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how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light

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Michael Cox
how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 19, 2012 at 10:07:31 pm

For the past year I have been switching back and forth between FCPX and Adobe Premiere CS 5.5 and CS 6.x, different projects being done on one or the other. Mainly to compare, but also because there were, to be honest, things I liked about FCPX (magnetic timeline--some of the time, for instance) and things I liked about Premiere (interface, dynamic link). I run a small editing station using a 2.8 GHz Quad Core Mac Pro with 16GB Ram and blah blah its good but not top of the line and I know I'd do better with a faster GPU but until I can afford one the stock ATI Radeon 5770 will have to do.

I have been suffering far too many stalls and app quits in FCPX, and today after several of those in a row I've had it, I'm not going to waste my time anymore with it, it's Total Divorce, FCPX is getting the boot from my computer as soon as I've exported each project as a QT 422 file and XML. So long FCPX, you were a cute thing, but I prefer the more mature type...and no, I don't want anyone's advice on this, don't interfere in my techno-marriage and I won't in yours.


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Paul Jay
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 19, 2012 at 11:18:56 pm

Get an iMac and Premiere and fcpx will be more than happy.


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Craig Seeman
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 19, 2012 at 11:31:22 pm

Your MacPro is not all that great for FCPX.

You can see the Barefeats tests I posted in the other thread comparing late 2012 iMac vs 2010 6 Core MacPro for example.

FCPX relies on the GPU for many things and the newer GPUs outperform the 5870 and 5770. FCPX also uses AVX technology in Sandy and Ivy Bridge chips and not found in any MacPro. In some cases I believe it takes advantage of the "virtual cores" which I don't think are in MacPros from 2008 and earlier. This would be even more of an issue if you're on a Quad Core MacPro from that period as a Quad i7 may outperform.

Personally I have both a 2008 8 Core MacPro with 5770 and a base model 2011 15" MBP and the latter feels faster with FCPX than the former.



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Bill Davis
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 19, 2012 at 11:42:09 pm

Look, let him go.

He's pretty clear that he's emotionally bruised by this and he's not interested in making new space in his thinking.

I actually don't blame him. ONE of my machines is pretty much like his - and as the code in FCP-X has developed and gotten more complex, that older machine of mine has had progressively more difficulty running X well.

My other machine, my (last model pre-thunderbolt) laptop just LOVES X and has none of the issues my MacPro has. So I've had to simply acknowledge that for anyone unable or unwilling to upgrade to modern level hardware (read stuff manufactured in the last 2 years) running X will be an increasingly difficult issue.

So the OP is correct in that X is NOT a good option for him as long as he has to rely on running older hardware.

Someday he'll HAVE to upgrade his machine (we all do) then if he feels the weight of public opinion gives him a reason to look again, he might - OR he might be happily loyal to his new NLE beau and never look back.

That's just how it is.

Move along.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Neil Patience
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 20, 2012 at 12:11:45 am

Well said Bill, Premiere and Avid are going to work much better on that machine so Michael has choices, but if happy with CS.X why change/struggle ?
I have an old 8 core MacPro with a 5770 and X runs OK but is sluggish and I am sure would get bogged down on anything substantial. I also have a MBP i7 2.7 gig and X runs super quickly on that - It certainly seems you really do need pretty much up to date hardware to get the best out of X.
I was surprised how well the MBP did in Craigs shoot out post.

As Bill says Michael "move along" - happy editing.

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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Craig Seeman
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 20, 2012 at 1:02:12 am

[Neil Patience] "Well said Bill, Premiere and Avid are going to work much better on that machine so Michael has choices, but if happy with CS.X why change/struggle ?"
[Neil Patience] "I was surprised how well the MBP did in Craigs shoot out post."

Do note in the Part 2 of the shootout how well the Adobe apps and even Resolve performed on the 2012 27" iMac. Apple moving to nVidia really does give very good performance with Adobe CS, FCPX, DaVinci Resolve. Until Apple replaces the MacPro, the new iMac is good for someone who needs to work with a variety of ProApps Hopefully Apple continues to keep nVidia in the game with good GPU options in the MacPro replacement. In the meantime the 2012 iMac seems a reasonable lower cost replacement for an older MacPro unless you're already using 12 cores with "not officially supported" nVidia GPU.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 20, 2012 at 1:14:54 am

man emerges from the brush, angry - gives out to some guy he just read about, argues hardware penny pinching in his eyes, employes caps, goes back to using an editing system that is an eighteen month old dead carp that he continues to cradle and scream about.

lets do it:

He's pretty clear that he's emotionally bruised by this and he's not interested in making new space in his thinking.

almost terrifyingly clawing at the other person. - you would really wonder at Bill's motivation, I don't recall the poster being here that much, but bill is desperate to bruise him.

[Bill Davis] "and as the code in FCP-X has developed and gotten more complex, that older machine of mine has had progressively more difficulty running X well. "

this bit here is kind of funny - bill appears to have internalised that FCPX is about to become self aware, that it is on a hockey stick curve where playing back pro res is going to require incredible resources. - anyway - i thought that was funny.

then bill goes just full versailles mad and starts declaring the world from his - Louis the 15th - vantage.

"Someday he'll HAVE to upgrade his machine (we all do) then if he feels the weight of public opinion gives him a reason to look again, he might - OR he might be happily loyal to his new NLE beau and never look back."

honest to god, I could have included more - in part, i personally think this forum should maybe go into the good night - its mostly redundant, we are largely repeating, but primarily, I think it should be shut off if only to see, in your mind's eye, the reaction on bill's face when he realises he can't go utterly full bore lost sandwich to any individual who wanders in here. - yes, I might barrel on too, but I never carry on like Bill does in this fashion - he appears to have a taste for hammering unsuspecting people. We're in a circle jerk here - Bill has a taste for punching people wandering in the door.

It serves to completely close off this forum. there's very little air getting in these days in broader conversational terms.

for someone like Bill, a twenty five year nationally syndicated columnist, it shouldn't end up like this.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Cherniack
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 20, 2012 at 2:33:22 pm

Well, "Let him go." probably says it all, doesn't it.

You're right, Aindreas. Nothing much left here beyond entrenched ideological bleatings, mostly from those who have committed to the Cause. Hey, it may be entertaining for a while but it does get tiring. I too think this forum has pretty much served it's purpose. The world has moved on. Those using FCPX are happy with it. It does what they need it to do. Good. But this place is now just serving as a platform for persuasion with precious little new being added. It's becoming one of those dreary rainy day places which purport to offer shelter but after a brief time, being out in the rain seems much more preferable.

The discussion is over. It's now argument.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Rafael Amador
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 20, 2012 at 3:30:20 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Someday he'll HAVE to upgrade his machine (we all do"
In fact, from now on, be ready to do it every two years.
That if you want to fallow the Apple's pace.
Hopefully you will be able to keep using third part hardware for a bit longer.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Bill Davis
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 20, 2012 at 6:48:22 pm

[Rafael Amador] "In fact, from now on, be ready to do it every two years.
That if you want to fallow the Apple's pace."


I think Rafael is exactly correct in this.

The pace of hardware evolution is such that if your core tech is more than a couple of years old, it just can't run the most modern software efficiently enough to get the performance gains that make a difference.

The coders creating our NLEs have to keep an eye on being backwards compatible, but at some point, that just hobbles them.

Probably another reason Apple did the BIG FCP switch.

Wrapping a new body around an old engine is all well and good. But sooner or later, engine technology evolves.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Robert d'Alexis
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 20, 2012 at 8:43:14 pm

Hi Bill

The website you linked to got my attention.
Do you ship outside the US?
Thanks,

Robert


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Bill Davis
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 20, 2012 at 8:50:08 pm

Thanks for asking.
Yes.
We've sold SEN in to customers in more than 10 countries.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Robert d'Alexis
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 20, 2012 at 10:02:54 pm

Thank you very much indeed for your speedy response.
A brilliant concept, by the way.
Needless to say, I am sold.:-)


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Michael Gissing
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 20, 2012 at 10:55:29 pm

[Bill Davis]"The coders creating our NLEs have to keep an eye on being backwards compatible, but at some point, that just hobbles them."

Too kind to the mentality behind Apple's NLE software. Backwards compatibility is not what they want at all. Breaking backwards compatibility has been the hallmark of each version of FCP. New project version can't be opened by older versions. Messy XML translations were required.

Breaking backwards compatibility is the key to selling hardware on an increasing cycle. The plan to release new OS on a yearly cycle is designed to accelerate the hardware cycle. Another reason why I am moving back to Win hardware & OS. Much easier to pop the hood and upgrade peripherals like GPU and RAM without needing a soldering iron.

True backwards compatibility means I can install a four year old version of my Fairlight software and open a project created with todays beta software. That's true backwards compatibility written by coders who actually consider backwards compatibility important. And no it hasn't hobbled them at all.


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Rafael Amador
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 21, 2012 at 3:01:04 am

[Bill Davis] "The pace of hardware evolution is such that if your core tech is more than a couple of years old, it just can't run the most modern software efficiently enough to get the performance gains that make a difference."
This can work in the USA where credit, energy and hardware are cheap, where you have industrial and educational discounts., but this pace won't be fallowed by the industry in the rest of the world, believe me.
Apple will be able to make people change the phone every year, but won't be able to make the industry to trash all the hardware every two or three years. Is all about money. In a world where the man power price is going down, investing lot of money on cutting wages makes no sense. People will invest in "faster", only if "faster" pay back. There is a worth floating around: sustainability.
Rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 21, 2012 at 2:53:20 pm

[Rafael Amador] "[Bill Davis] "The pace of hardware evolution is such that if your core tech is more than a couple of years old, it just can't run the most modern software efficiently enough to get the performance gains that make a difference."
This can work in the USA where credit, energy and hardware are cheap, where you have industrial and educational discounts., but this pace won't be fallowed by the industry in the rest of the world, believe me."


This statement - that you constantly need to upgrade hardware - simply isn't true. It's merely a design decision Apple chooses to follow. Planned obsolescence. Other software is no less "modern" than FCP X and it runs perfectly fine on older MPs for example.

The nature of a tower - which Apple (apparently) chooses to walk away from - is expandability and the ability to upgrade internal components. Things like extra or different GPUs or replacing CPUs with newer processor models. All of these things that PC users enjoy, simply aren't in Apple's DNA. Their reasoning is simply to control the user experience in ways that lets users avoid the geekiness that the other approach necessitates (Sonnet G3 cards in an 840 a/v anyone?).

Rather than generalize that hardware is obsolete in 2 years, it's more accurate to say that Apple has decided to engineer hardware and software to a narrow set of criteria based on its own decisions of which newer, optimized hardware to embrace.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: how many times must I see the spinning ball before I see the light
on Dec 23, 2012 at 5:50:03 am

[Oliver Peters] "This statement - that you constantly need to upgrade hardware - simply isn't true. It's merely a design decision Apple chooses to follow. Planned obsolescence. Other software is no less "modern" than FCP X and it runs perfectly fine on older MPs for example.
"


Oliver, I think we disagree here.

A case in point is that X requires an Open CL compatible (and therefore pretty modern) graphics card to launch the FCP-X installer

That's a clear sign that they've designed the hardware with specific processing requirements in mind and only certify their software to properly run in the presence of same.

Having both a MacPro of an older generation and a laptop of a more modern era, I can attest to the major difference modern hardware makes in X's operation.

I honestly don't think it's about "designed obsolescence to sell hardware." That's only effective if you have something that's actually BETTER to replace what's currently being used, and to imagine that a company isn't using what they honestly think is the best tech available is to believe they'll willingly make themselves vulnerable to any competitor who would.

I think it's much more about giving their engineers the freedom to design for not just where hardware is today - or will be just next year, but also for where the insiders at Apple know it will be in the years to come given their position at the core of one of the most successful technology manufacturing operations on the planet.

My view, anyway.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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