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Aindreas Gallagher
dynamic trimming.
on Feb 26, 2013 at 11:15:48 pm

mostly I'm just sitting in my FCP7 potty, occasionally changing my nappy, but I've started to play half properly with PPro 6 - I'm beginning to think that dynamic trimming is pretty important. using it across a section of cuts feels different to how I worked - mostly shifting and mouse trimming block objects - in 7.

I always poo poo-d avid, because I felt I could get away with it, given FCP classic was winning my space and I knew it, but I'm beginning to think that the kind of feel/analysis available in dynamic trim is not exactly what I'm used to - it feels closer to the cuts? In my messing around, it doesn't replace my previous methodology, but it is a very interesting space to enter.

to X guys - I seem to remember Jeremy saying he finds quite similar stuff - I can't replicate the experience in X myself - to older Avid hands: how important do you find this stuff? I'm beginning to think live JKL trimming is a thing.

that said: client allowing, I'm cutting the next bit in PPro. It really does feel past time. It's flat out very good editing software.
And the London winds are beginning to blow quite hard in its direction.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Neil Goodman
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 12:13:11 am

after using Avid's trim tool for years, its really frustrating to have trim any other way and once you get used to "rock & roll" style trimming, you notice jsut how organic your cuts become.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 12:20:41 am

ok quite. I'm inclined to think that it is a pretty substantive layer to editing process. It feels very nice.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 3:12:12 am

It's hard to explain.

Rock and roll is cool. Adobe's done a nice job.

With FCPX, the timeline itself is dynamic, therefore trimming is always somewhat dynamic (unless you don't want it to be). I use the mouse significantly less in X than I did in 7. It is much more fluid and dynamic than 7.

Unfortunately, we don't get a two up unless you use the mouse, but when trimming an in or out point, the viewer is updated in real time.

Top and tails in FCPX is a dream.

The precision editor along with clip skimming allows you to see the media above and below your current cut if you'd like, and then extend or retract the edit to a specific point.


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David Powell
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 6:06:01 am

I think "dynamic" is a specific term describing real time trimming with "jkl". Top and tail has been in Avid since long ago. I think its somewhat of a mistake to compare trimming in X to 7 since A. 7 isn't a player going forward and b. The trimming in 7 was (is) awful. The proper comparison imo would be to Avid and PP. Less clicking from 7 to X perhaps but far more than Avid. I've yet to use PP so I can't comment on it.

Top tail is only a "dream" in X if you're working on a flat primary storyline. Because there are no tracks, one must always go back to the mouse, select the layer and then top tail edit. This is my main bone to pick with X is that I can't select various layers from the keyboard to trim. Its all done from the mouse, so I've mapped all the hotkeys to the left hand side so that my right hand is always on the mouse. Funny enough I learned that from "Avid Agility."


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 1:19:27 pm

[David Powell] "This is my main bone to pick with X is that I can't select various layers from the keyboard to trim"

It's my long standing gripe too.

My alternative is to hover over the clip and press c. It's easier and somehow faster than clicking for some reason. C, colon, left bracket "c : [" in quick succession selects a clip, goes to the edit point, and selects the right edge of the clip. Then comma/period. Another gripe I have is that if a clip is selected, why can't I select the edge with a bracket key? What can't hitting that bracket key select the appropriate edge and move the playhead for me?

[David Powell] "I think "dynamic" is a specific term describing real time trimming with "jkl"."

To me, dynamic means playing clips and trimming in real time and then having the timeline adjust in real time. X certainly has this function. Select a cut point, hit shift-/, make sure looping is on, and trim. There's no two up, though.

Top and tail is a separate function, yes, but it works really well in X combined with the dynamic (aka magnetic) timeline and can be done while playing.

Then there's the precision editor which adds a different level of real time trimming feedback. I'm not saying is a better level, just different.

As compared to 7, X is much more fluid.


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Steve Connor
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 4:41:57 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "To me, dynamic means playing clips and trimming in real time and then having the timeline adjust in real time. X certainly has this function. Select a cut point, hit shift-/, make sure looping is on, and trim. There's no two up, though. "

Didn't realise you could do this in FCPX!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 5:01:30 pm

[Steve Connor] "Didn't realise you could do this in FCPX!"

It's really similar to Pr in that when you hit "play around", you only get one window.

You can then nudge the cut point (audio/video, both depending on what you select) with comma/period, shift-x to extend/retract an edit to the playhead or skimmer.

If you then grab and drag the cut point, you get a two up. You can do this to ripple each side or roll the cut point.

It's not the piano, more like a harpsichord.


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Kevin Monahan
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 7:33:23 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Top and tails in FCPX is a dream."
You have this in Premiere Pro CS6 now, as well. See "Ripple Trim to Playhead" in the keyboard shortcuts dialog box.

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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David Lawrence
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 8:11:22 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The precision editor along with clip skimming allows you to see the media above and below your current cut if you'd like, and then extend or retract the edit to a specific point."

Does anyone actually use the "precision editor" on a regular basis?

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 8:15:51 pm

[David Lawrence] "Does anyone actually use the "precision editor" on a regular basis?"

Not to trim really, but I do use it to peek at clip heads and tails, which is a really nice feature.


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David Lawrence
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 8:24:57 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Not to trim really, but I do use it to peek at clip heads and tails, which is a really nice feature."

Thanks, I can see how that might be useful.

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Steve Connor
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 8:44:33 am

[Neil Goodman] "after using Avid's trim tool for years, its really frustrating to have trim any other way and once you get used to "rock & roll" style trimming, you notice jsut how organic your cuts become."

Are you saying that dynamic trimming makes your finished edits better?

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 10:49:52 am

baiting, defensive, passive aggressive comment from X proponent - or to put it another way - par for the course.

you should try it out Steve, you're messing around in PPro too - set up a dummy timeline and muckabout - its very interesting and good.
Dynamic trimming is a thing.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 3:45:03 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "baiting, defensive, passive aggressive comment from X proponent - or to put it another way - par for the course.

you should try it out Steve, you're messing around in PPro too - set up a dummy timeline and muckabout - its very interesting and good.
Dynamic trimming is a thing."


Steady your dogs Gallagher I think It's a very good thing, it makes the edit process faster and easier, I would be very happy for FCPX to have it, however the idea that it somehow makes your edits better is bull plop

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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David Lawrence
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 4:58:17 pm

[Steve Connor] "I would be very happy for FCPX to have it, however the idea that it somehow makes your edits better is bull plop"

You should try it Steve. Maybe your edits will start getting better! ;)

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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 28, 2013 at 8:32:46 pm

I think it allows a space for rapid in context iteration and analysis? It just feels like a concentrated space to consider the moment? Like ring a bell pause to noodle with the edit moment in motion?

that said - as jeremy points out - you can get some of the way there in X - not all the way really, but some.

As someone who was wilfully ignorant from 7 days, I just found the methodology and space allowed by dynamic trimming, as implemented in PPro, a *bit* of an eyeopener. I'm very used to physical pause adjustments and playback - and I'm OK at it too - there is, as you say, bull plop to any claim that the editor's eye is fundamentally altered by the provision of dynamic trimming - but it does feel like a very nice gear assembly on a more expensive bike: its the kind of thing you can live without, but I think its likely a bit of a pain to not have it once you have developed edit habits including its use.

in short: me likee.

Also - seriously - has anyone really tried the warp stabiliser here, because that thing is crazy good. I mean outright surreal good.

The shots it has saved for me....

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 28, 2013 at 8:39:58 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Also - seriously - has anyone really tried the warp stabiliser here, because that thing is crazy good. I mean outright surreal good. "

Used it on a shot last week, it's stunning!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 28, 2013 at 9:35:10 pm

I keep meaning to post a before and after side by side of a warp stabilized shot we used on some octocopter drone shots.

It went from unusable to gimbaled in no time. It kinda blew my mind a bit.


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David Lawrence
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 28, 2013 at 9:51:04 pm

[Steve Connor] "[Aindreas Gallagher] "Also - seriously - has anyone really tried the warp stabiliser here, because that thing is crazy good. I mean outright surreal good. "

Used it on a shot last week, it's stunning!"


If you guys like Warp Stabilizer, you owe it yourselves to try Core Melt's Lock & Load X. Free demo, well worth the $99 and works in AE, Pr, and FCPX. Don't get me wrong, I think Warp Stabilizer is awesome. But believe it or not, Lock & Load is even awesomer! Really!

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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 28, 2013 at 10:17:02 pm

for god's sake please don't muddy the message - I'm using WS to push broad scale PPro adoption.

Did you not get the memo?? Last week's FCPX black flag meeting at white sands? Billl Davies was there.

Wait what did I say. Bill Davies is a stalwart proponent of FCPX. there.. are no triple agents.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Lawrence
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 28, 2013 at 10:23:47 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "or god's sake please don't muddy the message - I'm using WS to push broad scale PPro adoption.

Did you not get the memo?? Last week's FCPX black flag meeting at white sands? Billl Davies was there.

Wait what did I say. Bill Davies is a stalwart proponent of FCPX. there.. are no triple agents."


LOL! Alrighty then, Warp Stabilizer FTW! :)

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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 28, 2013 at 10:41:42 pm

some people I swear... ;)

sheriously though - adobe boffins directed towards the NLE pretty full bore, with media content delivery spoils at issue - is a *pretty fab* idea.

plus - they're not a willy wonka apple secrets factory, haven't been for years.

we all know they're working on stitching IV breaks for instance. It looks to be coming along pretty good too.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Shawn Miller
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 28, 2013 at 9:42:41 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Also - seriously - has anyone really tried the warp stabiliser here, because that thing is crazy good. I mean outright surreal good."

Yes, I first started to rely on it in AE. When Adobe added it to PPro, I was over the moon. You're right, WS is insanely good.

Shawn



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 28, 2013 at 10:08:07 pm

there is a brilliant IV out there (somewhere) maybe PVC?? where they 20 minute interview the guys about the R+D that went into Warp Stabiliser.

Its flat out stunning. The kind of calculation fallback scenarios they built in from the full blown planar analysis it is doing on parallax is just mind bending.

the coptor shots I got for a BTS car thing - its crazy what it could do with the info coming in - ditto dodgy dollys on a heavy camera for sony product shots.

IMHO - in software, Adobe have real, absolute, swiss watchmaker moments.

I've said this before - but if the market provides them shareholder revenue focus on non-linear editing - which is happening, we could end up with some incredibly serious stuff.
Adobe have boffins people. Basic R+D boffins coming out of their behinds.

the implications of adobe anywhere are being investigated and absorbed by some pretty serious bods in London right now. I'm not even fully sure I get it on the ground as to how it actually plays out, but there is no way that adobe are not attempting to implement broad scale use. The impact for even small to mid range facilities is meant to be substantial.

Adobe appropriating resources to bear down directly on the NLE, with market reward, is a really, really, really good idea.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Lawrence
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Mar 1, 2013 at 12:14:37 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I think it allows a space for rapid in context iteration and analysis? It just feels like a concentrated space to consider the moment? Like ring a bell pause to noodle with the edit moment in motion?"

This.

For me, this way of working did change my way of seeing; and that new way of seeing made me a better overall editor, even when I use a mouse instead of the keyboard. I don't think you need to dynamically trim to be a great editor, but I do think dynamically trimming can change how you see and how you think. Of course, YMMV.

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John Pale
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 3:27:17 pm

Most definitely.

It's the difference between playing a piano and typing.


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Neil Goodman
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 4:01:50 pm

[Steve Connor] "Are you saying that dynamic trimming makes your finished edits better?"

i think they would come out the same either way, at the end of the day my eyes and ears are the final judge. It just makes editing more interactive for me, it feels alot more natural.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Charlie Austin
Re: dynamic trimming.
on Feb 27, 2013 at 4:55:35 pm

[Neil Goodman] "[Steve Connor] "Are you saying that dynamic trimming makes your finished edits better?"

i think they would come out the same either way, at the end of the day my eyes and ears are the final judge. It just makes editing more interactive for me, it feels alot more natural.
"


That's exactly how I feel about cutting in X. I rarely use the mouse when cutting and trimming. I think JKL trimming is quite nice, but - and this is obviously personal preference - I work faster without it. Totally subjective of course. Other than the shortcomings discussed above, dynamic (KB) trimming in X works as well for me as anything comparable. And clip skimming/cutting is an enormous time saver, despite needing an input device to utilize it. Anyway... Not arguing that one is better than the other, it's all about what works for a particular editor...

Honestly, a huge plus for me when I cut in X is using KB shortcuts to manipulate audio. I really miss the flexibility when Im cutting in something else. Adjusting clip levels, slipping/sliding/trimming in subframe increments, soloing, muting etc. I feel like I might as well be wearing mittens doing that stuff in other NLE's. 7 and MC are OK, Pr falls flat on it's face though for me.

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