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The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)

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Charlie Austin
The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 2:03:54 am

Or not...

Here's my Thesis... One recurring criticism of the X timeline is that is has a "parent/child" relationship with vertically adjacent clips. This is seen as a bad thing. I'm not sure why, but it is. Anyhoo... I find that "parent/child" relationship actually makes editing orders of magnitude faster, especially when one has a timeline with lots of "tracks"

A cut is, of course, a linear/horizontal/time based thing. But that "thing" is comprised of lots of chunks of vertically linked clips. An on camera bite (picture/dialog/room tone/foley/fx) cuts to an action scene (picture/dia/8 different effects/foley) etc. All linked in time, but also individual... I dunno... pods if you will. Maybe they overlap, maybe not, you know what i mean... you're editors. ;-)

So, for me, the X timeline makes manipulating the "pods" so much faster and easier it's almost ludicrous.

That's my thesis. lol

So... I've been messing with Pr CS6 (New to me for the most part) and MC 6.5 (New version of an old friend) for a bit. And just for giggles I did a little comparison. It's not scientific. :-)

Same spot in Pr and X. I want to move a "pod" a few seconds later in the spot, pull up the hole it leaves, and fit it into it's new position without changing the timing of anything else. Then undo it all.
The result is below.
To be fair, since I'm not a Pr speed demon/KB shortcut wizard, I sped up the Pr video to 200% between dropping the "pod" and the last trim move before undoing it all. I also grouped all the "pod" clips in Pr before I started, and didn't clean up the random bits of clips that got split doing the move in Pr.

This kind of stuff is why I like X, warts and all. :-)

Moving a pod in X and Pr CS6



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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Oliver Peters
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 2:24:39 am

Is this supposed to to play as a video?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 2:26:53 am

[Oliver Peters] "Is this supposed to to play as a video?"

Yeah, doesn't it? Works here... It's not that groundbreaking though. Just a time-waster. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Oliver Peters
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 2:31:10 am

Just sits there like a still without a play bar or start icon.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 2:32:17 am

[Oliver Peters] "Just sits there like a still without a play bar or start icon."

Weird, cow converts it to flash or something... can u see it if you click the link?

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Oliver Peters
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 2:34:05 am

Must be a Flash/Safari issue. Fine in Chrome.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 2:49:35 am

Works for me in Safari 6.0.2 and OS 10.8.2.

Perhaps it's one of those recent Flash issues. Make sure you've update to 11.6.
I noticed I was getting "blocked plugin" on some sites. Apparently defending against Flash security holes fixed in an update.



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Oliver Peters
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 2:56:11 am

It was the AdBlock Safari extension.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 3:00:39 am

[Oliver Peters] "It was the AdBlock Safari extension."

Ahh, someone doesn't like being marketed to.
Don't you know if they can't sell you anything they'll all go out of business or otherwise be discouraged from moving their ad dollars to the web. ;)



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Andy Field
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 4:01:28 am

Magnetic timeline: solution in search of a problem


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Craig Seeman
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 4:14:01 am

It solved some fundamental problems for me going back to around 1990 or so. One is the conflict between tracks for compositing and tracks for organizing. The other is a much prefer the default rippling.



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Julian Bowman
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 7:33:54 am

Personally I am finding that the magnetic timeline causes more hassle than it stops to be honest. The other day I was trying to shift clips along to the right, and what used to be TTTT then drag to the right became an exercise in cutting up gap clips and re situating connection points and in the end, after I did move it, my audio was out of sync with my video. Ok, I may not be as we'll versed as many in the black arts of X, but intuitive this experience was not.

Overall my perception of the magnetic timeline is 'meh!'. Seems to have traded one set of issues for a load of different ones. Just means I have to learn a who new bunch of workarounds from before just for the sake of Apple believing they reinvented the wheel.

I am wedded to X now, and sure it can work as an editing program, but to be absolutely honest I do not see it ever taking off in the same way as 7 did. It's just too contrary for the sake of being cool... Hoxton Sqaure syndrome... And way too fiddly at the moment for the majority to care about. I don't care about it and as I said I am wedded to it. x is something I am having to suffer as a means to a ends with regards to making my living. Shame really, but there you go.



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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 9:25:08 am

[Julian Bowman] "Personally I am finding that the magnetic timeline causes more hassle than it stops to be honest. The other day I was trying to shift clips along to the right, and what used to be TTTT then drag to the right became an exercise in cutting up gap clips and re situating connection points and in the end, after I did move it, my audio was out of sync with my video. Ok, I may not be as we'll versed as many in the black arts of X, but intuitive this experience was not."

Not sure exactly what you're doing, but just rolling the tail of the last clip before the chunk you're trying to ripple back a couple frames to create a bit of gap, select the right side of that gap, and ripple everything to the right as much as you need. Or select whatever you want to move and use the position tool to drag them, and all their connected clips, wherever you want. It's different than 7 and behaves more like MC in this regard. Which, honestly, isn't a bad thing... :-)

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Bret Williams
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 3:49:50 am

It does. But the first thing any MC editor did back in my MC days was put a frame of something on the sequence, and insert 30 min of black before it so that the damn thing operated like it should. :)


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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 9:17:13 am

[Andy Field] "Magnetic timeline: solution in search of a problem"

Clip collisions are the problem. A whole fiddly raft of workarounds involving various combinations of trim modes have been created over the years in other NLE's to avoid them. The X timeline absolutely negates that problem, freeing you to just worry about the cut without concurrently solving a geometric puzzle.

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Bill Davis
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 10:12:45 am

I dunno.

The problems it's mostly solved for me are A) having FUN editing again after so many years. and B) getting my work done faster so I'm spending less time locked away in my studio.

Perhaps in a strict sense they were less "problems" and more "happiness sinkholes?"

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 1:44:28 pm

I have my complaints about the MT as much as the next editor, but I do find it very helpful when working on projects at the stage where the script is still be fleshed out. It's the fastest tool for moving around soundbites and getting a feel for the flow of a piece.

I see from the demo how it's easier to use, but frankly I'm not sure I would use it a lot at the stage that this timeline was at. The reason is that this only works well because the connected clips are actually linked to the right clips on the primary storyline. When that isn't the case you often have to go through the extra step of making sure the connection points are connected to the correct clip. If not, you have to change where they are connected. Not a big deal, but something you really have to take mental note of.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Keith Koby
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 3:36:59 pm

Agreed. You need to spend a little time up front to be able to save later.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 3:49:03 pm

[Oliver Peters] "If not, you have to change where they are connected. Not a big deal, but something you really have to take mental note of."

....

[Keith Koby] "Agreed. You need to spend a little time up front to be able to save later."


Oh absolutely. Honestly, this wasn't posted for any reason other than me being curious about what it would look like doing the same thing in 2 different NLE's. I'm sure there are things you could do where Pr or MC would be faster than X. I just found it interesting. :-)

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 8:53:58 am

[Charlie Austin] "All linked in time, but also individual... I dunno... pods if you will. "

yep, just heaving around large glued together pods, or clods even. thats the stuff.

[Charlie Austin] "the X timeline makes manipulating the "pods" so much faster and easier it's almost ludicrous. "

yeah but, in certain ways, some people might consider that there are some trade offs there. But, you know, as long as its ludicrously easy to move big glued together lumps around all day?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 4:17:36 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "[Charlie Austin] "All linked in time, but also individual... I dunno... pods if you will. "

yep, just heaving around large glued together pods, or clods even. thats the stuff.

[Charlie Austin] "the X timeline makes manipulating the "pods" so much faster and easier it's almost ludicrous. "

yeah but, in certain ways, some people might consider that there are some trade offs there. But, you know, as long as its ludicrously easy to move big glued together lumps around all day?"


Of course there are trade offs, there are trade off's between any different tools. And as has been repeated ad infinitum, use the tool that suits you. For what I do, moving "big glued together lumps around" is a fairly common thing, so I like that it's ludicrously easy to do so. I find it helpful having a MC style rippling timeline combined with a FCP 7/Pr style free form timeline. You don't.

I mean, I miss a lot about FCP 7 too, but that ship has sailed. I'm enjoying cutting with something that doesn't just work essentially the same as everything else has for the last 20 years. And I'm actually enjoying re-familiarizing myself with other NLE's. Old, crusty, NLE's ;-) lol

In the long run, if all one can cut on is one software package, they're probably doomed in this biz. Anyway, I've seen the future of our craft. It's called Vine. We're all doomed. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 5:00:54 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Anyway, I've seen the future of our craft. It's called Vine. We're all doomed. :-)"

:)

Indeed - Vine will have us all.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 5:05:01 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "yeah but, in certain ways, some people might consider that there are some trade offs there. But, you know, as long as its ludicrously easy to move big glued together lumps around all day?"

Do you do many narrative projects Aindreas?

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 7:25:21 pm

Not narrative, nay - that is thine own illustrious bag - Did do a half hour ryder cup doco there based around an extended JM Olazabal IV and a ton of archive just before christmas? god that was a good ryder cup - we're all friends but - SUCK IT AMERICA.

I did not long for everything to be glued together, you will note. I personally rather like a live delicate timeline. I find it keeps me on the proverbial toes. Basically I can't imagine where it is good for me that things just default into pre-pack large lego pods.

I'm actually fine with doing the occasional jenga - I think it tends to remind you of the pieces.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 7:50:46 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I did not long for everything to be glued together, you will note. I personally rather like a live delicate timeline. I find it keeps me on the proverbial toes. Basically I can't imagine where it is good for me that things just default into pre-pack large lego pods."

As the majority of my work IS narrative I have to say I like the "pods". I find it useful that when I stick Broll or graphics etc over my narrative it stays together, it gives me an easier way of experimenting with narrative changes, especially later as the edit evolves.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Bill Davis
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 7:12:22 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "yeah but, in certain ways, some people might consider that there are some trade offs there. But, you know, as long as its ludicrously easy to move big glued together lumps around all day?"

Yeah, cause "glued lumps" are so inherently evil.

Just don't say it so loud, because the grown ups are listening.

You know folks like....

The electronics industry - built largely on modular assembly? (Must be Idiots!)
(We all know that hand wiring each and every element in a complex construction completely from scratch - is the only way REAL assemblers should ever do things.)

Or the auto industry - with all those silly "just in time" and assembly line philosophies that changed the entire world by driving more efficiency into a hand assembled world? Nothing to see here, move along.

Yeah, REAL editors need to HAND assemble everything from discrete parts!

May I suggest a slogan or two for your bold new retro initiative?

Perhaps

"It was good enough for 2004, so its dammed well good enough for today!

Or my personal favorite...

"Hurry and go BACK - cuz that way, there be MONSTERS..." (I think it has a ring to it!)

Let us know how your initiative to fight the evil of "glued lumps" catches on.
(Run away! Run away!)

And I'm sure you'll find all sorts of industries excited to take your ideas arguing that the ONLY way to approach video is to become your kind of radical fundamentalist railing against the evils of modular assembly!

Cuz THATs what's wrong with the world of editing today. The evil of doing a repetitive piece of your editing work once - and easily moving, sorting and/or re-using the result over and over again as needed.

What a stupid idea.

Run with that, dude. It's a sure winner.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 8:09:36 pm

man Bill, I'm used to you beating down an awful lot harder on verbose Andy fallacies than that!

So - I'll only say that in this argument case - the semi transistor that needs to be automated into a chip is, say, a glancing look, or a left over reaction shot that turns out great in a different context later, and the capacitor is a semi-forgotten aerial shot three layers down below alternates - a live unconnected timeline tends to lead to them being periodically re-unearthed. Half the time its the chaff that saves me.
Connections predispose decisions. if we start automating the process of assembly, if we start seeing the nature of a timeline, which is by nature a deeply personally memory association process, where you are continuously re-evaluating relationships in time, as a car/chip assembly plant where things get bolted together and put on the pulley belt for vimeo,
then... there really might be a wee bit of a problem on the horizon.

As ever: all my ire is to Apple.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 8:28:25 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "if we start automating the process of assembly, if we start seeing the nature of a timeline, which is by nature a deeply personally memory association process, where you are continuously re-evaluating relationships in time, as a car/chip assembly plant where things get bolted together and put on the pulley belt for vimeo,
then... there really might be a wee bit of a problem on the horizon."


The thing that annoys me most about the criticism of FCPX is that the magnetic timeline is somehow a hinderance to creativity in editing because it's simply not true.

Also Aindreas, did you know that your http://www.ogallchoir.net address doesn't work any more?


Steve Connor

'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 8:52:46 pm

[Steve Connor] "Also Aindreas, did you know that your http://www.ogallchoir.net address doesn't work any more?"

ech - enom - thanks though, I *will* by christ do it tomorrow. I actually got the second iOS reminder, sent by previous me, this afternoon.
mental few days editing. sure all the really current stuff is on the vimeo anyway.
I really really really need to sort my portfolio.

that said - please by all means do be annoyed Steve - that timeline is a cognitive hinderance. You can get over it maybe, but its there.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 9:04:16 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] " that timeline is a cognitive hinderance"

Add the words "for me" at the start of that sentence and I have no argument. Otherwise it's just a subjective opinion.

BTW are you going to BVE next week?

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 9:15:55 pm

duly: for me.

Sure indeed on BVE, if... this edit lets me out into the world...: I will turn up in Rab C Nesbitt costume with an 'FCPX is bollocks' t-shirt. that should do it.
you be about?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 10:57:25 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "you be about?"

Certainly will !

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Bill Davis
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 15, 2013 at 11:35:15 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that timeline is a cognitive hinderance."

In mostly the same sense that MATH is a cognitive hinderance to those who don't have much familiarity with it.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jamie Franklin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 6:37:08 am

[Bill Davis] " In mostly the same sense that MATH is a cognitive hinderance to those who don't have much familiarity with it."

Wow...you finally said something I agree with. It is like MATH, something we all have to learn, the majority find unpleasant and hope in our adult life we don't have to use much of, if at all...


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Bill Davis
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-) (x2)
on Feb 17, 2013 at 1:06:39 am

[Jamie Franklin] "Wow...you finally said something I agree with. It is like MATH, something we all have to learn, the majority find unpleasant and hope in our adult life we don't have to use much of, if at all..."

Ok, but please remind me not to shop anywhere you're making change if the register loses power...

And heaven help you ever want to understanding the need for a 3:2 pulldown or 29.97 fps or whether a 40% speed reduction might result in more or less frame interpolation than at 35%,,,

That math stuff is such a terrible burden when applied to something as simple as video production! : )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jamie Franklin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-) (x2)
on Feb 17, 2013 at 3:02:03 am

Oh please Bill, if anyone would be pushing for an "app" to do all of those things, it would be you....

And in fact, when I want to calculate file format sizes and frame rate conversions, I do just that....


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 1:28:33 am

Charlie,

One might ask why there is no discussion (or video example) of clip groups in PPro ...

Franz.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 1:32:26 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Charlie,

One might ask why there is no discussion (or video example) of clip groups in PPro ...

Franz.
"


Sure there is, in my post. It's a nice feature.

[Charlie Austin] "I also grouped all the "pod" clips in Pr before I started"

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 1:36:33 am

Charlie,

Were any of the other clips grouped?

Franz.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 1:49:52 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Charlie,

Were any of the other clips grouped?

Franz."


Nope. Just to see what would happen I just did the same move, but grouped the "pods" on either side of the point where I dropped the first group. (I was lining up the video clip to the end of a clip FWIW) It had the same result, split all the clips, (including the video clip I was dropping the group adjacent to) that were aligned with the head of the leftmost clip in the group, and cleared everything out of the space taken up by the moved group. Grouping the other clips made no difference...

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 1:56:36 am

Charlie,

I'm also interested why you chose to use the trim tools to place the clip groups (rather than clicking and dragging).

Also, if I'm reading it correctly, your last trimming action actually breaks the group (or slips sync) (... can't read it but it might be labelled "Bug xxxx 12" clip). Is that true? If so, not good.

Franz.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 2:02:33 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Charlie,

I'm also interested why you chose to use the trim tools to place the clip groups (rather than clicking and dragging).

Also, if I'm reading it correctly, your last trimming action actually breaks the group (or slips sync) (... can't read it but it might be labelled "Bug xxxx 12" clip). Is that true? If so, not good."


No real reason, I've just been messing with Pr, which is why I did this in the first place. It would have been a little quicker to just drag everything into place, but it also would have either overwritten some tracks and/or required some track tetris to clear the way. Again, this wasn't at all scientific. ;-)

And yeah, you're right about that last clip breaking sync. Didn't even notice. I put it down to my trim tool carelessness. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 2:08:42 am

[Charlie Austin] "And yeah, you're right about that last clip breaking sync. Didn't even notice. I put it down to my trim tool carelessness. :-)"

Charlie,

I'm more alarmed by the fact that you can slip clips within a group so easily - I thought they were more reliable. Grouping is one feature of PPro that I find attractive, but I haven't experimented enough to discover that shortcoming ...

Franz.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 2:18:47 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Charlie,

I'm more alarmed by the fact that you can slip clips within a group so easily - I thought they were more reliable. Grouping is one feature of PPro that I find attractive, but I haven't experimented enough to discover that shortcoming ...
"


Good point. As that clip was grouped, you'd think it shouldn't move at all. :-0

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 1:48:21 am

Charlie et al,

... also, now that I review this, there's this question:

I am assuming from this demonstration (and others) that X always prioritizes picture when "collapsing" the timeline - ie it will shuffle sound in order to abut picture elements (and never the other way round, prioritizing audio). Is this true?

Franz.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 1:56:13 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "... also, now that I review this, there's this question:

I am assuming from this demonstration (and others) that X always prioritizes picture when "collapsing" the timeline - ie it will shuffle sound in order to abut picture elements (and never the other way round, prioritizing audio). Is this true?"


This is true, but, assuming you've got audio properly connected, which is trivial, it won't screw up sync. The exception would be a music bed with a bunch of cut points, which would get moved and maybe you don't want it to. However, if you just throw your MX in a compound clip and make sure its pinned to the head or tail of your sequence it won't move. That works with anything you don't want to move when doing something like I did...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 2:00:16 am

[Charlie Austin] "it won't screw up sync"

Charlie,

Yes, I understand; this wasn't really why I was asking.

I'm sort of fascinated (astonished?) that "video priority, always" as a design choice wasn't more apparent before (and hasn't been discussed anywhere).

(If I'm understanding you correctly, then compounding sort of constructs an implied slug video track, even if there is no video track in the compound.)

Fascinating.

Franz.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 2:15:39 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Yes, I understand; this wasn't really why I was asking.

I'm sort of fascinated (astonished?) that "video priority, always" as a design choice wasn't more apparent before (and hasn't been discussed anywhere).

(If I'm understanding you correctly, then compounding sort of constructs an implied slug video track, even if there is no video track in the compound.)

Fascinating.

Franz."


Gotcha. And it's actually the primary storyline which has priority, whether it contains video,audio, or gap, You could rearrange a radio spot really simply by using all connected clips and just cutting up the gap clip in the primary to "contain" each section and dragging them around,

As far as compounding, at least in the way I was specifically describing it, it would just collect all your various music clips and put them in one long clip which you could pin/connect to a primary clip that wasn't moving thus preserving your overall sync. If you were for example just swapping a few shots or scenes and their associated audio around quickly but didn't want your MX cut to change. if you were cutting out an entire chunk and pulling everything up, you might want the MX (or whatever) to move so you wouldn't do this.

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 2:32:40 am

Charlie,


So, details of mechanics aside, here's my more fundamental reaction.

The group you've move contains many audio clips that start before and continue after picture.

The example as you've illustrated it seems to imply that once the group is moved (and picture gaps collapsed), the move (let's call it the "editing decision") is finished. But in fact this editing decision isn't finished by just moving the group. (Well, unless it really was, which I consider to be a minority case.)

Looking at your timeline, it seems to me that much of your audio probably has to be reconsidered. Does the audio that precedes the group picture still work (as it did before)? Does the audio that follows the group picture still work (as it did before)? Broadly, these clips are more often than not (more likely "almost always") going to need to be adjusted, in order to finish this particular "editing decision".

A comparison in execution between two systems should probably execute the full editing decision in both systems.


Franz.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 16, 2013 at 2:52:16 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Looking at your timeline, it seems to me that much of your audio probably has to be reconsidered. Does the audio that precedes the group picture still work (as it did before)? Does the audio that follows the group picture still work (as it did before)? Broadly, these clips are more often than not (more likely "almost always") going to need to be adjusted, in order to finish this particular "editing decision".

A comparison in execution between two systems should probably execute the full editing decision in both systems.

"


Very true, and as i said, this was a completely arbitrary move in context of the spot I used as a guinea pig, so to speak. However, as it happens, the group I moved did work just fine, with the exception of the leftmost clip, which I could have left behind. The other overlapping clips were J/L cuts relating to the picture.

But, yes, as with any cut, you'd have to probably clean up the audio in most cases. In my experience though, it's as fast or faster to edit audio in X due to not having to worry about collisions. I was working in FCP 7 all day today, with 24 tracks of audio. It was an enormous pain in the ass now that I'm used to working in X. And not for lack of experience, as I've been cutting on FCP "classic" 5 days a week for 11 or 12 years. Tracks get in my way now. ;-)

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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T. Payton
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 17, 2013 at 12:27:00 am

Back to OP. Here is my take on the Magnetic Timeline. In shot, I like it alot. This is the long version,

I've been watching some tutorials on lynda.com for Narrative and Documentary editing, for Avid MC, FCP X and Premier Pro. (Before I go on, I must say that Ashley Kennedy Media Composer's tutorials on lynda.com are fantastic. Her take on preplanning for a documentary has saved me countless hours in my last few projects. I highly recommend them.)

From watching these tutorials for all thee NLEs, it is clear that Media Composer is a VERY powerful tool, and the big dog of the bunch, and Premier Pro is a capable "second generation" NLE, but FCP X is a revolutionary "third generation" editor.

Apple seems to have rethought every aspect of the editing process. It is staggering to see how many editing steps have been eliminated by the magnetic timeline and connect clips. Setting up track patching is FCP X unnecessary. Basic trimming is greatly simplified in FCP X and doesn't require the explanation that it does in track based editing. The filmstrip in FCP X allows you to view all your visual footage in a fraction of what it takes to scrub through. These are just a few. As a designer myself, FCP X is awe inspiring in its ability to remove complexity in editing.

As a personal example, at my shop I trained an assistant on FCP X this past summer. She had never touched a NLE before and she was literally up and running with organizing, making favorites, editing a timeline, trimming and adding stills with just 20 minutes of instruction from me. (I have tried this with FCP 7 in years past, and that same instruction took several hours with lots of memorization) Now months later she is becoming a capable editor and I was talking with her about the benefits of FCP X, because she doesn't know anything but FCP X. So I opened up FCP 7 and Premier Pro and showed her around the interface a bit. I showed her the patch panel in the timeline and she said "Do people STILL use software like this? That is very complicated." I asked her to try to figure out how perform and edit to add an audio clip below V1. After a bit of tinkering she gave up. Frankly, I couldn't even figure it PP either ;)

Now I completely understand a seasoned editor having an issue with the FCP X and the magnetic timeline. We become accustomed to the way we work, and if you've worked in Media Composer for years then FCP X is bizzar confusing mess. However, to say that it is only good for "skater youtube videos" is an insult made out of ignorance. Every type of edit I have had in the past year and a half has shown that FCP X is a tool capable of nearly any time of project.

I for one am inspired by the innovation of others. Just as other artists and editors work push me to be better, FCP X inspires me to work better and more efficiently. FCP X is treading new ground in terms of editing and I don't think all of the conventions are completely worked out. (Audio mixing isn't there yet, some editing tasks require too many steps, collaboration is non existent.) Perhaps Apple won't be the ones who figure out the best way to accomplish certain tasks in editing in a "third generation" NLE, but they have started the ball rolling and frankly I'm enjoying the ride.

Sincerely,

An unashamed fan of the innovation at Apple and Final Cut Pro team.

------
T. Payton
OneCreative, Albuquerque


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Craig Seeman
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 17, 2013 at 1:34:52 am

I've heard many other stories like that. I do think FCPX has a promising future.

Many of these young folks will go out into the business world as solo editors and, as time goes one, some of those solos will expand into small shops. Personally I think this is how FCPX will gain most of its professional market share.

Only a small number of current facilities have moved to FCPX. Some of them though will find their small free lance pool from the above group as well.

Personally I think Apple designed FCPX not simply from watching editors (those already plying the trade) but watching people interact with computers. This is both the gem and the bane of FCPX.

While many of use have arguments about specific features (or lack thereof), it's the people who are part of the "paradigm" who will grow with FCPX as features are added. In some respects I do think this is similar to FCP legacy to the extent that many editors were only ever FCP editors and grew up with the feature set.



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Lillian Young
Re: The magnetic timeline sucks! ;-)
on Feb 14, 2014 at 12:15:43 am

I prefer the precision. I cannot tell you how many times I've moved something only for that magnetic timeline to slip my clips and screw up my audio timing. I read that it's best to use a Gap clip and place videos abve that to prevent slippage. That's foolish and creates way too many workarounds for what should be very simple.


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