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Is FCPX gaining any ground?

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Clint Wardlow
Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 4:53:54 pm

I have been stalking this forum for awhile and not really posting of late. I did post a similar thread awhile back.

What I am seeing in the Cow forum is that here a lot of the pros have adopted FCPX as their go to NLE, but wonder if it is kind of a insular bubble outside the real world.

Most of the editors I deal with still view FCPX with the same disdain that they did when it was first released and steer clear of it. My friend who works in LA says there is no move towards X, that most still edit in AVID or FCP7, though some are looking at PPRO6 as a future option.

Maybe I am the one in the bubble and there is a larger use of FCPX outside of my group. I don't know. I finally got X and PPRO6 but find myself still mostly using FCP7 --mainly due to familiarity. This does not seem uncommon in my circle.

I am not saying one NLE is any better than another. It is just that I do see a lot of posts here from folks that have embraced, either in part or whole, the FCPX paradigm. I am just not seeing it in my world.

So I am wondering where it is that FCPX is being used as a primary NLE? Is it gaining ground? Or have we moved into a world where multiple NLEs are just a way of life? Or maybe even there are more folks out there using FCPX but are embarrassed to admit as much because there is still a stigma held over from the public relations disaster that surrounded FCPX 1.0.


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:09:17 pm

I think it is, slowly.

I see it on one hand on forums, like REDUSER, where no one wanted to touch it, but with all the updates, people are getting more and more interested, toying with it.

I also notice it around me. To give my own example: I didn't want to use it in the beginning, tried it again after 10.0.3, and liked some parts, hated others.
Tried using it more and more, liking it more and more, and now I'm responsible for letting my work switch over completely to FCP X.
We just had our first project on FCP X.

We had one colleague who never had worked with it before. After I had given him some lessons, he said: "I like it. FCP 7 already feels old."
Yes, we both have a wish list, but the program is very good on other areas. I think it also helps that I gave him lessons from someone who already used the program for about 10 projects, making all the 'first-time' mistakes for him minimal. I clearly explained how media management etc is in FCP X, and it's there that often people use FCP X without first reading about it, or looking at some tutorials. It minimizes the bad experience with X.

Another editor came from another country, and both him and our bosses hiring us were all raving about the speed and the quality of the multicam + quality of the chroma key.
There are some things that are easier on 7, but those feature-lists are getting smaller with every update of X.
I've noticed that as more and more editors use it, tell other people about it, those give X another change. And most of the time they find some very interesting things. And I notice that as more and more people use it, it's more and more difficult to ignore it.

I'm sure it's still far from an FCP 7/Avid market share in the professional world, but I'm having the feeling that with every 'big' update (10.0.3, 10.0.6) more and more people come up and say: "maybe I should give it another look."


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Shane Ross
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:14:00 pm

It's gained a LOT of ground...in certain areas. And no ground in other areas. FCP-X isn't for every workflow. It does well for certain types of projects, and in those areas, it's doing well.

Where are you looking for it to gain ground? Feature film? Broadcast television on a major TV network? Corporate video? Web video?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:20:52 pm

[Shane Ross] "Where are you looking for it to gain ground? Feature film? Broadcast television on a major TV network? Corporate video? Web video?"

Not really looking for it to gain ground anywhere. I just read on here a lot of posts by professionals using it, but not seeing it in my dealings with editors I know or work with.

Was more curious whether my experience was more indicative of FCPX's lack of acceptance. Or if what I see on the Cow forum is closer to the mark.

I should say that the folks I deal with mainly shoot commercials or many are low-budget filmmakers. I do know some in local broadcasting. X seems perfectly doable for all of these guys IMHO, but there is a resistance to adopt.


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Mark Dobson
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:52:34 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "What I am seeing in the Cow forum is that here a lot of the pros have adopted FCPX as their go to NLE, but wonder if it is kind of a insular bubble outside the real world.

Most of the editors I deal with still view FCPX with the same disdain that they did when it was first released and steer clear of it. My friend who works in LA says there is no move towards X, that most still edit in AVID or FCP7, though some are looking at PPRO6 as a future option."


Because every activity in FCPX requires a different approach to the way that one has been working (in my case FCP7) it has to be approached with a positive attitude. It is a programme that requires a fresh mindset and a fair amount of time to unlearn / relearn very familiar NLE activities. And it's certainly more suited to smaller production houses and shooter / editors.

Whilst I can understand people viewing it with disdain when it was bought out it has since changed so fundamentally in terms of stability and new features that hopefully some editors would form a different opinion were they to reappraise it.

John Davidson's recent series of films published over on the FCPX Techniques forum provides a really good example of how one company has embraced FCPX and is now reaping the benefits of developing new workflows to transform the organisation of media and files through every stage of the post production cycle.

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/344/16634


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:11:47 pm

[Mark Dobson] "Whilst I can understand people viewing it with disdain when it was bought out it has since changed so fundamentally in terms of stability and new features that hopefully some editors would form a different opinion were they to reappraise it."

Intial reactions often stick whether warrented or not. I think FCPX is still tarred with the same brush (unfairly perhaps)in a lot of ways with the disastrous PR surrounding its release.


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Michael Hadley
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:23:46 pm

Well, I'm in the New York area, working in corporate video mostly, and from that perspective I can say it is. I know of a number of editors who have made the switch, and a lot who haven't. One positive is that it is getting easier for us to find good FCPX freelance editors.

And here's some data points: I shoot all over the place. Was just in Atlanta and learned of an editor who switched and is loving it. Was working with a crew in Tokyo and they had switched. Was shooting in Chicago--FCPX still had a lame rep.

So, it does seem be gaining traction, bit by bit. Seems like still a long way to go to make inroads into broadcast and feature work though.


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Shane Ross
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:34:27 pm

I know of two shops in LA using it...both make content for the web. And Leverage is still reputed to be using it...and that's a major cable show.

At the last LAFCPUG (pardon, LACPUG) meeting, about half the audience there of 150 or so people raised their hands when asked if they use FCX. That's a lot. But then the audience does tend to be filled with a lot of people who use it for their personal gigs or hobby videos....just like we started using FCP.

Another interesting thing...during the STUMP THE GURU's part of the show, 9 out of 11 questions asked were about Adobe Premiere Pro...which meant that we the panel were pretty much stumped, because we had Bill Davis and Phil Hodgetts up there as FCP and FCP X gurus, and me and Monica Daniel as the FCP/Avid experts. The other two questions were FCX based. So I think that is a good example of the trend of things.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 7:57:03 pm

[Shane Ross] "I know of two shops in LA using it...both make content for the web. And Leverage is still reputed to be using it...and that's a major cable show.
"


FYI: Leverage is gone. Its fifth season was its last. Adding to your list, I know of one promo shop in LA using it (John's) plus I just saw an ad for X editors for 'TimeWarner Cable, local sports,' so it is getting into the PEG station slots, which seem like a very good fit for it. I first got introduced to FCP (2) when I was working in a PEG station back at the turn of the century. Its a good place for it to grow.


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Shane Ross
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 8:02:31 pm

[Chris Harlan] "
FYI: Leverage is gone. Its fifth season was its last."


WHAT?! Dammit. I liked that show...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 8:34:39 pm

[Shane Ross] "[Chris Harlan] "
FYI: Leverage is gone. Its fifth season was its last."

WHAT?! Dammit. I liked that show...
"


I hear you. I believe it was a sort of an on the bubble thing, and a sixth season was debated for some time. They were able to--as I understand it; I haven't seen it yet--do a Show Finale and not just end. So, hats off to them.


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Don Scioli
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:35:05 pm

the Northern California film community, industrial, education, feature indie and commercials seems to have embraced FCPX pretty well, especially with 10.0.6. It's also all over the educational market and schools as well.

We're doing all our feature doc work and wine films with it as well.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:54:15 pm

Well, I keep hoping it will gain some traction in Utah, where I am located.

This is for perfectly selfish reasons. Being lazy, I don't want to slog through the tutorial videos. Being cheap, I don't want to pay for a class. I am hoping for another editor to do all the heavy lifting in X, so I can pick his or her brain before I leap in.


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Don Scioli
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 7:53:27 pm

Outside of just p[laying around with X, I really learned how to use it well with the lynda.com series on FPCX :essential training. Well worth the price and very easy to follow and understand.


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Frank Valtellina
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 8:11:36 pm

I came from VelocityQ NLE and using FCP7 I seemed to have taken a step back. With FCPX seems to have made 5 steps forward.


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Mike Jeffs
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 12:20:57 am

[Clint Wardlow] "Well, I keep hoping it will gain some traction in Utah, where I am located."

I'm just making a educated guess but my feeling is as long as Salt Lake stays mainly Avid, and Provo leaning more towards Adobe, (last time I was down there talking to there post production head) I think that FCPX will have quite a hard time gaining traction.

Here in BYU-Idaho we made the decision to become a Avid Learning partner A) we get all the support we need from Salt Lake, and B) as it is still the precieved King of the post world students coming out of here certified will have a little more clout.

That being said we will also be adding Adobe to a lot of our workflows and classes. Not so much FCPX

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 3:10:00 am

[Mike Jeffs] "I think that FCPX will have quite a hard time gaining traction. "

Nope. It's going to be really easy. It's just not going to be particularly fast.

X has killer capabilities that aren't always immediately evident - primarily in the area of being a tool for managing and deploying video as well as just creating video files.

We're still in the era where people are barely learning why it's so different from the NLEs that came before it. Actually, there's still massive misunderstanding about the REASON X does things differently. It reminds me of how I barely realized that DVDs were over for me - until the day I realized that I wouldn't EVER have to burn them for anyone other than a client who didn't understand what had changed.

Until I had a "I can now totally work AROUND DVDs! tool like FCP-X , I didn't understand I could have on-line distribution of my work, directly to clients - heck even distribution to world wide customer groups via YouTube and Vimeo - right from inside my NLE - which would would do everything those plastic discs did and more, faster, better and more securely.

That's a lot like how important I see the change in my editing work since I adopted X. Transformative as to how I see my whole job.

I understand why people want the "comfort" of a traditional style NLE. And there are certainly workflows with specific needs that require tools that X hasn't developed yet. But overall - in my brain, the "classic style" NLE's ship has sailed for the general video editor.

Mark my words, the editing competition will be getting more and more and more like X - just as cel phones in general have gotten more and more like iPhones.

The folks in Cupertino "got it right" once again. Providing a re-think that has advanced the state of the art in general purpose editing.

Not everyone will be comfortable with that at first. And in shops without the time or patience to change - they'll be waiting for the parts of X that work really, really well to migrate to their platforms. But migrate they will. (And I truly hope that the other NLEs drive new features as well - innovation helps everyone!)

But for heaven's sake, stuff like having a robust database that's LIVE in your editing system and having those sharing pipelines that make work distribution orders of magnitude easier are just too big a set of advantages to ignore, IMO.

That realization is infecting the discussion as more and more editors climb the learning curve. And I doubt many of us who know X will ever want to go back to an "old style" program that, like FCP-Legacy - evolved over time to be largely targeted for cutting a 1.5 to 2.5 hour hollywood style collaborative movie.

That's ONE type of workflow. But NOT the most efficient one when massive numbers of editors spend their working careers without EVER cutting "movies" at all.

AVID and PPro can happily compete for those editors. (and as we're hearing more and more, folks with long-form needs are working with X and enjoying that far from perfected process!) Some of the folks who migrate away might think that X will never follows the Legacy pathway of building a system that does one kind of basic editing really, really well (DV based work for FCP legacy) then evolves those tools to encompass the very processes that the "big boys" need.

But I kinda think Cupertino will do precisely that.

The race is on.

Pull your shorts and running shoes on and get yourself a number!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 8:36:11 pm

[Bill Davis] "Mark my words, the editing competition will be getting more and more and more like X - just as cel phones in general have gotten more and more like iPhones. The folks in Cupertino "got it right" once again. Providing a re-think that has advanced the state of the art in general purpose editing."

Nothing like exuberance.

Time will tell if the competition will be getting more and more like X - so far we're almost 2 years in and I haven't noticed anything to support this prediction. If anything we are seeing X get more and more like the competition - 2nd viewer, persistent ranges. Let's see what happens first - another NLE that goes trackless, or tracks showing up in X.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 9:13:57 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Let's see what happens first - another NLE that goes trackless, or tracks showing up in X."

yep. I think even as a perception matter - Apple have to address the issue of the supposed madness of the auto arrange secondary connected trackless timeline.

they don't have the market heft with FCPX to push the other major editing providers in their direction - there is no pressure.
they had say pressure with FCP classic - Avid provided the magic menu to address the issue of FCP editor habits right?

In real terms FCPX is still largely minuscule outside this forum. its got a healthy presence in this forum, and loud supporters, but that doesn't alter the external reality for the software.

No one else needs to conform to the seriously one off curio that is FCPX - the argument would be that FCPX needs to conform a lot more than it already has.
if it wants to gain any kind of broad adoption.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 7:28:40 am

All I'll say is this...

How do you guys even KNOW what X does now?

You're both famously dismissive of it. If you use it at all, I can't imagine thats for anything beyond launching it and descending into an immediate state of deep angst and horror.

From your constant comments, it seems obvious that you guys hardly spend any truly significant time doing practical deadline-driven work in X, so I'm at a loss as to how your opinions about how it might or might not operate should carry much weight.

And if you don't currently fully understand how it works, why are you somehow qualified to judge whether it will gain traction in pro editing over time?

All you're doing is sampling a class of your editing friends and/or shop buddies. Not exactly a planet wide balanced sample.

Have you guys secretly changed your positions and are now quietly spending hours upon hours editing with X so that you KNOW what it's capable of, rather than just taking an opinion based on reading other peoples impressions? If so tell us! Honestly, if you've just kicked the tires a few times and turned your back on it - which is kinda the impression I get from your posts - then why exactly should someone value your opinion regarding the effectiveness of something you don't regularly use?

Just asking.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 2:46:32 pm

[Bill Davis] "How do you guys even KNOW what X does now?"

From you, dear Bill, you tell us all the time.

What I like most about your little bursts of pique is that they always come when your asked a question you don't want to answer.

So I'll try again. It's a question in 2 parts.

Name one way that FCPX has caused competitive products to emulate it.

Secondly, has FCPX added both a 2nd viewer and persistent ranges during the last year, and if so doesn't that make X more similar to other NLEs?

[Bill Davis] "From your constant comments, it seems obvious that you guys hardly spend any truly significant time doing practical deadline-driven work in X, so I'm at a loss as to how your opinions about how it might or might not operate should carry much weight."

I have not expressed any opinions about how X might or might not operate. My opinions are strictly about how you word your opinions. Of that I have a great deal of experience.

[Bill Davis] "And if you don't currently fully understand how it works, why are you somehow qualified to judge whether it will gain traction in pro editing over time?"

That's a marketing and business judgement, not a function of how the editing system operates. If product efficiency were all that matters for success I'd still be cutting on *edit. My only opinion about X's future is that no one knows; although I do enjoy being linked to Aindreas, so thank you for that.

Just think of me as the hyperbole police Bill. I have nothing pro or con to say about X as an editing experience, but I have a lot to say when people make statements about it's future that I find hyperbolic and unjustified.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 4:35:30 pm

[Herb Sevush] "but I have a lot to say when people make statements about it's future that I find hyperbolic and unjustified."

I will merely point out that the perspective of someone who actually uses it and understands what it's capable of - might be a bit more germane to it's future utility than the opinions of those who don't understand it very well.

So while you might find such statements "hyperbolic and unjustified" - I'd ask the general question who's in a better place to judge? Someone with actual knowledge of the program's functions... or someone who's knowledge comes from at best, cursory investigation.

I'm arguing that I KNOW the program at least reasonably well -while you and Aindreas apparently do not.

You both have anecdotal knowledge, but very little direct user knowledge .

So it's fair to point that out.

I'm not saying I can't be wrong about things regarding X. I most certainly can. But my opinions are at least based on direct experience, whilst yours appear to be largely based on supposition.

I'm comfortable arguing that somewhat strengthens my opinions and weakens yours.

No more or less than that.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 5:28:59 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm not saying I can't be wrong about things regarding X. I most certainly can. But my opinions are at least based on direct experience, whilst yours appear to be largely based on supposition.
"


Bill, you keep making this argument, but it is faulty in the extreme. Both Aindreas and Herb, and myself, for that matter, have opinions based on OUR direct experience in the business of video/media production. If what was actually being discussed was "What is the best way to dip to black in FCP X" you would have a point, but that is NOT what is being discussed.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 5:31:58 pm

[Bill Davis] "But my opinions are at least based on direct experience, whilst yours appear to be largely based on supposition. I'm comfortable arguing that somewhat strengthens my opinions and weakens yours."

The opinion we are discussing is again quoted here:

Mark my words, the editing competition will be getting more and more and more like X - just as cel phones in general have gotten more and more like iPhones.

While it's true you have a lot more experience with X, I will argue that I have a lot more experience with the NLE competition you are so pleased to forecast about and an equal knowledge of the market for iphones, so I guess that makes us both 1 win, 1 loss and 1 tie when it comes to experience vis-a-vis the quote in question.

Feel free to exalt in the wonders of X all you like, I never intrude on your joyful proclamations, but when you start pontificating on the state of the NLE market as a whole, you need to be a bit more accurate.

And I notice you still haven't rebuffed the substance of my critique, I would imagine that's because you can't.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 5:58:50 pm

I believe hover scrub in Adobe may have been influenced by skimming in FCPX.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the organizational features make into other NLEs as well such as smart collections.
I can imagine a track based version of Connected Clips as an option, making its way into other NLEs as it simplifies selections.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:13:12 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I believe hover scrub in Adobe may have been influenced by skimming in FCPX."

Scrubbing in thumbnails has been a Smoke feature for ages, and FCP Legend had picon scrubbing.

What's new about the skimmer is removing the interaction required to place footage in the viewer, not rapidly reviewing footage from a bin.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:21:33 pm

[Walter Soyka] " Smoke feature for ages"

One can point to many features that other products have used for some. I've heard that from people who've used some Windows NLEs saying things in FCPX previously existed. I think a factor is the size of the user base or perceived competition from the product. FCPX is probably a bigger "influencer" than Smoke. Of course the major price cut in Smoke may result in it too influencing others. Please note WHEN Adobe added hover scrubbing. Maybe it's coincidental... maybe not.

[Walter Soyka] "What's new about the skimmer is removing the interaction required to place footage in the viewer, not rapidly reviewing footage from a bin."

Actually it does place the footage in the viewer. It's just that you don't need to click on anything to make that happen.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:27:08 pm

[Walter Soyka] "What's new about the skimmer is removing the interaction required to place footage in the viewer, not rapidly reviewing footage from a bin."

[Craig Seeman] "Actually it does place the footage in the viewer. It's just that you don't need to click on anything to make that happen."

That's exactly what I said. It removes the interaction required (the click) to place footage in the viewer.

And I love skimming. One of my favorite features in FCPX.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:36:44 pm

[Walter Soyka] "And I love skimming. One of my favorite features in FCPX."

I wouldn't be surprised if "direct viewing" as part of skimming makes its way into other NLEs of course.



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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Feb 5, 2013 at 3:18:31 am

[Walter Soyka] "That's exactly what I said. It removes the interaction required (the click) to place footage in the viewer.

And I love skimming. One of my favorite features in FCPX."


I'd also argue that "skimming" in Legacy was severely limited.

X took the behavior and baked it so deeply into the interface that the user is allowed to employ it literally everywhere in the interface.

I can skim the clip in the event, skim the clip in a search result, skim the storyline, skim a connected clip, skim a project, skim an audio track...

I'm not sure that's particularly equivalent to how "skimming" was expressed in Legacy.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:49:45 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I believe hover scrub in Adobe may have been influenced by skimming in FCPX.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the organizational features make into other NLEs as well such as smart collections.
I can imagine a track based version of Connected Clips as an option, making its way into other NLEs as it simplifies selections."


So we've got one "I believe", one "I wouldn't be surprised if" and one "I can imagine" - vs the fact that Apple put a 2nd viewer and persistent ranges back into X. For the moment I will stand with my claim that X is being pulled by NLE standards more than it's pushing others to adopt it's paradigms.

Whatever faith based system you employ to project what will happen in the future carries no more weight than that of earthquake forecasters - in other words, none.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 7:07:04 pm

[Herb Sevush] "s the fact that Apple put a 2nd viewer and persistent ranges back into X. "

You can add an "I have no doubt Apple will be adding features common to some other NLEs as well."

[Herb Sevush] "For the moment I will stand with my claim that X is being pulled by NLE standards more than it's pushing others to adopt it's paradigms."

Multiple persistant I/O points is common to other NLEs?
Apple's 2nd viewer is like others (personally I do think it was "rushed" to market by user demand).

These things always go both ways. It's the nature of the market. If Apple thought no one would pull design elements from their products they'd have zero reason for secrecy. Note that most of the features they made public were in other NLEs. They revealed only "catch-up" features for the most part.

Unless you think there's a way to PROVE a feature came from another NLE all your'e going to get is "I believe." In fact, given the craziness for patents including interface functions and design, if any could PROVE it, it would likely be followed by a law suit.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 7:19:06 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Multiple persistant I/O points is common to other NLEs?"

Persistent I/O points are. Which is what many people were asking for.

[Craig Seeman] "Apple's 2nd viewer is like others (personally I do think it was "rushed" to market by user demand)."

Which is exactly my point.

[Craig Seeman] "These things always go both ways."

Also exactly my point.

The original statement by Bill, once again, was this:

Mark my words, the editing competition will be getting more and more and more like X - just as cel phones in general have gotten more and more like iPhones.

As you have just pointed out Apple put in the 2nd viewer as a response to public pressure to be more like standard NLEs. I see more of this than the other, but even if the flow is equal both ways, then Bill is still wrong.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 7:40:50 pm

[Herb Sevush] "As you have just pointed out Apple put in the 2nd viewer as a response to public pressure to be more like standard NLEs. I see more of this than the other, but even if the flow is equal both ways, then Bill is still wrong."

Granted Bill may have only been talking about half the equation but I do think other NLEs will adopt some FCPX like features.

Of course I can't "prove" it but hover scrubbing in Premiere Pro was influenced by Apple's skimming.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 11:33:35 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Of course I can't "prove" it but hover scrubbing in Premiere Pro was influenced by Apple's skimming."

I'm... inclined to think so too. I remember at one of the first demos - I think at DV.com, in interview, the adobe guy seemed to be almost deliberately nodding at apple - he said something along the lines of "this is a really nice UI feature - we think this kind of thing works really well" badly remembered, but I remember thinking quite strongly that he was nodding to apple.

The FCPX timeline is still a mad bag of cats though. no one is ever touching that thing in competitive terms.
Apple have that all to themselves.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig Seeman
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Feb 1, 2013 at 12:33:50 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "The FCPX timeline is still a mad bag of cats though. no one is ever touching that thing in competitive terms."

While I don't think it's a mad bag of cats I do think it's a nice platypus though. I don't think they'll be another like it. I do think a form of connected clips, track based equivalent, might make it into some other NLE.

Personally I think FCPX is the best cat herder in the business.



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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Feb 1, 2013 at 4:30:51 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "The FCPX timeline is still a mad bag of cats though. no one is ever touching that thing in competitive terms.
Apple have that all to themselves.
"


Can we assume that we all actually know that this is how you feel about the FCPX timeline so you don't have to mention it on a daily basis.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Feb 2, 2013 at 1:39:32 am

well, as each day is a dawn, that dawn calls you forth to kick that timeline in the groin.
As it is currently organised.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:09:26 pm

[Bill Davis] "Mark my words, the editing competition will be getting more and more and more like X - just as cel phones in general have gotten more and more like iPhones."

This is why Franz cautions against analogies...

Have you used an Android phone lately? Or a Windows phoneI think they've leap-frogged the iPhone in user experience. If you look at common iPhone feature requests, the world is asking Apple to make the iPhone a bit more like other smartphones.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:17:31 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Have you used an Android phone lately? Or a Windows phoneI think they've leap-frogged the iPhone in user experience. If you look at common iPhone feature requests, the world is asking Apple to make the iPhone a bit more like other smartphones."

Which is why I say Apple sells ecosystems. iOS offers a stronger ecosystem of apps, in part, because it's more profitable for developers. While one might argue "features" all metrics I've seen show that iOS users buy more from the developers. They also use their devices on the web more. The latter is important to advertisers.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:30:06 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Which is why I say Apple sells ecosystems."

Everyone sells ecosystems. IBM, Sun, Microsoft, Google...


[Craig Seeman] "iOS offers a stronger ecosystem of apps, in part, because it's more profitable for developers. While one might argue "features" all metrics I've seen show that iOS users buy more from the developers. They also use their devices on the web more. The latter is important to advertisers."

So the iPhone is not the product sold to us. We are the product, sold to developers and advertisers?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:49:56 pm

[Walter Soyka] "So the iPhone is not the product sold to us. We are the product, sold to developers and advertisers?"

Well yes actually. Developers are attracted to iOS because they make more money. They get better ROI on their work. Advertisers want to reach people who are more likely to spend money. The latter I think actually had an impact on the use of Flash.

What the iOS user gets though is a better ecosystem. Better Apps and better Web experience. This is why "market share" is sort of a red herring. Google makes money from advertising, not Android OS (which is free). The last numbers I saw is that Google makes about as much (or maybe more) from iOS as Android.

Any individual Android (or Windows) phone may have some better features. Android in particular is very fractured (and Windows mobile OS is still small) so the best features don't necessarily yield a good target.

iOS users are far more likely to upgrade their OS than Android. I believe a recent study showed something like 60% of iOS devices in use are on 6. Since the "Open" Android OS is actually controlled by the carriers who often are way behind in offering OS updates and often not at all for some phones, the best parts of the OS have smaller user bases. The numbers of the best hardware that use them is only a subset of total Android market.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 7:20:00 pm

Craig, none of this had anything to do with Bill's point that other NLE developers will ape FCPX as other phones have aped the iPhone, nor my contention that Android is making iOS look a bit old fashioned.

You are arguing that Pr's hover scrub was influenced by the FCPX skimmer and not by scrubbing thumbnails in Smoke or FCP Legend, nor as an independent solution to a common problem.

Would you then argue that FCPX's real-time performance is derivative of Premiere, or maybe Liquid?

Innovation is not limited to Cupertino. Good ideas come from everywhere. Sometimes independently, sometimes via cross-pollination.

As long as the good ideas keep coming, I'm happy.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 7:36:01 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Innovation is not limited to Cupertino. Good ideas come from everywhere. Sometimes independently, sometimes via cross-pollination.

As long as the good ideas keep coming, I'm happy.
"


My favorite Woody Guthrie quote, via Pete Seeger: "Aw, he just stole from me, but I steal from everybody."


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Craig Seeman
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 7:44:19 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Would you then argue that FCPX's real-time performance is derivative of Premiere, or maybe Liquid? "

I did mention that users of other NLEs have noted the FCPX added features that have pre-existed. Actually Apple's history is not really "revolutionary" but often just re-imagning pre-existing features in a new way or new combination. One can say that of the iPod for example. One can even argue that the iPhone and iPad were simply "re-thinks" of elements that had pre-existed. In fact, in a lot of their products, Apple is often "late to the game" with a feature because they want it to work "their way." That's the same whether it's the iPhone or FCPX.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 7:29:18 pm

Craig, none of this had anything to do with Bill's point that other NLE developers will ape FCPX as other phones have aped the iPhone, nor my contention that Android is making iOS look a bit old fashioned.

You are arguing that Pr's hover scrub was influenced by the FCPX skimmer and not by scrubbing thumbnails in Smoke or FCP Legend, nor as an independent solution to a common problem.

Would you then argue that FCPX's real-time performance is derivative of Premiere, or maybe Liquid?

Innovation is not limited to Cupertino. Good ideas come from everywhere. Sometimes independently, sometimes via cross-pollination. FCPX could learn from the other NLEs, just as the other NLEs could learn from FCPX.

As long as good ideas keep coming from everyone, I'm happy.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 5:35:53 am

Hey Mike! Ain't seen you in awhile. How's it going? I watched that last cold front come down over Idaho and it did NOT look pleasant!


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Michael Gissing
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 7:59:45 am

In my area dealing with editors who are on broadcast docos, still not a single request to online & grade an FCPX project. That said I no longer have concerns about editors using it thanks to third party developers like X2Pro.

I have now built and installed a WIN 7 screamer with CS6. After a few days getting it setup and working on a short DSLR edit, grade (da Vinci) and OMF to Fairlight for sound post I am really happy with performance, ease of use and lack of any need for mental retraining. I deliberately kept the Pr keyboard layout and frankly tools like trim, warp stabilize and even the basic title tool is nice to jump onto with zero training. I then watched a few free tutorials and picked up some finesses.

Frankly I want to see FCPX develop and fill more niches. As long as the system can talk happily with others I couldn't care less what people use to edit and I sure as hell don't want AVID, Adobe or Apple to be the dominant player. I like the diversity and feel it has driven a lot of advancement in the past two years. I think Apple did us all a favour by stepping backwards and then forwards.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 8:04:29 am

[Michael Gissing] "I sure as hell don't want AVID, Adobe or Apple to be the dominant player"

Definitely. I'm also pretty certain that I want to be fully comfortable on multiple systems. Not quite knowing which way to go has made me choose several ways, and I think I'm a far better editor for it.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 8:09:31 am

Frankly Chris, one of the reasons I went CS6 is that it allows edits from many systems to be integrated and finished. So does Smoke but it is overkill for my finishing work and not available on WIN7.

I agree that editors need to be multi system skilled more so than ever before. I find the rants that one system can rule them all to be a Mordor fantasy.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 8:23:51 am

[Michael Gissing] "Frankly Chris, one of the reasons I went CS6 is that it allows edits from many systems to be integrated and finished. So does Smoke but it is overkill for my finishing work and not available on WIN7.

I agree that editors need to be multi system skilled more so than ever before. I find the rants that one system can rule them all to be a Mordor fantasy.
"


True. One of the things I've got going is that I have Red and Continuum on both the Avid and Pr., and it is pretty cool to flip materials between them. I have them on 7, too, but they are a version behind; I didn't upgrade the license on that (though maybe my Pr lic. will work on it; I'll have to see) because it is sort of time to start letting go. Or at least start to begin to let go. Or, you know, think about starting to begin to let go.


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Mike Jeffs
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 6:03:29 pm

Chris,
We are alive in Idaho. The snow sucks at first but it she does lend itself to pretty video.

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 7:36:04 pm

Yeah, we are getting hit in Utah also. It is pretty, and I enjoy a good snow storm as long as I have a warm place to retreat.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 9:30:26 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Yeah, we are getting hit in Utah also. It is pretty, and I enjoy a good snow storm as long as I have a warm place to retreat.
"


Clint! Where are you Utah? I've spent a lot of time there over the years, particularly in Dixie.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 9:41:04 pm

I live in Salt Lake City, but have spent much time in other parts of the state. Love the Cedar City and St. George areas in southern utah.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 9:48:33 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "I live in Salt Lake City, but have spent much time in other parts of the state. Love the Cedar City and St. George areas in southern utah.
"


I like the Virgin River country quite a bit. And Cedar Breaks--what a sight! Kolob--that whole area--is beautiful.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 9:55:14 pm

Those areas are beautiful. Love to camp in Kolob Canyon. Utah has such a wide range of geology. They are in Central Utah, not southern, but you should check out Capital Reef National Park and Goblin Valley. The film in Goblin Valley a lot when they need a crazy landscape that looks like another planet.


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Mike Fernanandes
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Feb 3, 2013 at 6:51:04 am

What do you want to know...

I've been using it for a while in my shop and I'm always happy to talk about X.

loudyeti.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 8:39:45 pm

One of the places I'm seeing it really catch on, is with people who are primarily cinematographer/shooters and use editorial as an adjunct to that. X seems to be particularly camera-friendly.


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 8:45:09 pm

[Chris Harlan] "One of the places I'm seeing it really catch on, is with people who are primarily cinematographer/shooters and use editorial as an adjunct to that. X seems to be particularly camera-friendly."

I think Chris is absolutely correct with this observation.

High on the list for the X developers was building software for a world where there were way more camera types and formats generating files - and subsequently the need for workflows that weren't like a traditional network show where someone at the executive level can say "we're shooting on THIS format - with THESE cameras - and editing on THIS platform."

I've got footage on my rolloff drive right now that originated in GoPro, DSLR, RED, and DVCAM cameras.

And I've got to build stuff with all of it.

That's the world X was designed to fit into, IMO.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Kevin Monahan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 11:18:59 pm

We've had a HUGE influx of Premiere Pro users since FCPX was launched. Not sure if FCPX is gaining ground, but Premiere Pro certainly is. We've seen a lot of interest in the professional broadcast realm, specifically.

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 3:29:31 am

[Kevin Monahan] "We've had a HUGE influx of Premiere Pro users since FCPX was launched. Not sure if FCPX is gaining ground, but Premiere Pro certainly is. We've seen a lot of interest in the professional broadcast realm, specifically."

Not surprised, old friend.

I never underestimate the desire of people not to move too far or two fast when it comes to important changes in life or business.

You guys have a great program. And I know you're working hard to make it even better. I wish you well.

If you're in SF for the SuperMeet, say Hi to Mike H and the gang for me.

Take care.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Kevin Monahan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 11:06:06 pm

[Bill Davis] "You guys have a great program. And I know you're working hard to make it even better. I wish you well."

We've only just begun! LOL
Yes, I'll be giving a Premiere Pro class at the 'meet. Sorry I won't see you there.

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Fabrizio D'Agnano
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 11:30:46 pm

My guess is yes.
There are a lot of different flavors in the "professional editors" container.
Professional means one is earning his own living doing something, so it could be a guy hired to edit on a director's note in a large facility were audio is going to be sent to another facility and the same goes for color and so on, but also a guy working as free lancer on weddings and events, or an infinite amount of other niches where some paid video work of any kind is involved. Myself, I run a one man shop, as a director/cameraman/editor....., specialized in outdoors documentaries that are broadcasted by an important satellite tv network. Coming from former versions of FCP, my first reaction was angry, maybe more emotional than else, seeing I could not import projects from FCP/ (guess what happens if a new Word does not allow you to open .doc or .docx documents), that everything had been somehow messed up, that I was lacking a lot of features that I needed, that clips were named in a not meaningful way so that I could not really use them outside of FCPX.... Then, after the latest update, I decided I wanted to jump the gun and really try, since I could not stay with FCP7 forever, and that I was sure I did not want to go back to a Windows based editing system. So I bought a couple of Ripple Training tutorials and there I went with two brand new paid documentaries on a short time term delivery. I can say that, for my line of work, the FCPX is really good. Skimming is precious, as is the ability to work on the timeline while importing or building an archive. The magnetic timeline is something I got to like after a while, and I consider the ability to work or at least archive files that are not huge sized as pro res is great. There are still some things I don't like, some things I think are missing, and some I maybe still have to learn or get used to, but at the moment I am certain I can work faster in FCPX. Not faster because I can skip a few clicks here and there or use a shortcut, as in my line of work that time is not relevant, since I direct while I edit, but because I can move through the media faster and better. Even if I had to click three times instead of one to achieve the same result, it would still be nothing for me. Using keywords skimming and metadata organization to find the clips I need among one hundred really makes a difference. Of course the inertia of a large editing facility is huge compared to a small one in terms of money, of time and so on, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of small facilities/freelance editors would end up adopting FCPX very soon, and it would be a lot of licenses. I guess if the first release was a bit different, and if a lot of people who had not even really tried the sw did not release bad reviews (not that the first releases did not deserve it), together with people who tried it and thought it was not for them, the licenses would be many more.
Regards

Fabrizio D'Agnano
Rome, Italy


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Sjon Ueckert
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 28, 2013 at 11:52:54 pm

A simple question; have you ever had to add visible time code to a 90 minute video for transcription? If you are using FCP7, be prepared to let your system render overnight (it takes about 7 hours - and I have a very powerful system). If you are using FCPX, it takes about 30 minutes. Does seeing the "writing video and audio" blue bar drive you nuts? That is something you will never see in FCPX. I understand that people have been upset by Apple's change (comments like iMovie on steroids, etc.), but I have completed about 15 large projects on FCPX and I love it. When someone brings me an FCP7 project (I have been using FCP since Ver 1 and even did some beta testing for Macromedia when they were developing the program), it now depresses me. I can move so much faster in FCPX. It takes a little getting used to, but once you get past the "paradigm shift," it really makes sense.

Sjon Ueckert
Austin, Texas



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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 12:30:53 am

[Sjon Ueckert] "A simple question; have you ever had to add visible time code to a 90 minute video for transcription? If you are using FCP7, be prepared to let your system render overnight (it takes about 7 hours - and I have a very powerful system)"

Not to side track the thread, but what were you doing to make it take so long? I recently worked on a doc with around 250hrs of footage and every minute either got logged or transcribed and footage that arrived in the morning was ready for transcription or logging that afternoon (this included copying footage onto a local drive then using Log and Transfer to rewrap the file into a QT for FCP). I'd drop the clip in Compressor (our custom settings included the TC burn in) and let it go in the background as I continued to work in FCP. It wasn't as quick as 30min but it sure as heck wasn't 7hrs either.


-Andrew




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Shane Ross
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 12:45:05 am

And I use Compressor for this...and it doesn't take nearly as long. Export QT reference files...take into Compressor, add the TC Reader...encode:

http://library.creativecow.net/ross_shane/visible-timecode/1

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Kannan Raghavan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 1:47:26 am

I've been editing for over 16 years now, 7 years with Avid MC and then switched to FCP. I've also been test driving CS 6 PrPro. When FCP X was released, I didn't think much of it especially with all the negative reviews it got. I mainly edit sports highlights (mainly golf) on-site as part of the OB. I gave FCP X a shot a couple of months back and never went back to FCP 7 or PrPro. For what I need, it is super fast. I use a retina MBP 15", Matrox MX02 and a Promise R4 8TB. I'm just loving FCP X. I don't think I'd go for FCP X in a shared environment or cutting long form. But personally, I wouldn't want to cut long form anyway. FCP X first and then PrPro second for me for what I do.

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


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Paul Neumann
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 2:52:41 am

I use both FCPX and PPro CS6. I tend to use PPro more for the After Effects/Photoshop/Illustrator/Audition integration. Dynamic link, especially for audio is invaluable to me. I have two shoots tomorrow that can easily be done in FCPX and I just might. I say that alot and end up in PPro most of the time. Whatever works I reckon.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 5:16:24 pm

I might conceivably have mentioned this beforehand - but it's dead as a door nail in London. except of course for craig slattery.

two big calls for Premiere Pro were Associated Press opting for PPro as their backbone editing system deployed across all news gathering, and the BBC hedging for PPro, buying thousands of licenses for it.

Its worth noting that there is not a single story like that for FCPX - anywhere in the world. Apple couldn't even cobble together four post houses using it for their work studies - they've got like two or three? and some german dude?

FCPX is fine -please everyone enjoy it and let's all hold hands - but this forum is kind of a bubble. I thought the fact that nearly all the stump the editor questions put to bill and phillip were on PPro was *somewhat* telling.

I do think FCPX will develop a niche - and maybe grow from that - but I think the post FCP demise other shoe is finally going to start dropping this year, (it has to at some point right?) and I think it is very likely to be PPro shaped for the most part, avid otherwise. I've heard privately that PPro is in testing at a number of places across London - again - absolutely no one is referring to FCPX in those types of conversations. No one.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 5:44:49 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "two big calls for Premiere Pro were Associated Press opting for PPro as their backbone editing system deployed across all news gathering, and the BBC hedging for PPro, buying thousands of licenses for it."

I'm sure the Beeb have the licenses, but I don't know anyone at the BBC who's actually used it and I certainly haven't heard of anyone who has. I'm sure it's in use, but not as widely as the number of licenses might suggest.

[Aindreas Gallagher] " but I think the post FCP demise other shoe is finally going to start dropping this year, (it has to at some point right?) ."

I think you're going to be surprised by the number of people that go to FCPX, I'm not saying it will be anywhere near the domination that 7 had, but you'll be surprised.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "FCPX is fine -please everyone enjoy it and let's all hold hands - but this forum is kind of a bubble."

As is all of our areas of work. If you judged NLE's by the ones that people and Companies I know use, then Avid doesn't exist.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "absolutely no one is referring to FCPX in those types of conversations. No one."

That's no surprise is it, If I was a facilities manager testing it then I probably wouldn't mention it either!

Fact is look at the tone in this "bubble" it's changed, there is certainly more interest in FCPX amongst the sceptics than there was and there are more and more people sticking their heads above the parapet to say they use it too.

As a great man once said "the tilde is turning"

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 5:58:26 pm

[Steve Connor] "I think you're going to be surprised by the number of people that go to FCPX, "

given its two years later and no one is touching it or discussing it over here - bar craig slattery - I'm not sure where your future tense is steve, a lot of people utterly despise it - that won't entertain a discussion of it even. Not to mention everyone got burned by apple killing FCP and server in the first place. that really burned a lot of houses. the idea that they are going with X - its just really really implausible.

[Steve Connor] "That's no surprise is it, If I was a facilities manager testing it then I probably wouldn't mention it either!"
I've spoken to a few steve some at some pretty big places - I know what they're testing, and its not X - in one case it was initially, they were even coding custom software to support deployment and cover deficiencies, but then they basically kind of gave that up. They're drafting more Avid in, and they are currently testing premiere.

that place has a *lot* of seats, and they were the only one I ever heard of even testing FCPX - no one else is going near it.

[Steve Connor] "Fact is look at the tone in this "bubble" it's changed,"

that's just because we're being nicer to you. we had a meeting about it. seemed like the right decision. no need to beat you over the head all the time.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Neil Goodman
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 8:05:25 pm

[Steve Connor] "[Aindreas Gallagher] "FCPX is fine -please everyone enjoy it and let's all hold hands - but this forum is kind of a bubble."

As is all of our areas of work. If you judged NLE's by the ones that people and Companies I know use, then Avid doesn't exist.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "absolutely no one is referring to FCPX in those types of conversations. No one."
"


Just outa curiosity, where do you live? Obviuosly in LA, Avid is a huge player with a huge install base. Ive seen PPRo start to enter its way in the equation, but only two freelancers with there own bays i know use FCP X in LA at the moment.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 8:13:04 pm

[Neil Goodman] "Just outa curiosity, where do you live? Obviuosly in LA, Avid is a huge player with a huge install base. Ive seen PPRo start to enter its way in the equation, but only two freelancers with there own bays i know use FCP X in LA at the moment."

The South Coast of the UK a long way from London!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 9:27:47 pm

[Steve Connor] "The South Coast of the UK a long way from London!
"


But thanks to the Internet you can still call it Beverly Hills, adjacent. (note: LA real estate joke.)


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 9:49:10 pm

not anywhere near hastings by any chance?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 10:17:38 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "not anywhere near hastings by any chance?"

Further West, nearer Ringwood and Bournemouth

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 10:39:35 pm

I appear in Hastings occasionally. We could have scowled silently over pints.

Bournemouth does some pretty tasty film courses right?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 11:02:03 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Bournemouth does some pretty tasty film courses right?"

It does and some very good bars too!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 6:03:30 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] " think it is very likely to be PPro shaped for the most part, avid otherwise. "

I've decided that I'm not going to be primarily on one platform anymore. That's the way it used to be, before FCP took hold of me. I'd move between many different NLEs with ease. Of course, there were many less keyboard shortcuts to learn, and really only so many options, because what I was actually doing, in all cases, was building an EDL. Then, for a period of more years than I should have allowed, FCP answered all my needs. I've found the last two years invigorating, though I'm sure I could have been happily invigorated by something other than NLE "revolution." [In ironic quotes, in case someone somehow misses that.]


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 6:07:20 pm

for my part I'e been shifting to being a proper attempt at a mograph video editor combo lately - I started out in motion graphics originally, its been good getting full bore back into AE again - also might explain my slight, slight PPro preference.
If PPro takes hold across my area it so, so suits me a treat.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Julian Smith
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 7:41:03 pm

I've been lurking here for years, but have just decided to join..

From what I've seen, X has a future, not sure how bright, but it has a future.. There are a lot of things going on at BVE next month which feature it.

Myself, I'd like to use it for film editing, once I've got the hang of it.


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 10:13:26 pm

Andreas,

Dude, the only "bubble" in play here is, IMHO the one located about 3 inches behind your eyes.

In point of fact, The third slide in my presentation consisted of four boxes arrayed left to right roughly as follows-

A - I use FCP-X for ALL my editing.
B - I use FCP-X for some editing along with other NLE tools.
C - I'm studying or interested in FCP-X but don't use it for any paid work at this time.
D - I've heard about it but never personally used FCP-X

The purpose of the slide was to make sure I targeted the presentation to the actual understanding level and needs of that audience.

I fully expected that most of the audience would be in C with some folks in B. I expected few in D and thought there MIGHT be one or two in A.

To my shock, - about 20% of the crowd raised their hands for A. (20 or so out of around 100 in the crowd.)
(when Mike H gets the meeting video posted you can see the clear shock on my face at the number of "all X editors" in the crowd if your so inclined.) BTW B and C were pretty balanced.

I had the view from the stage but there were enough others in the crowd who post here, so I'll let them pipe in to agree or disagree with my assessment of the poll results.

It would be simple to "spin" the reality by simply saying that the reason that all the "Stump" questions were about AVID or Premier Pro because people can't figure those programs out for themselves and therefore need group help - but that would be every bit as biased as what you keep trying so desperately to imply.

You weren't there, so I respectfully suggest you try not to describe things about which you have no direct knowledge.

I tried to be fair in my presentation saying nothing to dismiss the choices of others.

I think that's the right way to advocate for a good tool.

YMWV

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 29, 2013 at 10:36:50 pm

[Bill Davis] "I tried to be fair in my presentation saying nothing to dismiss the choices of others.

I think that's the right way to advocate for a good tool."


sure - It's hard to deal with the dinner jacket urbane conversationalist bill davies mind you... :)

But In short Bill - yes absolutely.

FCPX has every opportunity to advance, and to be fair - I throw rhetoric at apple like no one's business, but you can't say I haven't engaged with the software to some degree.

that said - you can apparently count on the fingers of one hand the number of facilities/post/ editing houses in the states that have plumped for FCPX. Apple had to bolster their workplace stories with a german dude, and that left them a thumb.
You can count almost no broadcasters visibly deploying right? If I'm going to seriously consider a piece of software that literally requires me to unlearn what I know and understand of editing practise as represented by all the other software, that it no way resembles, and that other, more traditional (?), software has virtually all the market share -
as someone entering the market - what is the realistic incentive for learning FCPX when any FCPX jobs posting is a haley's comet? It is on Mandy anyway, and mandy churns out massive amounts of editing postings across the US. Premiere pops up quite a lot lately though.

In London - which is a major media market, with pretty massive US subsidiaries, a teeming longform doco ecosystem, and countless corporate based shops, you don't need a hand. there is quite literally no one Bill. except craig slattery. and he's not employing.

we are at two years and counting.

As to the meeting - you are absolutely right - I was not there, I just quoted the questions arising from the audience - apparently a lot of them dealt with Adobe Premiere Pro. As you say - there may be many reasons for that.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 4:41:47 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "we are at two years and counting."

Bad Math.

Intro'd at NAB in April 2011 - so the two year anniversary of it's ANNOUNCEMENT will be in a couple of months.

It didn't actually ship until June. So we're barely past 1.5 years.
(And the development over that time has been pretty spectacular.)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 8:00:30 pm

[Bill Davis] "the development over that time has been pretty spectacular"

for sure - its not the development i was speaking to - it was the lack of professional adoption.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig Seeman
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 8:12:21 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "for sure - its not the development i was speaking to - it was the lack of professional adoption."

Maybe people missed this. Maybe I should have started a new thread.
Yes it's still only isolated cases we can point to and these are individual seats in a facility, not entire facilities... but it's the kind of creeping progress that has to happen... and that is happening.
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/47331



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Herb Sevush
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 8:27:06 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Yes it's still only isolated cases we can point to and these are individual seats in a facility, not entire facilities... but it's the kind of creeping progress that has to happen... and that is happening."

Yes, creeping progress.

I have yet to hear of any Avid or Adobe facility switching to X. Instead most of the FCP7 stories are about facilities switching to Avid or Adobe, with a very few just barely trying out X - in the article you posted, which I thought was very good by the way, the editor explained how he had to switch back to FCP7 to finish. He then talked about how maybe next year they could go the whole way with X. So instead of the position of 2 years ago where FCP was eating up the competition, we now have 2 years of the competition eating up the FCP7 market, with X creeping in to slowly regain a small portion of the market Apple used to own.

And from this we are to project that the gravity of the X paradigm is now bending the orbits of the rest of the NLE market? I don't think so.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 9:10:04 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I have yet to hear of any Avid or Adobe facility switching to X."

As much as I love FCPX I don't think that's going to happen all that much. I think the biggest hurdle is the learning curve. It's much easier for most to move from FCP7 to Avid or Premiere Pro than any of the aforementioned to move to FCPX.

That's I bring up "creeping." It will happen to the extent individual editors, already familiar with FCPX and, likely, the workflow needed for a specific project, to step forward and offer it. If that project proves an improvement in workflow then maybe other editors with either, step forward if they already know it, take some of their private time to learn it if the success motivates them. None of this is whole sale facility movement. It'll creep. That's why I've mentioned FCPX with "win" (gain facility use) by attrition.

The problem is it's very difficult (maybe impractical) to expect an entire facility to move to FCPX very quickly compared to an FCP7 facility moving to Premiere or Avid.

As much as people say FCPX is "easy to learn" that's most often for someone who has nothing to unlearn or for those few who have the down time to learn it.

Thinking back to my transition from Avid to FCP (legacy) I had been an Avid editor since it's inception and after about 11 or 12 years sat down in front of FCP 1.25 I believe and it took me about a day to grasp it and about two more days to really discover its differences than Avid. It took me longer to be proficient but I had a good basic foundation of FCP in just a few days.

You can see in this forum that even the most ardent proponents of FCPX (including me) will often say you either need to watch tutorials or spend significant amount of time on it to grasp the advantages of FCPX over other NLEs (where it has advantages. I make no claim it does in every department). I don't think most facilities have that kind of time luxury. So FCPX will move in by creeping. When someone can show, in their own facility, that it's a worthwhile endeavor, will its use within a given facility will grow.

Granted there certainly are a few facilities that are transitioning to it but that's often because they have an on staff (or regular) advocate who has proven its merit. Obviously if they see a big improvement they may move quickly. For example, if a facility sees a 20% reduction in delivery time on FCPX projects they may be motivated to hasten the move.

[Herb Sevush] "I thought was very good by the way, the editor explained how he had to switch back to FCP7 to finish. He then talked about how maybe next year they could go the whole way with X."

Yes, this is a good example of prepared caution. They were prepared to jump back. They had a person confident enough in FCPX and familiar with the series, to use it. It will still for other editors to be ready and willing. He just provided concrete motivation with deliverables.

[Herb Sevush] "And from this we are to project that the gravity of the X paradigm is now bending the orbits of the rest of the NLE market? I don't think so."

Gravitational influence happens at very very long ranges.
I think Adobe and Avid and others are well aware of Apple's ability to compete in any market it chooses to enter. Apple's in a much better position to take big risks and that means they can push innovation very hard. Even if only portions of FCPX are innovative, they'll be looking at how to compete back. I seriously doubt they've determined FCPX is out of the market. I'm sure they're looking at the creep.



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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 9:38:44 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It's much easier for most to move from FCP7 to Avid or Premiere Pro than any of the aforementioned to move to FCPX."

Premiere, yes. But the move to Avid requires a bit of committed rethinking as well.


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Feb 5, 2013 at 3:26:00 am

[Herb Sevush] "we now have 2 years of the competition eating up the FCP7 market, with X creeping in to slowly regain a small portion of the market Apple used to own.

And from this we are to project that the gravity of the X paradigm is now bending the orbits of the rest of the NLE market? I don't think so."


Woah, nellie.

Once again you're stuck on thinking that "the FCP-7 market" was something that was exclusive to high end facilities editors. It was most decidedly NOT. Not unless you think there are 2 MILLION high end facility seats scattered around the planet.

I'd bet there are more likely no more than a hundred thousand of those kind of users.

The rest of the FCP-Legacy paid owners were more likely to be guys like me than guys like you.

Every corporate editor, every event videographer, every small town ad agency doing 30 local car spots , ad nauseum was every bit as important to Legacy's growth as the big city large shop guys.

And I think it's this elite attitude that keeps so many here from understanding the development and growth dynamic that X is serving.

Exactly like Legacy, it's coming out of it's infancy trying to be the best tool for the MOST editing functions first. And to view it as something that FIRST has to compete with AVID and even PPro is to woefully misunderstand the REAL modern world of content editing.

Or so I believe.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Craig Seeman
Moving from Final Cut Pro 7 to FCPX on French TV series Lazy Company
on Jan 30, 2013 at 5:21:53 pm

Rather than start another thread I'd thought I'd add this here given the relevancy. I apologize if it breaks protocol to point to the location but I do think it deserves our attention.
I think there are key take aways here (for me at least).

• An editor (assistant editor) who was familiar with the series moved the post from 7 to X so he had direct experience with both NLEs using the same material.
• It's another example of X workflow and I think we need to see more of that.
• It's an example of how FCPX takes hold IMHO. Usually a single editor already familiar with X, already familiar with the content, given the freedom to personally make the move (not implying the facility is moving) to exhibit the viability of FCPX.


Moving from Final Cut Pro 7 to FCPX on French TV series Lazy Company
http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/1033-moving-from-final-cut-pro-7-to-fc...



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Keith Koby
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 30, 2013 at 7:31:50 pm

I don't have time to read the rest of this thread. We use it for broadcast materials. We will be using it increasingly more this year.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 1:14:08 pm

[Keith Koby] "I don't have time to read the rest of this thread. We use it for broadcast materials. We will be using it increasingly more this year."

Just curious, but why?

Speed? Creative? "Cost"?

You are one of us weird one who actually like it? ;)


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Keith Koby
Re: Is FCPX gaining any ground?
on Jan 31, 2013 at 4:53:28 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Just curious, but why?

Speed? Creative? "Cost"?

You are one of us weird one who actually like it? ;)"


All of the above + growth potential. Also, I find that editors who get actual exposure to it using it for work fall in love with it.

It's by no means perfect, but is growing in the right direction and is useable now.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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