FORUMS: list search recent posts

Trying new stuff

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Bernard Newnham
Trying new stuff
on Jan 26, 2013 at 11:50:23 am

A few threads back, Lance Bachelder wrote -

"I left and built an uber PC just for CS6 and Vegas. I'm talking multiple SSD's, nVidia GTX graphics etc...

After using Premiere on some paying gigs I can honestly say it's the worst piece of crap I've ever seen - even simple things require so many extra clicks, windows, dialog boxes - just a horrible NLE."


Having read this here, I worried about using PPro and possibly doing paid training work on it.

Well, I got paid by the BBC over the years to try out various NLEs (and a lot of other stuff) so I have some history in comparing systems and putting corporate money into buying them. And now - in my retirement (sort of) I've spent some time with Premiere Pro CS6.

It's another editor - just another editor - it's straightforward to learn and easy to use. Its logic follows that of FCP7, Edius, Avid etc etc. It runs fine with AVCHD rushes, which probably means it will work well with the general run of stuff. Half the world is likely to be ahead of me in this already, but I'm just reporting.

I've been doing cut-down work mostly so far, and discovered that the "ripple delete clip" keyboard shortcut - backspace in FCP, but shift-delete here - was a bit of a pain, so I changed it to "x", giving me a run of keys x,c,v,b that did useful things without moving too much.

Just the usual stuff when changing systems. No "extra clicks" so far, though I'm happy to accept I've got a way to go yet. I doubt though, that I'm going to have any major problems.

I can't see how Mr Bechelder could have such problems, given he's just come from FCP7, as it's almost identical in operation. Perhaps he could explain in more depth so that others can have a go at solving them.

B


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 26, 2013 at 1:04:32 pm

I suspect Lance may have been extremely eager to report that he found PPro unsatisfactory. and that FCPX answers all his issues.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 26, 2013 at 2:08:17 pm

My guess is that Mr. Batchelder didn't take the time to learn Premiere, then got thrown to the wolves on the paying gigs because he didn't know what he was doing yet. It's really easy to hate something when you have to do it under pressure and you haven't done your homework. That's just my guess - I've been in that position before. Never throw stones at anything until you know it inside/out.

That said, any of the mainstream NLEs these days will do the job for you. All of the perceived shortcomings of any of them are usually based upon - the NLE they learned editing on - the NLE they loved, but is no longer around - the ideal NLE, which only exists in their mind's eye. I've used Edit*, AVID, and Premiere Pro, in that order, and I loved and hated many things about all of them - it's when you know them, and use them on a daily basis that you can put worth a real opinion.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 26, 2013 at 2:29:19 pm

I truly think its a mistake to claim Pr works just like fcp7. It does a disservice to Adobe for all the hard work they've done, it sets false expectations, and while there are commonalities, they are really different and follow different logic especially when it comes to workflow.

It's best to treat Pr as a new NLE otherwise you will never learn its true strengths and weaknesses and expect it to work just like fcp7, when it doesn't.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 26, 2013 at 5:36:49 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I truly think its a mistake to claim Pr works just like fcp7. It does a disservice to Adobe for all the hard work they've done, it sets false expectations, and while there are commonalities, they are really different and follow different logic especially when it comes to workflow."

What about the workflow is different? I used FCP7 extensively last year for the first 6 months, and then got Premiere CS6 when it came out. Of course there are differences in the details, but as far as a typical "workflow" goes, aside from the loss of the need to transcode in CS6, it's very similar.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 27, 2013 at 12:26:54 am

[Gary Huff] " Of course there are differences in the details, but as far as a typical "workflow" goes, aside from the loss of the need to transcode in CS6, it's very similar."

I think it all stems from how it doesn't need to transcode.

It's completely different from FCP7 from import, render, export, and encode.


Return to posts index


Chris Harlan
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 27, 2013 at 4:44:29 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's best to treat Pr as a new NLE otherwise you will never learn its true strengths and weaknesses and expect it to work just like fcp7, when it doesn't."

Highly agree. The thing with Pr is that it is enough like FCP7 that, if you come from 7, you get lulled into thinking it is just like 7, and then, because it does some fundamental things differently, you can get trapped in a none-to-pretty way. With X or Avid, it is clear immediately that it is not the same beast, and that you have to relearn your approach. With Pr, you can just wander in and pretty much start working, without realizing that you didn't understand, for instance, how to properly configure your timeline's audio, and just assumed that you could easily monkey with the channel assignments down the road. Or you learn too late that you really SHOULD have set up a native timeline before you began cutting. I don't know what happened with Lance, and I, certainly, have found the current version of Pr to be officially bitchin', but when I do hear complaints about what a cluster fork Pr is, it usually has to do with people getting nailed by thinking they were in known territory and then finding that they were not.


Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 27, 2013 at 12:24:21 am

[Joseph W. Bourke] "because he didn't know what he was doing yet. It's really easy to hate something when you have to do it under pressure and you haven't done your homework. That's just my guess - I've been in that position before. Never throw stones at anything until you know it inside/out.

That said, any of the mainstream NLEs these days will do the job for you. All of the perceived shortcomings of any of them are usually based upon - the NLE they learned editing on - the NLE they loved, but is no longer around - the ideal NLE, which only exists in their mind's eye. I've used Edit*, AVID, and Premiere Pro, in that order, and I loved and hated many things about all of them - it's when you know them, and use them on a daily basis that you can put worth a real opinion."


Heh.. can I just copy and paste this text into the next thread that pops up about how FCP X is inadequate? ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


Return to posts index

Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 27, 2013 at 5:14:20 am

Sure, Charlie - just don't put my typo in - it should be "forth" in that last sentence, not "worth".

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


Return to posts index


Charlie Austin
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 27, 2013 at 7:31:02 am

[Joseph W. Bourke] "Sure, Charlie - just don't put my typo in - it should be "forth" in that last sentence, not "worth"."

You got it! lol. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


Return to posts index

Lance Bachelder
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 27, 2013 at 9:08:52 pm

I probably should never post after a couple of glasses of Merlot - pretty harsh. That said, while I admit there is some lack of expertise with Premiere CS6 on my part, I have no lack of expertise as an Editor and don't believe Premiere is a good NLE and nothing like FCP7. Not having something as simple as sync indicators is just the tip of the iceberg of the problems I see. Yeah I know there are no sync indicators in FCPX either...

As far as the extra clicks, the only way to show this would be to do a live side by side with other NLE's to show just how clunky Premiere 6 is. This doesn't mean it can't be used for any type of show and for those who've never used another NLE day in and day out in a high-pressure, broadcast or feature film type environment, they'd never know what I'm talking about and never know there are issues.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



Return to posts index

Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 12:33:17 am

Expertise as an editor in no way qualifies you to throw stones at something you don't fully understand - nor does two glasses of Merlot. But everyone's entitled to an opinion - however, an informed opinion is always preferable to putting something down as "clunky" when you haven't mastered it.

I've been a professional musician for many years (as well as a designer and motion graphics artist), and I've found that the people with the strongest opinions against a type of music, are those who've never played a lick of that style. I've heard "Jazz sucks!" a million times by people who don't know more than five chords, and woulnd't know a two-five progression if they tripped over it. If you haven't mastered it, don't knock it.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


Return to posts index


Lance Bachelder
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 10:30:21 am

I was trying to be nice saying I didn't understand it fully. I was an Adobe beta tester from 1.5 through CS3 and it was one of the most frustrating experiences I've ever had. I'm a 20 year Photoshop and Illustrator pro and have used After Effects and Premiere since 1998. I'm one of the most open minded Editors you'll ever meet and have used just about every NLE out there from Edius to Vegas to Avid (including myriad of versions of Media Composer and DS), FCP since version 1 and Premiere for payed work that ranges from low budget docs to $60 million Hollywood features. I've been editing since 1986 when I started cutting 16mm via flatbed and I've been a forum leader here on the Cow for 11 years and though I'm an opinionated bastard I can back it up with decades of pretty decent work.

There isn't a single thing, not one. that Premiere does as well or better than FCPX 10.07. It's garbage as far as I'm concerned and I'll never use it again - to attempt to "master it" would be a colossal waste of time. I will continue to use the rest of the Adobe Suite via the Cloud subscription and highly recommend it to others.

As far as your jazz analogy - I've played guitar since I was 10 and love all forms of music - not just jazz - so shut your Phrygian pie hole you elitist prick.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 2:16:10 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "There isn't a single thing, not one. that Premiere does as well or better than FCPX 10.07"

Third party plugins don't randomly place green frames in your footage. That's one thing Premiere does that's better than FCPX.

Premiere can import an After Effects project and use it like footage without the need to render. That's a second thing Premiere does that's better than FCPX.

Premiere has tracks. I see no benefit for the magnetic timeline after using it. It's about 50/50 for me in doing what I want it to do and it fighting me.

Premiere can freeze a still from footage in a sequence in one monitor window and then you can move the skimmer head to a different point in the sequence to show it in the other monitor. You can't do this in FCPX, something Premiere also does better. (the Event Viewer that was finally added can only show clips in the Event window, so you can't color correct one clip in the storyline to another clip in the storyline after grading has been applied).

I can archive an entire project in Premiere by moving just a single folder instead of having to manually wrestle with projects in two different folds if I want to keep everything properly organized. Sure, I can have a RAID archive with "Final Cut Events" and Final Cut Projects", but then, what projects are in there? I'd have to open up the folders to see. Instead, with the way Premiere works, I can just have the folder properly named and save a list of all the root folders on the archive, thus knowing exactly where each project is, and only needing to copy ONE single folder back to a work drive if I have to redo it. Plus, that old project that was done in CS3? Yep, I can re-open that, no problem. Can't do that in FCPX.

[Lance Bachelder] "As far as your jazz analogy - I've played guitar since I was 10 and love all forms of music - not just jazz - so shut your Phrygian pie hole you elitist prick."

Sadly, this is pretty much the expected attitude from someone championing FCPX.


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 29, 2013 at 7:50:28 am

[Lance Bachelder] "There isn't a single thing, not one. that Premiere does as well or better than FCPX 10.07"

Although it isn't elegant it captures from a nine pin tape deck via SDI and also plays a sequence out to one.

Another is that it can open a FCP7 project via XML and FCPX XML and an AVID AAF all without third party software. So that's two obvious advantages to someone like me that does broadcast finishing from other editors. AE round tripping has already been mentioned and +1 for warp stabilizer.

For those reason plus many more I have moved to Pr as a finishing tool. I don't mind opinionated rants, but for someone of your experience Lance I think this is childish dummy spit.


Return to posts index


Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 29, 2013 at 1:12:46 am

[Lance Bachelder] "There isn't a single thing, not one. that Premiere does as well or better than FCPX 10.07. It's garbage as far as I'm concerned and I'll never use it again - to attempt to "master it" would be a colossal waste of time. I will continue to use the rest of the Adobe Suite via the Cloud subscription and highly recommend it to others.

As far as your jazz analogy - I've played guitar since I was 10 and love all forms of music - not just jazz - so shut your Phrygian pie hole you elitist prick.
"



this is getting out of hand?

there are a ton of things lance has never spoken to - his use of the open timeline - how he felt being given the opportunity to use proper dynamic JKL trimming, which honestly does tickle me, the advanced native effects set including the generally delicious stuff like curves, and good god almighty - hello warp stabiliser?
but: more basically isn't the discussion the opportunity to exit FCP7 to something that isn't Avid - because once they get something like transition lockin: good luck with the Avid pricing - so FCPX? FCPX which has very very very - yes indeed very minutely- little visible broad uptake?

Please try the Production houses, the edit renting shops, the broadcasters, the boutiques, the indie edits, the flower sellers, the bricklayers, any random person you meet - because it is beyond incredibly hard to find FCPX on the ground anywhere in the continental USA or Europe. there are about twenty guys on this forum though.

The point is that there is, basically, a requirement, a market requirement, for something quite like FCP - market standard, open, largely inexpensive, non hardware dependent, relatively easy to transfer to.

the reason there is a requirement for that is because there is a massive, massive FCP skills base homeless editor catchment in the market.

one man bands on merlot really do seem crazy - and to be clear I do mean crazy - for FCPX though.
they provide no guidance for industry shifts, and FCPX currently largely exists in the bubble of this debate forum. to quote a recent poster.

PPro is very very nice editing software I personally find, and like FCPX - it is about to get rapidly better at a rate of knots.
PPro's only failing is that it largely matches and tracks the working habits and practices of those soon to be exiting FCP7.

ah no, but wait - thats not a failing at all is it? - so good luck with the tilde key, the ridiculous timeline, and the roles you feel sure are going to be, any moment now anti-gravity style reordering themselves into tracks inside a year total lunacy babbling.

For all its bizarre charms, FCPX didn't get picked by Associated Press as a backbone editing system across untold seats, and the BBC didn't make a hedge - buying thousands of licenses for it.

that happened with PPro.

given that there is a gigantic mass of FCP based seats, and FCP based editors - what do we really think is most likely to happen? Everyone spontaneously plumps for the lunatic (timeline anyway) editing system, from a company making all its profits from phones, software that has been absolutely industry ignored to date?

or does the market shift to a cost dependable, open, FCP modelled editing system software, (from a company financially tied to its success), that just took a quantum leap in its most recent iteration?




http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 1:25:12 am

[Lance Bachelder] "As far as the extra clicks, the only way to show this would be to do a live side by side with other NLE's to show just how clunky Premiere 6 is."

I don't think you'd need to go that far...you just kind of, you know, be more specific.

"Clunky" means nothing to me. In the other thread about FCPXs shortcomings, I very explicitly listed issues I had encountered while editing a complete project in it, things that I am actively utilizing in Premiere with the project I'm currently working on. I find Premiere CS6 to be nearly elegant in usage and incredibly powerful. I love the addition of the trim commands that closely mimic the controls in FCP where you can trim in and out points on the timeline for instance. I use those all the time. I love the fact that it works with practically every single piece of footage I could possibly use.

I do agree that the Sequence creation is clunky in needing to pick the overall codec that is in use, and that's something I'm sure Adobe will end up address. Ultimately, I think it's a not the end all breaking point, just something that could use spiffing up. I love the addition of the adjustment layer, love Dynamic Link. I love the ~ key command that maximizes whatever portion of the interface your mouse is currently hovered over. I love how the key-framing works.

I love the fact that if I use a 3rd party plugin, that it won't cause green frames in the video.

I love the fact that I can do psuedo-After Effects-lite compositions using embedded sequences with Photoshop layers and keyframes.

So many specific things I have just mentioned. Always helps if you talk in specifics, and not in just generalizations because then people have a hard time whether you have a point, or are just talking shit.


Return to posts index

Dave Jenkins
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 3:03:56 am

I think one of the big issues is that it's been referenced as like FCP7. So I went into CS6 with that state of mind. I couldn't change the audio tracks and had to copy everything out of that timeline into another timeline with the correct audio set up. That said to me, I don't need to go backwards, which is what CS6 feels like to me. An FCP 6.5 equivalent. Sure I don't know Premiere but if I have to learn a new way I'm going with a system that is a fresh start with new ideas and workflows. FCP X is far from perfect but it has a new fresh direction. I just started play the guitar and bought my first guitar. It didn't feel right so I went and found one that fit me. It's all person style, use what fits you!

Dajen Productions, Santa Barbara, CA
MacPro Two 2.66GHz Quad Core - AJA Kona LHe
FCS 3 OS X 10.7.4
FCP X, Adobe CS6, Logic Pro, Squeeze, Filemaker


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 3:59:26 am

[Dave Jenkins] "So I went into CS6 with that state of mind. I couldn't change the audio tracks and had to copy everything out of that timeline into another timeline with the correct audio set up."

Could you explain this issue more?


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 4:19:29 pm

[Gary Huff] "Could you explain this issue more?"

Do you ever have to export multichannel outputs or do you mostly work stereo?


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 4:22:17 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Do you ever have to export multichannel outputs or do you mostly work stereo?"

Always stereo.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 4:28:33 pm

[Gary Huff] "Always stereo."

OK, then you don't know how difficult is it to work with multichannel outputs in Pr unless you know form the beginning the exact track mapping you need.

FCP7 let you switch back and froth from multichannel to stereo, or let you edit a multichannel output in a stereo mix-down for monitoring.

It's much easier.

Adobe has done some work in this arena, but more work needs to be done.

On the other hand, there's also powerful audio features that Adobe has that FCP7 doesn't in the form of submixes and multichannel tracks.

It's a yin and yang.

For people that need multichannel output all the time, Pr can be frustrating when you come from FCP7 as FCP7 had a few more options to change things around during the edit.

Pr has less.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 4:33:52 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "For people that need multichannel output all the time, Pr can be frustrating when you come from FCP7 as FCP7 had a few more options to change things around during the edit."

Thanks for clarifying that. Just wanted to have a head's up about it in case I ever run across that potential issue.


Return to posts index

Lance Bachelder
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 10:07:35 am

Sounds like you're in love. So there's no need for you to be hanging out here anymore. Go sell crazy someplace else.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 11:04:48 am

what's crazy? getting drunk on merlot, and then pretending to have enough competence in PPro that you can say its clunky?

just so you can say that FCPX solves everything? Which is all you wanted to say in the first place?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 4:25:48 am

[Lance Bachelder] "As far as the extra clicks, the only way to show this would be to do a live side by side with other NLE's to show just how clunky Premiere 6 is. This doesn't mean it can't be used for any type of show and for those who've never used another NLE day in and day out in a high-pressure, broadcast or feature film type environment, they'd never know what I'm talking about and never know there are issues.
"


Sorry, Lance. You just aren't bothering to dig in deep enough. Which is fine; no one says you have to. But you shouldn't be throwing stones either. Premiere's sync indicators aren't as transparent as Avid or FCP 7, but are quite usable for anyone who knows what they are doing. Just open up the info window, turn it into a small column and then you have available all timecode in every track. There's no color-coding like in FCP7, but its very useable for monitoring sync. If you were bazitching about this from the POV of an Avid or FCP7 editor, where the sync break is spelled out in the timeline with exact frame info, I might feel your pain; but in the same breath that you are whizzing on Pr, you are lauding X which doesn't allow any sync monitoring--after breaking clips apart--at all. So, I'm happy to see you back and hanging around, but, yes--I cry foul.


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:50:37 am

For me the best thing about PrPro CS6 is the "curroupt my project" feature not so many are talking about. When this happens and there is zero support from Adobes end it rings very bad from my PoV.

Regarding "many clicks" I've found the same in PrPro vs FCP7. I don't have the concrete examples in front of me but I was struck by it on a project last fall.


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:58:35 am

[Erik Lindahl] "For me the best thing about PrPro CS6 is the "curroupt my project" feature not so many are talking about. When this happens and there is zero support from Adobes end it rings very bad from my PoV. "

Spoken like someone with little experience and lots to say.


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 7:07:31 am

And you are adding what your comment? I don't have much more to say really. Reading Walters article this is a common issue evedently.

Am ruling out CS6? No, it could potentially be the king of NLE's in my domain as we are heavy AE-users. But my few initial tries with the application have been rough. Versions prior to CS6 where slow and / or not usable for proper video monitoring (again, somewhat of a "known issue") and now in CS6 things seem solid - great or amazing even - until we ran into a very nasty case of project courpotion.

And the "more clicks" is something I experienced also. For example I think FCP7 assumes a few things the editor wants that PrPro asks. This seems to be the case when setting i/o's the viewer and timeline for edits.


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 7:24:38 am

I am very much enjoying the irony in his thread

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 8:07:39 am

[Steve Connor] "I am very much enjoying the irony in his thread"

Yeah, well. You, know--Karma.


Return to posts index

John Godwin
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 1:01:23 pm

"I am very much enjoying the irony in his thread"

Pretty wonderful.

Best,
John


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 8:06:43 am

I wasn't trying to add anything. I was just responding to the snark in your comment. I have never worked on an NLE that hasn't had some sort of file corruption issue from time to time. I know that you got bit, and I'm sympathetic to that, as I'm sympathetic to people who have been bitten by various iterations of X and FCS. I understand that you didn't get the feedback you wanted from Adobe, but that's pretty much the case with anything you are not paying support for. Certainly, that is true with Apple.


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 8:36:15 am

I do wonder who was "snark" in his comments. How do you know anything about my experience in the first place? I added a few lines of my experience to the discussion, given in a thread I don't quite understand what it has to do in the FCPX-board, but never the less, I contributed something to the discussion. You… well yeah…


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 9:00:55 am

[Erik Lindahl] "I do wonder who was "snark" in his comments. "

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I was referring to your sarcastic post. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the term "snark."

[Erik Lindahl] "How do you know anything about my experience in the first place? "

When I read your original post, I wondered if there was some serious problem with Premiere that I was missing. I did a search on "Premiere" and "corrupt" to see what kind of recent issues might have arisen. I saw your name, and read through the thread where you were presenting/debating your recent problems.

If you do a similar search with any other NLE, you'll find similar issues with similar numbers. I am in no way discounting the inconvenience you experienced, and am sympathetic to anger you feel. However, I think you were greatly over expressing the problem in a, well, snarky sort of way. The reason many people aren't talking about it is that it isn't happening to many people. True, Walter B. does mention it in his article, but also mentions easy workarounds, and that he feels Adobe is working hard to find out what the issue is.

[Erik Lindahl] "I added a few lines of my experience to the discussion, given in a thread I don't quite understand what it has to do in the FCPX-board, but never the less, I contributed something to the discussion. You… well yeah…"

This is not an FCP X board. If you more carefully read the title, you'll see that it is a forum that was set up to debate whether or not FCP X is the best choice for any given editor. Some of us would prefer that the title change to something a little more neutral, and a little less demeaning of FCP X, but the powers that be have thus far shown no inclination to do so.

As far as adding to the discussion, well--we'll have to disagree about that.


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 9:09:40 am

To actually add something to the discussion:

Exporting of timelines in PrPro is quite bad compared to FCP (even FCPX from the little experience I have of it). The human interaction before you can actually achieve a batch-export is far from optimal. This could be part of the "more clicks than I'm used to" phenomenon. Why on earth Adobe hasn't just implemented an AE-like export in PrPro is beyond me.

People can show rendering X frames in app A vs B vs C is Y% faster but sometimes dumb planning of an app actually makes the rendering part, for some work flows, not count that much. We output a lot of shortform broadcast masters and here FCP7 shines.

On the flip side PrPro shines in the fact it can actually play back the MPEG2 streams we send to the broadcaster. One just has to turn off the meta-data writing the CS-package does to files or they are seen as broken by the transport system we use.


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 9:32:39 am

[Erik Lindahl] "Exporting of timelines in PrPro is quite bad compared to FCP (even FCPX from the little experience I have of it). "

I can relate to that. I work in short form, and in easy formats like ProResHQ, so its not a hardship for me. But I hear it is quite troublesome for long form, especially with a deadline. I don't get the extra clicks you are talking about, but that may be because I work with CODECs that are particularly easy for Premiere, and once I set up a timeline template, I can use it over and over, both for preview and for export.


[Erik Lindahl] "People can show rendering X frames in app A vs B vs C is Y% faster but sometimes dumb planning of an app actually makes the rendering part, for some work flows, not count that much. We output a lot of shortform broadcast masters and here FCP7 shines.
"


I agree with this completely. I don't know if it is because it is what I'm most used to or not, but I still make most of my broadcast master variants in FCP7. I find it extremely fast and stable. Currently, I'm enjoying cutting spots on Avid, but I like to go back to FCP to do all of the title variations--Next, Tuesday, Tonight, Tomorrow, etc. Its possible that X might be good for this too, but I haven't tried it yet.


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 9:49:05 am

We've in the same boat here. We do all our masters for broadcast in FCP7 still.

In PrPro you have to export each sequence manually per sequence. You can add them to a batch-list in AME but that oddly takes a lot of time per sequence one is sending out. In FCPX there is a similar issues, but the background-processing seems far most "instant" (and from my experience exporting broadcast stuff FCPX is much faster than PrPro or FCP7). A "backwards solution" is to add sequences to AME via AME but this again is quite slow compared to Batch Export in FCP7 or what Adobe already has in AE.

So the above involves more clicks and more human interaction waiting time which in our case is often worse than rendering times (as these even in FCP7 are relatively fast). And on my machine and the formats we work with (Uncompressed or ProRess QuickTime), the actual export in FCP7 is as fast as PrPro. As mentioned FCPX is far faster but FCPX has some quality issues in working with SD which makes it a less optimal choice here.

Again, on the flip side, I love the fact that PrPro allows me to edit image sequences and playback, for example, MPEG2 streams out to the broadcast monitor. I don't however feel very "safe" in the application yet given our issues with either corrupt projects and / or the fact the program will accept corrupt media. Given the "all native" approach this potentially is a problem when dealing with less than optimal H264-files from unknown sources. Some kind of bullet proof validation-process would be appreciated here.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:01:39 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "I don't however feel very "safe" in the application yet given our issues with either corrupt projects "

Are you having these issues currently in CS6? I have been bitten by corrupt projects before, but not with CS6 so far, though I still make backup projects myself as a kind of "best practices" workflow.

[Erik Lindahl] " Given the "all native" approach this potentially is a problem when dealing with less than optimal H264-files from unknown sources. Some kind of bullet proof validation-process would be appreciated here."

What kind of "corrupted media" do you mean? H.264 files with pixelated frames and whatnot? Because if the file is corrupt to where it won't play at all, Premiere doesn't accept that. If it has "pixelated" frames, I don't know of any other NLE that will reject it either, nor do I know how you would program it to make that determination without also introducing instances where it refuses media that's actually fine.


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:14:35 pm

I did one bigger project in CS6 that ended up with either a corrupt project file or a project file pointing at bad media or simply PrPro CS6 being FUBAR. Either or I never got that project to work after about a week of editing. I had to rebuild everything in FCP7 to meet the deadline and I had a very embarrassing afternoon with the client when Premier got the above idéa to "die" on me.

All the media works in FCP7 - given I transcoded everything "properly" and converted all the image-files "properly" hence "bad media" was removed from the equation. I haven't dared do any bigger projects in PrPro CS6 since.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:44:05 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "All the media works in FCP7 - given I transcoded everything "properly" and converted all the image-files "properly" hence "bad media" was removed from the equation. I haven't dared do any bigger projects in PrPro CS6 since.
"


You still haven't defined what you mean by "works"...if you have H.264 with bad, pixelated frames in it, then transcode to ProRes, then you subsequently have a ProRes file with bad, pixelated frames.

What do you mean by "bad media"?


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:52:11 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "I did one bigger project in CS6 that ended up with either a corrupt project file or a project file pointing at bad media or simply PrPro CS6 being FUBAR. Either or I never got that project to work after about a week of editing. I had to rebuild everything in FCP7 to meet the deadline and I had a very embarrassing afternoon with the client when Premier got the above idéa to "die" on me.

All the media works in FCP7 - given I transcoded everything "properly" and converted all the image-files "properly" hence "bad media" was removed from the equation. I haven't dared do any bigger projects in PrPro CS6 since.
"


Erik, I'd be very reluctant, as well. I totally get it. My last encounter with a major out-of-nowhere corrupt project was in FCP 6. It would begin to load and then just die. I hadn't had autosave on for some time and was truly messed up by it. Over the years, I've learned to save external versions early and often. When I'm in FCP, I try to make Media Managed versions of key timelines in large projects at pivotal moments on different drives because of the number of times I've been burned. The problem is I often get so wrapped up in what I'm doing that I sometimes don't follow my own advice.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55:05 pm

[Chris Harlan] "When I'm in FCP, I try to make Media Managed versions of key timelines in large projects at pivotal moments on different drives because of the number of times I've been burned. "

Yeah, if you have a drive go out that you're currently working off of, doesn't matter how "robust" the project files are.

Been there, would like to avoid repeating that experience!


Return to posts index

Lance Bachelder
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 10:40:44 am

Hilarious - you just proved my point - the idiotic way you have to noodle around to find sync. I stand by my statement - it's garbage and has no business being in the same suite as Photoshop and After effects.

Why should anyone have to "dig deep" to find things that are plane as day in Vegas, FCP7 or Avid.? And yes I do miss sync indicators in FCPX and hope they're added soon. I also assume Premiere will have them soon as it's hard to call a NLE "pro" without pro features. Sync indicators aside, the list of missing and poorly thought features in Premiere is endless and not worth any more of my time - years of being a beta tester proved to me how inept the Premiere team is - I had hoped 6 would be better but it's not even close...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 11:12:35 am

[Lance Bachelder] " the list of missing and poorly thought features in Premiere is endless and not worth any more of my time "

right yes I see.

this is getting ridiculous.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 2:26:06 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Hilarious - you just proved my point - the idiotic way you have to noodle around to find sync. I stand by my statement - it's garbage and has no business being in the same suite as Photoshop and After effects."

See, Lance, this is why your statements betray an ironic bent in your need to validate your chosen NLE software from a mega corporation.

Because you follow it up with this:

[Lance Bachelder] "Why should anyone have to "dig deep" to find things that are plane as day in Vegas, FCP7 or Avid.? And yes I do miss sync indicators in FCPX and hope they're added soon."

The cognitive dissonance is staggering! (edit: and it's "plain as day").

[Lance Bachelder] "the list of missing and poorly thought features in Premiere is endless and not worth any more of my time"

Still no specifics, tisk tisk. Perhaps you have a point, perhaps not. But so far, your biggest argument has been "Premier's sync indicators aren't easy to find." Hey, fair enough. But then FCPX doesn't have any...at all.

At least Erink Lindahl gave a specific, one that I agree needs to be addressed:

[Erik Lindahl] "Exporting of timelines in PrPro is quite bad compared to FCP (even FCPX from the little experience I have of it). The human interaction before you can actually achieve a batch-export is far from optimal. This could be part of the "more clicks than I'm used to" phenomenon. Why on earth Adobe hasn't just implemented an AE-like export in PrPro is beyond me."

But, then again, neither does FCPX without having to go through the "clunky" interface of Compressor, one whose output leaves a lot to be desired (I'm often tasked with churning out the occasional DVD via Encore/Media Encoder for associates who are unhappy with the MPEG2 output of Compressor), and an interface that hasn't changed since the early '00s.


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 2:34:55 pm

I haven't done any extensive tests on the area of export from PrPro vs FCPX vs FCP7 but I believe FCPX is far simpler / faster in terms of human interaction than PrPro especially now since you can set up custom outputs in the program quite neatly. It's not optimal for batch-export but very "nice" for day to day use the times I've used it (and since the background process is automatic it's much nicer than the somewhat daunting GUI PrPro shows us).

That said Compressor is more or less garbage. Lack of features, poor H264 encoder, limited MPEG2 encoder, no WMV-encoder (well AME is just as bad on the last point). AME is getting better and better but again this is an area where Adobe really should improve if their goal is to be a really serious player in the video-market. It's actually here again a lot of silly human interaction "issues" they could fix quite easily. Batch-chainging how a series of files are interpreted is a lot of point > click > point > click. Here Adobe should look at how for example things are sorted in Episode Pro (give, EP is a buggy nightmare, they have gotten a few things right).


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 2:42:25 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "no WMV-encoder (well AME is just as bad on the last point)"

Only on a Mac, where licensing issues prohibit it (you can easily export WMV under AME in Windows) just like you can't export a ProRes Quicktime under Windows.

[Erik Lindahl] " Batch-chainging how a series of files are interpreted is a lot of point > click > point > click."

The easiest fix will allow a right click menu option to export sequences from the Bin, and to select multiple sequences in AME when you open a Premiere project. I would also add that setting default encode and output location settings would alleviate this issue as well.

But I guess Premiere and Adobe don't get a pass for things they can add "in the future" like Apple and FCPX can?


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 2:51:49 pm

Nah, PrPro certainly can improve but I do see FCPX as version 1.0 and Premier as version 6.0 so I get when people complain about CS6 lacking stuff. I also get when people feel FCPX lacks stuff from it's legacy (version 1-7). I also read "amazing" things about PrPro from I guess CS5 with it's Mercury Engine and well it's taken quite a few years for the magic to mature for mass-market. Prior to CS6 video output in conjunction with ME and / or ProRes was, frankly, useless in the program.

In terms of WMV licensing both Episode and Squeeze have sorted this out so I don't think it would be that hard to fix if Adobe really wanted. I also gather, possibly, they'd loose X $ per OSX license then compared to Windows.

In that regard they should add ProRes support in Windows much like Episode has ProRes support here.

My primary system is still FCP7 but we are going to have to move somewhere soonish. Where, time will tell.


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 3:21:47 pm

[Gary Huff] "[Lance Bachelder] "Why should anyone have to "dig deep" to find things that are plane as day in Vegas, FCP7 or Avid.? And yes I do miss sync indicators in FCPX and hope they're added soon."

The cognitive dissonance is staggering! (edit: and it's "plain as day")."


Yeah. I have to ask, Lance, because it isn't clear to me--is this epic parody on your part? Or are you just THAT out of touch with the things you are saying?


Return to posts index

Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 3:11:43 pm

"As far as your jazz analogy - I've played guitar since I was 10 and love all forms of music - not just jazz - so shut your Phrygian pie hole you elitist prick." - Lance Batchelder

Thanks Lance - you just proved my point - looks as if the Merlot is the only thing you're really good at. How many years did you earn a living playing music? None, would be my guess...no offense.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 28, 2013 at 3:34:59 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "the idiotic way you have to noodle around to find sync"

How is opening a panel that shows TC idiotic? How is it noodling around? How can you do that in FCP X?

[Lance Bachelder] "Why should anyone have to "dig deep" to find things that are plane as day in Vegas, FCP7 or Avid.? "

It ain't digging deep to find out if your TC (and Sync) are listed in this panel as opposed to that panel. I'd say it is equally plain as day; its just another part of the Afternoon.

[Lance Bachelder] "Sync indicators aside, the list of missing and poorly thought features in Premiere is endless and not worth any more of my time - years of being a beta tester proved to me how inept the Premiere team is - I had hoped 6 would be better but it's not even close..."

I could care less what you think, unless you can be a useful part of the conversation. Which you are currently not being. The hypocrisy of your one example is stunning.


Return to posts index

Richard Cardonna
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 29, 2013 at 4:35:01 pm

I guess that to much merlot affects people in different ways.

Richard


Return to posts index

Lance Bachelder
Re: Trying new stuff
on Jan 30, 2013 at 8:19:26 pm

I didn't even bring up the sync thing - someone else did. Premiere blows chucks - always has, whether it always will doesn't matter to me - I'll never know.

How you guys can deduce that I think FCPX is perfect and has all the answers is just insane - apparently there's a lot stronger stuff than good 'ole Merlot going 'round.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



Return to posts index

ted irving
Re: Trying new stuff
on Feb 12, 2013 at 4:09:28 pm

Hahaha! Great points. I didn't get to read all of them so forgive me if I repeat something already stated. I love FCPX, teach Premiere CS5.5, and not 6, worked on Avid Media Composer, Newscutter, Lightworks, Vegas, FCP7...all are just tools. I don't, "hate," on NLE software because it is all about the user. I remember selling tv shows at NATPE in 2008 and a young lawyer with no TV or film experience shows up with a 3 minute sizzle reel edited on iMovie and gets a nice $35,000.00 deal after the first day of the convention. The posts on Creative Cow are excellent because so many people can provide help and tips to many of us who may get lost or frustrated with a particular application. However, a good spirited debate is ok as long as, in my opinion, we remember that these are just tools and it is about the persons skill set and not the software. I love FCPX for my ENG and sports work and love Avid for long form documentary work. I like teaching Premiere and see the good in it. And I love Photoshop. Must have. After Effects not so much, but Motion, Yes! Man just have fun!!

Ted Irving
Freelance Content Creation
CBS MaxPreps/BBN3
http://www.tedtv.tv
tedirving@yahoo.com


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]