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Aindreas Gallagher
Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 14, 2013 at 10:29:40 pm

I blurbed about this in a post a mile into the"interesting series" piece, but the back and forth stuck in my head so I thought I'd try it again as a question on edit prep in X

Basically whether there is a cost in having all footage flow into tags in a one step process - with a single viewer for those tags.

I rabbited on - but throwing out some quotes for contention:

that system which Apple are employing is intended to short circuit a lot of the classical footage interrogation steps - you rapidly diffuse all the footage into a database set of tag queries - the argument is that you are in fact, by limiting it to this - one step, make a tag database, and then view those tags in the viewer -fundamentally limiting spatial and cognitive understanding of the assets at hand.


then there is say, the benefit of a classical extreme footage load workflow:

three days footage prep - naming and marking in the day date camera original bins, then taking those master bins, with all the clips keyword named (with some tagged markers per clip), and then judging a whole new set of bins - crowd react day, different sport items, timelapse, different music acts, evening events - basically figuring the ideal number and nature of the final edit bins to work with -and then going through and populating all the clips into those new category bins.

then I made select sequences for all the major tasty stuff in each new category bin.

the great thing is that at the end of that - you really, really know what the hell is going on.


this bit I really believe - the act of putting physically named objects into nominated editorial containers, from other day date containers, I find embeds stuff a lot. that you get a physical understanding of assets.

and then an arsey conclusion about memory recall feats - which really is a lot of the non-linear editing process:

the whole editing game, to some degree, is finding a way to allow associative recall at a critical juncture - sure aren't all memory feats built on the construction of virtual rooms? Derren Brown is extremely interesting on that point. He constructs incredibly spatial memory awareness constructs to allow card count recall.
Quite literally rooms with objects in them - its worth looking up. Spatial awareness constructs harness memory to an incredible degree.

there is a reason editing systems have historically had rooms, and folders, and bins, and attics (seriously - think about that - classic lightworks had attics).

but as the man says - I'm sure Apple felt very, very smart when they decided to do this tagging malarky. I'm just not sure they did their intellectual homework.



there you go - as opposed to my usual carry on - I actually believe there is validity to the concern about Apple's approach to editing assets.
People will argue that proliferating media renders classical approaches redundant given the volume - I say that is wrong. I have dealt with very heavy loads (24 hours of material for a 2.30 piece) and you get by fine if you work hard at it.

I think spatial is a thing - and I think there is an issue with its total absence in the database tag query system.

... and if everyone could just agree on this, we can all send apple a nice letter about bins and spatial memory arrangement.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 14, 2013 at 11:25:46 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I think spatial is a thing - and I think there is an issue with its total absence in the database tag query system."

I agree and think you raise some very interesting points. Cognitive science identifies visual thinking and verbal thinking as two distinct learning styles.

My hunch is verbal thinkers are most comfortable with FCPX's tag and database driven organization tools; which use words and lists as the main UI. I know for me personally, I'm a spatial/visual type. When I'm organizing, I'm not thinking about words, even if the content has words in it. I use color-coding and often create piles on the timeline or in bins. I may label those piles but performing and knowing spatial placement is a big part of my organizing scheme. I agree there is a kinesthetic memory effect which is a value tool for editors who work that way.

BTW, I'm not saying one way is better than the other. I really do believe preference comes down to brain wiring. I think FCPX's tagging/organization tools are very innovative and powerful. Just the other day I was wishing for tagging in Premiere. But to your point, I think spatial organizing is very important as well. I would love to see FCPX have better tool for this, both in the event manager and in the timeline.

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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 14, 2013 at 11:57:45 pm

David, did you ever use VideoCube? It had a blank area below the timeline where you could just throw clips. It was awesome and I've never seen anything like it. When I moved on to Media100 I felt completely lost. Where do I throw clips I'm thinking about using I wondered? it was very disturbing to my flow. You can see it at the bottom of the timeline at 2:40 in this video



- Used it like auditions. Just kept possible clips in this area below the timeline. Without this area, I've becom accustomed to throwing different choices on different tracks and enabling/disabling as needed. But this area was so much better than that or putting chunks at the end of the sequence, because you never had to clean anything up. Your thoughts were always there. It was so ridiculously simple and useful.


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Don Walker
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 1:46:05 am

Long live the CUBE!!!!! After years of editing in PreRead and the likes, in high end linear suites, the Cube finally convinced me that non linear was the fun way to edit!

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 7:05:59 am

I graduated in '93 and at my first job at GA Tech Athletic Associaton in Sept '93 we got a Cube. First one sold in GA I was told. It's basically why I took the job. I was blown away. The first two weeks there my boss had a family emergency and I was left all alone to figure it out and make highlight films for the football team and shoot/edit interviews for the weekly satellite feed. Talk about being thrown in the pool!


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 7:27:22 am

[Bret Williams] ". You can see it at the bottom of the timeline at 2:40 in this video "

Cool video, Bret. Thanks for posting. Never used it, I think we went straight from Avid to Media 100 around that time.

[Bret Williams] "Just kept possible clips in this area below the timeline. Without this area, I've becom accustomed to throwing different choices on different tracks and enabling/disabling as needed. But this area was so much better than that or putting chunks at the end of the sequence, because you never had to clean anything up. Your thoughts were always there. It was so ridiculously simple and useful."

Super cool. Wish we had something like that in any of the NLEs today!

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David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 5:36:16 pm

Avid was around in '93, but it was still single field offline only for a couple years. The cube had some amazing features. It was wavelet, so it was good quality for being 12:1 compression! And 60i too. Probably AVR 75 ish quality. But the graphics were completely uncompressed. It was a hybrid. It didn't ever render in its first iteration. The video never entered the Mac. The Mac just controlled playback and capture from the media processor, which was essentially a switcher with hard drives. The Mac did supply graphics to the videos, which was completely downstream, uncompressed, so they were sharp as could be. Satellite feeds we created with it were broadcast weekly on local stations and nobody ever questioned the quality.


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 5:55:34 pm

Favorite NLE ever. Bar none. It was the NLE of choice back in the early days of NBC 2000 (the fine folks who gave you squeezed credits and the "seamless sweeper" ID).

The video out of the Cube was roughly comparable to 3/4" videotape. The Turbo Cube was akin to 3/4 SP. The main reason NBC chose the Cube over Avid was the full raster. The engineering people insisted on a full raster picture, which seemed to knock out any NLE at that time (which was precisely the result NABET and the engineering staff wanted - but that's a whole other story). Avid output 720x480, not 486. Only the Cube output 486.

We digitized from D3 masters, did our thing, added credits (via the downstream keyed) and output back to D3 for integration into the air master. (Our audio guy did a proper mix and layback.)

In retrospect, it had a number of FCPX-like features: a true A-roll/B-roll timeline (though the b-roll was not "connected" like FCPX), lots of real time fx (although pretty simple stuff by today's standards. Not ther standard interface, but once learned, you could really fly on that thing. Really fast for promo work - much faster than Avid, at least for me.


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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 8:48:57 pm

You were using a cube in 2000? I would think you'd be using the Stratasphere by then.

I'd say the original was more akin to Betacam regular, and the TurboCube was getting closer to BetaSP, at least visually. At 5:1 compression for the TurboCube I'm sure that scopes would say otherwise. But in an era where BetaSP was still being cut in small suites, sometimes via svideo or composite, the video cube looked better than many projects edited on BetaSP via analog suites. By 95 I was working in a place with two turbocube suites, and 2 Sony AB roll suites. In the AB roll suites we were constantly going down a generation or two. Sometimes just to make a dissolve, because the two shots were on the same tape. And sometimes we would make a change at the last minute that required editing from the master to a new master, etc. So by the time you went down 4 generations vs 1 on the cube, it really looked better.

I have some PSA spots I edited on the cube featuring Nomar Garciaparra from 94/95 era that I HAVE to get up on YouTube. Just need to find me a cheap betacam deck to digitize. I think I'd get a few hits. Some other standout athletes back then too... Travis Best, Drew Barry. Might have some stuff from them too.


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: Video Cube (was Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall)
on Mar 15, 2013 at 9:26:09 pm

Hi Bret.

No, this was mid 90s. (The unit was called NBC 2000 because it sounded good.) The first units we had were the original Cube, then we upgraded to the Turbo. The wavelet compression was pretty good, but the actual horizontal resolution was not quite Betacam at that time. The realtime playback looked good, and as you point out, the downstream keyer was sharp as a tack. But we usually had to render the titles, because the system couldn't keep up with titles less than about 40 frames. Those credits flew by pretty fast, except for the mandatory 2 second DGA cards. Because everything had a squeeze and reposition, more than 2 layers also had to be rendered. So it started to deteriorate pretty quickly.

The Stratosphere kicked it way up, but by then NBC 2000 had switched to Avid. (On-air promo used avid just for offline, and finished in the linear bays.)

I really liked the Cube. The controller was nice, especially for us old on-line guys. Except for FCPX, I rarely use the upper video tracks on NLEs except for compositing. That goes back to keeping a clean video track for a clean EDL for finishing, but I realize I'm old fashioned. Using connected clips in X feels a lot like going back to the Cube, even with the connected audio on the b-roll track!

I generally use just one monitor to edit, except for Avid which really wants two monitors. Having the "viewer" and/or picture monitor switch between "source" and "record" is just like the linear bays worked. 1 edit monitor and 1 picture monitor is just fine.

It occurs to me that old folks (such as myself) may have an easier time adapting to X than those who learned on an Avid or FCP Classic.

Jeff M.


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John Godwin
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 9:53:51 pm

I've got a 1200 in the basement I'll loan you. Just test it with a throwaway tape first.

Best,
John


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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 4:39:20 am

I'll take you up on it too! Nomar!

I also have a concert of The Grapes on New Years at the Cotton Club I shot (with GA Tech's BetaCam no doubt) from 12/31/94. That one will be destined for YouTube as well as the Nomar spot. The audio was horrible, but I found a soundboard of the event on web archive. I was plugged into the board on one channel, but the feed was distorted.

Maybe early next week eh? I'll buy ya some lunch.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 4:52:56 am

[Bret Williams] "I also have a concert of The Grapes on New Years at the Cotton Club I shot (with GA Tech's BetaCam no doubt) from 12/31/94."

THAT sounds cool. Shout out when you post, will ya?


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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 6:20:02 pm

I will. I've got a light week. Famous last words. So maybe I can get it married to the soundboard this week.


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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on May 3, 2013 at 3:22:52 am

Not sure if youi're still following this thread... but here's the first Grapes installment on YouTube -







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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on May 3, 2013 at 2:53:00 pm

And for anyone else following that was just waiting for that VideoCube Nomar Garciaparra spot,,,







That has to be some of the earliest broadcast NLE material.


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John Godwin
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 5:17:55 am

Call me Tuesday, shooting Monday.

Be good to see you.

Best,
John


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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 6:20:51 pm

I will. Unless I get sucked into something I have a light week.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 14, 2013 at 11:59:52 pm

[David Lawrence] " I know for me personally, I'm a spatial/visual type. When I'm organizing, I'm not thinking about words, even if the content has words in it. I use color-coding and often create piles on the timeline or in bins. I may label those piles but performing and knowing spatial placement is a big part of my organizing scheme. I agree there is a kinesthetic memory effect which is a value tool for editors who work that way."

Yeah, that's me too. Its very spatial--almost geographic--for me: I put that over there, now I'm going to pick it up. It's all about direction, for me. But I agree; I don't think one is better--one is more just how I am.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 12:24:37 am

[David Lawrence] "I use color-coding and often create piles on the timeline or in bins. "

me too.

[David Lawrence] "BTW, I'm not saying one way is better than the other. I really do believe preference comes down to brain wiring. I think FCPX's tagging/organization tools are very innovative and powerful. "

totally agree - it's not a hit on X or adherents - I was basically making the point that in writing the various replies, I realised that I actually construct a very spatial iterative memory path thing. it's the iterations of place and order that struck me most. A lot of my footage physically moves under scrutiny at least once. I think thats an important bridge phase. I think there are levels of re-enforcement that go with it.
It does extend the build phase for the edit - but I feel there is a pay off when you start to draw on it at the critical back end. that you are not simply staring at a list of tags - rather that you have a few mental fold iterations of the set of assets - with physical reality, that then bleed into tag style selects sequences anyway - I think your head has a lot more avenues of recall in that context.

mine does anyway.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 1:51:10 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I feel there is a pay off when you start to draw on it at the critical back end. that you are not simply staring at a list of tags - rather that you have a few mental fold iterations of the set of assets - with physical reality, that then bleed into tag style selects sequences anyway - I think your head has a lot more avenues of recall in that context.

mine does anyway."


Agreed. Where I find this pays off for me in particular is when I need to rescue a scene and the perfect shot is something I remember but was shot with an entirely different purpose in mind. Or perhaps I need a transition and the perfect footage is actually when the camera was wildly swinging before finding the shot. Shots that would easily be considered rejects sometimes are exactly what saves the day. I build memory of these moments as I go thru the material in a way similar to what you describe. I'm not sure tagging them as rejects and hiding them would be an advantage.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 12:10:25 am

[David Lawrence] "is when I need to rescue a scene and the perfect shot is something I remember but was shot with an entirely different purpose in mind."

yes exactly - Half the reason why I manhandle and re-order the footage items is to develop links in the head - physically shunting stuff around re-enforces it for me.

Again - the tagging database system in X is quite brilliant and new - but I think, and some X proponents have said on this thread, that apple could probably introduce some spatial aspects without overly clouding the tagging metaphor.

Its a question of how tight they want to hold onto the single brick interface. So far all they will allow are the kind of Huds you see for Red material.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 14, 2013 at 11:32:05 pm

I agree. And that's how I work with bins (keyword collections) in X. With 2 differences-

1. I can only see one bin at a time. I hope that they add the ability to have multiple event windows. Kinda like premiere does. Then you could have one window showing thumbnails of one keyword collection, and another showing list view of a different collection.

2. In X I can see multiple bins (keyword collections) combined together as one for sorting. A nice feature. I can shift click multiple bins and see the resulting combined bin. From there I can sort in list view on different aspects.

3. And why not a third. I can always see ALL the footage in an event by highlighting the root event. From there, it's easy to find a particular shot or graphic that I perhaps couldn't remember the name of or what bin I put it in.

If we could fix #1, does that solve this spatial recognition issue? if not, then I'm missing the point.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 12:45:55 am

no - you're totally right, look: basically, Apple could pretty much pull off whatever they feel with this software. Some of the stuff in X is unearthly.

when I say spatial I mean spatial - bottom line it goes to (1)
I would say that I could be hesitant about an editing system that does not allow physical spaces for video items to exist in comparison to each other.

(2) is basically the provision of an avid super bin to my limited understanding - it's a nice feature - but Avid also allows rampant physical locations by default.

(3) is really just project view-ish.

I haven't a massive position on this - I think there are incredible smarts in X footage categorisation - what I'm really saying is that, in arguing it, I realised that my process involves a wind up that requires physical, iterative manipulation of the assets -
in my context (not a rule) I think it plays into the ability to make associative recall at the business end?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 6:57:46 am

Ah yes, the super bin. I was out of Avid land for the most part by the early 2000s. Whenever I dove back in that super bin always confused me. And haven't they actually gotten rid of it now and replaced it with tabs? Or am I confusing two things?

#3 does have some merit. There might be something in Avid or Premiere, but there's no way to view all footage in legacy that I can remember. You load footage into all these bins and there's no way to just see everything without doing a "find all" command.

It's interesting that the options are so open in X as well. I mean, at first I said to myself, an event is a project and a project is a sequence. You can work that way if you want. But you can also put seqeunces in events. Even before 10.0.6 (you just had to start a compound clip in the event and paste it all into it). But now I'm thinking that events are bins. Or can be if you want. Or they can be reels. Or they can be different days. However you like to categorize your footage really. The benefit of using events is that you can matchframe back to an event. The bigger your project is, perhaps, the better it is to think of events as bins instead of keyword collections as bins. I just wish they'd address #1. I really want to be able to see thumbnails of my broll in one open window and a list of interviews in another. And please can we get a thumbnail in list view?


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andy lewis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 11:03:08 am

A part of my brain loves the idea of obsessively tagging all my footage and then being able to quickly refine searches. What we need here is a girl smiling in the park - fantastic! Type... girl, park, happy... Done!

The thing is though, that projects consisting of those kind of tasks are the kind of projects I'd rather do less of. In my experience, the literal-mindedness usually goes all the way to the top. As the editor I am looking for a shot of a girl smiling in a park because the project was conceived in a crudely literal way. She's happy because her whites wash whiter!

I'm not snobbish about marketing - there is plenty of marketing to which this doesn't apply.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I feel there is a pay off when you start to draw on it at the critical back end. that you are not simply staring at a list of tags - rather that you have a few mental fold iterations of the set of assets"

When I'm thinking like this it means I'm properly engaged in the edit. And actually the sorting process (I use markers a lot in FCP7) is just a means to an end - an intuitive grasp of the whole and the specifics of the material. It's only on "decent" projects that this kind of intuition is of value. Definitive labelling and automatic sorting of everything doesn't look helpful to me when the goal is knowing the material with any kind of depth and subtlety. It seems more like a (very seductive) barrier.

In short, FCPX looks perfect for exactly the kind of jobs I'd rather avoid.

That said, I use classic FCP in ways it wasn't designed to be used - I use timelines as scratch pads for example. So my question for FCPX users is - are there ways to usefully subvert the literal nature of metadata tagging?

I'm not ruling it out and like I said, a part of me loves the idea.


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Steve Connor
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 12:08:43 pm

[andy lewis] "That said, I use classic FCP in ways it wasn't designed to be used - I use timelines as scratch pads for example. So my question for FCPX users is - are there ways to usefully subvert the literal nature of metadata tagging?"

Interesting discussion and I absolutely agree with much of what has been said about the processes involved However i would like to make a few points.

The first one is important so I'm going to say it in caps, not because I'm shouting, but because it's a very important point to bear in mind if you're not familiar with FCPX

YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE KEYWORDS.

Use of keywords and automatic importing of folders into keyword collections is OPTIONAL, I hardly use it myself because like Aindreas said I like to familiar with ALL the material I have.

The next point is this, sorry it's going to be in caps again.

YOU CAN USE KEYWORDS IN ALMOST THE SAME WAY AS YOU USE BINS, or even "rooms"

Simply set keywords and drag your clips over them to put them in the "bin" exactly the same as FCP Legacy, you can even have the same clip across different "bins" However as mentioned you can only view one "bin" at a time, hopefully people have been submitting user requests to enable multiple windows for keyword collections.

[andy lewis] "I use timelines as scratch pads for example. "

You can do the same things with projects, although once again you can only have one open at a time, however it's a quick keyboard shortcut to get back to the project browser to open another though.
.
The other advantage is that you can have ALL of your footage in one window if you want and in icon view you can scrub through ALL of it without ever clicking on a clip. I recently worked on a project with 2500 clips and there were times when I literally went through every shot.

If FCPX affected my awareness of my source material, I simply wouldn't be using it.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 12:57:53 pm

[Steve Connor] "YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE KEYWORDS."

there are only keywords steve. tagging ranges is the only organisational avenue available to you - I'm kind of surprised you haven't realised this.

[Steve Connor] "YOU CAN USE KEYWORDS IN ALMOST THE SAME WAY AS YOU USE BINS"

no - its not a container, and objects can't be physically moved to a new container or positioned within a container.
You can go all caps til the cows come home. It is in no way a bin. Its a database keyword tag. Again - I'm kind of surprised you don't see this.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 3:56:09 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "there are only keywords steve. tagging ranges is the only organisational avenue available to you - I'm kind of surprised you haven't realised this."

I haven't realised it because it's not true. Make a keyword and it appears in the event library, exactly the same as a bin would in the project window of FCP7, drag a WHOLE clip from the media browser (no tagging of ranges involved) onto this keyword and that WHOLE clip will be contained within the keyword "bin" .

Click on that Keyword in the event library as you would click on a bin in FCP7 and ALL the clips you have dragged onto the keyword "bin" appear in the media browser (no ranges involved)


[Aindreas Gallagher] "no - its not a container, and objects can't be physically moved to a new container or positioned within a container."

Yes they can, you can have the clips in as many of the "bins" you want, the only limitation at the moment is that you can't have more than one "bin" open at the moment

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 4:28:56 pm

I think the point--well, at least the point for me--is that what you can't do is have multiple bins open and floating around or tucked behind various parts of the screen or screens. I often place bins (or timelines I'm using as bins) on different parts of the screen or screens and muscle memory of spatial relationship becomes part of my categorizing. Those or up there. That's down there. These are off to the side. The bins are more like containers you'd place on a work bench.


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Steve Connor
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 4:31:06 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I think the point--well, at least the point for me--is that what you can't do is have multiple bins open and floating around or tucked behind various parts of the screen or screens. I often place bins (or timelines I'm using as bins) on different parts of the screen or screens and muscle memory of spatial relationship becomes part of my categorizing. Those or up there. That's down there. These are off to the side. The bins are more like containers you'd place on a work bench."

That is correct, at the moment FCPX actually has containers but they are fixed to the desk.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Steve Connor
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 4:29:03 pm

Here I've drawn you a picture






Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 4:49:34 pm

Organizationally, there is no question that its a valid approach. I think the point, though, is that some of us tend to use spatial relationships as a big part of our organizational techniques. The screen(s) becomes a desk or workbench. I'm definitely like that. Its the thing I miss most about Legacy; I could bend and shape the layout into anything I wanted. Now, some people hated that, felt that the interface could become needlessly cluttered, and think that of X as bringing new clarity and focus. I'm not like that.

Since its release, I've thought that this was one of the central determiners of how people react to X. And, I don't think there is any right or wrong to that reaction, though I did not think that at first. I wore heavy blinders as to how others worked, and assumed that everyone worked just like me. Having spent so much time on this forum, I of course realize that that's not the case.


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Steve Connor
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 5:00:06 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Organizationally, there is no question that its a valid approach. I think the point, though, is that some of us tend to use spatial relationships as a big part of our organizational techniques. The screen(s) becomes a desk or workbench. I'm definitely like that. Its the thing I miss most about Legacy; I could bend and shape the layout into anything I wanted. Now, some people hated that, felt that the interface could become needlessly cluttered, and think that of X as bringing new clarity and focus. I'm not like that.
"


Which is exactly why FCPX should let you open keyword collections and projects in separate multiple windows, I understand this, I've seen enough Editors working like this to know how common an approach it is. I'm just pushing back against the idea that somehow you have to sit there and keyword all your clips in FCPX, rather than just dragging a bunch of them into "bins"

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 5:23:38 pm

[Steve Connor] "Which is exactly why FCPX should let you open keyword collections and projects in separate multiple windows, "

That would be cool.


[Steve Connor] "I'm just pushing back against the idea that somehow you have to sit there and keyword all your clips in FCPX, rather than just dragging a bunch of them into "bins""

Ah! Understood.


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 5:53:00 pm

[Steve Connor] "Which is exactly why FCPX should let you open keyword collections and projects in separate multiple windows, I understand this, I've seen enough Editors working like this to know how common an approach it is. I'm just pushing back against the idea that somehow you have to sit there and keyword all your clips in FCPX, rather than just dragging a bunch of them into "bins""

Steve, when clips are viewed in a keyword collection as thumbnails, can you manually arrange them or color them? I've never tried so I'm really curious. If not, something like this would be valuable along with multiple windows because color-coding and gathering physical piles is another strategy many of us "spatial" editors use.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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James Culbertson
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 12:30:34 am

Of course you can select more than one keyword collection to have them presented at the same time in the event list or clip view (and then sort them secondarily there).

Interesting to hear of others workflows. I didn't understand the premise of Aindreas's workflow at first. And then I realized that I essentially always worked in FCP legacy the way that FCPX presents clips (listview sorting of bins/clips in the browser almost 100% of the time). Perhaps it's my memory but this has always worked for me whether called bins or keyword collections. And I've worked on feature length documentaries with 100+ hours of footage...

I do tend to use timelines to rough out interviews and B-Roll. And I still do that in FCPX in some cases. But I find that FCPX event functionality makes it so I don't need to use timelines in the same fashion quite as much.

Just got done with a 4 minute edit referencing about 20 hours of footage. My feeling is that I am more efficiently able to remember and find footage in FCPX than I am in FCP legacy. But I don't know if that is because my visual memory is improving or if FCPX is better at visual organization with respect to my workflow. I am very careful about naming and comments/notes to facilitate searching.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 12:38:59 am

[James Culbertson] "Interesting to hear of others workflows. "

It is, isn't it? That's one of the cool things about this spot.


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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 6:23:32 pm

I find it bizarre that you nearly agreed with when I said the exact same thing as Steve earlier. If X would just let us have multiple navigable event windows that we could position, THEN we'd have everything that legacy had, plus a lot more. It would be nice to have storyboard bins where you can position the clips anywhere within the bin. Or the ability to edit to the timeline the selected clips in the order you selected them. Premiere has that.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 2:19:32 pm

[Bret Williams] "but there's no way to view all footage in legacy that I can remember."

You throw all your clips onto a timeline and search away. In Legacy sometimes the best bin is a timeline.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 4:53:15 pm

[Herb Sevush] " In Legacy sometimes the best bin is a timeline.
"


For me? If you dumped the "sometimes" I could definitely agree with that statement.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 5:08:27 pm

[Chris Harlan] "For me? If you dumped the "sometimes" I could definitely agree with that statement."

When searching thru clips I agree. However there are, for me 2 great advantages of bins over timelines which occasionally come in useful.

First of course is re-sorting. A timeline is fixed, you've already made your sort by the order in which you laid them out. there are times you want to resort by a clip feature and bins are perfect for that. It's also much easier to see the clip properties in a bin if you need to check that sort of thing.

Bins are also great baskets for odds and ends you want to group together. In my cooking series I have a bin labeled "generic" where I keep my basic music stings, my title open, my underwriter spots, end credits, lower thirds and segment graphics. Each of the separate elements are held in folders within the main bin. This sort of "grab bag" is a perfect way to hold them, much more efficient than a timeline because I don't have to search them I just need to get at them.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 5:22:13 pm

Agreed. I should have used a smiley-con. I was just being overly enthusiastic.


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andy lewis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 5:40:43 pm

My fantasy for FCP8 organisation turned out to be almost exactly the opposite of the direction apple went in. They went more verbal when I was hoping for more spacial and visual.

I imagined some kind of supercharged storyboard mode for rough organization of clips. Just filmstrips on the screen with one tiny viewer. You drag clips around, arrange them how you want, group them, sync them, write notes on them or next to them. Circle a group while holding command and the clips form a timeline. Not sure how practical it would have been in reality.

I'm sure that some kind of modal interface for compression and output would work well though. It would be nice to be able to copy and paste entire output pipelines between projects and be able to see at a glance exactly what you are doing.

Doesn't seem as if any NLE is going in that direction. I'll just have to cross my fingers wait and see what's announced a NAB for windows moviemaker


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andy lewis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 5:44:11 pm

Ahem... I meant nodal not modal.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 5:48:52 pm

Have you looked at Lightworks? It's the closest thing to your dream scenario that I've seen - complete flexibility and interface customization with multiple bins and timelines out the wazoo... It's pretty funky at first but then it starts to make real sense...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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andy lewis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 5:56:06 pm

I haven't. I'll definitely check out the mac version when it arrives, thanks.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 6:07:47 pm

This video shows a lot of the flexibility. I too am looking forward to Mac version...







Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 6:28:09 pm

Looks good. I wonder if the Mac version will support ProRes.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 6:46:48 pm

[Chris Harlan] " I wonder if the Mac version will support ProRes."

The non Mac versions support ProRes decode so I'm guessing that on Mac it will support full encode and decode in ProRes.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 1:10:26 am

[Herb Sevush] "The non Mac versions support ProRes decode so I'm guessing that on Mac it will support full encode and decode in ProRes."

Good to know. I'm actually impressed with how far its come.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 5:59:12 pm

[andy lewis] "I imagined some kind of supercharged storyboard mode for rough organization of clips. Just filmstrips on the screen with one tiny viewer."

Possible in Smoke and to some extent in Media Composer.

[andy lewis] "Circle a group while holding command and the clips form a timeline. Not sure how practical it would have been in reality"

You can do this (with selected clips) in Media Composer and FCP X. Of course, you have to invoke an edit command.

[andy lewis] "I'm sure that some kind of modal interface for compression and output would work well though."

Sort of there in Smoke - a separate output "mode". But not "nodes" for output. That sort of existed with XM|Edit a while back. You have that in Episode of course, but that's an encoding tool.

The difficulty in all of these ideas is implementing them in a modern system, where you have different screen configurations and resolutions. And eventually tablets, too. FCP X does a pretty good job of that and still keep things from becoming a total mess.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andy Field
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 9:27:51 pm

I still live and breath "reels". Like the old reels of film - or resl of tape - it makes life (for me) so much easier and the spacial relationship recall is easier.

Our workflow with that "newfangled" file based media? -- We gather clips from each card/xdcam disk/hard drive record....arrange it by timecode or order shot - and place it in a timeline.

That timeline then becomes a virtual reel. TL1 TL2 = Real 1 Reel 2...

We log everything on each real - soundbites - nat sound - shots etc...create a database of material we can either print or search with
MovieLogger http://www.digital-heaven.co.uk/movielogger - one of the fastest manual loggers around -- it exports verbatim logs and XML files so you rapidly find any clip you need and even search in FCP for the exact word you're looking for in a soundbite or shot description

Write the piece using logs - or create a paper edit

Then go to to town with our timeline/virtual reels

Having logged and reviewed everything that "spacial" relationship - one shot to the next in each reel - is already imprinted in our noggins.

Scrubbing for the right shot or sound (or just typing in the timecode) is a breeze and makes life so much easier than hunting through bins - individual clips or even keywords when you already know the flow of what you've shot

FCP7 made virtual clip reals easy - OPTION DOUBLE CLICK to open the virtual reel as a viewer -- add in and out points -- CMD drag to timeline to edit only the original underlying clip into a new timeline.

Not sure if this is possible in FCP X -- Hope they are working on that work flow in Adobe Premiere.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 9:40:46 pm

[Andy Field] "FCP7 made virtual clip reals easy - OPTION DOUBLE CLICK to open the virtual reel as a viewer -- add in and out points -- CMD drag to timeline to edit only the original underlying clip into a new timeline.

Not sure if this is possible in FCP X -- Hope they are working on that work flow in Adobe Premiere."


Sigh.

Too much FUD in this thread to even begin to address.

But this one is silly. Want "REEL" IDs? Takes maybe 30 seconds to go to the incredible custom keyword generator built into X and setup a concatenated REEL ID tag and have X apply it to clips you toss into a smart collection. Or apply to a found set you've pre-defined. Or apply to a folder or card or drive on import.

X is a DATABASE at it's heart. Know what databases do REALLY well? They sort, sift and allow you to append NEW information to existing information.

If "REEL" Info makes you happy, you can be DELIRIOUS in X. You just have to lean how.

If an editor doesn't understand this. They simply don't understand X.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 9:50:51 pm

[Bill Davis] "But this one is silly. Want "REEL" IDs? Takes maybe 30 seconds to go to the incredible custom keyword generator built into X and setup a concatenated REEL ID tag and have X apply it to clips you toss into a smart collection. "

I'm afraid you misunderstood his interpretation of "reel". He's talking about an assembly of selects to a timeline/sequence. And then cutting from that selects "reel" (i.e. timeline).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 2:20:15 am

[Oliver Peters] "I'm afraid you misunderstood his interpretation of "reel". He's talking about an assembly of selects to a timeline/sequence. And then cutting from that selects "reel" (i.e. timeline)."

Fair enough. But I'd question why, in the X workflow, this is desirable? That "selects reel" laid out as a horizontal visual process can be mostly done in the Event Browser via a simple keyword collection. Admittedly, it can't be visualized "full screen" and it scrolls up rather than across, but as to the presentation of visual information, it communicates exactly the same information. The difference is that in Legacy, you can't really DO anything to the laid out clips aside from the most rudimentary of arrangement and perhaps limited color taggins, where in X, you can sub-range, and retag things infinately.

Just because that workflow was required as a work-around for poor source organizational tools in Legacy doesn't mean it's going to continue to be the best way to work when you are given more sophisticated source ID tools.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 3:35:16 am

[Bill Davis] "Just because that workflow was required as a work-around for poor source organizational tools in Legacy doesn't mean it's going to continue to be the best way to work when you are given more sophisticated source ID tools."

That's assuming the workflow is a work around. What if for spatial thinkers it's not? What if for spatial thinkers, it's an essential memory building and associating method?

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 7:22:10 am

[David Lawrence] "That's assuming the workflow is a work around. What if for spatial thinkers it's not? What if for spatial thinkers, it's an essential memory building and associating method?"

I'm not sure if we'll ever know whether or not what we're labeling "spacial thinkers" is as useful a construct as some here appear to believe.

Once upon a time, moving the horse drawn cart from a straight line to the track on the right meant you had to pull inwardly on a tethered rein leading to the horses right bit. Then the steering wheel came along and moving ones new conveyance to the right meant you had to rotate a wheel clockwise.

These are two totally different muscle memories and concepts - one disconnected from reality in a profound way (move something around to make a lateral motion change???) - yet people didn't have much problem at all adapting to the new concept.

All I'm saying is that I find editors as a class to be quite intelligent, adaptable, and flexible. That's not to say they don't have preferences and comfort zones, they most certainly do. But they're also quite facile about moving outside that comfort zone if there's benefit to be had.

They might THINK that the best way to conceive of spacial relationships is to work in the way that's comfortable to them right now.

But have you noticed how many good solid editors who've given X a fair shake have come away satisfied, even enthused?

But I agree there are interesting points being made.

And that's good enough for me.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 8:37:39 am

[Bill Davis] "'m not sure if we'll ever know whether or not what we're labeling "spacial thinkers" is as useful a construct as some here appear to believe.
"


Sigh. PERIOD.

Nah. It just doesn't feel good when I do it. Maybe its a "list," thing, though I'm not sure we'll ever know. (Smiley icon goes here)

Lighten up. We're not trying to define a new mental health category for the DSM VI. We're talking about how people like to work and how they feel most comfortable doing it.

Should you want to delve into it, however, you might try Howard Gardner's Frames of Mind: The Theory of Multiple Intelligences Of particular interest to this conversation would probably be the chapters on spatial intelligence and a mode of thinking that he identifies as bodily-kinesthetic. I've only read some of the abstracts and synopses; I think I'll put this book on my reading list.

You also might take a look at this article from Psychologists Newcombe and Frik, Early Education for spatial intelligence: Why, What and How:

http://www.temple.edu/psychology/newcombe/documents/early_ed_for_spatial.pd...

if you want to go further it's got a great list of references.


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al ellis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 9:05:59 pm

Bill Davies'I'm not sure if we'll ever know whether or not what we're labeling "spacial thinkers" is as useful a construct as some here appear to believe.'
The brain was wired to think spatially before we had language, recall and calculations done in the visual cortex allows greater depth, breadth and speed.

see this
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/alexs-adventures-in-numberland/2012/oct/2...

Aindreas' point about derren brown is well made, memory feats are invariably done like this. these people arent savants or freaks, theyre merely using the part of the brain that works best for this kind of thing,


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Oliver Peters
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 1:28:07 pm

[Bill Davis] "But I'd question why, in the X workflow, this is desirable? That "selects reel" laid out as a horizontal visual process can be mostly done in the Event Browser via a simple keyword collection. "

You are correct, but it's simply a working preference that many editors have. If an NLE is versatile, it should accommodate such preferences in style. I think X does, and have explained how in another post.

[Bill Davis] "The difference is that in Legacy, you can't really DO anything to the laid out clips aside from the most rudimentary of arrangement and perhaps limited color taggins, where in X, you can sub-range, and retag things infinately."

Sure you can. You are hung up on the tagging and not seeing past it. If I string out a set of clips I can now edit from them (overwrite/insert with sequence content) or copy & paste from one sequence to another. And you can search within the "legacy" sequence timeline. All editing is about pouring a ton of content through a funnel. This is simply one type of funnel and tagging is another.

[Bill Davis] "Just because that workflow was required as a work-around for poor source organizational tools in Legacy "

Not a workaround, but a preference.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andy Field
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 11:11:14 pm

Why the sigh? And the condescending tone? I simply said how I like to work. It wasn't a personal attack. And I truly didn't know if you could replicate that in fcp x as I don't use it much.

Why are so many answers and comments laced with vitriol here?

So you are saying you can tag a group of clips and then click on something that makes it one log-able scrub-able exportable and then reimport able XML reel? If so. Very cool

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Oliver Peters
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 11:29:12 pm

[Andy Field] "So you are saying you can tag a group of clips and then click on something that makes it one log-able scrub-able exportable and then reimport able XML reel? If so. Very cool"

That's not really how it works. You can tag clips with a Reel ID, or more to your question, add keywords that can be sorted into a Keyword or Smart Collection (similar to how Mail, iPhoto and Aperture work). You end up with a Smart Collection or Keyword Collection (think bin of subclips) that are sorted based on your tagging.

Then sort these by TC or alphabetically or other fields, select all and edit to a Project (timeline, sequence).

Next, you can turn this timeline into a Compound Clip (think nested sequence) which ends up in your Event and can be used as a source for your edit . Pick your in/outs and edit to clean Project. Use the "break apart items" if you want to un-nest the clips on this new timeline.

I think that's pretty close to the way your workflow would happen in FCP X.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 2:37:49 am

[Andy Field] "So you are saying you can tag a group of clips and then click on something that makes it one log-able scrub-able exportable and then reimport able XML reel? If so. Very cool"

scrubable - YES
log-able - That's what keywording IS in X. It's "logging" your decisions as you go.
exportable - YES with a temp comand A - W - then export the new range - process which takes about 5 seconds.
scrubbable - EVERYTHING is scrubbable in X. Events, timelines, audio tracks, everything. you use a keystroke to turn live scrubbing off - it's the program's default state for everything.

And yes, X does XML input and output - but really, some of us find that unlike our prior software where the only path to really top notch results was constantly going out of - and then back into the NLE to perfect picture and audio - X's rebuld on top of Core Video and Core Audio in the new Quicktime free 32bit floating world - means less need to do that. But it's conditional. If you shoot well and record good audio in the first place, and so don't need more than common corrections - theres less need to go outside the software than I've ever experienced before.

If you're inside a collaborative workflow or if you're dealing with serious problems, then NO, you won't get with X the same level of collaborative tools you might be used to having in other NLEs.

I wouldn't mix down a music session inside X. And I wouldn't try to shade 10 different model cameras inside X for a multi-cam shoot. It's tools are darn good for most tasks but not built for that kind of truly exacting precision work yet. (then again, I haven't had a weird shot come in from the field with a screwed up color cast that I haven't been able to get to a "darn decent" look in X, but I'm generally NOT trying to match subtle skintones in mixed lighting or do other stuff that some folks live and die by - so the realistic answer is X is NOT a good "step in" substitute for a high end workflow right now.

But the way it's growing, I wouldn't bet against what X will be in a few years. Not at it's rate of constant improvement.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 1:04:58 am

[Bill Davis] "Too much FUD in this thread to even begin to address."

Bill, you're missing what's going on in this thread, and you are misunderstanding what Andy was talking about. Really, I think you should take a step back. This is a particularly interesting and relatively non-judgemental thread, where-in people discuss and/or discover that their reactions to X might just have something to do to with the way that they interface with the world at large, and that it is not necessarily because it is a good or bad program. Maybe you could put your sigh away?


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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 2:53:53 am

[Chris Harlan] "Really, I think you should take a step back. This is a particularly interesting and relatively non-judgemental thread, where-in people discuss and/or discover that their reactions to X might just have something to do to with the way that they interface with the world at large, and that it is not necessarily because it is a good or bad program. Maybe you could put your sigh away?"

Message received.

Fair. I'll step back.

But just understand that I'm sensitive to people who keep talking about what X does with very little experience using it.

I'm ALL for the theoretical discussions that take place here all the time. And I agree they are often useful and illuminating. But they simply MUST start from a place where the capabilities of the software are accurately reflected. It's no good to start a serious discussion with the presumption that the reason the thing is considered "broken" is that the people who use it least - happen to see it in that light.

People come here all the time and ask open and fair "does it do this?" Questions. But the whole "spacial awareness and memory recall" concept seems to me to be highly suspect.

For this reason....

At it's heart, it's NOT (as Charlie is often fond of saying) really all that 'different" from the way most other NLE programs operate.

It has layered some extra and different capabilities on the old model. The database, keystroke defeatable magnetism, clip compounding - these things are not very weird at all. They just take precisely the same dedication and conditioning that learning to operate Legacy well took back during it's first few years.

The ONLY difference between then and now is that there wasn't a huge cadre of editors invested in NOT having to re-learn stuff. Well, to leverage the capabilites of X, one must. Period. Simple as that.

So to argue that the reason some won't warm to X is that thee's a problem with their "spacial awareness and memory recall" is far sillier than to simply acknowledge that those folks don't have ANY problem with sensory systems, they just either don't have the time or the interest to learn the software. Period. Full Stop.

In that way X is EXACTLY like every other NLE program in existance. Those who don't "get it" are those who don't use it. True of AVID, and Premier, and Vegas and X in perfectly equal measure, IMO.

X is NOT simple software. But neither is AVID or Premier.

To judge any of them, you need to KNOW them.

Simple as that.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 4:22:54 am

[Bill Davis] "Period. "

Use that one or two more times and I think you'll have trademarked!


[Bill Davis] "The ONLY difference between then and now is that there wasn't a huge cadre of editors invested in NOT having to re-learn stuff."

But see that's just not true. A majority of the editors I know are constantly improving themselves, educating and reeducating themselves. You seem to believe, for instance, that Media Composer and Legacy are nearly the same beast, but, really, they are as far apart as Legacy and X. You have to rethink some fundamental things about NLE function, particularly if you have been primarily a mouse-driver in FCP, to go from one to the other. I think you are being truly unfair to people because they are not learning what YOU like.

[Bill Davis] "X is NOT simple software. But neither is AVID or Premier.

To judge any of them, you need to KNOW them.
"


Do we? All Caps KNOW? Or, maybe just know about? You've got to make judgements because you can't learn everything. Right? You looked around and said, "Okay, I get X; I like what I see; this is where I want to go." You made a judgement not to learn or relearn Avid or Premiere. You looked at them and decided which way to go, and you can't fault people for doing the same, just because they went in a different direction. I'm not going to sit here and donk on you for not taking 3 months to learn or brush up on your Avid skills, and tell you that you don't have the right to say that it doesn't appeal to you, and that you can't make a judgement about it.

[Bill Davis] "But the whole "spacial awareness and memory recall" concept seems to me to be highly suspect."

The feel of X was/is good for you. That's cool. You like--heck, you LOVE (all caps love, you note?)--the textual organization and the rich searchable metadata. Having it all organized in that corner there makes sense to you. Your thought processes fit very nicely with X's interface metaphors. But not everybody's' mind works the same way yours does.


[Bill Davis] "In that way X is EXACTLY like every other NLE program in existance. Those who don't "get it" are those who don't use it. True of AVID, and Premier, and Vegas and X in perfectly equal measure, IMO."


Exactly. That's what this whole thread is about. It's not about X being better or worse. You get lists. I get "my best CUs are at the bottom left, my VO sellects are tucked behind the playback monitor, and my dialog picks are right over here." Not better. Not worse. Different.


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Julian Bowman
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 8:04:29 am

Who invited the Grinch to the party. Such a good thread with differing opinions playing nicely together and expanding everyone's thoughts/beliefs/understanding then jack boot Dave stomps in and missing the point witters on about X being Jesus Christ's come back album.

Honestly you're worse than YourHavingALaugh on the guardian comments section.

Such a tiresome soul.



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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 9:29:08 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "there you go - as opposed to my usual carry on - I actually believe there is validity to the concern about Apple's approach to editing assets.
People will argue that proliferating media renders classical approaches redundant given the volume - I say that is wrong. I have dealt with very heavy loads (24 hours of material for a 2.30 piece) and you get by fine if you work hard at it.
"


No, no and a thousand times no.

I can't believe you're still flogging this horse.

X makes absolutely NO "classical approaches redundant." That's an amazingly stupid reduction of how X actually works.

Want to "see" your clips? Click on the root (top) level of the event. BINGO - all your clips are spread out in EXACTLY the same iconic view as in Legacy.

X does NOT limit your ability to navigate visually in any way shape or form. (Unless you stopped investigating X's organization at step 2 of it's numerous possibilities.)

The database tool in the EB has ONE primary function. To allow the USER to self-determine secondary sort criteria that THEY find useful. Period. End of story.

It REQUIRES nothing. It obscures nothing. It gives the user OPTIONS. That's ALL.

Anyone who's EVER used a database understands that this is what they ALL do. They allow you to organize alternate views of the SAME data. To argue that a database approach OBSCURE data is INSANE. They only OBSCURE data if you're to inexperienced or unschooled to understand how to set them up and use them. For anyone who DOES - they instinctively understand that unless the user ELECTS to create views that obscure something in order to enable them to focus on a subset - the whole reason database approaches solve problems is that they grow ever more powerful the more they're used.

You are working so damn hard to try to justify your long held contempt for X that you've stretched into the realm of fantasy.

X is NOT a system designed around the principals of constraint (contrary to your extremely limited point of view, sir) - It's a system built around the concepts of offering the user tools to help them FOCUS and SEARCH and SORT large masses of data in a world increasingly flooded with the same.

If you don't get that - then yes, I'll say it again, you simply don't "get" FCP-X. Which given your history that's the least surprising thing written this month in this forum.

Folks, if you want a decent review of a local Mexican, or Chinese, or Thai food restaurant, here's a tip. Don't give much weight to the critic who self-admittedly doesn't LIKE, EAT, or have very much experience with or knowledge about that particular type of food. And certainly NOT the writing of someone who states publicaly, over and over and over again that they literally can't STAND that type of food.

Listen to the people who USE it daily. They know more.

Period.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 10:20:40 pm

[Bill Davis] "You are working so damn hard to try to justify your long held contempt for X that you've stretched into the realm of fantasy."

[Bill Davis] "If you don't get that - then yes, I'll say it again, you simply don't "get" FCP-X. Which given your history that's the least surprising thing written this month in this forum."

[Bill Davis] "Listen to the people who USE it daily. They know more.

Period."


This has been such an interesting and civil thread. Can we stay on topic please? Everyone agrees that tag and database-driven organization is a powerful, useful tool. What does this have to do with spatial awareness and memory recall?

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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 15, 2013 at 11:57:02 pm

[David Lawrence] "Everyone agrees that tag and database-driven organization is a powerful, useful tool. "

yes completely. Mind you, he did call me "sir" somewhere in that morass of caps and invective, so thats something.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 12:33:49 am

Nothing. Worst most off topic post I've seen Bill write in at least 36 hours. I don't think he gets it.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 12:50:42 am

Bill, this has been a pretty interesting, earnest thread and I think you are missing the boat by not having a closer look. It really gets down to the fundamentals of why some people cotton immediately to X, while others find it uncomfortable and disconcerting. Really, it is worth a thought or two, and might add a little light to just why there is so much contention.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 1:13:53 am

[Chris Harlan] " It really gets down to the fundamentals of why some people cotton immediately to X, while others find it uncomfortable and disconcerting."

I really do think the concept of visual versus textual learning is important. I'm in the middle of my annual 3-week stretch of teaching college film students about editing. This includes about 16-hours of hands-on lab training with a mix of real projects. This year I have them on FCP X. Part years I've done FCP 6/7, Avid and even Premiere (before Pro) years ago.

I find it quite fascinating to watch what really trips them up and what they take to. In general, they are learning X at about the same rate as similar classes have learned FCP "legacy" and Avid in the past. No big advantages that I can see. Some take to it and some are completely baffled. Most seem to have issues with the same things the pros do - namely the magnetic, trackless timeline.

Most tend to work visually. Others like to thoroughly keyword and organize first. Both valid, yet different approaches.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 3:14:43 am

Okay, civilly and amicably...

What part of X does anyone here see as lacking "spacial awareness and memory recall" capabilities?

When I have a storyline in X. What is inherently "less spacial" about it?

When I have a visual array of source clips in my Event Browser, what makes that less "spacial" or less "memorable" than clips in a bin?

If I do a "scratch" timeline in Legacy and then bring that in as an element in my final Master Timeline - in what way is that functionally different from doing a compound clip in X?

What about a nested clip? Is that somehow counter intuitive in Legacy? And if not, why is the compound clip in X an issue?

What precisely is the "spacial awareness or memory" challenge that X fails to address that Legacy solved?

To my thinking I can edit in X a LOT like I edited in Legacy for 11 years. Yes, I miss a LOT of what's special in X, but I can certainly just toss clips on a timeline and start cutting. Think of Events as BINS and go on my merry way - no keyword no hassles.

So what's the consensus? IS there something fundamental about the X approach that makes it less approachable?

And if so, what is it?

I'm listening.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 3:32:10 am

[Bill Davis] "What precisely is the "spacial awareness or memory" challenge that X fails to address that Legacy solved? "

I suggest starting at the top of the thread and re-reading. The differences in visual vs verbal workflows been discussed in detail. It's interesting stuff.

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James Culbertson
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 4:13:47 am

If you had asked me prior to this thread, I would have said that FCPX was the most visual of any NLE I have used. So, it is interesting to hear that some folks think it is less so than other editing apps.

Off the cuff I would say that for me that is because FCPX's metadata and database capabilities are much more efficient than other editing apps and allow me to move away from the verbal/textual to the timeline more quickly and efficiently.

For me editing is about perceptual absorption and intuitive reaction when I am wired up (as they say in the Social Network). Of course there is an intellectual/analytical component in making decisions. But I feel like FCPX allows me to spend less time thinking and more time getting into the audio/visual flow of editing.

Bottom line: I don't agree with the original highly philosphical premise of this thread.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 4:51:37 am

[James Culbertson] "If you had asked me prior to this thread, I would have said that FCPX was the most visual of any NLE I have used. So, it is interesting to hear that some folks think it is less so than other editing apps."

Visual, I think, is the wrong word. Or rather, its the wrong word once you get past color coding. The point is that some of us use spacial relationships and landmarks like color-coding to map out our thinking, or even just to think, to prioritize. The relational spacing of bins and timelines often reflect hierarchical importances, often subconscious--closer, for instance, is for more immediate use, further away or on the other monitor is not for use right now but I want it floating in my periphery vision so that it stays in the back of my mind.

In some respects, its like a crowded, semi-messy desk. People who can't relate to them don't understand that there is an awful lot happening on them for their owners. There are a lot of reminders and thoughts, hanging there, frozen. People who can't relate to that see only chaos and slovenliness. They don't see thoughts or ideas in the little piles and groupings. That's "spatial awareness and memory recall."

X is very orderly and very efficient. And very visually structured. You call a collection up. You use it. You dismiss it. You call another collection. It's capable of admirably fierce organization. But you can't leave little piles of it around, tucked in corners, stacked side by side or in rows or on top of each other. And, for a lot of people that's just great. Clean desk, clean mind. For others, it's empty desk, empty mind.


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Bret Williams
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 5:10:40 am

The keywording can be a mess in disguise too. I've had producers bring me an already logged event, or even multiple events. The keyword collections often make sense to them but are puzzling to me. They're really just that person's version of piles. Keywords like "steve's camera" or "good extras" might mean something to someone else, but nothing to me. Heck, my own bins and keywords usually mean nothing to myself when I come back to a project months later. And if I pull up my own AE project at a later date just to grab some technique or effect, I often can't figure out how I accomplished something. No matter how well I tried to organize it. It's all very much in the moment. Part of why we all hate to stop and break our train of thought when we're deep into something.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 8:56:12 am

Man, I too have been on both sides of the creative bin name issue. Over the years I've gotten much better, but if I'm in a rush on project I'm soloing, it can still get out there. "Thursday's stuff," just doesn't play well six month's down the line.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 9:05:57 am

Also, check out these desks. I want Al Gore's screens.

http://www.complex.com/tech/2012/06/famous-tech-ceo-desks#1

http://flavorwire.com/151458/desks-of-the-rich-and-famous-workspaces-of-hig...


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James Culbertson
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 6:22:26 pm

"[James Culbertson] "If you had asked me prior to this thread, I would have said that FCPX was the most visual of any NLE I have used."

[Chris Harlan] >Visual, I think, is the wrong word."

Ah, thanks Chris. This makes more sense to me now. What we are really talking about is different organizational styles, which form a continuum that includes spatial and other types of thinking.

It sounds like FCPX (or any NLE for that matter) works for some modes of spatial thinking but not as well for others. Though perhaps preference is a better word than mode as mode might suggest there isn't some amount of choice or adaptation involved (whatever NLE we might talk about).


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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 7:01:30 pm

[James Culbertson] "It sounds like FCPX (or any NLE for that matter) works for some modes of spatial thinking but not as well for others. Though perhaps preference is a better word than mode as mode might suggest there isn't some amount of choice or adaptation involved (whatever NLE we might talk about)."

A thought I can unconditionally support in this thread.

Thanks James. Nicely written.

IMO, this entire thread is about conditioned preference.

Nothing more or less.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 8:12:39 pm

[Bill Davis] "IMO, this entire thread is about conditioned preference.

Nothing more or less."


Actually, less.

Remove the word "conditioned" and we're in agreement. Cognitive science suggests we're wired the way we're wired. Chris' post has some great references if you want to learn more.

Show me a list of words and my eyes glaze over. Give me pictures and colors and piles in space and I can easily find my way. That's not "conditioning", it's the way I think.

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James Culbertson
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 11:10:04 pm

[David Lawrence] "Remove the word "conditioned" and we're in agreement. Cognitive science suggests we're wired the way we're wired."

That's a pretty general statement to make. You need to specify which "wires" you are referencing, and even then it really depends upon your motivations and commitment to change. When one puts Cognitive Science, Neurobiology, and Psychology (all of which I studied in college) into the context of the "meditative" radical-empirical traditions like Buddhism you will begin to see that it's a much greater grey area than the simple reductions of cognitive science suggest. Just my proto-graduate studies in neuro-plasticity contradict the notion that we are hard-wired. There is a mix of nature's "hard-wiring" with nurture's conditioning (or habituating). It takes hard work to notice and change deeper "wiring," but it is not necessarily impossible. Buddhists say that a full-time meditator can even potentially un-wire the (cognitive) notion of space, time, and sense of ego or "I-ness." ...Do I digress?

In any case, I don't see that "we are wired the way we are wired" applies to the kinds of activities we are discussing in this thread. I may not work spatially in the way Aindreas and others have described, but there is no question I could learn to if I needed or wanted to.


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 11:32:19 pm

[James Culbertson] "That's a pretty general statement to make. You need to specify which "wires" you are referencing, and even then it really depends upon your motivations and commitment to change."

This thread is about how the differences between verbal and spatial thinking might affect comfort with UIs that favor one way over another.

You forgot to quote the second part of my statement:

[David Lawrence] " Chris' post has some great references if you want to learn more."

Here's the link again: http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/49649

Check it out. It's interesting stuff and suggests we're wired the way we're wired.

[James Culbertson] "Do I digress?"

Yes. :)

[James Culbertson] "I may not work spatially in the way Aindreas and others have described, but there is no question I could learn to if I needed or wanted to."

True. You can force yourself to learn anything. But given a choice, why would you if the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks? To me, a more interesting question is why some might lean one way or another and what that implies for good UI design.

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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 8:37:15 pm

[Bill Davis] "IMO, this entire thread is about conditioned preference."

That's because you are blind and unwilling to open yourself up to the possibility that different people function in different ways, in spite of fifty years of research that demonstrates that they do. And, you get mean about it.


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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 9:33:46 pm

[Chris Harlan] "And, you get mean about it."

Me? Mean? Odd since the people I meet and interact with in real life virtually never say that. But then again, perhaps this is an instance of that same "conditioning?"

Is it possible some here have become conditioned to read what I write with a tone that wasn't actcually intended? Or maybe it's my writing style. Perhaps it's un-intendedly bristly. If so, again, my apologies.

(Actually, on reflection, I will cop to having been a bit personally grumpy the past week or so - I had a mild medical scare a few weeks ago when a new insurance policy mandated physical came back showing an elevated PSA level - the biopsy results arrived yesterday and showing NO problems - so maybe I was translating extra nerves into extra grumpiness - If so, again my apologies. Getting older sucks, huh?

But honestly, ask anyone who actually knows me, my default is neither mean nor combative. Opinionated? Absolutely. Willing to defend my thinking. Beyond question. But I never write with the intent to be mean or demeaning.

Well, again on reflection, I do suppose I tend to rise to confront what I see as dismissive or arrogant with similar brute force. I kinda dislike absolutism. And I'm surely sensitive to all that absolutists who argued that X was "crap" for so long here.

But in the end, if what I write here comes across as combative, it's honestly from lack of craft, not from intent.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 9:48:21 pm

[Bill Davis] "it's honestly from lack of craft, not from intent.
"


right. sure.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 10:37:00 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "right. sure."

I suppose this is a question trying to cast me as the guy who sits and crafts personal invective and then edits it to make sure it stings effectively.

But really, I don't have nearly the time for that.

I sit and write. I try to be clear. I call out bunk when I read something I think is bunk.

Then I hit send and let everyone else judge it. Just as you do Andreas.

The irony is that as much as I dislike your relentless negativism, you often bring out exactly the same emotion in me. That's a personal failing I'll attempt to moderate.

Probably the mechanism of ignoring what you post would be my best option, but I'm still haven't quite evolved to the point where I can let what I personally consider to be half-baked theory substitute for reasoned argument and be OK with it.

Yeah, I could be wrong. You could prove correct in that there are "types" of people who just can't comfortably edit with X because their "spacial awareness" or "visual memory recall" are sub-standard by some obscure measurement compared to Legacy editors.

But I fundamentally and seriously doubt it.

I bet that given proper training and a willingness to learn, virtually any editor can learn not only to use X but to truly enjoy the experience.

All it takes is a little time and practice.

And thankfully for my view, with every upgrade and version increment, more and more editors are taking the time.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 9:00:28 am

[Julian Bowman] "Can I vote he just buggers off and doesn't come back? Is that an option? Please let it be an option. I'd pay extra for it. Damn I'd pay a subscription to this forum if the pay wall kept him out."

Now now, we're all friends here. Let's play nice... :)

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Oliver Peters
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 1:39:18 pm

[Bill Davis] "What part of X does anyone here see as lacking "spacial awareness and memory recall" capabilities?"

You cannot open two or more bins (collections) as floating windows and place them over each other or side-by-side and compare clips within, or drag clips from one to the other. Yes, I know collections sort of do this same function, but the first method is visual, the second isn't.

The second difference between X and others is that you can't re-arrange clips in any other order than alphanumeric ascending/descending sorts of some field. In Media Composer for example, you can set a bin to the Frames view and re-arrange shots like a virtual story board. BTW - you can also do this in Aperture by opening a light table. I don't remember, but I think Lightworks can do the same, as can Smoke.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 2:01:23 pm

I would add that another way "spatial" comes into play are the options you have for custom screen configurations. For example, the ability to have one bin be textual and another only show frames. With X this is a global event browser setting as are the visible metadata fields. Screen configuration is limited in X and there may be no way around that, thanks to compromises for various formats and the move to make X a fullscreen application.

But as a reminder, here are a number of examples of what *could* be done with "legacy":

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2010/06/18/better-editing-with-custom-scr...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 3:34:58 pm

[Oliver Peters] "But as a reminder, here are a number of examples of what *could* be done with "legacy":

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2010/06/18/better-editing-with-custom-scr..."


Great article! Amazing how flexible Legacy, Pr and MC allow you to be with custom layout. FCPX has a long way to go in catching up. I hope Apple will consider adding this level of flexibility to their full-screen apps.

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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 7:14:14 pm

[David Lawrence] "Great article! Amazing how flexible Legacy, Pr and MC allow you to be with custom layout."

Absolutely.

And it only took them about 10 years of solid development to get the code body up to the level of user flexibility displayed in those images.

Ten years driven by solid incremental success in sales that provided the financial justification for Apple to pour resources into pleasing users beyond the general basic level editor that FCP-1 (DV-25 ONLY after all) was designed to satisfy.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 7:45:08 pm

[Bill Davis] "And it only took them about 10 years of solid development to get the code body up to the level of user flexibility displayed in those images."

So that's an argument for choosing a program that has that head start, as opposed to one that chose to throw it all away and start over. Besides which it did not take 10 years for FCP to develop customizable screens, it could do that back in '05 when I started using it, don't know when it actually became possible.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 7:48:43 pm

[Bill Davis] "And it only took them about 10 years of solid development to get the code body up to the level of user flexibility displayed in those images."

Wrong.

You could easily do this with early versions any of these NLEs due to their floating window design.

FCPX is currently the only NLE on the market with a fixed, monolithic, single-window app design. It's a big step backwards in user flexibility another reason why FCPX turns off many power users. Apple needs to up their game in this department. The monolithic app window model is not necessarily appropriate for every application.

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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 8:16:02 pm

[David Lawrence] "It's a big step backwards in user flexibility another reason why FCPX turns off many power users. Apple needs to up their game in this department. The monolithic app window model is not necessarily appropriate for every application.
"


Okay, that's a fair view. But again, one constrained by the belief that "big" editing also equates to superior editing editing.

But a bit suspect seen in context of the rest of the changes taking place in computing. Most computers sold now are NOT large desktop models. Those are a diminishing minority of screens in use. Laptops RULE general purpose computing. Tablets are ascendent. Smart Phones are ubiquitous.

To be stuck in the idea that any video editing app must follow the "desktop video suite" model is poor reasoning in my estimation.

For my workstyle, I haven't had a single circumstance where I've felt "constrained" by not having more screen real-estate devoted to doing my video work.

Screen resolution, scalability (zoom-ability?) and accuracy have been elevated for me far above square inches.

I understand that if you're forced to drive long distances over many hours - the Brogham approach to car design is attractive.

If someone's life is short trips around a limited area - then having choices ranging from sports cars, to golf carts to skateboards makes a whole lot more sense.

That said, there are a LOT of grocery shopping housewives in monster SUVs clogging up the parking lots around where I live. To them, one massive conveyance is the norm. For me, not so much.

Different strokes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Lawrence
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 8:51:01 pm

[Bill Davis] "But again, one constrained by the belief that "big" editing also equates to superior editing."

Huh? That's nonsense. I'm talking about how UI flexibility is appealing to power users. Power users may or may not be superior editors. The point is that for some, UI flexibility is very desirable. For some, it may even be essential.

[Bill Davis] "But a bit suspect seen in context of the rest of the changes taking place in computing. Most computers sold now are NOT large desktop models. Those are a diminishing minority of screens in use. Laptops RULE general purpose computing. Tablets are ascendent. Smart Phones are ubiquitous. "

So what?

The fact that digital devices are getting simpler and more accessible for consumers has absolutely nothing to do with what power users may want or need in their specialized tools.

[Bill Davis] "For my workstyle, I haven't had a single circumstance where I've felt "constrained" by not having more screen real-estate devoted to doing my video work."

I think that's awesome. Doesn't mean it's true for everyone.

[Bill Davis] "Different strokes."

Indeed!

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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 10:24:51 pm

[David Lawrence] "The fact that digital devices are getting simpler and more accessible for consumers has absolutely nothing to do with what power users may want or need in their specialized tools."

We disagree on this. When I did that recent LACPUG show - Dan Lebenthol - inarguably a top tier hollywood editor - was busy exploring how consumer tools like the iPad could change his editing workflow.

Will similar tools eventually move us back toward the classic "offline-online" split workflows? And if so, what will an editing tool need to be if it's mostly directed at finishing rather than an "everything in one" approach?

I don't begrudge or dismiss editors who need and want high end tools.

But they have them. It's when they come to attack or cast confusion on the tool like X and paint it as a tool that only ONE particular type of editor (and NOT the upper tier "visual" ones, obviously) will be really comfortable using - that I get uncomfortable.

That's a short hop from entertaining an opinion like "if you're a serious editor you'll use AVID." - a concept that FCP-Legacy soundly debunked industry wide. It puzzles me why so many are willing to tread that same slippery slope regarding X, but so be it.

If theres a way the voices questioning X's ability to do the job comfortably for a particular "type" of editor - can offer a rational explanation of why its workstyle might actually impede a general users ability to get a particular type of job done - I'll listen carefully.

But to date, this particular discussion seems to be coming largely from the same voices who've consistently argued that it's a poor tool, that it's "too different" and that it's approach is "too radical" - although also typically when pressed to explain why - they usually reveal that they aren't day to day users of it.

Aindreas, Chris H, Herb, Franz, and even David H have long histories here. I respect all of their opinions, (yes, even Aindreas's!) but I can't help but cast their arguments in the same skewed light that the clearly cast mine. And now they form the nucleas of the group arguing that X is "suspect" by virtue of some untestable and ill defined spacial awareness failing?

In real life, the standard of proof gets higher the more the kid cries wolf.

I suppose the contention is that we X folks, simply "think differently" somehow. But honestly, I think the entire difference can be explained by the fact that those on the Pro-X side have simply taken more time and effort to re-condition themselves to the functions of X. Rather than spending overmuch time trying to justifty why we think it's overall, a somehow lower tier tool not as worthy of exploration.

But I'm open to counter argument.

So fire away.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 10:41:48 pm

[Bill Davis] "I suppose the contention is that we X folks, simply "think differently" somehow. But honestly, I think the entire difference can be explained by the fact that those on the Pro-X side have simply taken more time and effort to re-condition themselves to the functions of X."

I'm not sure why this has to be an "us vs. them" argument.

[Bill Davis] "Rather than spending overmuch time trying to justifty why we think it's overall, a somehow lower tier tool not as worthy of exploration."

I think this thread is entirely about exploration. I don't think anyone has characterized X as "lower tier". If the goal is exploration, then it's worth looking into ways that X can evolve.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 5:32:36 am

[Bill Davis] "Aindreas, Chris H, Herb, Franz, and even David H have long histories here. I respect all of their opinions, (yes, even Aindreas's!) but I can't help but cast their arguments in the same skewed light that the clearly cast mine. And now they form the nucleas of the group arguing that X is "suspect" by virtue of some untestable and ill defined spacial awareness failing? "

While I appreciate the shout out I have no opinion about whether X is more or less spatial since I've never used it. For the record I'm not particularly spatial, I like words instead of icons, but I do like customizable screen layouts. So while in this case I haven't earned the right to be included in your grouping I do like the company you've grouped me with, so thank you.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 4:49:35 pm

[Bill Davis] "Aindreas, Chris H, Herb, Franz, and even David H have long histories here. I respect all of their opinions, (yes, even Aindreas's!) but I can't help but cast their arguments in the same skewed light that the clearly cast mine. And now they form the nucleas of the group arguing that X is "suspect" by virtue of some untestable and ill defined spacial awareness failing?"

Bill,

There is no "us" vs. "them" here - you seem to be very attached to the idea that it's a fight for the king of editing machines.

If you want to make a division, you could divide commentators into those who have and NLE that they are settled on, and those that are surveying a very changed landscape in post (and entertaining the idea that they may never again have an NLE of choice).

Franz.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 18, 2013 at 11:44:01 pm

the point here Bill, (such as it is), is that the whole basis for my post came directly from your analysis of the limitations of bulletin board picture postcards.

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/49107


You may be conditioned to the NLE equivalent of not being happy unless all your postcards are thumbtacked to a huge physical bulletin board so you can "visually locate" the ones with PINK in them. And that might have satisfied you in the past and you might be stuck thinking that taking away your ability to do the visual choice will impede your editing.... BUT....

After learning X, you discover it's trivial to just VISUALLY select every scene with PINK in it - and drop it in a PINK keyword collection.

X is built around the idea that ANYONE can understand keystroking R then E - and before you even type anything else, you're given an instant VISUAL view of every clip with PINK in it. So there's no need to constantly search the HUGE visual field unless you elect to.

But the serious thing that many editors overlook is that the amount of visual material we have to deal with is INCREASING quite rapidly. The "pin it to the bulletin board" idea simply doesn't work if you have tens of thousands of post cards. It's simply impossible to resolve information within that large a database. So you MUST learn tools that solve those problems if you want to remain relevant in a future where restricting your view to ONE "bulletin board" manageable project might not be even possible in a media saturated future.


a great deal of what you say there is valid. In the end I'm not arguing at all, that X is essentially wrong in any sense, just that I believe an editing system, even one with a next generation footage system, should still take into account basic precepts of memory recall.

Its not rocket science - being given the ability to ascertain multiple item groups in relation to each other is not a conceit - its basic stuff.

Apple having locked the tag queries to a single, one at a time browser is, at the very least, open to question.

come on - I basically proffered this thread to afford visibility - you simply can't say as an editor that you don't want, or need, the space to see two bins at once.

It's brass tacks Bill - isn't it? Seriously?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 19, 2013 at 12:30:32 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "come on - I basically proffered this thread to afford visibility - you simply can't say as an editor that you don't want, or need, the space to see two bins at once."

Select two keyword collections and you can see two at once (or as many as you select).

Also, with the data that FCPX collects on import, you can sort by date and time at any time in any 'bin', so viewing in time is always available to you.

I find the FCPX method to be much more dynamic. I find that I make little subsets of the data because it's so easy and fast.

Thus, I can drill down and keep exactly what I need with range based collections, instead of having to search for three words across 20 takes in a bin labeled "Day 2 footage" or "Sweet Takes Bin 10".

Those kw collections are saved, which means those searches are saved, to be recalled very easily and simply.

When organizing in FCP7, once I go through the initial sort, I have to keep it in the same bin as if I start moving clips around, I won't remember where I put them.

In FCPX, I don't have that problem because I can hold on to or discard exactly what I need through range based selections or other container like methods.

I know that there was mention of not wanting to have the rejected clips hidden all the time.

My favorite part of the rejected clips; in the cases where you need to go back and have another look at your footage to find something you might have missed, those clips are all in one place. I know I have not used those clips and therefore I don't have to sort through all of the footage I have already reviewed countless times.

I can make meaningful sets of data instead of loosely grouping like objects in a bin and double clicking through each one, perhaps marking with a marker or extended marker, that shows up ONLY on that clip in that bin and no where else.

I find FCPX's method to be much more exact, much more fluid, and helps me to concentrate on the edit and not where I might have left 3 words of dialogue. Obviously, it's just the way I think.

Jeremy


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 19, 2013 at 2:13:40 am

all good - do you function primarily as a paid, client interacting editor Jeremy?

it's not a dig, i'm just asking.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 19, 2013 at 3:55:48 am

Usually clients face the back of my head rather than having me face them.

I just had my first full on client based all fcpx sessions last week. I am not exaggerating when I say we were able to explore more creative options because of fcpx.

Why?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 8:47:19 pm

Yes! Thanks for posting! You capture what I considered to be the very best part of FCP. Premiere comes close, and Avid has a way, but none of them are quite able to do what Legacy did.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 1:07:51 am

[Oliver Peters] "But as a reminder, here are a number of examples of what *could* be done with "legacy":"

Interesting article. I ended up not having a lot of different layouts because I used the same layout most of the time, because the familiarity allowed me to work faster. Also the timeline across both screens never worked because as soon as you exited the program or just switched to another program to check email it would snap back to one screen. It wasn't worth it having to continually stretch it back again. I found thumbnail views in the bin weren't helpful because the single still often gave little indication of what was in the clip, unlike the dynamic thumbnails and filmstrip view in X.

Timeline to timeline editing was how I ended up working. But, it was fraught with problems too. You either had to match frame into the viewer and insert from there (remember to mark your ins and outs again). Or you had to copy and paste which required you to split your clip in the source timeline thus losing the visual indication of where clips began and ended and also wouldn't allow you to control what tracks it got pasted into. Loading a sequence in the viewer window was also problematic. It worked fine if the source sequence was 5-10 minutes or so. But with long sequences it was hard to skim through the clip to find your ins and outs. It just jumped over way too many frames to be efficient.

I guess my point is that I never found legacy FCP 7 all that great for organizing and finding material regardless of the flexibility of it. For me X works better. And I'm definitely a visual person. That being said, I'd like more control of the layout in X. I'd move that effects window beside the monitor so I could stretch the timeline across the width of the display. I'd move the Parameters window to second display beside the events window and stretch it down to the bottom of the screen so I don't have to scroll so much.



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andy lewis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 3:32:40 am

[Brett Sherman] "Timeline to timeline editing was how I ended up working. But, it was fraught with problems too. You either had to match frame into the viewer and insert from there (remember to mark your ins and outs again). Or you had to copy and paste which required you to split your clip in the source timeline thus losing the visual indication of where clips began and ended and also wouldn't allow you to control what tracks it got pasted into."

I suppose it's too late now but you don't have to split the clip in a source timeline. Option-A selects the range of the clip between in and out. Yes, not being able to control what track it pastes into is sometimes a pain.


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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 7:07:14 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The second difference between X and others is that you can't re-arrange clips in any other order than alphanumeric ascending/descending sorts of some field."

While this is true on it's face, it ignores the reality that you can get precisely the same function by using the re-naming mode in X to tag clips in any sort order you like and display them thusly.

Is this preceived "lack' an example of something that X trully can't do - or another example of something that X can do easily, but that the user must come at via a different thought process.

I might even argue that becoming familiar with X's very robust asset renaming suite is, arguably MUCH more valuable for the long haul editor - than is having the design team slap a drop down menu with much more limited choices into the interface.

FWWI.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 7:13:48 pm

[Bill Davis] "Is this preceived "lack' an example of something that X trully can't do"

Yes. It absolutely is. Renaming clips to force an artificial sort is completely different than moving a clip up one and two to the left.

[Bill Davis] "or another example of something that X can do easily, but that the user must come at via a different thought process."

No.

[Bill Davis] "arguably MUCH more valuable for the long haul editor - than is having the design team slap a drop down menu with much more limited choices into the interface."

Except that Apple has already done it in the form of the light table in Aperture. So for all we know it's already in the code and could show up in the next version.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 8:02:33 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Except that Apple has already done it in the form of the light table in Aperture. So for all we know it's already in the code and could show up in the next version."

I'm spending a good deal of my time these days trying to learn to be a better photographer, so I'm spending a good bit of time in Lightroom.

I recognize it's power and abilities and use it nearly daily.

That said, it has - for me at least - an extremely vexing user interface.

For reason's I can't fathom, I'm having a MUCH more difficult time learning Lightroom than I had with X.

The interface keep throwing up user alerts like the tiny numbers and auto-creating multiple copies of some of my shots that are somehow "stacked" in the photo arrays and searching diligently on the web for what they and the little appended icons signify and how the underlying management structure works - but the whole thing has been very frustrating.

I know I'll get there in the end, but to argue that X needs to take on more Lightroom style capabilities is a bit of a stretch for me right now.

BTW, Don't get me wrong, I think LR is a great tool.

But perhaps just like folks coming to X, I expected it to be relatively easy to grasp and operate, and it's turning out to be WAY more complex than my initial survey indicated.

Maybe that's just the way modern software is going.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 8:28:45 pm

[Bill Davis] "I know I'll get there in the end, but to argue that X needs to take on more Lightroom style capabilities is a bit of a stretch for me right now."

Go back and read what I wrote. I was talking about the light table feature in Apple Aperture. I never mentioned Adobe Photoshop Lightroom. Although, since you are such a proponent of X, it stuns me to hear you have picked Lightroom over Aperture. Why?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 12:34:27 am

[Oliver Peters] "you have picked Lightroom over Aperture. Why?"

'cuz it's way better...

Feeling cheeky,
Dennis


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 8:52:46 pm

You blow my mind, Bill Davis! Can you be any more deaf to what people are saying? Tommy? Can you hear me? Tommy?


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 3:20:34 am

[Oliver Peters] "You cannot open two or more bins (collections) as floating windows and place them over each other or side-by-side and compare clips within, or drag clips from one to the other. Yes, I know collections sort of do this same function, but the first method is visual, the second isn't.

The second difference between X and others is that you can't re-arrange clips in any other order than alphanumeric ascending/descending sorts of some field."


FCPX should also have the ability to customise Sequences/Projects. Timelines could then be recalled in how they were before you left them. But I'm not holding my breath, really. Seeing how things are done in X, I have my doubts. Why would they prioritise the ability to have Bins open, freely as 7? Or customise your Timeline accordingly? The Event Browser is a fixed framework in which your Events, Folders, Keywords and Clips are displayed. And that seems to be very locked-up. Remember, one cannot even close an unwanted Event. Furthermore, there is a similar approach with the Timeline framework, that in its turn is the same physical space for every Project you put in there. And that is very constrained as well. Remember, one cannot have more than half a dozen Projects at the same time within the Timeline's history. This is pretty much what they intended in the first place, I believe so. And it is a hell of an optimised design for sure, and it works great for fast turn arounds. In other words, that's what matters and Apple is not changing it. It is sad, I know many Editors and Directors who appreciate to have an OPTION to work with the spatial thing, but this seems outdated according to the new order (of pricing?)


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 16, 2013 at 5:37:58 am

Aindreas,

Thanks for starting a good thread.

The difference between "stepping back" and "pushing forward" aside, I have many thoughts on the subject that relate (of course) to sequence-based editing vs. browser-based editing (as I've now come to call it). I think the principal difference might be context, but that's probably for a longer post.

But I thought I'd drop this here now, since it seems somewhat relevant and maybe illustratively useful:

Page 3 of an overly long review of the Palm Pre, 2009, Jon Stokes
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2009/06/ars-palm-pre-review/3/

The interesting part is the comparison of approaches between Palm Pre and iPhone:

"The iPhone's address book, just like its iPod app, expects you to immediately begin browsing for the desired record on launch, so it contains little touches that help you drill down faster through your collection. [Ed: ie. finding items within pre-ordered groups within groups, think of tracks within albums within artists] ... the entire device is designed around the structure-and-browse paradigm, so the default mode of user interaction for the iPhone is that of browsing a structured collection (of contacts, of music, of applications, etc.).

When you launch the Pre's address book, you're supposed to just start typing the name of the contact that you're looking for ... If you try browsing for the desired contact, you're wasting your time, because the data is just not structured for this kind of discovery. Pre wants you to query a service, not browse a repository."


Though we could argue direct parallels, it's stronger as an illustration of two very different approaches to organizing and finding, which ultimately seems to be a difference in both framing idea and emphasis.

Franz.


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tony west
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 1:22:16 pm

To me it's all about getting the clip that I'm looking for up as fast as possible.

It kind of reminds me of a golf tip. Like when people say "let the club do the work" meaning you are swinging too hard.

It's like Apple is saying, let the computer do the work.

The database system is, the computer looking for the shot instead of you looking for the shot.

If you have already seen all the footage and have an idea what you are looking for.

The computer can search faster than you.

This discussion seems like it's kind of about will the computer do the work for the search or will you.

The bottom line for me is…….I want that shot up there the fastest way possible. I already know what I have to work with and now I want it at my finger tips immediately.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 1:33:41 pm

[tony west] "This discussion seems like it's kind of about will the computer do the work for the search or will you.
"


I don't think it is at all. This discussion is about "I have many different choices to make on a whole variety of levels; what's the best way for me to consider those choices."



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tony west
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 2:16:38 pm

[Chris Harlan] "This discussion is about "I have many different choices to make on a whole variety of levels; what's the best way for me to consider those choices.""



I hear you Chris, but in order to make your choice, you are comparing shots to other shots (or sources to other sources) right? How are you looking for the shots that you want to compare to begin with?

If that part is sped up, doesn't it make the choosing part more productive?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 2:39:15 pm

[tony west] "I hear you Chris, but in order to make your choice, you are comparing shots to other shots (or sources to other sources) right? How are you looking for the shots that you want to compare to begin with?

If that part is sped up, doesn't it make the choosing part more productive?
"


Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on what you are working on. If you are working on something scripted, and you are pulling up a couple of shots or a couple of dozen shots, then probably yes. If you are working on a Sizzle reel with TBs of source material, then probably no.

BUT that's really not the overall point of the discussion. I think X's search capabilities are truly fab. I just want to have several different windows open and place them where I want to. I want color-coding and multiple, sizable icon views. I want to be able to compare two different timelines side by side, or one above the other. I want my editing space to resemble a workbench. It's great--necessary--to have a box of index cards on my work bench, but I also want to be able to set them down where I want them to be, and not where I'm told they have to be. I want to spread them out, move them around, re-stack them, and hide them.

And, you don't have to like any of that. That's perfectly fine. There is a great deal of value in X's streamlined approach. Some people work better that way, other's don't. That's the point of this discussion.


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tony west
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 3:32:09 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I just want to have several different windows open and place them where I want to. I want color-coding and multiple, sizable icon views."

Yeah, that would all be cool. I knew when I saw the locked in UI that was going to funky for many people.

The more control you have over your work space the better.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 3:49:47 pm

[tony west] "[Chris Harlan] "I just want to have several different windows open and place them where I want to. I want color-coding and multiple, sizable icon views."

Yeah, that would all be cool. I knew when I saw the locked in UI that was going to funky for many people.

The more control you have over your work space the better.
"


Agreed. And, I totally get why its right on the money for others, as well.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 4:44:37 pm

[tony west] "To me it's all about getting the clip that I'm looking for up as fast as possible. ...If you have already seen all the footage and have an idea what you are looking for."

Tony,

I think you're working on an assumption - that the problem being addressed is that the "shot" or shot need has been defined, and then the necessary action is to find the clip that fills that need. If that is the case, then fast search based on clips categorized and tagged in anticipation of that need is going to be the most efficient solution.

The discussion here is more about how other models work. If you haven't even decided what the need is, what is your search going to be? Or, in other words, how do you set up your editing workspace to best suit your approach to figuring out what your doing?

(Chris Harlan said it better.)

[Chris Harlan] "This discussion is about "I have many different choices to make on a whole variety of levels; what's the best way for me to consider those choices."

[tony west] "It's like Apple is saying, let the computer do the work. ... This discussion seems like it's kind of about will the computer do the work for the search or will you."

There was some interesting discussion here at release about how Apple was designing around "editing intent" and I think this follows on that idea - if you're doing browser-based editing (and Bill Davis has talked about this extensively) then you'll likely find FCPX an excellent fit with your approach.

Franz.


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tony west
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 8:03:51 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "The discussion here is more about how other models work. If you haven't even decided what the need is, what is your search going to be?"

Yes, you are right. I think it tripped me up because so much of what I cut I shot myself, and when I'm shooting something I'm shooting it for the edit. I'm cutting it in my head as I'm shooting it.

I never want to get back to the edit without having what I need so I'm thinking about what I need while I'm shooting.

Even in the case where I'm just cutting another directors script, I'm following their instructions of what they want to go where.

In the first case I know what I have and I'm just going and getting it.
In the second, I'm being instructed to go and get it.

You both are right about Why X fits my style, because it's mostly go get, and it gets well.

"If you haven't even decided what the need is" That's it. In my cases somebody has already decided it.

I'm almost never coming at something from such a clean slate.

I would like to try it though.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 10:19:25 pm

[tony west] "when I'm shooting something I'm shooting it for the edit. I'm cutting it in my head as I'm shooting it.

I never want to get back to the edit without having what I need so I'm thinking about what I need while I'm shooting."


This is exactly the way I work. Could it be X is ideal for the shooter/director/editor? Generally I know a rough structure of the edit before I've even sat down at the computer. For longer pieces I'll type up a simple outline in Word to get organized. Often that is where I clarify my thinking.

Then it's a matter of assembling the narrative content of the piece which is interviews and maybe writing snippets of narration. Having thumbnails laying around doesn't help me at all in this phase because it is almost completely verbal. For short videos I just use favorites to easily find soundbites. If it's a longer video, I keyword soundbites by topic area so they are easy to collect in one location. Once the structure of the piece is down, then it's a matter of matching the visual to the narrative. And when I've shot it, I know exactly what I have so it's a matter of finding it.

There are different kinds of videos. I just wonder how much of this discussion boils down to different types of videos and different roles in making the videos.



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tony west
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 11:00:48 pm

[Brett Sherman] "Could it be X is ideal for the shooter/director/editor?"

Very possible Brett. I know it's ideal for me : )



[Brett Sherman] "Once the structure of the piece is down, then it's a matter of matching the visual to the narrative. And when I've shot it, I know exactly what I have so it's a matter of finding it."

Exactly.

I prefer not to start shooting without a script. That's where the editing begins. Then I delete clips I don't like in the camera before I even hook it up. (love cards)



[Brett Sherman] "There are different kinds of videos. I just wonder how much of this discussion boils down to different types of videos and different roles in making the videos."


Indeed. It seems there are way too many types of projects and too many types of ways to handle them
to really get much of a consensus on a lot of this.

I enjoy reading though : )


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 18, 2013 at 5:30:49 am

[Brett Sherman] "I just wonder how much of this discussion boils down to different types of videos and different roles in making the videos.
"


Probably quite a bit of it.


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James Culbertson
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 18, 2013 at 5:22:24 pm

"[Brett Sherman] "I just wonder how much of this discussion boils down to different types of videos and different roles in making the videos."

Considering that all NLE's have been used to edit all kinds of videos, I would have to disagree in general. For me at least, which NLE I use is matter of personal preference (though sometimes a particular NLE is mandated by the powers that be).

This discussion, for me, has (again) illustrated the diverse ways and workflows by which we as editors do our work, particularly with respect to bin organization but in many other ways too. It has also been illuminating as to the many ways that spatial thinking and memory manifest in the editing realm whether one uses FCPX or not.


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Jok Daniel
Re: Spatial awareness and memory recall
on Mar 17, 2013 at 4:10:35 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I just want to have several different windows open and place them where I want to. I want color-coding and multiple, sizable icon views. I want to be able to compare two different timelines side by side, or one above the other. I want my editing space to resemble a workbench. It's great--necessary--to have a box of index cards on my work bench, but I also want to be able to set them down where I want them to be, and not where I'm told they have to be. I want to spread them out, move them around, re-stack them, and hide them."

That's pretty much an exact description of the Lightworks UI, right down to the index cards.


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