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Tom Sefton
Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 5:59:49 pm

Is there any way to get thunderbolt to work with a post 2009 mac pro?

If not, how likely is it that thunderbolt will ever appear on the new mac pro machine?


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 6:02:35 pm

I would say that Thunderbolt is guaranteed to be on the new Professional Mac

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 6:14:35 pm

Agreed. They won't be releasing a new MacPro without Thunderbolt.



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Dan Stewart
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 6:29:44 pm

Just like they would never release a new FCP without a client monitor, XML or tracks..



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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 6:31:00 pm

Funny

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Tom Sefton
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 6:33:41 pm

Hardware choices for Mac at the moment seem poor value aside from the macbook pro retinas. You could build a stonkingly fast PC system with a new 2k resolution HP monitor for less than a top of the range iMac and then be able to upgrade it for the next 5 years of its life....


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 6:39:59 pm

I believe this may have been mentioned before on this forum

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 7:03:17 pm

I can buy the wood and build a chair for less money than I could go out an buy one at a furniture store, but I'm not interested in being a carpenter.

I hear the $$$ sentiment all the time, but I've never seen anyone who's been able to provide side-by-side specs on a Mac equivalent that's VASTLY cheaper. Maybe a few hundred dollars on a several thousand dollar machine. But that savings just isn't worth it to me for the time I'd have to invest. I make enough money to upgrade every couple of years. And then it's not like I toss my old Macs away, they've had great resale values. So I think the question of cost is a lot more cloudy (and not as far apart) that some might imagine.



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Sohrab Sandhu
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 7:20:42 pm

[Marcus Moore] " I make enough money to upgrade every couple of years."

The question is not whether you make enough to upgrade, its about having a choice to upgrade.

So you sell a 2010 MacPro in 2012 and buy a new one, how different is it? Can it be really termed as an upgrade?

Sohrab



FCS 3 & Adobe PPro
AJA Kona Lhi, Mac Pro 2 X 2.66 Ghz Quad Core
Flanders Scientific LM-1760W




"The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth-century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six months, or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen." -- Carl Ally


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Craig Seeman
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 7:47:17 pm

[Sohrab Sandhu] "So you sell a 2010 MacPro in 2012 and buy a new one, how different is it? Can it be really termed as an upgrade?"

Change the buy date to 2013 it probably will be. You're talking about an EOL computer. In any other two year period the hardware differences are often considerable. And the MacPro you buy in 2013 might be replaced in 2015 with optical Thunderbolt for example.



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Sohrab Sandhu
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 8:07:52 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Change the buy date to 2013 it probably will be."

This is just plain speculation. There is no substance to it. And anyways 3 years is a long long time to bring out something new.

Its funny how you chide the doubters when they interpret Apple's silence on Macpro but when it comes to defending them you let your Imagination take a free ride.


[Craig Seeman] "And the MacPro you buy in 2013 might be replaced in 2015 with optical Thunderbolt for example"

My clients pay me for what i have, not for something i might have 2 years down the line.

Sohrab



FCS 3 & Adobe PPro
AJA Kona Lhi, Mac Pro 2 X 2.66 Ghz Quad Core
Flanders Scientific LM-1760W




"The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth-century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six months, or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen." -- Carl Ally


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 8:12:17 pm

It's NOT speculation Apple PR have stated there IS a new MacPro coming this year

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 22, 2013 at 5:08:35 am

[Steve Connor] "It's NOT speculation Apple PR have stated there IS a new MacPro coming this year"

Well, no. "We’re working on something really great" doesn't straight up mean they are making a Mac Pro.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 22, 2013 at 5:21:35 am

That was Cook's email. Apple PR later confirmed with NYT that Cook was talking about a new MacPro.

And ONCE AGAIN, for the record, Tim said...

Although we didn't have a chance to talk about a new Mac Pro at today's event, don't worry as we're working on something really great for later next year.

I'm sorry, but only a valiant wordsmith could pull vagaries out of that sentence. Tim was talking about the MacPro, and Apple PR later confirmed it with David Pogue.



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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 22, 2013 at 7:18:53 am

The problem is that Apple releasing a new Mac Pro doesn't fit with the " Apple has abandoned professionals" cry that is very popular since FCPX was launched.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Craig Seeman
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 22, 2013 at 7:52:25 am

[Steve Connor] "he problem is that Apple releasing a new Mac Pro doesn't fit with the " Apple has abandoned professionals" cry that is very popular since FCPX was launched."

That Apple makes laptops that has the equivalent of external PCIe slots and can cost upwards of $3000 is really just for hobbyists. Obviously it's the hobbyists buying Pegasus RAIDs, Sonnet PCIe chassis, AJA IO XTs. None of this would interest a professional. One would surely conclude that an updated MacPro is just going to be an iPad peripheral (and the iPad is a damn nice professional tool itself).



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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 22, 2013 at 9:41:06 am

[Marcus Moore] "I'm sorry, but only a valiant wordsmith could pull vagaries out of that sentence. Tim was talking about the MacPro, and Apple PR later confirmed it with David Pogue."
Apple has a history of valiant word smithing so I don't see the problem with not taking the company line at face value. I would be surprised if Apple wasn't 're-envisioning' what a MacPro should be and I'm sure some people will love it and some people will hate it. In 2010, when pressed about the languishing FCP 7 Jobs said the next version would be awesome. Awesome is debatable but I think everyone can agree that X was drastically different and unexpected so I'm not one to think Apple isn't beyond rocking its own boat.

The Air has replaced the MacBook. The MBPr is going to replace the MBP. All Apple's devices and computers are becoming more and more appliance-like (in that upgrading the machine means buying a new one) so I'm fully prepared for them to come out with what they feel a modern MacPro should be. I think I'd actually be a little let down if the new MacPro is just the same tower design but with updated specs.




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Craig Seeman
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 8:25:47 pm

[Sohrab Sandhu] "This is just plain speculation"

Not speculation. Apple will be coming out with a new MacPro this year.

[Sohrab Sandhu] "My clients pay me for what i have, not for something i might have 2 years down the line."

For that reason one might want to update hardware frequently if it impacts productivity. It's perfectly reasonable to update to a current computer every two years given the pace of advancement in processors and now, connectivity.



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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 8:35:41 pm

Not in that particular case. But while I have no interest in building my own machine, it's certainly ANY consumer's responsibility to be an informed shopper. You don't upgrade if there's no measurable advantage. I upgrade when I see the need. Sometimes that's 2 years, sometimes 3.

In 2012 we found out that there will be a Pro update in 2013. So it's up to the each person to decide if they want to wait and hold onto their current machine or not.

In my own case, when the 2013 MacPro comes out, AND I decide that it has sufficient advantages to merit a switch from my 2011 iMac, then that would be my first MacPro since I retired my G5 Quad in 2009.



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Clint Wardlow
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 9:08:16 pm

[Marcus Moore] "In my own case, when the 2013 MacPro comes out, AND I decide that it has sufficient advantages to merit a switch from my 2011 iMac, then that would be my first MacPro since I retired my G5 Quad in 2009."

I think for a lot of us, what Apple releases as a MacPro will decide if we stay with Apple at all. Since migrating to Adobe Cloud, if the new MacPro is underwhelming I no longer feel the need to stick with OSX as my main platform.

If it is totally cool, it's Apple time. I like FCPX for quick and dirty cuts (but not enough to keep onboard with Apple if they screw the pooch on the MacPro). I use the Adobe Suite much more often. And I have to admit I am finding it a bit tiring trying to second guess what direction Apple is headed -- but that's just me.

I'll still keep my 27in imac around (forever locked in Snow Leopard).


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 9:20:57 pm

Absolutely. If Adobe's suite meets all your needs, then you've got options on both sides.

I still prefer the MacOS better to Windows though, so that still does figure into my decision making- and makes a straight hardware comparison not quite as black and white for me.



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Tom Sefton
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 8:43:05 pm

For the same spec as the current top of the range iMac, I built a PC for £1500 less. It can be upgraded with additional GPU's, more RAM, larger SSD's for boot disks and have 3 SATA HDD's for RAID storage. With a 30" HP monitor alongside it, it was still £500 less. We can afford to upgrade our editing machines every year if we want, but it doesn't mean it would be a good idea - I'd prefer to buy more lenses : )


I do love our Macbook Pro laptops though - they are some of the best machines we have.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 9:34:38 pm

You can't just eliminate the monitor from the equation, so that $1,500 price comparison is irrelevant. I see the HP 30" Display as $1,250.

Other than that, I'd have to see an itemized breakdown on CPU, GPU, RAM, and all the nigglies before I take the £500 price difference as a given. Often times in these comparisons there are minor differences forgiven, like not QUITE the same processor, but close, etc... etc.

Of course, you can put in your choice of GPUs etc, which is why functionality-wise, an iMac and a PC tower aren't exactly comparable products- that would be the MacPro

And currently, you'll get no argument from me that the current MacPro is way overpriced for what you get.



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Gary Huff
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 11:49:13 pm

[Marcus Moore] "Of course, you can put in your choice of GPUs etc, which is why functionality-wise, an iMac and a PC tower aren't exactly comparable products- that would be the MacPro"

Until the new iMac Pro comes out with same form-factor and a single 6-8 core Xeon and Quadro M GPU.

But hey, you can at least upgrade it to 64GB of RAM!


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 22, 2013 at 12:40:10 am

What are you babbling about..? Crazy person!



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Rick Lang
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 22, 2013 at 12:49:07 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Hardware choices for Mac at the moment seem poor value aside from the macbook pro retinas. You could build a stonkingly fast PC system with a new 2k resolution HP monitor for less than a top of the range iMac and then be able to upgrade it for the next 5 years of its life...."

Tom, that thinking is so "yesterday" while many here are anticipating "tomorrow." Do the apples-to-apples comparison "later in 2013" (Tim Cook's timeline for the updated Mac Pro) and we'll ignore that your OS of choice is Windows rather than Mac OS X. There's been thousands of posts like this so I hope this doesn't add another hundred. Call me grumpy, sorry!

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Tom Sefton
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 22, 2013 at 3:55:21 pm

Rick, I don't have an OS of choice. I love Mac stuff and have spent plenty on them in the past - if I wasn't sold, I wouldn't be bothering to ask where I could find the next machine I want.

There might well have been thousands of posts like this before, but it is all the more relevant now, given that you can't buy a Mac Pro in Europe anymore and there is no date for release of the new model.

If you read my posts you can see that I am trying to purchase a Mac system for DaVinci resolve work that has thunderbolt ports for fast storage swaps. At present, a single 1 or 2GB GPU isn't going to cut it for this (which is the only option for the iMac and can't be upgraded).

I might be thinking yesterday here - if so, can you suggest a Mac system for working on RAW files from the Blackmagic Camera inside Resolve?

I don't mind the grumpiness - I'm grumpy all the time. I just try and take it out on my B*£@!^d f@**$%g keyboard.


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Rick Lang
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 22, 2013 at 4:49:26 pm

[Tom Sefton] "If you read my posts you can see that I am trying to purchase a Mac system for DaVinci resolve work that has thunderbolt ports for fast storage swaps. At present, a single 1 or 2GB GPU isn't going to cut it for this (which is the only option for the iMac and can't be upgraded).

I might be thinking yesterday here - if so, can you suggest a Mac system for working on RAW files from the Blackmagic Camera inside Resolve?"


Ah, Tom, I had not realized those goals. You've said the magic words to unlock my grumpiness: Blackmagic Cinema Camera! Resolve's processor and GPU demands will be the software that drives Apple's new hardware sales for some users, like you. FCPX runs very well on an iMac; Resolve wants tomorrow's big iron.

This excitement over machines fuelled by the GeForce GTX Titan seems a little over-heated to me when you examine NVIDIA's own benchmarks--an improvement over the 680 but within reason, nothing earth-shattering, nothing that could not have been branded a 695 instead of the mighty powerful "Titan". The nicest part of the Titan may be the 6GB GDDR5 memory as I agree the 680MX on the iMac will not suffice for all purposes. The processors are going to be running your work slower on the 680 than the Titan, but it will do it to a degree. But if the frame rate on the BMCC CinemaDNG clips is 2 to 4 frames a second on the 680MX, it may only be twice that on the Titan. A more severe problem is simply exhausting all the video memory and things effectively grinding to a halt.

Now that Apple is being sued for planned obsolescence, their engineers may have to think twice about constantly providing upgrades that are just below what you might expect so that you'll need to buy a replacement a year or two earlier than you want to.

I do believe your best option, given we are all filthy rich and unrestricted by budget (or we wouldn't be using Apple gear in the first place), is waiting for the mythical updating of the Mac Pro. I too believe it will include at least two Thunderbolt ports and possibly more, and will be able to support Apples implementation of the Titan if not a different class of NVIDIA GPU. Dual or triple Titans via SLI? Perhaps not. Thunderbolt storage device options are becoming more plentiful and 2013 should prove to be a watershed year introducing the next generation of "Mac Pros".

There I'm not feeling so grumpy, still crazy though, and I think we can all sell our second cars to help finance these things just to keep the competition honest. Apologies for not understanding your perspective better initially.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Tom Sefton
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 22, 2013 at 6:12:01 pm

Cheers rick! Very informative. I think we will wait for the Mac Pro when it appears.

Have a good weekend-all I need now is an England win over France in the rugby and I can forget about this apple malarkey.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 6:50:45 pm

Software can be updated (and has been (for free), to include those features- except tracks, which isn't a feature but a methodology). Hardware cannot (ok, sure internal components can, but not a zero cost to the user).



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Michael Sanders
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 9:23:24 pm

But think of the technical problems...

Thunderbolt carries display port but how do you run output from an external gfx card back to the thunderbolt port?

Or do you take display out of thunderbolt.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 9:50:34 pm

mac pros? surely we will soon be editing on our iWatches by rubbing them on our iPads?
It only makes sense.

Sorry couldn't make it to BVE - have been all hours house chained with gig.
Any good stuff?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 10:02:49 pm

BVE is next week!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 10:22:10 pm

oh sweet sure - I'm there so.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Ewart
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 25, 2013 at 12:00:23 pm

Hmmm



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Craig Seeman
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 7:49:16 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Is there any way to get thunderbolt to work with a post 2009 mac pro?"

To address this specifically... no.
Intel has said the Thunderbolt controller must be on the motherboard.

To me, the most interesting aspect of what's coming will be how they handle the GPU.
All Thunderbolt computers to date have the GPU on the motherboard. Keep in mind that Thunderbolt is also the display out.



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Chris Kenny
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 22, 2013 at 1:15:14 am

[Craig Seeman] "To me, the most interesting aspect of what's coming will be how they handle the GPU.
All Thunderbolt computers to date have the GPU on the motherboard. Keep in mind that Thunderbolt is also the display out."


It would actually be quite handy if a hypothetical new Mac Pro had decent on-board video. It would solve the problem of how to get a video signal over Thunderbolt. Plus, making a separate GPU optional might be attractive for some customers who have more CPU-focused workloads (that's especially interesting if there's a new more rack-friendly form factor). It would also be great for e.g. Resolve users — use the on-board GPU to drive your GUI display, freeing up a slot for an additional CUDA processing GPU.

Maybe a plan for something like this is why Apple has, over the last couple of OS X releases, been adding support for generic 'PC' graphics cards to OS X.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 8:47:32 pm

So why your original question then Tom?

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Tom Sefton
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 8:55:50 pm

We got the Blackmagic Camera before Christmas. It's far easier to use with Mac than PC at the moment, and with work stacking up, I'm trying to buy a more powerful Mac (than the 2 Retina MBP's we have) for rendering and for DaVinci Resolve. We've also invested in some great external RAID storage drives that have thunderbolt, and I want to be able to shoot in the field, transfer to the RAID devices via thunderbolt, and then have these dropped off at the studio for editing and grading, while more shooting takes place.

It's convoluted, I know, but after how BRILLIANT the MBP's are, and how impressed we are with thunderbolt, I was hoping things might be the same with the big Mac Pro! We'll wait for the new Mac Pro - I don't think that the iMac will cut it for DaVinci in the long hop, and although we could afford it, I don't think its prudent to spend £2500+ on something we can't upgrade.


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 9:02:45 pm

I have the same issue, we have a BMD camera as well, we were going to get a top spec iMac, which is actually certified with Resolve, but now I think we'll wait for the new MacPro. BTW how are you liking the camera?

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Tom Sefton
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 9:12:10 pm

Love it!

Had some teething issues initially with some of the lenses we had (specifically the Tokina), but we've been getting used to it and love it now. Love using the ProRes 10bit for greenscreen shoots, and the RAW is stunning in post.

We have the Rokinon cinema lenses, but are starting to think of buying some of the Zeiss primes - have you any of these?

How are you finding the audio?

We saw the iMac was certified for Resolve, but a PC with a similar single 2GB GPU is very limited in performance. I'm hoping the new Mac Pro has some really beefy GPU options, otherwise we might have to rethink and go for one of the new Nvidia Titan GPU's with a PC rig.

Don't suppose anyone has tried a BOXX workstation?


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 21, 2013 at 9:18:08 pm

We're still working on lenses, I heard the Rokinon lenses were a little soft, we're looking at the Samyangs or the Zeiss. Haven't had an audio shoot yet!

I'm really hoping that the Titan will be an option on the new Mac Pro!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Santiago Martí
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 22, 2013 at 8:46:45 am

Samyang and rokinon are the same lenses, rebranded. Samyang=rokinon=bower.
Used S16 lenses are a great choice for that sensor size. Some S16 used highspeeds arri zeiss could cost 10k for a set.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Mac Pro??
on Feb 24, 2013 at 12:00:01 am

Try this on for size Tom:

http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/promax-one-looking-at-the-hero

And this:

http://www.barefeats.com/sandy01.html

Boxx relies on overclocking, gaming cards, etc. - at ProMAX we manufacture purpose-built Windows workstations, designed specifically for video editing, using parts certified and thoroughly tested by both Adobe and Avid (Intel Xeon Procs, Intel Server Motherboards, Nvidia Quadro Cards).

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Robert Sala
Thunderbolt and next.gen. mac/pc
on Feb 23, 2013 at 1:42:40 pm

Thunderbolt needs chipsets for the motherboard, xeons are still waiting for them. Even so, TB will not deliver the cutting edge solutions for the next generation Macpro or PC. If Avatar 2 was to be postproduced on a Mac/PC, the needed bandwidth for uncompressed files will be 4-5Gbyte/sec, or 30-40Gbit/sec (4k/3D/60fps). TB is only 10Gbit sec /channel now.*
The only solution remains PCI, for storage and GUI/GPU/MIC coprocessors-- to make the job a real-time (or near RT) experience.
*next gen TB will double that in 2014, still short.


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