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NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns

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TImothy Auld
NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:07:32 pm

Talk about missing the point(s)

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/professional-video-editors-weigh-...


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Jamie Franklin
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:17:24 pm

Oh no...have mercy on him. He just asked for it lol

Some of his points are "ok" but he really needs to just stop at - "I wrote my review from the perspective of an advanced amateur; I’m not a professional editor."

Ya...we know.

I find it interesting that he starts with this: In 10 years of writing Times columns, I’ve never encountered anything quite like this.

And what does THAT tell you? No matter how you spin it...obviously it didn't say much to him since we're the ones supposedly not getting it and are wrong...


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Jamie Franklin
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:23:08 pm

I have to say, after sitting with what he said for 5mins, I can't believe the temerity of this

Professional editors should (1) learn to tell what’s really missing from what’s just been moved around, (2) recognize that there’s no obligation to switch from the old program yet, (3) monitor the progress of FCP X and its ecosystem, and especially (4) be willing to consider that a radical new design may be unfamiliar, but may, in the long term, actually be better.

Honestly? Could a writer/review/response be more patronizing and ignorant....?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:33:01 pm

Call me naive, but I have to say reading it and having digested his claim not to be an editor other than of his son's school projects, it looks to me like his well-rehearsed answers were fed to him by someone far more knowledgeable. This couldn't perhaps be an Apple press department doing its job, could it? Or is that overly cynical?

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Bret Williams
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:37:19 pm

I don't think apple would've told him there was no omf export. No, I think it reads like someone that doesn't know what he's saying, but what he's saying was from his own research that he didn't quite understand.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:42:42 pm

[Bret Williams] "I think it reads like someone that doesn't know what he's saying"

I disagree - there was so much talk of "Apple is planning this, that and the other" for me to read it as anything other than an Apple-placed piece. Especially the incredibly arrogant dismissal of the entire editing community in the last paragraph!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the guy's writing this purely as a journalist, he's a damn fine one, is all I can say. He does actually have a lot of "good" (as in plausible, well-considered) answers rather than merely stupid ones, even if there are some small errors of fact.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jamie Franklin
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:39:47 pm

It's complete spin. You aren't being cynical. HE is being cynical. Telling it like it is is reality, telling you reality is wrong and everything is going to be all right, now THAT is cynical...


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:46:49 pm

It seems to me from this:

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2011/06/23/its-amazingly-cheap-so-why-is-final...

... that Apple are trying like crazy to brief mainstream journalists with the story that all pro editors are unhinged and/or unreasonable!

Stop it, Apple - you're just looking silly now and I'm sure you don't really want that!!!!!

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Ted Levy
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:36:01 pm

In a word....no!


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Mark Ziekert
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:47:52 pm

helping my son with a 20-minute final eighth-grade project.

Naturally this guy has no clue. But only in the same way that sportswriters aren't quarterbacks, crime reporters aren't cops ect. He's the compiler of other people's "facts". He sounded pretty confident about no OMF export in FCP 7.

I'm more curious who's pushing this guy on stage dodge vegetables.


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samir kassab
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:51:06 pm

good lord have mercy on us!I'm reading it and it physically hurts me!


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Bret Williams
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:33:22 pm

Wow. Really shows how little he knows about the subject at hand. Comments like "editors feel tvs offer better color fidelity" are ridiculous. They display video. Computer monitors do not display video.

He also has a few other errors like "the old version didn't export OMF either". Pardon?


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TImothy Auld
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:50:41 pm

His article is also filled with "Apple says..." references. Unless I have missed it Apple
has made no official (or even unofficial) comment on this situation.

bigpine


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:00:16 pm

[TImothy Auld] "His article is also filled with "Apple says..." references. Unless I have missed it Apple
has made no official (or even unofficial) comment on this situation."


I think you're absolutely right about this - these are things we surely haven't heard anywhere else and yet he is happy to trot out these statements as though they were self-evident fact.

Shameless spin, in my view.

I don't actually feel strongly about the product either way (it's frankly neither awesome nor awful which is pretty damning after all the hype) but I am utterly contemptuous of the way Apple has tried to spin its way out of this. I hope more of the mainstream press picks up on how badly this has damaged the company's credibility - and that the stock value takes an appropriate bashing. Sorry to any of you with Apple stock!

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Craig Wall
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:07:00 pm

Simon, if you think Apple's stock is taking a dive over this you are utterly mistaken.

Apple knows its business. They calculated the collateral damage of losing the high end video market and decided to roll with it anyway.

Life is full of funny particles.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:19:06 pm

[Craig Wall] "if you think Apple's stock is taking a dive over this you are utterly mistaken."

No, I know it won't much much of a dent - just hoping really! Though like any corporation it matters to them a great deal what gets printed on the business pages and who knows this might have some small impact on the stock price - for a day or two!

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Adam McCune
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:55:55 pm

I own three shares, and judging by how many more people will buy this who are NOT pros, I would think that stock would go up...either that, or everyone is complaining about a phone manufacturer's video editing product.

Writer/Radio host/Community Media Advocate


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:02:48 pm

[Adam McCune] " I would think that stock would go up"

I'm not a financial expert but the stock doesn't go up or down depending on how many units of a particular product are sold, it goes up or down based on the market's view of how well a particular corporation is performing in the market place and one of the biggest barometers for that is the court of public opinion especially as expressed through the financial papers and similar forums. On that basis Apple could be taking a bit of a knock this week, though there is no doubt that they will have bounced back by Monday with some thrilling announcement about a pretty new mobile phone!

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Adam McCune
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:11:27 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] " one of the biggest barometers for that is the court of public opinion especially as expressed through the financial papers and similar forums"

Right. Which is what I was saying. If this app is for mass appeal, then more people will download it.

Think of this - at 1/3 the price, if four times as many people can (and probably eventually will..) use it, then they just made a fantastic business decision...hence my line.

Doesn't sit well with the pros on here, but I think that is the reality. This is Final Cut ProSumer.

Writer/Radio host/Community Media Advocate


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:16:02 pm

[Adam McCune] "Which is what I was saying"

I'm obviously not expressing it clearly - the financial papers will have picked up that the professional editing community is in an unprecedented uproar and this will impact, however minimally, on Apple's market position. One of the main reasons (perhaps the only reason!) Apple are in the NLE business at all is to garner the credibility that attaches to its "Hollywood" credentials - this again is all about Wall Street and nothing to do with units shipped.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Adam McCune
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:19:24 pm

I see what your saying, but share price is more directly related, in the long term, to the bottom line. There will be some knee-jerk reactions that might take the stock down temporarily, but it will recover.

Apple leveraged that "pro" perception people have about their product and made it for mass appeal. In your eyes it's dumbed-down, but to a general consumer, they can actually edit a project without looking like iMovie and without it being intimidating.

I think they have spoken - Apple doesn't care about the pro market. They are interested in creating a new one (see also: iphone/ipod/ipad)

Writer/Radio host/Community Media Advocate


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Jamie Franklin
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:05:58 pm

[Bret Williams] "Wow. Really shows how little he knows about the subject at hand. Comments like "editors feel tvs offer better color fidelity" are ridiculous. They display video. Computer monitors do not display video."

Apple has said it's just an extension...

Ya, no marching orders from Apple. He just doesn't understand the subject he was paid to write about...


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:11:36 pm

[Jamie Franklin] "He just doesn't understand the subject he was paid to write about..."

With respect to everyone here, I have seen only far weaker answers posted here than this guy makes to all the objections. I'm not saying his answers are entirely accurate (he's a journalist, right? and he can't transcribe a press release properly or take proper notes at a briefing whichever it is) but they are detailed and precise and "to the point".

None of the talented Apple apologists on this forum have had anything like as much ammunition to throw back into the battle.

OK, so he misheard the point about OMF export, I don't think that proves a thing.

Hateful all the same!

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jamie Franklin
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:21:34 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "
OK, so he misheard the point about OMF export, I don't think that proves a thing."


It wasn't the "only" point. As expressed further by 2 other posts here. Including the one you responded to. And it glaringly omitted basic realities...whatever though. His last paragraph was shameless and to the point alright...


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Matthew Glasser
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:26:49 pm

I wonder how Mr. Pogue would feel if they replaced the existing NYT's computer system with one that prevented him from sending his copy to his editor or to the layout department. Don't worry David, you can edit and layout the paper using NYT Pro X. You don't need those other guys. You can't print the paper anymore but hey you can post your article directly to facebook.

I think it's the tone of the piece that is rubbing people the wrong way. Pogue seems to think that the professional community has no real reason to gripe or to be upset. Some of his answers are technically correct and others are just plain wrong or spin. Those points have already been well covered in this forum and by people who know much more about editing than Mr. Pogue.

My biggest problem with his last two articles is that he seems to be echoing the attitude of Apple. I resent the notion that I am just being lazy, scared, etc for not wanting to make a change or that we don't really need those "old" features because this is the future. Professional editors in TV and film can't wait years for the emergence of the basic features we currently rely on. There is too much at stake for our work and businesses. If Apple wants to try something new, that's fine. Give it a shot. But don't discontinue the current product the day of the release. You don't remove key features without a timeline for replacing them and then tell us we can no longer buy the older version.


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TImothy Auld
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:42:48 pm

This guy works for arguably the most influential publication in this country. They are supposed to
be unbiased. Let him know what you think!

mail@davidpogue.com

Let the managing editor know what you think:

nytnews@nytimes.com

If you can find an email address for the publisher, let him/her know too.

bigpine


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TImothy Auld
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:17:15 pm

Jamie,

Did you happen to notice the newspaper he works for? It's distribution? It's influence?
Let's leave the understanding of errors to lesser publications.

bigpine


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Craig Wall
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:26:04 pm

David Pogue has sold more than a few books promoting and educating people about low-end Macintosh applications (like iLife).

So consider the source and his motivations.

Life is full of funny particles.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:32:26 pm

[Craig Wall] "So consider the source and his motivations"

Absolutely - I'd say "consider the source" in this case means the Apple PR department's gospel filtered through some pretty shoddy journalism.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Adam McCune
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:25:41 pm

Shoddy journalism?

I think it's pretty lame to toss a jab his way on a different forum and not let him defend himself. I'm a writer and I know that if someone complains - even if that complaint isn't founded in fact - I respond to them. Granted, I don't write a column in the NY Times, but still...

How would you feel if he started critiquing your work?

Writer/Radio host/Community Media Advocate


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TImothy Auld
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:46:04 pm

Adam,

I emailed Mr. Pogue directly after both his first FCP X article and its most recent follow-up. So I am not,
as you charge, attacking him in the dark, unawares on some nameless, faceless forum that Mr. Pogue
would never possibly think to look at for criticism of his work.

As for how I would feel if someone started criticizing my work? Good God man, do you what business I'm in? My work is criticized constantly. Get a grip.

bigpine


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Adam McCune
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:07:22 pm

Sorry, I wasn't aiming that at you, Tim.

I don't like calling anything "shoddy journalism" which was said by others. I don't feel comfortable with that kind of thing, especially on a forum. I think that's fair

Writer/Radio host/Community Media Advocate


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Mark Ziekert
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:32:43 pm

I agree with Simon that at least it DOES sound different than anything else in the boards/media. But I stand by my earlier point (which was in fact missing a preposition, thank you), that Pogue's article is a pretty trojan horsey. I would just like to know who's inside the horsey.

When he follows "I’ve never encountered anything quite like this." with the assumptive "Apple has followed the typical Apple sequence:" , it means someone is in the horsey.


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Chris Walsh
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:49:37 pm

The accompanying video is my favorite part! I've watched Pogue's video podcasts on Tivo for a while -- they're as informative as they are deliberately corny.

Apparently from the video, FCP X will solve all my problems! Except giving me a new alternative for the old imovie '06 or '08 "Break Beat" stock track - a great track, but ever since it showed up in a Happy Meal toy it's a bit too much.

Best of all, FCP X is only $300!

His podcast and written response were prepared with lots of helpful advice, some had to be from Apple's PR rep or an outside firm.

Chris Walsh

http://www.musicfog.com
Silver Spring, MD
Final Cut & AVID MC5
Former Windows User and edit* lover


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Jim Giberti
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:57:40 pm

What I can't fathom is how so many people are so filled with outrage that they can't see see the obvious good in this article.

First he acknowledges the obvious - he's not qualified to discuss pro editing with many of the pros that reside here.

Then he makes a few very important disclosures about Apple's priorities that should, in fact, be comforting to the pros currently feeling disenfranchised by X.

As I've said and I'll bet again here, the key shortcomings will be addressed in a not far off upgrade. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few small patches roll out in the coming months.

And regarding schill talk and all the rest. It's just getting old, obsessive even.

This isn't a conspiracy, it's new piece of software. It definitely changes some conventions and if you don't like the change then it's time to move on, but Apple simply isn't abandoning the market.

I don't think there's any question that they know which major issues need to be addressed first and they're simply not stupid people. Give them a little credit and time to evolve this.

Again I've got 7 and X running on my systems. It's all good here.
They allowed for that intentionally you know?

And if you don't think that David P has been in direct communication with Apple over these issues, then you don't know much about how this stuff works. He just gave you some important info.

One last thing, he was absolutely right in pointing out that some first responses (from a few of the respected members here as well) are proven untrue with a little more knowledge of the software and paradigm.

It's why it's always better to drink less coffee and have a little more bud.

Please, I know it's hard but try and refrain from "fanboy" responses.


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TImothy Auld
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:38:00 pm

Jim,

If he's not qualified to discuss pro editing then he shouldn't be writing reviews about it.

If he's making "disclosures" about Apple's supposed priorities then he seems to be doing so
without their knowledge. I know of not one statement, official or otherwise, that Apple has
made about this situation. Perhaps you can point me toward one.

Let them evolve? I don't even know what that means. They have removed functionality and
want people to pay for that. They have end of lifed a system that many have invested tens
of thousands of dollars in. Let them evolve? How about expecting them to provide a working
product?

Exactly what information has he given me that is helpful?

Exactly what information has he proven wrong?

And for those of us who just don't understand the way things work, why has Apple chosen
to communicate with Mr. Pogue (according to you and clearly unofficially) and not with anyone
else?

I also notice you just joined this forum on the very day the FCP X was released.

bigpine


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Jim Giberti
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 24, 2011 at 12:01:27 am

Timothy I think my response is reasonable and I'm comfortable with the points I made.

I am, however uncomfortable with your last statement.

Is there something that I'm not aware of regarding when someone chooses to join a forum?
I've seen these, frankly, cheesey quasi-indictments about a few others who joined the forum this week.

If you'd like to compare credentials or something I'd be happy to do that with you in an email.

If it makes you more comfortable that I'm not a spy or something I'm owner and creative director of a pretty accomplished creative firm.

I've been invited as a guest speaker in a number of arenas from marketing and branding to technology.
We pioneered the use of still lenses with the Mini 35 systems before there was DSLR shooting and we were first adopters of FC V.1 and have run it for over a decade on dozens of systems.

A lot of the pros here are familiar with me and my work.
I just never took the time to join this forum but have regularly enjoyed the information and discussion from the intelligent members and contributors.

Would you prefer I not post my thoughts?
Am I not qualified in your opinion?


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TImothy Auld
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 24, 2011 at 12:32:33 am

Jim,

I do not need to compare credentials with you.

You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to disagree with it.

Whether or not I think you are qualified to comment is irrelevant.

Again: Exactly what information has Mr. Pogue given me that is helpful? Exactly what information has he
proven wrong? And what evidence do you have (aside from your apparent certitude that you "know how these things work" that Mr. Pogue has been in direct communication with Apple? Can you point me toward any statement, any attributed communication whatsoever, that Apple has made on this subject?

bigpine


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Jim Giberti
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 24, 2011 at 12:57:56 am

Timothy,
You wrote a post directly to me (I wasn't addressing you in particular in my post) and you, in fact, ended that post with statement that you noticed that I had just joined the forum.

I notice that you didn't apologize or explain why you would take that attitude with another forum member.

Was there a point to that closing statement?
How about we address that if we're going to talk with respect to each other?

Then I'd be glad to share my thoughts and reasoning directly with you.


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TImothy Auld
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 24, 2011 at 1:02:22 am

I guess then that I will have to get by without your thoughts and reasoning. I wish you all the best.

bigpine


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Jim Giberti
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 24, 2011 at 1:19:58 am

I wish you the best too Timothy.


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Adam McCune
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 24, 2011 at 1:51:17 am

Aaaaaanndd scene. Beautiful, gentlemen, just great. Nailed it.

;)

Writer/Radio host/Community Media Advocate


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Stuart Smith
Re: NYT reporter Pogue responds to pros concerns
on Jun 24, 2011 at 6:03:19 pm

first post to the X forum

between the ridiculous conspiracy theorists and the signal to noise ratio, before and after the release, whats the point?

but that was fantastic, well played


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