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FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?

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Walter Soyka
FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 8:46:33 pm

Here's a sincere FCPX or Not question.

I have a project coming up that may be a great candidate for a published Motion rig identity set, but I am worried about recommending this approach and then getting hit with the glitch frames on output bug.

What's the nature of the glitchy render problem? Can it affect published Motion rigs? Does it affect built-in effects, or only third-party effects? Either way, are they any known-safe or known-risky effects?

What's the best approach for dealing with the bug if it does bite?

Many thanks for all input.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 1:34:39 am

The only glitchy renders I have seen is using the Pomfort filter to do a log to 709 color transform.

This also happened in FCP7.

What footage are you going to be using?


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 2:45:09 am

Seems to be a variety of third party filters, including MB Looks, Pomfort and Tonalizer. Workaround is to render 8-bit uncompressed or export via Send To Compressor. It's an Apple problem according to all developer comments. It looks like Motion templates that stick to an Apple workflow (no hacks under the hood) are OK.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Powell
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 2:50:00 am

I still can't figure out what you mean by "Render 8 bit compressed". Where is that an option?

Unfortunately, Send to Compressor doesn't work for me. Compressor Freezes as soon as I drop a setting on it.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 12:39:32 pm

I avoid rendering in the app. I simply export (Share a Master File) of the unrendered timeline, which will render any required timeline sections as the file is being exported. In the dialogue box for settings, you can pick the codec. QuickTime, 8-bit uncompressed is one of the available options. I've experienced render corruption with 10-bit Apple codecs, including all favors of ProRes as well as 10-bit uncompressed.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Godwin
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Feb 4, 2013 at 11:47:27 pm

Back on the original subject of this thread - I got the first green frame glitchy renders today that I've seen. These are on clips without any third party filters at all, only FCPX color correction, and a couple under FCPX standard titles.

I've been using the iMac internal drive (to see how it handles the load) and a Graid firewire drive. Today I received an 8TB Thunderbolt Graid, and hooked up and copied over the events & projects due today, and worked on them, then exported them to vimeo, both rendered and unrendered.

That's when the green flash frames (2 in one project, 4 in another) started showing up. The 2 that appeared and alerted me to the problem were on a video that was unrendered on the timeline and rendered on export and upload.

The variable is the Thunderbolt Graid (and I also updated Coremelt SliceX today to their new version, but was only using it on a couple of clips in the 4-glitch project, and thats not where the glitches occurred. Had I seen the issue before I would have waited on the update.)

So, no issue before the TB drive. For full disclosure I have the TB drive copying much material over from the firewire drive in the background, and maybe that has *something* to do with this, but still. Never saw this before today.

Dropping an unaffected adjustment layer over the offending glitchy section almost always forces a rerender and fixes it.

This is all on the latest FCPX and new 27" iMac, maxed out.

Best,
John


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John Godwin
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Feb 5, 2013 at 9:42:40 pm

I always feel vaguely dissatisfied replying to myself ...

Anyway, about the glitches, I think I know the cause. I was copying all the data on the 4 TB firewire Graid onto my new 8 TB Thunderbolt drive. Apparently that does something somewhere that just strains the resources and causes the green glitches. I've been editing much of today using the new drive (it IS blazingly fast) and no glitches at all. No problems with plugins or anything else. Maybe this tidbit will help someone else.

Best,
John


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Feb 5, 2013 at 9:46:50 pm

Thanks for posting that, it's always useful to know why things have gone wrong

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 5:12:49 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Seems to be a variety of third party filters, including MB Looks, Pomfort and Tonalizer. Workaround is to render 8-bit uncompressed or export via Send To Compressor. It's an Apple problem according to all developer comments. It looks like Motion templates that stick to an Apple workflow (no hacks under the hood) are OK."

Cool. Thank you, Oliver.

I do wonder why 8bUnc works and nothing else does? Doesn't that imply there's a different processing pathway?

And am I understanding correctly that glitch frames only occur when sharing directly from FCPX, and not when sending to Compressor?


[Jeremy Garchow] "The only glitchy renders I have seen is using the Pomfort filter to do a log to 709 color transform. This also happened in FCP7. What footage are you going to be using?"

Thanks, Jeremy. Footage is ProRes 422, coming from a Ki Pro. It's a full green screen project with light compositing but wall-to-wall graphics.

I'm finding that the FCPX keyer is just insanely fast, and has pretty decent auto-settings -- but I'm still struggling a bit refining the edges on hair to the point where I am happy with them. (This may be operator error, and I'm going to give it another go.)

By contrast, in Ae, I was able to pull some great keys with a couple layers of Primatte, at the cost of the longest set-up time and the slowest renders. In Smoke, I was able to pull very good keys including hair with a single Master Keyer node, with the fastest set-up time and very reasonable render times.

I'm confident I could have improved those results by adding another keyer node or by doing some additional edge manipulations, but I had to turn off and stow my electronic devices and return my tray and seat back to their upright, locked positions. The fact that I did all that on my laptop on a plane impressed me, and should make Bill happy!

Back on the graphics side, I'm really, really frustrated with the lack of expressions in Motion. This will not work if I have to expose a dozen parameter to the editor in FCPX that all needed to be manually animated, when this could be reduced to one or two sliders in an Ae template with some expressions.

Back to the drawing board...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 6:14:44 pm

thats interesting - there was a chap asking for some kind of exposed expressions in FCPX down the thread there -

were you looking to rig for brand elements?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 7:37:17 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "thats interesting - there was a chap asking for some kind of exposed expressions in FCPX down the thread there -"

I think I was one of those chaps, discussing exactly this with Shawn Miller -- or did I miss one?


[Aindreas Gallagher] "were you looking to rig for brand elements?"

Yes. I am re-considering my approach to see if I can make this work. I really want to give it a fair go.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 7:41:40 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I really want to give it a fair go."

Feel the power of the dark side young Skywalker.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 7:46:18 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Feel the power of the dark side young Skywalker."

"Noooooo!"

Using Motion instead of Ae does feel a bit like having my right hand slashed off...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 7:50:32 pm

Dynamic Link isn't working. ;)


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 8:00:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Dynamic Link isn't working. ;)"

Not between Ae and FCP7/FCPX! Feature request...

I know you were teasing, but this wouldn't be a case for DL anyway. Rigging/publishing and DL are totally different.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 8:23:14 pm

No, I'm saying between Pr/UltraKey for foregrounds with a templatized Ae for bg.

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 8:41:00 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "No, I'm saying between Pr/UltraKey for foregrounds with a templatized Ae for bg."

Gotcha. That would work fine, except the graphics aren't just backgrounds. There will be separate foreground graphics (carrying both branding and content) that will need to animate on and off, and that's what I'm looking to rig and publish.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 8:29:51 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I think I was one of those chaps, discussing exactly this with Shawn Miller -- or did I miss one?"

no exactly the one - I've just got swiss cheese memory.

I've written speculatively about the rigging being a friend to branding deployment, without really knowing what I'm talking about, you just could sort of see it -

but from what you said above it requires you to expose too many rigging options? What were you going for? Type Colour Graphic element options?

interesting to hear.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX glitchy renders -- causes, severity, workarounds?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 8:55:49 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I've written speculatively about the rigging being a friend to branding deployment, without really knowing what I'm talking about, you just could sort of see it - but from what you said above it requires you to expose too many rigging options?"

I really need to spend some more quality time with it before I can say. This was my first impression, but I may be able to work around it.


[Aindreas Gallagher] "What were you going for? Type Colour Graphic element options?"

Yes. A set of branded lower thirds, backdrops, and a couple other graphic elements -- all of which are available in multiple palettes, and all of which can continuously animate on, animate subtly during their "steady" state, and animate off.


[Aindreas Gallagher] "interesting to hear."

I will follow up as the project continues.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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