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Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?

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Gustavo Bermudas
Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 6:46:27 pm

After reading apple's response as to "take your business somewhere else",
it seems like Apple has been planning this pro users exodus from the beginning, I can assume only that the amount of R&D needed for the pro market didn't justified against sales number, just a theory.
It surely makes more sense to them to put that money and resources on iPhones and iPads, just hope they don't discard the MacPros now, that'll be the final blow!


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Peter Blumenstock
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 7:09:01 pm

I am willing to bet 100 bucks that Mac Pros will be history within the next year or two. What should they be good for? FCP X is basically a single monitor app, drives can attach via Thunderbolt to anything, PCI-E is irrelevant because there is no video IO and an iMac is fast enough to run anything Apple has on offer without problems. Those who may need it for Resolve or whatever - why would Apple care?


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Phil Hoppes
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 7:26:46 pm

Ditto. There is no need for MacPros. FCPX is fast. Its only redeeming trait that I've seen. Steve has a nice, mid-range NLE that will run on their laptops and iMacs. Hell, given Moore's law still working, in a few years FCPX will run on iPads which is what Apple wanted all along. MacPro revenue and profit is in the round off error for their annual books. Take the resources and put them on iPhone and iPads where you get gobs of ROI.

As Tony Soprano use to say "Hey, it not personal, it business"


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John Berpskin
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 7:50:01 pm

Are you guys seriously buying into this? A pro exodus? Yeah right!

I swear this is just getting funnier by the post. Sky is falling! Sky is falling!

People - there are FAR TOO MANY FACTORS out there to be starting unsubstantiated rumors like this.... and that's just what over half of the posts are in this forum - unsubstantiated rumors.


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Banks Meador
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 7:52:00 pm

What all of you just said.

It was the plan from the beginning.

The approach seems to be that they wanted to help novices keep from "messing up."

I truly love innovation. If there were simply different ways to do some of these things, I'd be ready to learn - no worries. Different isn't bad at all.

But compare the capabilities of this editor - even in the foreseeable future - to that of its supposed competitors, Media Composer and Premiere. It has not even half the FUNCTIONALITY (not features, though that's a strong argument too) of its "peers."



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John Berpskin
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 7:58:35 pm

Or another way of looking at it is that NO ONE has built a NLE from the ground up that is file based (vs tape based which every other editor is) and this is the first step of the journey.

I mean, did it ever occur to anyone that, with a new operating system and Thunderbolt drives coming, that you may not be seeing all of the picture yet?


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Phil Hoppes
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:14:56 pm

Ah, the infamous Thunderbolt drives that the default set up FCPX will never see, use or even know exists because everyone always stores their media on the system drive under Movies.

And yes, I truly believe that MacPro's will be dead. I don't believe a word that Apple or any corporation says..... I believe what they do. What Apple does, very very well BTW, is compete very profitably in the consumer market place. That's that 80% area under the bell curve. MacPros are an outlier to that space. Apple has just demonstrated to us all via FCPX and other actions (FCP server dead, XSAN dead) they don't wish to participate in these fringe top 10% markets. What actions have they done that shows a strong commitment to the MacPro market other that putting an upgrade mboard in the same box year after year after year. The last update was one of the most paltry updates seen. That they have completely dumped nVidia for high end graphics cards as well as in the ATI space they don't support their FirePro series tells me they really are not serious about making and supporting high end workstations. Speaks volumes to me.


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Banks Meador
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:16:24 pm

But

[John Berpskin] "
Or another way of looking at it is that NO ONE has built a NLE from the ground up that is file based (vs tape based which every other editor is) and this is the first step of the journey.

I mean, did it ever occur to anyone that, with a new operating system and Thunderbolt drives coming, that you may not be seeing all of the picture yet?"



But NONE of that stuff explains why such rudimentary things aren't present. Thunderbolt drives and Lion probably won't bring with them the ability to fine tune a dissolve with the precision of every other pro editor out there, including FCP 7. It probably won't bring with it the ability to make a simple title (though FCPX does actually seem to update the titling live over the viewer - an improvement).

With me, it's the sheer amount of missing functionality that is the proof. It'd take a mammoth amount of work - two more years by Apple's (and most other NLE manufacturer's) release cycle - to add in the functionality needed for a professional editor to fall in love with this software. They've stepped away from the tru pro market.



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John Godwin
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:38:58 pm

Banks - "With me, it's the sheer amount of missing functionality that is the proof. It'd take a mammoth amount of work - two more years by Apple's (and most other NLE manufacturer's) release cycle - to add in the functionality needed for a professional editor to fall in love with this software. They've stepped away from the tru pro market."

As a former Liquid Chrome owner I feel the pain here. This comment you made, though, addresses the point I've tried to make - I *think* they released FCP X before it was more finished so people could use it for what it has in it now. I *think* they'll add most of the missing functionality in the next year or two (though I have reservations about machine control, maybe 3rd party?). And I *think* they wanted to get the first version out rather than hold it back for another year or two.

And I'm *sure* if that's correct that they should communicate that to us immediately. In the meantime FCP X can handle 90% of my current needs, and I've been a pro for over 30 years.

Best,
John


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John Berpskin
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:01:23 pm

Banks - I have been a professional editor since 1992 (year I graduated college) and have used Video Toaster, cineworks, Media 100, Stratasphere, Avid, FCP and Sony Expree (sp?) and I can tell you, from working on these various platforms, that version 1.0 (no matter who made it) is missing something. The fact that they left FCP 7 in tact ( a move apple has NEVER done) without over writing it screams further development. It is my belief that this is going to be the paradigm shift often spoken of and that they are trying to bring you in to new era with an easy transition. I really believe that. If you approach the software with the idea that they want you to just attempt to get comfortable with it, then you see it in a different light.

But to foster and spread (not you specifically, but everyone as a whole) rumors that this is the end and there is some alterior, unfounded motive is doing nobody any good.


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Peter Blumenstock
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:30:25 pm

Why would you call Premier for example tape based? On the contrary: it handles all the various taples formats and it does so natively. Unlike FCP X which doesn't. They just understood that people still use tape and therefore the feature is there.


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John Berpskin
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:53:57 pm

Because Premiere and all other NLE's were launched BEFORE footage started be aquired file based (on cards and hard drives) All systems had to have a digitize tool for that. FCP X (my opinion) is going to be the first NLE that will be completely file based from day one with an after thought of tape digitization via third party capture (lost likely from video card manufacturers)

You have to remember we are in COMPLETELY uncharted waters on several levels -

1 - A new OS is coming out
2 - It's a new ap built from the ground up and rushed to market.
3 - It's a new way of "thinking" while editing, hence the rush to market, so that you can start becoming familiar with the theology WHILE STILL using FCP 7.
4 - Because the file is purchased from the app store, my opinion is that updates will come with more frequency than how they were released before.

And again, Apple turning it's back on Pros because it wants to a consumer level? How would any board of directors entertain that notion when you consider the following -

1 - FCP is dominating market share PRIOR to release. Why would they suddenly throw in the towel?
2 - Pros are the ones who purchase apples high end gear with more frequency than a consumer would - with an average upgrade/purchase every 4 years.
3 - They are entrenched in film making on the cusp of digital distribution.
4 - They now have a whole audience (iphone and ipad)

..... and yet they are going to somehow turn their back on the creative crowd, their core audience since mac began, in favor of consumer driven video editing dominance.

...ain't buying it. There's a bigger picture.


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Peter Blumenstock
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:02:04 pm

I can use tools from AJA or BMD today to capture and output. That's not the issue. The issue is that I cannot even get a file with four channels of audio out of FCP X which I then could output to tape.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:35:25 pm

2 - It's a new ap built from the ground up and rushed to market.

Rushed to Market? They've been working on it for 2 years.

3 - It's a new way of "thinking" while editing, hence the rush to market, so that you can start becoming familiar with the theology WHILE STILL using FCP 7.

If they wanted us to still use FCP7 they wouldn't have taken it off the market. The reason it can co-exist with FCP is that it is a totally different program. It doesn't overwrite FCP7 for the same reason Firefox or Itunes doesn't overwrite FCP.

And again, Apple turning it's back on Pros because it wants to a consumer level? How would any board of directors entertain that notion when you consider the following -

1 - FCP is dominating market share PRIOR to release. Why would they suddenly throw in the towel?


Because the towel is too small. It's a dish towel, they want to sell beach towels.

2 - Pros are the ones who purchase apples high end gear with more frequency than a consumer would - with an average upgrade/purchase every 4 years.

Pros are a major pain in the A** who ask a million questions and are never satisfied. The Mac Pro has stagnated as much as FCP7 in the past 2 years and is a good bet to be discontinued. The money in the market is in Air, Imacs and ipads.

3 - They are entrenched in film making on the cusp of digital distribution.

Means nothing. They get no advantage distributing a movie whether it was cut on FCP or a Moviola.

4 - They now have a whole audience (iphone and ipad)

Yes, and now they have a product to service that audience. That is the whole point.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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John Berpskin
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 1:54:55 pm

Rushed to Market? They've been working on it for 2 years.
As the husband of a wife who is a PMP in software development, I can relate that 2 years is a short time to develop software from the ground up EVEN WITHOUT understanding any hurdles they may have encountered.

If they wanted us to still use FCP7 they wouldn't have taken it off the market. The reason it can co-exist with FCP is that it is a totally different program. It doesn't overwrite FCP7 for the same reason Firefox or Itunes doesn't overwrite FCP.

They took it off the market because the last thing they need, especially after this launch, is another group of new FCP 7 users complaining about the lack of updates. FCP 7 still resides on hardrives for those who have purchased it and copies of it are still available at Amazon and B&H.


Because the towel is too small. It's a dish towel, they want to sell beach towels.

One possible reason of many but I find it hard to believe.


Pros are a major pain in the A** who ask a million questions and are never satisfied. The Mac Pro has stagnated as much as FCP7 in the past 2 years and is a good bet to be discontinued. The money in the market is in Air, Imacs and ipads.

You're on the money with pain in the a** but I disagree. I see a shift in Mac Pro to Mac Book Pro with thunderbolt. And again, their money is in hardware sales with a concentration on Professionals. If they were turning their back on professionals, why release Thunderbolt? They could have saved the money and went USB 3.


Means nothing. They get no advantage distributing a movie whether it was cut on FCP or a Moviola.

So there is no advantage to editing and delivering on pro res? meaning they get no monetary gain from people using their hardware, software and codec? really?


Yes, and now they have a product to service that audience. That is the whole point.


And with the advent of the ipad and iphone and the fact that people are using it to access on demand video programming (especially during commutes or while away from a tv), you're going to turn your back on this new audience?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 2:27:57 pm

FCP 7 still resides on hardrives for those who have purchased it and copies of it are still available at Amazon and B&H.

Many are reporting (this is unsubstantiated) that Apple has been trying to get those copies back from the resellers. Even if that's not the case the number of available new licenses is very limited.

You've left facilities and editors with no way to plan for expansion until the delivery of theoretical upgrades - and the content and timeline of these upgrades have not been officially promised by Apple, they are merely the deluded wishes of the very hopeful.

The Pro aps installer for FCP7 no longer exists. so even if you buy a new copy you get 7.0 not 7.0.3 - which is a huge difference in functionality. You remember what an actual upgrade IS don't you - it's the incremental improvement of a program, responding to user feedback. And what about re-installs - what if your hard drive fails and you have to re-install form your discs - back to7.0 you go.

But all that's fine in your view "because the last thing they need, especially after this launch, is another group of new FCP 7 users complaining about the lack of updates." -- Yeah, screw 'em.

So there is no advantage to editing and delivering on pro res? meaning they get no monetary gain from people using their hardware, software and codec? really?

I was talking about their gain from feature films and network TV shows watched on iphones and pads, not social media. And in that venue, which is the venue of the people that are complaining on this forum, they obviously don't gain enough for them to continue producing the tools needed to do the job. If they cared about this audience we wouldn't be having this exchange.

And with the advent of the ipad and iphone and the fact that people are using it to access on demand video programming (especially during commutes or while away from a tv), you're going to turn your back on this new audience?

I fully understand why Apple is catering to this audience. My whole point is that Apple has made a reasonable business decision to go after this audience, which is much larger than the high-end pro audience, because it will make them more money. They obviously thought FCP was too complex for their new target audience. What's shameful is using the Final Cut name in a deceitful way to brand this new program and the EOL of FCP7 with no warning whatsoever to the editing community that had been supporting them for all these years. We helped make that name mean something, now they take the name and burn all their bridges. If you don't have a problem with that, well your a different sort of person then I am.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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John Berpskin
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 3:08:22 pm

Many are reporting (this is unsubstantiated) that Apple has been trying to get those copies back from the resellers. Even if that's not the case the number of available new licenses is very limited.

You've left facilities and editors with no way to plan for expansion until the delivery of theoretical upgrades - and the content and timeline of these upgrades have not been officially promised by Apple, they are merely the deluded wishes of the very hopeful.

The Pro aps installer for FCP7 no longer exists. so even if you buy a new copy you get 7.0 not 7.0.3 - which is a huge difference in functionality. You remember what an actual upgrade IS don't you - it's the incremental improvement of a program, responding to user feedback. And what about re-installs - what if your hard drive fails and you have to re-install form your discs - back to7.0 you go.


Facilities and Editors with FCP 7 still have a working program with all the features in tact the same as they were prior to Monday. Nothing has changed except the fact that it is no longer being sold. So if you have the program, use it. If you don't, take your chances purchasing it the same as you would any other program that has been discontinued. So in essance, if you purchased it after the fact, you screwed yourself.

As far as upgrade, never once did I see this being toted as am upgrade. Maybe I missed that release (very well possible - I am not human) but everything I have seen pointed to them saying this was a completely new program from the ground up - a rewrite. That's what I have always taken it to be.


I was talking about their gain from feature films and network TV shows watched on iphones and pads, not social media. And in that venue, which is the venue of the people that are complaining on this forum, they obviously don't gain enough for them to continue producing the tools needed to do the job. If they cared about this audience we wouldn't be having this exchange.


Don't completely understand your response. My point, however, was that as visual media outlets grow (from tv to on demand to faster theatrical releases to iphone/ipad releases/net flicks/youtube rentals) so will demand. Never before has visual media been so accessible on multiple platforms. If there is such a need for visual content, they certainly have much to gain by being accessible. As for the theatrical and broadcast level, that's a thin line being stretched thinner as kids today emerge from school with a DSLR, an editing program and innovation. You can try and stop it but it's coming.


I fully understand why Apple is catering to this audience. My whole point is that Apple has made a reasonable business decision to go after this audience, which is much larger than the high-end pro audience, because it will make them more money. They obviously thought FCP was too complex for their new target audience. What's shameful is using the Final Cut name in a deceitful way to brand this new program and the EOL of FCP7 with no warning whatsoever to the editing community that had been supporting them for all these years. We helped make that name mean something, now they take the name and burn all their bridges. If you don't have a problem with that, well your a different sort of person then I am.

With all due respect, we must be. FCP, in any form, is just a tool I use. I've used others before and will most likely us others after. I don't need a program to have the word "pro" in it to differentiate myself from prosumers and amateurs any more than a writer or artist would need a different word processing program or brushes and paints to differentiate myself. Stunning visual concepts have been produced before FCP with all it's bells and whistles...long before. And they still will be as long as an artist has the desire to create.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 4:15:55 pm

So you basically don't have any problem with the manufacturer of a massively popular program, a program that people make their livings with, suddenly and without an hours warning EOL'ing the program and stopping all support? This seems like reasonable behavior to you? If so than I'm glad I don't have to do business with you.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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John Berpskin
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 24, 2011 at 6:05:32 pm

"So you basically don't have any problem with the manufacturer of a massively popular program, a program that people make their livings with, suddenly and without an hours warning EOL'ing the program and stopping all support? This seems like reasonable behavior to you? If so than I'm glad I don't have to do business with you."

Unless someone from Apple broke into your edit room and wiped FCP 7 from your Hard Drive, I would assume it is still operating the same as it did a week ago. But please, feel free to convince me otherwise because mine is still working fine.

And as someone who was there when FCP was first introduced and was trying to get other pros to take a look at it and see the possibilities, I feel deja vu all over again. Same thing happened with Sony Expree and know of more than one individual that rode that one out without any support for a few years.

But no need to get personal just cause I have a different outlook than you. I just have seen the shift in Production/Post production over the years and, while this may seem a radical step, it fits within the theme.


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Andrew Gingerich
Re: Was Apple planning a pro exodus from the get-go?
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:13:05 pm

I'm sure that new features will be added. What seems unlikely is whether Apple is willing to reconsider things that they committed to early in the design proces. File handling, for instance, is a nightmare in FCPX. The tight integration with iTunes/iPhoto libraries makes me cringe. If you're storing your projects anywhere besides a local drive, such reliances are going to bite you—hard. Event-based media libraries that aren't tied to individual projects? Scary. That doesn't sound like something Apple has any interest in fixing, because they don't view it as a problem. It's not a problem for non-pro users.

The same goes for the inability to place audio on specific tracks. Without that functionality (again unlikely to appear in future version as it seems so ingrained in the philosophy of the new timeline), Apple has slammed the door on the potential future inclusion of submixes or track-wide audio corrections (i.e. ProTools "inserts") or something as fundamental as. Need to deliver M&E tracks for a 2-hour feature? Have fun going through the timeline and muting all the dialogue clips one-by-one. Oh, and good luck getting an audio control surface to work when there's no such thing as audio tracks.


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