as well.

Cheers,
Dennis - Adobe


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Jim Wiseman
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 26, 2011 at 2:04:20 am

You really should check out the new Media 100 Suite. All Mac. XML in and out of Color, Resolve, FCP 7. Seamless to and from AE. Red raw support to 4k. And solid as a rock. Supports AJA boards. Easy learning curve. Free 14 day free trial. media100.com

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 1.7.1, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, Macbook Pro Core2Duo, G5 Quadcore PCIe, Media 100i/XR


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Adam Claude Jones
Re: So who is the best candidate?
on Jun 26, 2011 at 11:47:01 am

Thanks. I will check it out. How does it handle DPX sequences? How about XDCAM EX and 5D H264?

Thanks.


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