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Editing Disconnected Audio

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Charlie Austin
Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 9, 2013 at 8:21:45 pm

In the gigantic Avid thread below, a discussion of this subtopic appeared and, rather than reply to disparate comments in that thread, I thought I'd make this one. The subject was "how do you edit disconnected audio without sync markers?" the main solution offered seemed to be "don't disconnect it"

Now, I like that sync audio can ride with a video clip, and all the nice audio component features that are available. But I also understand where folks like Herb and Chris H are coming from. I too like to disconnect my audio. It's a totally valid, and easy workflow in X, even without sync markers.

I'l preface this by saying that it would be nice to have sync markers back, but their absence hasn't been an issue for me. And like everyone else, I think Roles should be Groupable, perhaps color codeable, and, when grouped, should try to maintain their vertical position relative to one another. The organization (Roles containing subroles) is already there, hopefully the behavior will come. In any case, here are my replies to a couple specific comments from the last thread…

[Herb Sevush] "OK, so now I've got this copied audio, it's from a talking head clip, and it's acting as VO for a montage of action shots. Now the client wants me to break up the action shots with a little bit of the talking head video (it's very emotional, he's talking about his pet rock here). How do I "turn on" the video from this audio copy?"

I'd do it just like any other NLE. If I'm understanding you, you've got a disconnected DIA bite running under, for arguments sake, 6 action shots. You want to replace shot #3 with sync picture. So just park the playhead at the first frame of shot #3. select the audio under that frame and match back. Just like 7, it'll select the whole clip and park the playhead on the matching frame. then just hit "I", select shot 3 (or just SHIFT-CMD-A to deselect everything) and hit OPT-R. Shot 3 is replaced with pix synced to that bit of audio. Like I said, same as 7. The nice thing is you never need to click on anything, all KB shortcuts, even when selecting clips (hover pointer over clip and hit C) The not nice thing is that the "replace" command always cuts in both video *and* audio regardless of your edit type selection. This should be fixed, and I've sent feedback. So the extra step is to disconnect and delete it. 2 keystrokes.

That was a long winded description of something you know how to do I guess. :-) Point is, it's pretty much the same, and possibly quicker, than in 7. If you want, you can change the DIA connection point to link it to the sync picture and you won't lose sync.

There are a lot of complaints about the way clips are linked in X, but I think of the connection points like linking and/or grouping clips in other NLE's. Linking/grouping is just always on by default. Move a clip, the audio "linked" to it moves as well, move a group of clips, the group moves. You can override it, and it would be nice to be able to optionally link a clip to time (without the "don't cut in the primary" workaround) , or unlink it completely so it just floats if you want, but it's not really behaviorally different than "link" or "group clips".

[Chris Harlan] "Well, I'm fascinated by that. I have to clip chunks out of sentences, slide a clause a few frames this way or that under a cut-away, only to have to reconnect it in a different version of the edit. I have to retime dialog, drop in ADR, shave this way and shave that way, constantly. Me? I use sync markers and TC. How you are doing all that fine-tuning and finessing without have to separate audio from video and slide it around, I would truly like to hear."


You can't do that without separating the audio. :-) You can do leveling/extending/deleting/renaming/erassigning of audio components, but you can't cheat dialog. I mean, maybe by opening the clip in it's own timeline you could, but if you're cutting audio for a sync clip and some cutaways that won't work. That said, like you, I do that all the time. And frankly, as i've said before, it's an absolute pleasure cutting/cheating dialog in X. Having the app generate sync markers should definitely happen. I think the info is in the XML (I'm a dork, i've looked) they just need to express it the timeline. Slipping/sliding clips into sync is a feature that should come back. In any case, when working specifically with disconnected (er… connected clips in X) lol…

if I need a hard sync point (or mark) I can either move the audio connection point to the frame I want locked, or just make put a marker on the "sync" frame of the audio and video clip(s) I want to keep aligned. If I move a clause under a cutaway and need to extend the picture and put it back I'd do just what i'd do in anything else… delete the out of sync clause and extend the sync audio with the picture.
Retiming/ADR etc cuts just the same as connected clips in X as anything else. And when cheating dialog, being able to slide clips in subframe increments is a gigantic plus in X. Huge for any audio editing in X, but dialog particularly. I get angry trying to cheat stuff in other NLE's now. :-) And as to sync, once i've got my brilliant cheat cut, I'll just compound it, sometimes audio only putting the connection point on the best sync frame, or sometimes both the audio and video together. The nice thing here is that, since CC's appear in the event, and X will stick them all in a smart collection containing all CC's I've made, I can just grab and reuse them from there without hunting through a million cuts I did 2 months ago to try and find that awesome cheat that got killed in one of 10 versions of one of 10 dead spots but now they remember hearing it and want it back in but i can't remember where i did it. Bastards!

Sorry.


Anyway… sorry for the long post. Any questions? lol

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 5:37:06 am

Charlie! You're my hope, man. You've got me convinced that I'll definitely surf X one of these days. I find that Ad someone posted about an audio designer for X a hopeful thing. Sandeep posted a little primmer on channels that I quite enjoyed. Its definitely moving in the right direction for me. I can't deny that. And, I truly like reading about your adventures and methods. Color-coded roles might be enough might be enough for me to wax X up and float it on out.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 3:16:36 pm

To be clear, my answer wasn't necessarily "never disconnect".

It is really hard to explain to someone who hasn't really worked with X, but when you edit with audio components, it is really easy to select a range, copy, trim it out to "hide" it, and paste.

This adds another instance of the dialog clip where you want it and is connected to the video above it where it needs to be.

If I ever need to go back to the original sync, I simply trim it back in on the original clip non destructively.

I need to try and explain how the timeline in fcpx allows you to hold a lot of material in the timeline that you aren't using without penalty. I could show people in a few minutes, but its hard to put in to words and have people "get it". I'm not saying this as a "you just don't get it" type of way, I'm saying it as that it works in ways that I wasn't used to, and I certainly think about how to perform every day editing (like slipping dialogue) differently.

It would be nice to be able to slip audio components, but I can't, so I don't and work around it.

In the case of audio components, sync markers would be nice, but with connected clips it would be harder as the connection is the sync point.

Herb asked specifically if he had a slipped piece of audio and needed to bring back the video, how would you do it?

I find that working with multiple instances of a clip (be it audio or video or both) is the way I like to tackle it because all of my elements are in the timeline at my fingertips, which in essense, is why sync markers work so well; you can get elements back in to sync using slip or move, at any time.

In X and using multiple instances, I turn on what was off and I have my sync back (or trim in what I trimmed out). Fortunately, Fcpx is really great in its ability to turn on and off audio at will (or enable/disable as a different function as well). Unfortunately, X is not so great at turning off video only (a feature request). So, that's why I sometimes put video under the timeline as I always have the audio I need in the correct place and time, as well as the video. I wish we could turn video on and off like we can audio, but alas fcpx is still young yet. In the meantime, I try and leverage the timeline's strengths and it looks completely different from how I'd go about things in fcp7. I'm alright with that.


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John Davidson
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 6:19:40 pm

Slightly off topic, but this week we got a note about a character's voice being out of sync in a rough cut. We were all mystified because we don't typically break apart audio. We checked our comp and the clip was not in fact detached.

Turns out that whoever edited the episode delivered a final to the network with that character's bite about 6 frames offset.

They should have used FCPX :).

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 7:07:08 pm

[John Davidson] "They should have used FCPX :).
"


Perhaps they were. ;)


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 6:36:07 pm

I could be reading this wrong - but do you mean that any time you want to do this - you have to duplicate the audio?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 7:53:35 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I could be reading this wrong - but do you mean that any time you want to do this - you have to duplicate the audio?"

I think you're responding to this:

[Jeremy Garchow] "This adds another instance of the dialog clip where you want it and is connected to the video above it where it needs to be.

If I ever need to go back to the original sync, I simply trim it back in on the original clip non destructively. "


And I'll admit to being a bit confused by it, but maybe I get it now. You don't "have" to dupe the audio, you can just work with connected clips as normal but... I think he's saying that, if you need to do some dialog upcutting or whatever, rather than disconnecting the audio, simply select the range you need, copy it, disable the component channel (V) Paste the copied audio as a connected track, do whatever you want, but if you need sync audio back, or even just a sync reference, simply reenable the component channel. Essentially once you cut in pix with sync audio you never need to "match back" to get the sync sound back, it's always there. Nice trick. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 8:29:03 pm

[Charlie Austin] "And I'll admit to being a bit confused by it, but maybe I get it now. You don't "have" to dupe the audio, you can just work with connected clips as normal but... I think he's saying that, if you need to do some dialog upcutting or whatever, rather than disconnecting the audio, simply select the range you need, copy it, disable the component channel (V) Paste the copied audio as a connected track, do whatever you want, but if you need sync audio back, or even just a sync reference, simply reenable the component channel. Essentially once you cut in pix with sync audio you never need to "match back" to get the sync sound back,"

man Charlie, I don't know - this seems really arcane bandage workflow stuff - if 80-90% percent of employed editors (thats a minimum realistically) are operating on systems (avid, FCP, Premiere) that bear no resemblance to this X timeline and these kind of limitations, these kind of workarounds, what exactly is the chance of this kind of macgyver jerry rigging taking off in broad practise?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 10:39:32 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "man Charlie, I don't know - this seems really arcane bandage workflow stuff - if 80-90% percent of employed editors (thats a minimum realistically) are operating on systems (avid, FCP, Premiere) that bear no resemblance to this X timeline and these kind of limitations, these kind of workarounds, what exactly is the chance of this kind of macgyver jerry rigging taking off in broad practise?"

Well, I honestly think that what we're talking about isn't a workaround or a limitation at all. I mean, to me, the X timeline can function just like any other timeline if you want it to. In this case, you could just cut your stuff in as disconnected A/V clips and work exactly like you'd work in anything else. But, if you think you might like to have instant access to your original sync, without matching back, or clicking a sync marker or whatever you'd "normally" do, just do this one extra 2-3 keystroke operation. This isn't a workaround at all. It's a new, and pretty useful, workflow technique.

I really, to this day, don't get all the fuss about the X timeline. I'll admit that maybe sync markers would be nice for connected (disconnected) clips. Maybe. And yes, the fact that Clips/Roles don't stick together, and try to glue themselves as close to the Primary Storyline as they can *is* annoying and needs a fix of some sort. (not fixed tracks though!) :-P

At the end of the day though, now that I know it, I cut in X just the same as i do in anything else. It's just a freaking timeline. A timeline that I can just focus on cutting, and let the app figure iut some of the stuff that forces me to stop and think how to patch something. Maybe because I've cut Film, Tape to Tape, and on MC and get the gap as media idea? I dunno. You can cut like you do in 7, or use the Ripple as default MC style, or any combination you want. Once you learn the commands, which you need to do when you learn anything new, It's not limiting at all. It's not perfect either, a lot of stuff needs work, but limiting is the last word I'd use.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 11:02:32 pm

[Charlie Austin] "(not fixed tracks though!)"

I don't think X should have tracks, either. It is a big part of what it is, and I do like that there is something quite different out there. I'm more than willing to not have tracks as long as there is an adequate mapping system to replace it. Color-coded roles could be the answer. All I really want is to be able to look and see exactly where everything is without having to click things on and off. I can adjust to the vertical instability if there are strong, tangible indicators that allow for instant assessment. Purple dialog, green SFX, red MU, and blue VO would probably go a long way to making this happen. Maybe add to that a quick view where you could get a navigable snapshot of the different audio roles laid out in parallel horizontal lines (same types of audio could overlap on the same line; a blob of green just means there are sfx, and clicking on it takes me to that part of the actual timeline, not a specific sfx) and I think you would probably mollify my objections to tracklessness.


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Steve Connor
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 11:15:36 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Color-coded roles could be the answer. All I really want is to be able to look and see exactly where everything is without having to click things on and off."

I will be VERY surprised if this isn't implemented in the next feature release, I hope everyone who uses FCPX has sent their feature request in for it!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 11:36:01 pm

I, too, think color coded, sortable Roles would be cool. We've talked about the nature of "Zones".

For now, taking the time and naming audio components before editing, adding a Role once its in a timeline (unfortunately, you can't add a Role to an individual component before it hits a timeline), or viewing the timeline with Role names instead of clip names helps to discern a timeline pretty quickly.


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John Davidson
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 11:39:19 pm

Jeremy, thanks for giving me something easy to correct you on.

You cannot assign specific roles before bringing a clip into a timeline. You CAN select clips in the event browser and hit Modiby/Assign Roles and you're off to the races rolewise before a single edit is made.

Look at me, I'm smart!

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 12:03:47 am

[John Davidson] "You cannot assign specific roles before bringing a clip into a timeline. You CAN select clips in the event browser and hit Modiby/Assign Roles and you're off to the races rolewise before a single edit is made."

You can assign Roles to an entire clip before editing, yes, but you can't assign a Role to an individual audio component (channel) before it hits a timeline.

Screengrabs later.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 12:06:31 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "You can assign Roles to an entire clip before editing, yes, but you can't assign a Role to an individual audio component (channel) before it hits a timeline. "

Technically true, but if you right click an event clip and choose open in timeline, you can assign roles to that "master" clips components before you cut a frame into a sequence...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Charlie Austin
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 11:51:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "(unfortunately, you can't add a Role to an individual component before it hits a timeline),"

Oh yes you can. :-) As John said, you can of course assign a clips role in the Event. But... You can also choose "Open in Timeline" for a multichannel source that's in the Event, and assign Roles to the individual Components. Before you cut it into anything. It's very nice. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 12:17:39 am

[Charlie Austin] "Oh yes you can. :-) As John said, you can of course assign a clips role in the Event. But... You can also choose "Open in Timeline" for a multichannel source that's in the Event, and assign Roles to the individual Components. Before you cut it into anything. It's very nice. :-)"

Certainly, but I guess I consider "open in timeline" a timeline.

For instance, I can select as many clips in my browser as i want that have the same number of audio channels, decide the channel config, name the channels, and select which ones I want to use, it's awesome. I cannot, however, add a Role to each of those channels with all of those clips selected in a browser. I can add it to the entirety of the clip (which is all the channels), but not each individual channel. For that, I need a timeline.

Jeremy


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Charlie Austin
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 12:43:28 am

[Jeremy Garchow] " I cannot, however, add a Role to each of those channels with all of those clips selected in a browser. I can add it to the entirety of the clip (which is all the channels), but not each individual channel. For that, I need a timeline.
"


Ahh, gotcha... On a related note... one little can of worms that gets opened when assigning roles to components relates to our imagined Role Grouping/Color Coding workflow. That being... when using the TL index to highlight a Role.. a clip containing components of varying Roles is *always* highlighted when any Role it contains is selected. Slight annoyance there. So.. If they color code Roles.. How's that gonna work? Stripes? :-) Also, in which Role group does a multi role clip live? User selectable? Who knows.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 12:56:17 am

Stripes sounds good, yes. :)

I am ok with a clip being highlighted (highlit?) when one Role is selected but it contains multiple audio Roles. Expanding audio components would solve that.

Another thing about Roles on components is that you can have an audio role for each component, and a separate role for the clip, which can look funny in the role index as well, and cause weirdities on x2pro exports, but easy to work around.


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John Davidson
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:05:19 am

Here's a funny little thing. We totally don't care about roles anymore since X2Pro pretty much automates everything for us. I suppose if we really cared and had a huge edit we would feel more motivated to work with roles. Then again, even a sizzle that we worked on for 2 months and delivered last week - never touched a role in it.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:16:01 am

[John Davidson] "Here's a funny little thing. We totally don't care about roles anymore since X2Pro pretty much automates everything for us. I suppose if we really cared and had a huge edit we would feel more motivated to work with roles. Then again, even a sizzle that we worked on for 2 months and delivered last week - never touched a role in it."

I just want to be able to see where things are. I like to be able to navigate quickly by using the timeline as a map, so color-coding roles would give that to me.


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John Davidson
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:21:44 am

What I'd love is for roles to be automatically assigned from the media browser and take advantage of iTunes metadata. Right now it brings in all iTunes as music, which is annoying when we have our sfx libraries in there as well.

Remember when our biggest gripes were 'no broadcast monitor support?' Life could be worse :).

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:25:25 am

[John Davidson] "Remember when our biggest gripes were 'no broadcast monitor support?' Life could be worse :)."

No, hey--I agree. I'm still here and the water is definitely getting warmer. I ain't there yet, but I'm definitely convinced that there is a time I could be. It's just been a better bet for me to re-up Avid and learn Premiere in the short term. I'd be happy to have a good working excuse to learn X.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 4:12:44 am

[John Davidson] "Here's a funny little thing. We totally don't care about roles anymore since X2Pro pretty much automates everything for us. I suppose if we really cared and had a huge edit we would feel more motivated to work with roles. Then again, even a sizzle that we worked on for 2 months and delivered last week - never touched a role in it."

There's no need to touch roles once their assigned, there is a need to be able to organize them in a timeline. I mean, it may not bother you when you make a cut in a music track at the bottom of your sequence and the tail you cut off jumps all the way to the top of the screen. Or worse, cutting 2 or 3 frame bits of dialog or FX together. You may not care about that, but those that do may think Roles really need to be able to stick together, at least loosely. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 10:18:12 pm

[Charlie Austin] "the tail you cut off jumps all the way to the top of the screen. Or worse, cutting 2 or 3 frame bits of dialog or FX together. You may not care about that, but those that do may think Roles really need to be able to stick together, at least loosely. :-)"

that - in truth - would drive me a bit around the bend - I've just mucked around faking that up - there's no way to force them back into alignment is there?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 10:26:47 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that - in truth - would drive me a bit around the bend - I've just mucked around faking that up - there's no way to force them back into alignment is there?
"


Well, I usually cut DIA at the top of the timeline, so it sticks together, And if I'm chopping up MX I have a 5 min silent clip that I use as a... barrier i guess, to keep it all together at the bottom. It does require moving bits below it as needed, but once there they stay put. I can't see why they can't make 'em stick together... we'll see.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:16:45 pm

ok quite - you're a country mile beyond me in process - as I said below to garchow - I really amn't that ignorant of the software at this point.
But it's impossible to develop work process solutions when its a hobby on the side.

[Charlie Austin] "And if I'm chopping up MX I have a 5 min silent clip that I use as a... barrier i guess"

grand - so that audio slug functions as an edit length track barrier to corral nats from sync? that stuff can only bounce so much?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 3:14:35 pm

[John Davidson] "Here's a funny little thing. We totally don't care about roles anymore since X2Pro pretty much automates everything for us. I suppose if we really cared and had a huge edit we would feel more motivated to work with roles. Then again, even a sizzle that we worked on for 2 months and delivered last week - never touched a role in it."

If I don't use Roles, I can't export stems as FCPX will simply add everything in one Role to one channel.

I need Roles to keep stems separate (X2Pro treats this differently in the conversion to tracks).

Also, I am a pretty decently organized editor, and when I send my audio to post, I like to have the audio engineer see my intentions clearly.

With Roles, I can add one person to a Role instead of grouping all speaking parts to "Dialogue" and when imported to ProTools, each person gets their own track. The audio guys don't seem to mind.

To each their own workflow, but Roles work well for how we use them.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 11:33:03 pm

[Charlie Austin] " But, if you think you might like to have instant access to your original sync, without matching back, or clicking a sync marker or whatever you'd "normally" do, just do this one extra 2-3 keystroke operation. This isn't a workaround at all. It's a new, and pretty useful, workflow technique. "

mmm.

[Charlie Austin] "I'll admit that maybe sync markers would be nice for connected (disconnected) clips."

seriously - charlie - they're not nice, they're basic no?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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John Davidson
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 11:55:44 pm

Look, you guys have lots of options to Rube Goldberg X up all you like, detaching audio and doubling clips et al, but if all you're trying to do is keep video straight up with tightened audio beneath, just splice the video and audio however you'd like the audio to be, and then trim the top layer of video/audio back like it was and pretend the 2nd video clip beneath is just audio. While your mouse is on the master clip, you can either mute the top layer audio using the volume bar, trim it to where you want it coming back in, or just turn it off in the 'inssssspector (you have to say that with a lisp)'. 17 different way to accomplish the same underlying goal.

X seriously doesn't care if the clip with the cut up audio is blue with video or green with none. What better sync marker on Earth is there than the actual video attached to a clip you're treating like just audio?

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 12:09:25 am

[John Davidson] "While your mouse is on the master clip, you can either mute the top layer audio using the volume bar, trim it to where you want it coming back in, or just turn it off in the 'inssssspector (you have to say that with a lisp)'. 17 different way to accomplish the same underlying goal.

X seriously doesn't care if the clip with the cut up audio is blue with video or green with none. What better sync marker on Earth is there than the actual video attached to a clip you're treating like just audio?"


nah - come on - I mean sure, but if this is going to gain wide spread adoption, Apple are mad if they think this hodge podge of routines on a magnetic timeline is a guarantee of anything but obscurity?

we - look - we all know this software is largely dead outside this forum. you guys can say any number of things about unseen people - but we kind of really know its true.

the point is that Apple made a mis-step, they thought they could parlay a living pro-marketplace brand into whatever they liked.

that has utterly failed.

Apple's only recourse, if they value the network effect of underpinning media production (as opposed to adobe taking it) is to knuckle under, bow the knee, beg forgiveness, make tracks and homogenise their efforts to the pro market.

there are no hidden hordes coming to save them. FCPX is a dead, dead letter.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 12:54:25 am

[John Davidson] "X seriously doesn't care if the clip with the cut up audio is blue with video or green with none."

Very true but... (in my best Don LaFontaine voice...) In a World... where editors send spots out to be finished on systems that do care about such things, this could create some very... interesting results.

No? :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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John Davidson
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:00:48 am

It has no effect on pro tools for us. In actual editing though, as you saw, we do whatever we like on the creative edit and when we deliver a final we detach all audio and bring in the mix. This is the exact same process we'd do if sending to resolve or color, etc. We'd just delete the lower layers of video at that point as well. You're doing it all up front, and we're doing the same thing but at the very end of the process. I think ours has less steps, but it's your journey man ;).

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:12:25 am

[Charlie Austin] "Very true but... (in my best Don LaFontaine voice...) "

I worked with Don a little, but my "In a World..." guy was Percy Rodriguez. I worked A LOT with him. I actually did an "In a World..." trailer with Percy to Carmina Burana back in the early '90s when such things were still fresh. Yes... In a time where Carmina Burana was still fresh. I've never figured out why Don was recognized as THE VOG. I know he had a press agent, which helped. Percy was great, though, and I quite liked working with him.


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John Davidson
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:17:10 am

One time I asked Don to read so gritty he would 'make babies cry'. It came out awesome.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:22:07 am

[John Davidson] "One time I asked Don to read so gritty he would 'make babies cry'. It came out awesome.
"


The guy who could really do that was Chuck Riley. I worked with him a bunch, too. Of the main VOG's he had by far the deepest voice. Very nice guy.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:19:36 am

[Chris Harlan] "I worked with Don a little, but my "In a World..." guy was Percy Rodriguez. I worked A LOT with him. I actually did an "In a World..." trailer with Percy to Carmina Burana back in the early '90s when such things were still fresh. Yes... In a time where Carmina Burana was still fresh."

That's pretty funny, because after I wrote that I started thinking about Percy, and couldn't remember his last name. Had to Google it. Great voice, great guy. Don was really versatile, and fast. No multiple takes with him. 1 or 2, then move on.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:27:32 am

[Charlie Austin] "No multiple takes with him. 1 or 2, then move on."

Boy, and he sure got pissed if you asked for one that he didn't think was needed.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 9:50:52 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Essentially once you cut in pix with sync audio you never need to "match back" to get the sync sound back, it's always there. "

That's right.

I can keep so much information and choices stored and out of the way in X right in the timeline. It is an aspect of the X timeline that I like a lot.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 10, 2013 at 11:03:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I can keep so much information and choices stored and out of the way in X right in the timeline. It is an aspect of the X timeline that I like a lot.
"


I could certainly get to like that, too.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:22:26 am

actually wait a minute - has anyone seen this?

some of the parent child operation stuff for audio here - out of the inspector is pure mad. I really didn't fully get that half of this could go on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AaNkkTXt_ng#t=210s

this is genuinely impressive. (yes fine I should use the software properly). but from 3 minutes, to around 7-8 minutes alone are well worth watching.

It's a little bit of an eye opener.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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John Davidson
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:44:56 am

That's pretty dang cool.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 9:14:28 pm

isn't it tho? some parts of this software really does have its game on.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 1:50:42 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "actually wait a minute - has anyone seen this?"

It is much easier to understand with pictures than it is to read my babble.


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 12:51:13 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "actually wait a minute - has anyone seen this?"


You should watch all of Sam's tutorials. He has an article now also on MovieMaker about RED and FCPX (which is a bit of rehash of what he told in the Tutorials, but very interesting!).

I really like his tutorials, they are short, but very packed with good information for what often seems more high-end workflows than what the tutorials of Ripple Training or Larry Jordan tell you (with all respect to both those, I bought those as well).

Again, Apple is making huge advancements with FCPX, and anyone who still regards it as the 10.0.0 version, should really look again...
This stuff was introduced in October or November. We are March now ;-)


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 5:31:18 pm

Also know that - I don't think Sam shows this in his tutorial - is that in the Inspector, if you go to the Channel Configuration, you can skim the tracks independently. Go with your mouse over the tracks, and you hear ONLY that channel, so you can easily hear which is what (if you are checking which one was camera-audio and which one was a mic, for instance).


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 5:37:33 pm

[Mathieu Ghekiere] "Also know that - I don't think Sam shows this in his tutorial - is that in the Inspector, if you go to the Channel Configuration, you can skim the tracks independently. Go with your mouse over the tracks, and you hear ONLY that channel, so you can easily hear which is what (if you are checking which one was camera-audio and which one was a mic, for instance)."

True.

Can also be done in the timeline with "clip skimming" on which is a separate function of skimming.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 2:25:14 pm

Aindreas, thanks for posting. It was interesting indeed.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 3:15:48 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Aindreas, thanks for posting. It was interesting indeed."

I have to keep reminding myself that you guys aren't playing with the software.

I need to tailor my answers to better explain what is really going on.

Also, notice in that video around the 12 minute mark or so, what does he do? Pull the video underneath the timeline.

What a rebel.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 3:41:00 pm

I think many FCPX features are nearly impossible to describe to someone who hasn't explored a given feature. Part of the problem is that describing FCPX almost requires a new language.

I too was concerned about disconnected clips since it was a requirement for me when dealing with dual mono (or more) channels. The audio components feature came out in 10.0.6 and my need to disconnect (and therefore the desire for sync markers) declined (although could still be useful in some cases).

The problem with so many feature requests we see in this forum in which people are asking for the return of old features, doesn't take into consideration that Apple is developing entirely new ways of doing things. The Audio Components feature is one example. FCPX is still very much missing important functions but the solutions may not look like what some people are imagining.

The hardest part in persuading someone that FCPX is even worth investigating is that an experienced editor wouldn't know where to look for features like this and, not knowing they exist, may not look for them at all. Additionally someone using 10.0.5, for example, and walking away from it in frustration, may not be aware of major changes like this.



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tony west
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 7:30:52 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I think many FCPX features are nearly impossible to describe to someone who hasn't explored a given feature. Part of the problem is that describing FCPX almost requires a new language."

I was just in LA this weekend talking with an editor and describing features I like in X

It's funny, just trying to describe the skimmer to some who has never seen it feels awkward : )

She had of course, heard only bad things about the program and nothing good. She was intrigued by the things I mentioned but who knows from there.

When people ask me about it I always say, "you need to sit behind someone who knows this program really well and watch them"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 9:36:44 pm

[tony west] "When people ask me about it I always say, "you need to sit behind someone who knows this program really well and watch them""

V. true. that's why I personally found John Davidson's barrelling through promos with it an eye opener. Promos is very familiar process, and he had really worked it through in X, including all the little niceties like the GFX naming for graphics auto-tagging.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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tony west
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:42:32 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "John Davidson's barrelling through promos "


Indeed, the more people like that I see the more I feel like I have to learn on this thing : 0

Nice work on that last ad you did Brother A


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Herb Sevush
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 4:05:04 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Also, notice in that video around the 12 minute mark or so, what does he do? Pull the video underneath the timeline."

I noticed that and thought of your explanation. The other thing I noticed is that he was talking about the various problems in dealing with Multicam audio that these new features were addressing.

It looks like the only way I'm really going to figure out if X would work for me is to work with X. On the other hand I'm reluctant to invest my time in learning something that might not work out. Such is the quandry when working with outlier software. I have no such qualms when considering switching to Avid, I know it will work for me, which makes it a lot easier to switch to.

My next move is to wait and see what Apple comes out with as a MacPro replacement. While the general rule is to pick your software and then worry about the box that will run it, in this case I want to know what hardware platform I will commit to before narrowing down my choice.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 4:18:08 pm

[Herb Sevush] "My next move is to wait and see what Apple comes out with as a MacPro replacement. While the general rule is to pick your software and then worry about the box that will run it, in this case I want to know what hardware platform I will commit to before narrowing down my choice.
"


I think what Apple do with the Mac Pro replacement will be critical for wider adoption of FCPX, add to that the first point release of the software and I think it's going to be an interesting few months.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 4:20:11 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I noticed that and thought of your explanation. The other thing I noticed is that he was talking about the various problems in dealing with Multicam audio that these new features were addressing.

It looks like the only way I'm really going to figure out if X would work for me is to work with X. On the other hand I'm reluctant to invest my time in learning something that might not work out. Such is the quandry when working with outlier software. I have no such qualms when considering switching to Avid, I know it will work for me, which makes it a lot easier to switch to.

My next move is to wait and see what Apple comes out with as a MacPro replacement. While the general rule is to pick your software and then worry about the box that will run it, in this case I want to know what hardware platform I will commit to before narrowing down my choice."


All valid.

I will try and explain things better for next time and perhaps even include a screengrab or ten.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 5:44:29 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I have to keep reminding myself that you guys aren't playing with the software. "

no no - I play. Playing doesn't force you into the meat of it tho - but I do play, have quite a bit.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 7:10:52 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "no no - I play. Playing doesn't force you into the meat of it tho - but I do play, have quite a bit."

We'll call it a tinker.

Fair enough?


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Steve Connor
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 7:16:33 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "We'll call it a tinker.

Fair enough?
"


Over here in the the UK a "tinker" has a number of meanings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 8:52:11 pm

Got it.

In the game of basketball, some play a game of horse, some run full court?







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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 8:56:07 pm

FCPX is a tinker? - that's harsh steven, justified, but harsh.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 8:54:50 pm

nope - playing quite a bit thank you. we have had some pretty involved discussions about ranges and their limitations, and I've gone on about the problems with out of range keyframes at some length. including alternate mock ups. I've also mucked around extensively with CC and the editing modalities for connected clips, secondary storyline, primary. I have a pretty decent handle on this software - if someone put a gun to my head, I could execute a piece in X *fairly* comfortably.

of course, it is incredibly handy for those defending the software to their last breath to simply say of those who disagree with them - you don't know how to use it, so that invalidates you. its handy Jeremy, but it doesn't wash.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 9:20:36 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "of course, it is incredibly handy for those defending the software to their last breath to simply say of those who disagree with them - you don't know how to use it, so that invalidates you. its handy Jeremy, but it doesn't wash."

Meh.

I said in a previous post that this was not a pile on to those who haven't used it.

I said that I need to do better in explaining features as if people had never seen them before.

I had assumed everyone had seen audio component editing since it was the first feature in the 10.0.6 release notes.

I will do better next time.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 9:32:07 pm

ha. right. and a meh to you too garchow :)

I have seen audio components mate, I did engage with the borg on them when I downloaded .6 it was nice to see them, but - as ever - unless you are using the software in anger under the gun, desperation won't drive you to discover real process - that would be where the no jobs issue rears its ugly head.

As we have discussed before - the fact that this software sits in a dead ether of being completely unused by the vast majority of editors and houses and production companies that employ editors, even the real gems will lie at the bottom of the ocean.

meh indeed....

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 9:35:25 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "the fact that this software sits in a dead ether of being completely unused by the vast majority of editors"

and you're still around kicking the corpse

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 9:38:07 pm

only to watch you all scrabbling around trying to keep it alive. It's.. entertaining.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bernard Newnham
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 10:36:32 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "only to watch you all scrabbling around trying to keep it alive. It's.. entertaining."

Yes - I keep coming back for the same reason.

Someone the other day was singing the praises of the Quantel Harry three strip editor. I don't know if it was good or not. It may have been the best ever - I never operated it, just had people do stuff for me. Whatever - where is it now? The world stuck with Avid style timelines, and that was that. I think the same will happen here.

And I don't understand what people are on about when they talk about "what Apple will do with the MacPro replacement". It's a PC for goodness sake, which runs a different, Unix based operating system. Unless they go ARM (good for my shares in the company), the new one will be like the old one but faster.

If they bother.

Bernie


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Craig Seeman
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 10:49:54 pm

[Bernard Newnham] "And I don't understand what people are on about when they talk about "what Apple will do with the MacPro replacement"."

It's Xeon (I suspect) with Thunderbolt. That's not in any PC.
Also how they handle the GPU will be interested as it may not be quite the same as how the ASUS motherboard handles it.



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Bernard Newnham
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:12:13 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It's Xeon (I suspect) with Thunderbolt. That's not in any PC."

I think that may be because current Xeons are quite old. The PC market changes by the day, so if Asus or whoever think they can make money out of some new Xeon and Thunderbolt they'll build the boards pretty much instantly.

Bernie


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Craig Seeman
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:13:43 pm

Current Xeons old?
Not the Ivy Bridge Xeons.



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Bernard Newnham
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 12, 2013 at 8:04:11 am

[Craig Seeman] "It's Xeon (I suspect) with Thunderbolt. That's not in any PC."

[Steve Connor] "[Bernard Newnham] "which runs a different, Unix based operating system"

Which a lot of us like

[Bernard Newnham] "the new one will be like the old one but faster.
"
Let's hope so"


I'm not that knowledgeable about i7s and Xeons, so I've looked around. It seems that Xeons are the fastest of the Core i processors on test - out of the "top bin" apparently. They are locked - no overclocking - and support ecc memory. They're then marketed for servers, machines that run on full 24/7. People who've tested them say there's little difference between them and Core i7 apart from ecc support, but they cost lots more. If you really want Thunderbolt, Asus sell a PCIe card, but generally people don't seem to.

Maybe I should go into business building to spec PCs. I can make one that goes faster than any MacPro, and when the new chips come out, match any future PC variant just by buying the same stuff. I could even put them in shiny boxes and make them "reassuringly expensive" as Stella Artois used to say. Buy your own OSX of course - don't want to get sued.

Bernie


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Craig Seeman
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 12, 2013 at 2:45:08 pm

Xeons also allow for multiple processors. This is important for those who need more than 4 or 6 cores. That would be high speed rendering and compression amongst other things or those that run multiple demanding programs.

It's possible that Apple may handle some motherboard aspects in some unique ways. With Intel announcing they're going to wind down their own motherboard design, that's even more likely. I doubt Apple will be buying their motherboards from companies like Asus or MSI.

One thing I'm guessing on is a much better integrated GPU than what Asus is using for example. I'm thinking one might have an option to buy a new MacPro without a 16x GPU card. That would be a server model. At the same time it would allow someone a lower entry price point. Also freeing the 16x GPU from "monitor duty" could mean a bit more resources for GPU intensive tasks. Obviously this is all speculative but these will be some of the reasons why one might buy a new MacPro over trying to build the equivalent.



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Steve Connor
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:13:37 pm

[Bernard Newnham] "which runs a different, Unix based operating system"

Which a lot of us like

[Bernard Newnham] "the new one will be like the old one but faster.
"


Let's hope so

[Bernard Newnham] "If they bother."

It's already well documented that they are


[Bernard Newnham] "[Aindreas Gallagher] "only to watch you all scrabbling around trying to keep it alive. It's.. entertaining."

Yes - I keep coming back for the same reason."


The FCPX Techniques forum is very entertaining too, It's not busy over there at all!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:49:47 pm

[Bernard Newnham] "The world stuck with Avid style timelines, and that was that. I think the same will happen here."

I'm inclined to think so too, but there should be a few laments - this video is worth watching -







three minutes in is pretty interesting, and it largely keeps going - the interplay of the audio inspector architecture to the audio assets it can in multiple represent is pretty remarkable, and when he starts throwing the pro-level EQ software apple have lying around as paste attributes on the fourteen minute mark is arresting.
One thing you can't argue about is that apple have wedged pretty deadly serious audio adjustment into the software.

Also the CC and power masks are - really not in any way messing around. The power masks, with stacked effects, are a literal dream in operation at 1080P on bog standard iMac hardware. Go into an apple store - stack it up - its surreal.

that said - the timeline is a bag of distressed cats.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:14:20 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "only to watch you all scrabbling around trying to keep it alive. It's.. entertaining.
"


As you used to be

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:29:35 pm

steven you wound me. you wound me sir. Sure that nearly felt like an attack on the poster. Crassly belittling them to entertainment value.

Shocking steven, just shocking. I may pick up my pen.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 12, 2013 at 12:26:19 am

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'll red card myself

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Richard Herd
Re: Editing Disconnected Audio
on Mar 12, 2013 at 4:26:20 am

If you don't like it, why do you keep playing with it? I like mine a lot. And I play with it. I even invite others to play with it too.


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