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Poor video playback via broadcast output

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Oliver Peters
Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 1:57:25 am

When playing long files (1 min or longer) the video stutters on fast horizontal pans. This timeline does not require rendering and media is optimized. Prefs set to "better performance". This is not dropping frames. The video stutters for a few seconds and then seems to "catch up" and play normally. This is with a Blackmagic Design Decklink HD Extreme 3D card. Also audio glitches when you first starts to play the timeline.

This all seems like the software is giving priority to the UI and then the broadcast output signal to the card is secondary. Definitely not reliable and in no way acceptable. It may be Apple's way of correcting video refresh to prevent horizontal tearing. It doesn't seem that playback through broadcast output hardware is as solid as it is with other apps. Probably the signal is simply being passed off through the OS to the card and never really "locked". This video definitely would never pass QC is you tried to record a live output from the card. I guess that's why Apple calls it "monitoring" and not "output". It really seems like Apple added this as an afterthought to appease the complaints. Pretty embarrassing to constantly have to make excuses to the client in the room.

Media is ProResHQ 23.98fps. Fast RAID for storage. Same clips play fine on the same hardware using FCP 7, Premiere Pro CS6 and Avid Media Composer. Mac Pro 12-core, 32GB RAM, ATI 5870, Fibre Channel SAN and local RAID storage.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Davidson
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 2:48:54 am

Does setting it to Better Playback not fix it? I

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 12:11:29 pm

No. It's been running that way the whole time. I tried it both ways. No difference.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bret Williams
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 4:01:49 am

And what are your bmd settings? 23.98 I'd hope.

I have identical playback through my bmd ultrastudio express. Analog and SDI scopes on the FSI are exactly the same whether X or 7. Well, more rt from X but rendered quality is the same.

My guess is they call it monitoring because that's how Apple sees it now. If they called it output they get grief that there's no tape control. Output to them is a file.


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Michael Hadley
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 7:23:23 am

What was the camera original source? The horizontal stuttering can be artifact of CMOS sensors. In other words, it may not be FCPX, but rather baked into the footage.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 12:28:10 pm

[Michael Hadley] "The horizontal stuttering can be artifact of CMOS sensors."

Not the case here. Most of the source media is from a C300 and 5DMk3 converted externally to ProResHQ using FCP 7 L&T by the DIT. Other sources are ProRes4444 direct from an Alexa. The stuttering is an intermittent playback issue and has nothing to do with the camera source. I can play it fine in FCP 7 with all the same hardware and settings.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 12:24:56 pm

[Bret Williams] "And what are your bmd settings? 23.98 I'd hope. "

Yes. This is not a settings issue, because it happens in the middle of playing a clip or a timeline. Occasionally stutters and then corrects itself. Source media is ProResHQ 1920x1080 23.98. Output is from the card via SDI to a TV Logic and HDMI to a Panasonic plasma. BTW - 29.97 projects aren't especially better.

[Bret Williams] "My guess is they call it monitoring because that's how Apple sees it now."

As far as I'm concerned, it was an afterthought at Apple and simply accomplished through an OS hack. There is no direct interaction with the hardware or an abstraction layer. Simply the OS handing off A/V to the driver of the card. A more sophisticated version of desktop display of the video. AJA may handle this better than BMD and the T-bolt devices better, yet. I don't care. It's unprofessional as it currently stands. On the plus side, the Apple solution tends to be more in sync between the viewer and the output (when it's right) than with FCP 7.

The other interesting part is the audio glitches. These happen in the first few seconds of a sequence. Right after I start to play (J key or space bar). It often happens at connecting points, though that might be coincidence.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 1:46:39 pm

To make matters worse, as I focus in on the audio, I now hear little audio ticks in the background ambience. It's like the little crackles you get from sample rate mismatches. I had this before with FCP X with media recorded on a Sound Devices PIX 240 and at the time blamed the recorder. Went through a round of troubleshooting with Apple to no avail.

That recorder isn't a factor on this job and I'm hearing it again. The audio sounds clean in other apps (like FCP 7) but has the random crackles in FCP X. If I were to export the audio the ticks would be baked in. In this case, I'll relink in FCP 7 and export an OMF, so I'm OK. But clearly the problem is inside FCP X.

Maybe X cannot properly resolve the sample rates on 23.98 (23.976) media files. Or at least ones converted through external sources rather than native camera media. Frankly I don't care, since this is the second time I've been burned. Arghh!!!

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 1:50:55 pm

Did this just start happening or is this a new phenomenon?

My Kona3 does not display this kind of movement. I don't know if that has any impact, Aja va BMD.

I assume you have the latest BMD drivers? There's a new build from a few weeks ago.

As far as Apple putting this in to appease, isn't this what AVFoundation and the "core" layers were built for?

I don't know. I could be just a bad driver install as I don't see these problems unless there's a specific underrun due to a lack of resources/need to render.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 3:10:26 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Did this just start happening or is this a new phenomenon?"

No, it's always done this, but seems to be worse on this job. I think it's related to the amount of media. Over 1TB, over 800 clips and nearly all ProResHQ. I think that's about the limit of what X can effectively deal with. Although I have a low tolerance for buggy, glitchy software.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I assume you have the latest BMD drivers?"

Yes.

[Jeremy Garchow] "isn't this what AVFoundation and the "core" layers were built for?"

I doubt it. It's a media architecture that replaces QT. It lets the OS deal with things like H264 in a native fashion. I doubt it has anything to do with hardware interaction like a hardware abstraction layer or actual direct hooks.

Rant to follow....

However, I see similar issues without any cards on various machines, so I tend to think it's how X interacts with the whole graphics subsystem, such as the display card by itself or in tandem with broadcast cards.

Basically, my entire experience since day 1 with X is that smooth playback with zero visual anomalies - like stuttering, the appearance of dropped frames (but not from hard driver performance) - has been problematic and not yet addressed by Apple. I tend to get the feeling that the system is optimized for H264 and little else, regardless about ProRes, etc.

I hate to invoke the iMovie reference, but that's what this all feels like. The under-the-hook architecture had the same target - H264, MP4, etc. Everything else is bolted on. I also think some of this is directly related to skimming. Not whether it's on or off, but rather the technology that makes it possible, also makes it harder to solidly pass video through the system.

And please don't bring up iMacs versus Mac Pros. As one can see by the various discussion threads on forums about the latest iMacs and FCP X performance, it appears Apple's QA was subpar on that one. I don't see any better performance on iMacs than Mac Pros with these issues that I'm complaining about. It all seems to boil down to how well - or not - the OpenCL implementation is. At least that's what it feels like, since performance with a Quadro 4000 (not a qualified OpenCL card) is significantly worse.

Sorry about being so negative, but I'm starting to give up on this ever getting better.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 11:10:28 pm

[Oliver Peters] "No, it's always done this, but seems to be worse on this job. I think it's related to the amount of media. Over 1TB, over 800 clips and nearly all ProResHQ. I think that's about the limit of what X can effectively deal with. Although I have a low tolerance for buggy, glitchy software."

You certainly could have fooled me! What is weird is that I find video out in fcpx to be better than Pr. I have much more issues in Pr but I attribute it to aging computers with no CUDA based GPU. I frequently has to change to 1/2 res on 1080 video out in Pr. I keep everything at best quality in X and it works pretty well.

[Oliver Peters] "I doubt it. It's a media architecture that replaces QT. It lets the OS deal with things like H264 in a native fashion. I doubt it has anything to do with hardware interaction like a hardware abstraction layer or actual direct hooks."

Perhaps, but Apple has their own reasons to have a hardware based output system for iTunes/AirPlay/etc. Most of their new computers have hdmi ports right on them. While it might be for streaming or h264 based downloads, it's still 709 video.

AVFoundation is relatively new, starting on 10.7 on the OSX side.

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/AudioVideo/Conceptual...

[Oliver Peters] "Rant to follow...."

In the AJA Beta days, "A/V Output" as X refers to it, was poor. It was buggy and weird. Over the next few updates, things were much better.

[Oliver Peters] "And please don't bring up iMacs versus Mac Pros. As one can see by the various discussion threads on forums about the latest iMacs and FCP X performance, it appears Apple's QA was subpar on that one. I don't see any better performance on iMacs than Mac Pros with these issues that I'm complaining about. It all seems to boil down to how well - or not - the OpenCL implementation is. At least that's what it feels like, since performance with a Quadro 4000 (not a qualified OpenCL card) is significantly worse."

Did I mention that it works better on a tricked out iMac? I'm just kidding.

The nvidia and Mac problems are seeming to continue. I don't know how much you pay attention to the windows side, but CUDA drivers are weird there too. None of this is perfect. It it was, you wouldn't be here and you'd be using the perfect NLE.

[Oliver Peters] "Sorry about being so negative, but I'm starting to give up on this ever getting better."

It's frustrating, there's no question. I've been looking around outside of fcpx and there's no clear answers anywhere I look. Every pro NLE option is really good at some things, not so good at others.

These days, it seems decisions come from a list of what it doesn't do instead of a list of what it does well.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 10, 2013 at 1:48:07 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's frustrating, there's no question. I've been looking around outside of fcpx and there's no clear answers anywhere I look. Every pro NLE option is really good at some things, not so good at others."

Agreed. The sad part is that this project was a good one for X, which is why I used it. The keyword structure helped organize clips and the magnetic timeline made it easy to rearrange the shot/line order within each spot as the client decided on the structure. These were more unscripted than scripted.

But general UI performance is atrocious. The longer you work, the worse it gets. Closing and relaunching the app helps for a while, but after a couple of hours, each keystroke or UI interaction has latency before anything happens. So the bad outweighs the good. I think skimming is partly to blame. You can't properly run X without using skimming (and it's a killer feature!), but this causes the toggle of what's active to freeze up often as you go between event clips and multiple open timelines.

I agree on PPro and cards, although 1/2 res in PPro is the same as "better performance" on X. Overall, I find that PPro is best with RT playback when third party effects are added and Media Composer is best in just sheer manipulation of media and responsiveness with files.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 10, 2013 at 6:57:43 pm

[Oliver Peters] "But general UI performance is atrocious. The longer you work, the worse it gets. Closing and relaunching the app helps for a while, but after a couple of hours, each keystroke or UI interaction has latency before anything happens. So the bad outweighs the good. I think skimming is partly to blame. You can't properly run X without using skimming (and it's a killer feature!), but this causes the toggle of what's active to freeze up often as you go between event clips and multiple open timelines."

I agree it could be better. FCPX is constantly caching a lot of information. Having the biggest fastest computer and hard drives is going to help FCPX, which, as an aside, is why I think a MacPro will be coming.

Atrocious was compound clips pre 10.0.6. I find the interface to be much more responsive today, although I son't use many 3rd party plugs. My 3rd party plug is usually after effects. I am also an alien.

[Oliver Peters] "Overall, I find that PPro is best with RT playback when third party effects are added and Media Composer is best in just sheer manipulation of media and responsiveness with files."

Of course as it this is literally the difference in the foundations of these two applications.

Pr relies on a very fast acceleration engine and free for all media management, Avid has always relied on a tightly controlled media format and structure and gains acceleration through that structure.

They both have their strengths and weaknesses.


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Bret Williams
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 11:20:35 pm

And legacy never had playback problems? Holy bejeezus it was the king of f-in up output through every card imaginable.

I do wish X had a playback offset. That's how you had to get the canvas in perfect sync. Drives me nuts that X is out of sync on the computer screen by about 2 frames.

If video output was a hack, the gamma would be off and you wouldn't have interlacing.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 11:23:49 pm

[Bret Williams] "And legacy never had playback problems? Holy bejeezus it was the king of f-in up output through every card imaginable. "

Don't ever speak ill of FCP Legend.

It was perfect.


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Bret Williams
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 9, 2013 at 11:32:01 pm

Still use an AJA IO on legacy at one place. What's up with AJA not displaying things like stills out to the client monitor in 7? And matrox on legend was a piece of work. I'm happiest with the simplicity of BMD and X. Been doing great on my iMac.

Oliver, are you perhaps sending audio out the internal speaker jack and video out the Bmd? I've done that on matrox and bmd in the past and I get crackly audio or crackly starts. The kind of stuff 7 got all the time. Who else constantly added a 1 frame audio dissolve because of audio pops?


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 10, 2013 at 1:26:30 am

[Bret Williams] "Oliver, are you perhaps sending audio out the internal speaker jack and video out the Bmd?"

Nope. Everything out through the Decklink card.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 10, 2013 at 8:49:04 pm

I'm now in the final stages of this same production. I find that FCP X actually throws picture sync out by 1 frame. I put a TC filter and exported the FCP X project with a burn-in for reference in conforming color graded and mixed files. The FCPXML for the project went into FCP 7 via Xto7. This is for OMF for the ProTools guy and EDL for the colorist. When I compare sync of the picture, audio and the exported clip's TC, I have to offset the file by 1 frame (picture only) to get it in sync. This is based on the visual burn-in from FCP X. I only had synced clips in the project. No detached audio. I've always had the sneaking suspicion that X is very rubbery with sync. I deal mainly with 24fps content and sometimes it's hard to tell what is dead-on in sync. This now seems to confirm my suspicions. Another nail for me, I suppose.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 10, 2013 at 10:17:21 pm

Good luck out there.

It's bumpy.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 10, 2013 at 11:13:15 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Good luck out there.
It's bumpy."


Hmmm... So let's sum up the experience.

The interface has latency when you try to do things quickly.
Playback quality is erratic and unpredictable.
Audio picks up artifacts.
Export may be out of sync.
Rendering/exporting with a number of third party filters causes corrupt frames.
The longer you work on the app, the slower it becomes requiring occasional relaunches.
Frequent "mini beach balls".
Skimming frequently freezes momentarily as the app gets confused about which mode it's in.

Seems like it's pretty bumpy here, too. ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Davidson
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 10, 2013 at 11:36:57 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The interface has latency when you try to do things quickly.
Playback quality is erratic and unpredictable.
Audio picks up artifacts.
Export may be out of sync.
Rendering/exporting with a number of third party filters causes corrupt frames.
The longer you work on the app, the slower it becomes requiring occasional relaunches.
Frequent "mini beach balls".
Skimming frequently freezes momentarily as the app gets confused about which mode it's in.
"


The only ones of these I can corroborate are the interface latency and mini beach balls. Here's some other fun ones to add to your list.

-Sometimes playing back from the beginning of a sequence you'll hear audio but only see black instead of video
-recording audio for scratch VO, there's a 50/50 chance it'll autoselect and go into the wrong event causing headaches later
-sometimes it crashes
-sometimes exports take an insanely long time
-When I'm in an event playing back media inside a clip, I ALWAYS hit the home key thinking I'll go to the beginning like when I'm in a project, but instead I go to the first clip in an event (I know, my fault, but it's inconsistent behavior)
-you get a timeline set up with clip height and everything just the way you like it. CLose the app, open it again, and it's all back to the default (lack of stickiness)
-you make a new project or compound clip, there's no default sequence setting so you better double check that it's what you want it to be. 30% chance it won't be what you want.
-when you preview media in the media browser, if you are working with lowered audio in a comp or project, the media browser audio is locked at full volume, resulting in a marty mcfly guitar test experience

I think you should choose another NLE. Seems like you've given X your best and are not happy. Perhaps your experience with Premiere or Avid will be better, or at least if you have problems they'll be problems you're more comfortable with.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 1:06:58 am

[John Davidson] "I think you should choose another NLE. Seems like you've given X your best and are not happy. Perhaps your experience with Premiere or Avid will be better, or at least if you have problems they'll be problems you're more comfortable with."

I'm well aware of the pitfalls with Avid and Adobe. These are all calculated risks, no matter which way you turn. I'm just tired of risking client projects on software that is increasingly causing grief.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 1:27:12 am

[Oliver Peters] "I'm well aware of the pitfalls with Avid and Adobe. These are all calculated risks, no matter which way you turn. I'm just tired of risking client projects on software that is increasingly causing grief."







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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 1:24:51 am

[John Davidson] "I think you should choose another NLE."

PS: Given your litany of bad experiences, if I'd had THOSE experiences, I would have NEVER decided to tackle some of these big jobs wit X ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 10, 2013 at 11:48:29 pm

It's no wonder people are holding tight to what works for now in fcs3. That's what we're doing for the most part. Waiting.

The other thing is, I don't see most of those problems.

I get the occasional pause as fcpx makes a backup or autosaves.

I get some weird renders with Pomfort.

And yeah, I get a few latent actions.

I've never seen exports go out of sync randomly.

7 had sync problems too if the external audio wasn't imported just right.

Your edl and xto7 summary had so many steps to try and trouble shoot, but I'm sure you tried them all.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 1:21:28 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I've never seen exports go out of sync randomly."

It's not random. Have you ever actually done exports and aligned them by phasing or superimposing against others? The export from FCP X had a burn in with the first spot starting at 1:00:00:00. The actual TC on that file is 1:00:00:01 at that point. Audio, however lines up at 1:00:00:00.

The exact workflow was to export a master file from X and an FCPXML. The FCPXML was converted/imported into FCP 7 and media relinked. Everything was accurate, except that the master file had TC that was offset by 1 frame. Sync audio was offset by 1 frame when you compared sync audio to the source camera file. This points to a 1 frame video delay internal to FCP X for whatever reason. Individual clips were not slipped. The entire timeline picture was shifted by 1 frame in relationship to the TC and audio on the exported file itself.

I doubt that sort of thing has really been thoroughly tested by too many people. Apple? Who knows?

[Jeremy Garchow] "Your edl and xto7 summary had so many steps to try and trouble shoot, but I'm sure you tried them all."

It's an essential part of the equation as the files get sent out of house for mixing and color correction. FCP 7 allows me to reliably reconnect, conform and verify sync. Granted, it's not a workflow that FCP X is even remotely capable of, but that doesn't make it unusual or unnecessary.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 1:37:26 am

[Oliver Peters] "It's not random. Have you ever actually done exports and aligned them by phasing or superimposing against others?"

Timecode, currently, is a huge bag of weird in fcpx.

I wouldn't trust the tc generator working, but that's just me. The tc reader template that was floating around broke a few versions ago never to return.

Every XML round trip I've done has been in sync. I have not compared a side by side analysis, no, but I've never had anything out of sync.

[Oliver Peters] "This points to a 1 frame video delay internal to FCP X for whatever reason."

Does it? Or does it point to a conversion error?

[Oliver Peters] "It's an essential part of the equation as the files get sent out of house for mixing and color correction. FCP 7 allows me to reliably reconnect, conform and verify sync. Granted, it's not a workflow that FCP X is even remotely capable of, but that doesn't make it unusual or unnecessary."

There's edl-x and x2pro. Is it out of sync there?

I don't use Pr to wash my XML files to Color, and AAFs to ProTools, you know?


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 1:44:15 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "There's edl-x and x2pro. Is it out of sync there?"

Facility doesn't own EDL-X. Besides, I have to relink altered files, so I still have to end up in FCP 7 at the end. Facility doesn't own X2Pro either, but it won't do OMFs which I need for this mixer. Plus, X2Pro will not do linked files from QTs in an AAF.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 1:59:58 am

[Oliver Peters] "Facility doesn't own EDL-X. Besides, I have to relink altered files, so I still have to end up in FCP 7 at the end. Facility doesn't own X2Pro either, but it won't do OMFs which I need for this mixer. Plus, X2Pro will not do linked files from QTs in an AAF."

Well, if I was doing this workflow, I'd look at the XML conversion and see if its accurate.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 2:02:40 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Well, if I was doing this workflow, I'd look at the XML conversion and see if its accurate."

You missed the whole point. The XML conversion IS accurate. What isn't accurate is the file generated from FCP X itself. It is NOT IN SYNC. Audio and TC match. Picture - as in the entire timeline - is delayed by 1 frame.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 2:32:29 am

I am trying to follow along here. There's a ton of unknown variables that I'm fishing for. Apologies.

So everything is working and in sync, but the reference movie is off?

Is it just the tc that's off or has fcpx added a frame at the beginning or lost a frame at the end? If you move the video by a frame, you have to make up for that loss somewhere.

What's the tc you created in X?, an empty text generator with a filter? Or compound of the whole sequence with a tc filter?

What if you export a non-window burn, does the tc of the actual file (not the burn) match picture and sequence tc over in 7?

What I'm saying is, there's a lot of steps here.

X can be weird, even the people who like it will say that, but if the XML is in sync...


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 2:49:05 am

It appears that 1 frame is added to the picture head (title generator on primary storyline) only on the exported master file. The burn-in was generated by the TC text generator applied to the project above everything. Not to a compound clip. Inside FCP X, it appears that the TC burn matches the TC display. For all I know, it may be fine inside FCP X, but audio skimming is so goofy and at times so inaccurate that one can never determine sync by viewing inside FCP X. At least not within 1 frame.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 3:18:47 am

[Oliver Peters] "It appears that 1 frame is added to the picture head (title generator on primary storyline)"

I'd be curious if this was doubling a frame or if it is actually adding a previous frame.

I'd also be curious if non generated clip at the beginning solves anything.

Also, cow user Trevor Asquerthian had a sync map to test all kinds of things called "Blits", but it doesn't seem to be available anymore (http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/344/8556).

I can upload it for you tomorrow to see if it works for you, as it did work for me, although I haven't tested FCP 10.0.7

Jeremy


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 1:51:56 pm

Here's a quick test. I re-exported the FCP X project with all filters and connected clips removed (primary storyline only). What appears to be happening is that the first title (a slate) on the primary storyline is being held for an extra frame. This shifts the picture, but not the audio in relationship to the timecode. In the two attached images, you see the first frame of picture in the two exports - with and without burn-in. In the QT7 TC counter, you see that the first frame TC is 1:00:00:01, when it should be 1:00:00:00 if it actually matched the FCP X sequence.





- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 2:05:22 pm

[Oliver Peters] "In the QT7 TC counter, you see that the first frame TC is 1:00:00:01, when it should be 1:00:00:00 if it actually matched the FCP X sequence."

Alright, now we have something to test against.

Does this happen on only that Project or every Project?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 2:12:13 pm

I don't have much media here with me, but I just exported a test and everything lines up as expected.

Picture:



export.png

I'll do more test when I get back to more media.

I am usually pretty strict on checking my tc exports as well, and I have never seen FCPX simply add a frame.

There are subframe edits possible with audio, perhaps take a rally good look at the beginning of your sequence. Something might be shifted?

Are you in 1080p23.976 Project exporting to ProResHQ?


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Steve Connor
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 2:17:01 pm

Just done the same thing, 3 tests, one with a slug at the start, one with a title and one with video.

All were in sync

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 2:17:58 pm

My suspicion now is that the title generator - as the first item on the primary storyline - is the culprit. Yes, the project is 1080p/23.98 ProResHQ. All timeline clips include 2-ch audio, with one track disabled. No filters or transforms added.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 2:27:26 pm

What Title generator did you use?

Using the same settings it stays in sync when I tested it

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 2:32:24 pm

It's definitely the slug/title. I just ran another test and removed slate and gap and started only with the first frame of the first spot and everything is in sync.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 2:43:34 pm

[Oliver Peters] "It's definitely the slug/title. I just ran another test and removed slate and gap and started only with the first frame of the first spot and everything is in sync."

And if you add it back in, is it still off?


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 2:34:33 pm

[Steve Connor] "What Title generator did you use?"

Basic Title placed on the primary storyline. FWIW - although the project setting is ProResHQ, nothing is rendered on the timeline. I am exporting a master file as ProResLT.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 2:38:06 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Basic Title placed on the primary storyline. FWIW - although the project setting is ProResHQ, nothing is rendered on the timeline. I am exporting a master file as ProResLT."

Just tried that and there's still no sync problem here, inconsistencies like this make me nervous!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 3:41:49 pm

Definitely seeing it here. After doing a few more tests, here's what I'm seeing. The Title generator cannot be the first clip in the project. Doesn't matter if it's in the primary or connected, it holds for the first frame and throws the picture off. If you insert a gap before the title, then sync is OK.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 5:16:53 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Definitely seeing it here. After doing a few more tests, here's what I'm seeing. The Title generator cannot be the first clip in the project. Doesn't matter if it's in the primary or connected, it holds for the first frame and throws the picture off. If you insert a gap before the title, then sync is OK."

I have tried this with old Projects and new Projects. I'm not seeing this. Generator or not, all the tc and timing matches and there's no double frames:

hi_oliver.png

Here's BLITS from Trevor. It's PAL, though.:

5424_blits.zip

Needs a Motion Template:

5426_tkysafetitleandgrid.zip

Jeremy


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 5:29:05 pm

Beats me. Just more flaky FCP X behavior.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 7:15:20 pm

This is the project I created it in ... Was a test to try out FCPx ... You might be able to adapt it for non-PAL although from memory (I don't have x installed) the sync test was a QT import... Might have the original motion project for that somewhere



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 7:24:26 pm

Thanks, Trevor.

Indeed there was one sync mov that was 25i.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 11, 2013 at 9:49:13 pm

I just tried another very simple test. Title + gap + 1 clip. Couldn't reproduce the issue either.

Another data point to consider, though. If you recall one of the other series of discussions related to the need for a project, I talked about editing in compound clips. All of these projects were edited as compound clips and then copied & pasted to a fresh project. It could very well be that copy & pasting is doing something funky under the hood. Or breaking apart compounds back into clips. A lot of unpredictable elements at play.

Voodoo!!

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Nicholas Kleczewski
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 12, 2013 at 3:28:12 am

Not sure if this helps you, but I ran into these same issues when I ran FCPX on a MacPro, which I don't think you're using here. But I noticed a significant difference in video output performance when using using a single computer monitor vs 2. Not sure why as I was using a GTX285 at the time which was more than capable in handling all that, but switching off to 1 helped a lot.

The other thing that helped was having quit out of other apps, most notably Safari. I'm betting you've tried these kinds of performance maxouts, but figured I'd mention it.

Then of course last and not preferable is a master export, then either reimport are use Blackmagic's dedicated Media Express program to output to tape.

Hope something works for you.

Director, Editor, Colorist
http://www.trsociety.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Poor video playback via broadcast output
on Feb 12, 2013 at 12:52:43 pm

Hmm... 2 monitors vs. 1 . Something worth looking into. This system is a single 30" ACD, though. Of course, that draws a lot. I'll check if anything else is connected to the back of the card.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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