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Fcp x no sub edits?

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dan crouch
Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 12:33:17 pm

As an editor I am always paranoid about losing great cuts, moods. Sometimes I need to refer to a cut that was recorded to DVD weeks earlier. I therefore keep loads of sub edits in a bin for safety.

I am halfway through a training DVD for X and I still can't see how this can be done.

One sequence?! Am I missing something?

Any help will be gratefully received.

Cheers,
Dan.


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Mark Dobson
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 12:44:48 pm

[dan crouch] "As an editor I am always paranoid about losing great cuts, moods. Sometimes I need to refer to a cut that was recorded to DVD weeks earlier. I therefore keep loads of sub edits in a bin for safety."

Hi Dan,

Could I suggest that you duplicate your projects on a regular basis. To save space don't duplicate the renders. You can place these projects in a folder in your project library.

Another method would be to create compound clips of bits you want to save, maybe creating and saving them to their own event.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 1:02:53 pm

I think it's good the question is raised.

It highlights the difficulty people have in wrapping their heads around FCPX function and workflow. As Mark says, you duplicate your project just as you duplicate a sequence to "version" it. Of course depending on your approach, you could have lots of Auditions attached if you're primarily looking to have alternate takes to a single project.

Another thing this highlights is that so much of training focuses on "how to" with various functions and very little of it focuses on workflow development.

Organizing a workflow for a documentary with nearly everything shot (think historical maybe) vs a documentary that will be getting material ongoing over two years, may be different. Certainly it may be different than an episodic series and even that may be different depending on how self contained vs related the episodes are. That would be different than a corporate video in which new versions may happen every few months from the same source video but with newly shot material added with each update.

Even the saving of "sub edits" gives you various choices. Mentioned already is duplicating the project. Another could be saving the project as a Compound Clip which would then keep the copy in the Event Library. You could then create a new project and make that independent (this is all new in 10.0.6 forward).



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Steve Connor
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 12:46:32 pm

Projects are exactly the same as sequences in FCP7, think of the project library as a 'bin" for your sequences.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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dan crouch
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 1:01:02 pm

Thanks v much for the post's.
I can't help thinking that Apple have completely overlooked the fact that editors need loads of alt cuts.
To create a compound clip to save off edits seems like a very long winded process.

To keep sequences as different projects may work I guess, but is it not possible to open the window up so you can see them all together? I use loads of sub edits and need to access them all the time quickly.

I'm sure I'm not the first to say this BUT... it is looking more and more like a complicated non pro application to me.
Clever ways of keeping a tidy timeline, but with no thought of the intuitive nature of editing, if you know what I mean.

Cheers
Dan.


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Steve Connor
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 1:05:51 pm

[dan crouch] "I'm sure I'm not the first to say this BUT... it is looking more and more like a complicated non pro application to me."

Once you are used to how compounds work, especially since the 10.06 update they will do everything you need. It's one menu command after you have duplicated the sequence, it's not exactly complicated.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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dan crouch
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 1:10:24 pm

Thanks v much for the help.
I shall dedicate a few hours to creating compound clips and see how it goes.


Cheers,
Dan.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 1:13:59 pm

[dan crouch] "To create a compound clip to save off edits seems like a very long winded process."

Just duplicate the project. Compound clips is just another alternative. Choice is good. Not overlooking but giving us more options.

[dan crouch] "To keep sequences as different projects may work I guess,"

I think you're stuck in the terminology. Project more or less equal sequence. That's all a Project is. It's Primary, Secondary story line and connected clips.

[dan crouch] "is it not possible to open the window up so you can see them all together?"

Sure. In the Project Library. And you can skim each as well. All without having to "load them." Way easier than FCP7 for example (IMHO). In my Project Library I have Client folders (doing mostly corporate stuff) and then within the Client folder I have folders which contain the Projects for each "job"

You need to understand the relationship between Events (where clips exist) and Projects (which is the Storyline) and the Event Library and the Project Library.

[dan crouch] " is looking more and more like a complicated non pro application to me."

Actually it looks like a professional database in which Events and Projects are relationships and Event Library and Project Library organize their respective data. Then there's the third party tool Event Manager which can help you further by bringing stuff online or taking it offline as needed. Granted I think FCPX needs a really powerful management app/function that can function facility wide on a SAN for example.



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Bret Williams
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 1:26:16 pm

I definitely do not keep loads of alternate edits. Perhaps occasionally, but definitely not on a regular basis. I create a version 1, submit it. Changes are given, and I duplicate the sequence and call the new one version 2 and move on. I work exactly the same way in X except now we have auditions, which is a very clever way of doing versions of individual shots or portions.

Create folders in the project library. Organize your sequences as you always have in legacy. What's the difference except how sequences or events are more easily accessible to other projects.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 2:41:02 pm

[Bret Williams] "Create folders in the project library. Organize your sequences as you always have in legacy. What's the difference except how sequences or events are more easily accessible to other projects."

The downside of the Project Library is that there is no true "list view". When you open the library or a folder within the library, it has to generate the filmstrip view for each project/timeline, which can be quite time consuming. That filmstrip view is also not very useful if you have an "adjustment layer" clip at the top level. In the project window you only see the generic thumbnail unless you skim over it.

I also generate lots of "in progress" sequences as I edit. I just finished a commercial edit where the objective was a single :30 spot. We probably had 15+ variations and 3 finished options were submitted to the client for review.

Furthermore, loading projects from the Project Library into the active timeline is poorly handled at best. You have to open them one at a time. You cannot highlight several and have them open at once. The timeline window won't hold a lot of open projects at once and frequently loses ones that had been opened as you move forward and backward through them. Then you end up having to reload ones you had loaded just a few minutes ago.

I realize "duplicate" is the way the software works, but the overall design of X does not seem to be convenient, when a "project" is anything other than a final, all-inclusive version.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 2:44:46 pm

As I said make a duplicate of your project then make a compound of it, then you get access to it in the Project viewer AND the event, remember since 10.06 compounds are actually usable without bloating the event.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Oliver Peters
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 2:50:33 pm

[Steve Connor] "As I said make a duplicate of your project then make a compound of it, then you get access to it in the Project viewer AND the event"

True. But Apple could actually fix the problem by:
a) adding a list view option to the Project Library window, or
b) Moving the Project Library window into the Event Browser space.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 2:52:29 pm

I've sent a feedback request for b) including being able to set io points. It would be a neater solution

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Oliver Peters
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 2:59:56 pm

[Steve Connor] "I've sent a feedback request for b) including being able to set io points"

It would be nice to have the insert/overwrite "with sequence contents" function back to eliminate the need to copy & paste clips or to break apart compounds.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Michael Hadley
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 3:17:10 pm

It took me a while to figure out how to make versions or strings to refer back to etc. Working with X, I have found that it just super easy to duplicate and rename the project and then continue cutting on the new version.

Once you get the hang of it, it couldn't be simpler. Also, it took me a while to figure out that you can PLAY projects from the library. So you can in fact hope back and forth and look for that sweet ending soundbite in Cut 3 that you know want to bring back to Cut 7.

The compound clip route is also completely valid approach if you like that. And also super easy (a couple of keystrokes). I just prefer the other route.

My larger point would be this: when you find yourself unable to do something in X, it's most often because there's just a different way of doing it. And that new way is 90% of the time better and faster. But there will be that initial period of "WTF?!?!?!?!". But over time, as you work with it, you will come to understand the intelligence behind the software. And if you are like me, you will never look back to FCP7 (which I used for 10 years).

It's not perfect but it's pretty darn tasty.


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dan crouch
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 7:10:15 pm

Yes, I can see now how using folders in the project library will help loads. I have just made a load of them and it skips through quite easily. It's a shame you can't pull it out into it's own window tho isn't it.

Thanks for the post's! v helpful,
Cheers,
Dan.


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Tony Corapi
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 3:14:27 pm

I feel it would be helpful if you could put the project library in list view like in the event library. Many times I cannot even read the names of projects if longer titles are necessary and go to filmstrip view when you want to playback or skim through. As Oliver said, waiting for things to load can get problematic. Oh and batch export would be great too.


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Bret Williams
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 4:51:48 pm

I agree on all points. It's just different. FCP 7 really sucked when you needed to grab something from another project and you had to first, find the project, then open it.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 5:12:14 pm

[Bret Williams] "FCP 7 really sucked when you needed to grab something from another project and you had to first, find the project, then open it"

You're confusing FCP 7 Projects (complete files for an entire production) with FCP X Projects (just sequences). If you had to do the equivalent in X, it would require closing and manually moving "disabled" projects back into the Folder at the Finder level, or using Event Manger X. Both of which require more work than opening an existing project in FCP 7 or using Media Composer's "open bin" function.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 10:19:39 pm

The downside of the Project Library is that there is no true "list view".

But a quasi one. Click and hold the 'back' arrow top left in your project window and you see a list of the projects that were loaded before.

Also to quickly access projects without going back to the project library, load them once and than switch between them by using command [ and ]. this command goes through them in the order they are listed by the back or forward arrow I mentioned before.

And of course as mentioned before you can play projects in the project listing without loading them.

Happy editing


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Oliver Peters
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 10:25:02 pm

[Carsten Orlt] "Click and hold the 'back' arrow top left in your project window and you see a list of the projects that were loaded before.
Also to quickly access projects without going back to the project library, load them once and than switch between them by using command [ and ]."


I do all this and X generally "forgets" some of the ones loaded. For instance, I have found no way to get it to consistently retain a larger number of project timelines, for example 10 projects. I could easily do that with tabbed sequences in FCP "legacy". Thoughts?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 15, 2012 at 2:46:53 am

I only work 2-4 at a time so I never noticed them disappearing again.

Wouldn't know how to maintain a larger number. I guess X kicks out the oldest to free up memory?

Sorry not solution here Oliver.

Happy editing.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 15, 2012 at 3:33:50 am

[Carsten Orlt] " I guess X kicks out the oldest to free up memory?"

Yes, it does feel like a RAM issue.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Michael Sanders
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 4:18:43 pm

Check out Pro versioner from Digital Rebellion - it can help with saving alternative cuts.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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Jari Innanen
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 6:18:37 pm

"it is looking more and more like a complicated non pro application to me.
Clever ways of keeping a tidy timeline, but with no thought of the intuitive nature of editing, if you know what I mean"

Have you used the Audition feature in FCPX? No other NLE that I know of has that. I'm doing my second feature film on FCPX and very much disagree what you're saying about the "intuitive nature of editing". I came from film editing, went to Avid 1991 and to FCP 2001. In between and after have used Media 100, Lightworks, Heavyworks and Premiere Pro. The FCP X is as close to "intuitive nature of editing" as I know. And much more.


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dan crouch
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 6:47:39 pm

Thanks for the post Jari, that is very encouraging to hear.
I have a job pencilled on Fcp x so am very keen for it to work for me.

Can I then ask how you go about selecting the best takes for a scene?
would you line them up in a new project, and add a marker for comments etc, or would you use the audition feature you have described.

When I select best takes in Avid I simply put a marker on my favourite take, cut it into my scene always knowing I have a sequence with all the takes should the director want to review.

Cheers,
Dan.


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Jari Innanen
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 7:20:31 pm

Dan, I'm more than happy to tell you about the workflow. You can contact me privately if you want. This forum is not necessary the place to give advice about FCP X. It bloats pretty quickly with advice how other NLEs do it better.
Plus it is late here.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 8:35:10 pm

[Jari Innanen] "This forum is not necessary the place to give advice about FCP X"

Actually you should post it, because I think there would be a lot of interest. It's just better to post it in the FCP X Techniques forum. Less "combative" there ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 10:11:47 pm

Hi Dan,

Been following all the above and when I read this last post I started to think to understand why you get stuck with projects..

Are you making (and I'm using the FCPx naming) projects to create selects of clips?

If you do I think you are missing one of the most powerful feature of X: organizing in the event.
e.g. to have all your best takes quickly can be done by just giving them (or sections of longer clips) a keyword called 'best' to get all best takes from day 3 is than done by combining searches. Actually any kind of organizational task that you would use sequences for in legacy or any other NLE can be done in X by using keywords, favorites and markers.
I edit long form docus and for years was using select sequences to store best stuff. Since X this is completely obsolete because I now organize everything in the event. And of course if I want to save different versions of an actual cut I create separate projects for that.

Spent some time to see what can be done in the event before you even go to the project stage.
I straight away can think of a keyword for 'Directors choice' and 'My choice' and with a click you could switch looking at different sets. And this way. you'll find the take that the director wants from actor Sally, shot at night, in the graveyard, in a flash because all these can be keywords.

If I got that wrong as to why projects are not working, never mind :-)

Happy editing.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 10:46:59 pm

[Carsten Orlt] "I think you are missing one of the most powerful feature of X: organizing in the event.
e.g. to have all your best takes quickly can be done by just giving them (or sections of longer clips) a keyword called 'best' to get all best takes from day 3 is than done by combining searches. Actually any kind of organizational task that you would use sequences for in legacy or any other NLE can be done in X by using keywords, favorites and markers."


Agreed. I'm working on a project now... promo reel for a studio. I have 30 features as sources, all of which I need to go through and pull selects from. Using the skimmer, Smart Collections and 9 keywords I'm flying through this stuff. Need an "action" shot? click the collection with that name and all the shots I've tagged as such, from all the films, show up in a "bin" ready to go. In FCP7 I'd be in hell right about now. It's great.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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dan crouch
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 10:53:07 pm

I'm not at my mac now, but by marking rushes with keywords etc. you are adding info to the clips
but you aren't cutting them down or making sequences of elects or favourite bits. Are you saying that you no longer need to do this, not to do a 'pull' but instead use info tabs etc?

Cheers,
Dan.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 10:58:58 pm

[dan crouch] "I'm not at my mac now, but by marking rushes with keywords etc. you are adding info to the clips
but you aren't cutting them down or making sequences of elects or favourite bits. Are you saying that you no longer need to do this, not to do a 'pull' but instead use info tabs etc?"


Correct. Mark an in and out, assign a keyword (or multiple keywords) you've created and smart collections of the same name will appear containing just the "clips" tagged with that keyword. Essentially "bins" of selects. The same "clip" can appear in multiple collections. Anytime you add a keyword it will automatically put the "clip" (really just the tagged region) into the collection. Super easy. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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dan crouch
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 11:03:53 pm

That sounds like it could work. I imagine it'll take a while to get use to tho.
Thanks v much for all the help.

Cheers,
Dan.


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Steve Connor
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 11:06:19 pm

[dan crouch] "That sounds like it could work. I imagine it'll take a while to get use to tho."

I does, but when you do.......:)

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Charlie Austin
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 11:08:42 pm

[dan crouch] "That sounds like it could work. I imagine it'll take a while to get use to tho.
Thanks v much for all the help.
"


Cool. It's way easier than making selects the old way. It'll take you about 2 seconds to get used to. :-) The part that takes the most time is filling in the keywords you'd like to use. Then it's just I/O and a keystroke or 2 depending on how many tags you want to associate with the clip. Combine keywords with favoriting and markers and you'll be in "find anything you need with a keystroke" heaven.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 11:39:04 pm

The getting used to part is that you will constantly adjust what keywords to use how to use them and how to combine that with fav and markers.

There is no one way to approach this so you have to find the system that works for.

And do not be afraid to try. The beauty is that you can at any stage change keywords selections, rename the keyword etc. So if in the beginning you make some changes because you adjust your system it is done very easily.

The biggest change in approach is really that you spent more time organizing and tagging your footage before you start putting it together in projects. I for instance have one empty 'test project' which I use to cut a few things in while organizing to see if a certain combination might work, or I need to see if I can CC the clip to make it usable, like a scratch pad, constantly deleting after the test and than adjusting my organization in the event depending on the outcome.

There is not one way to skin this cat, but you definitely using a different knife and technique :-)

Happy editing


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Michael Hadley
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 14, 2012 at 11:56:23 pm

Don't forget the easiest key--F. Mark in and outs and just hit F. That marks the selection as a favorite. Then just do a seach on all your favorites and voila, instant selects bin. And if you are also adding keywords, you can refine your search to Favorites/Close Up or whatever.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 15, 2012 at 5:46:52 pm

The handling of projects and sequences clearly is one of FCPX's "Achilles Heels". It clearly wasn't design with TVC versioning in mind. Just the simple fact at how hard it is to visualize say 30 edits is hard, if not impossible.

This is really something they need to look into on top of the fact being able to have multiple sequences open at once. Very limited now. But that's, I guess, part of 10.0 being 1.0 (or well 1.7 now I guess).

It almost seems more efficient using one single timeline and FCPX index-feature for some work. Much like its done in Protools. Very confusing way of working IMO but it might get the jobb done.


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Bill Davis
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 15, 2012 at 7:27:47 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "The handling of projects and sequences clearly is one of FCPX's "Achilles Heels"."

Not quite sure how you can say this.

After all, they built in a nice relational database that manages all your raw assets making agile assembly of multiple projects fast and easy. They built in the Project Library - where you can have a visual display of all your "edits." They gave you namable folders within that Project Library so that you can do all the sub-organization you like.

AND they transformed the original one dimensional Timeline into a storyline with the ability to not only create groupings of visual elements that you can drop in and move out at will - they even built direct clip auditioning directly into the Storyline as another option.

How you can argue that the "handling of projects and sequences" is potentially fata in itl? (Kinda what the whole Achillies thing was, no? I honestly think that's totally out of proportion as an opinion.

Some will find the tools amazingly flexible. Others won't have specific solution in X for specific workflows that they've come to prefer. And others will simply not understand how the software works well enough to solve specific problems according to how the software is designed until they understand it better.

I think the way they designed it's Project and Versioning tools is quite simply, brilliant.

Once again, I think the more people can break out of their desperate need to view the X interface in terms of how their former working patterns have conditioned them to expect operations to work - the better it will work for them.

Yes, it takes learning. But increasing numbers of us have also learned that it REWARDS that effort greatly.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 15, 2012 at 7:38:40 pm

[Bill Davis] "Once again, I think the more people can break out of their desperate need to view the X interface in terms of how their former working patterns have conditioned them to expect operations to work - the better it will work for them."

Bill, I was in agreement with you until you say crud like this.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 15, 2012 at 7:46:44 pm

[Chris Harlan] "[Bill Davis] "Once again, I think the more people can break out of their desperate need to view the X interface in terms of how their former working patterns have conditioned them to expect operations to work - the better it will work for them."

Bill, I was in agreement with you until you say crud like this."



Me too. You make a lot of great points Bill, can we dispense with the "you fools just don't understand it" rhetoric? I think it would help your case. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Bill Davis
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 15, 2012 at 8:02:41 pm

I honestly don't write stuff like that to try to make people feel that I think they're foolish.

But I see it does. So I apologize.

I'm truly just reflecting something I keep seeing over and over and over again.

Looking back, the word "desperate" which was a mild tossaway in my head when I wrote it is easy to see as extremely perjorative. So, again, I apologize for that very poor choice of term and want to make it clear that I don't feel editors who don't like X are wrong not to like it.

If it doesn't fit someones style or preferences, that's fine.

But there IS an underlying point behind this.

I still believe that everyone (myself totally included) underestimated how deeply difficult it would be to get an entire generation of editors to think in new concepts about some fundamental editing operations.

And I still see DEEP resistance to X expressed not in terms of how it DOES work, but in terms of how experienced editors think it SHOULD work based on their totally reasonable operating conditioning that provides a very real barrier to some of the new thinking.

I express that very inartfully at times, and I see that it offends people.

Once again, sorry.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Fcp x no sub edits?
on Dec 15, 2012 at 9:44:50 pm

Bill, thanks for saying all of that, and for clarifying your feelings.


[Bill Davis] "I still believe that everyone (myself totally included) underestimated how deeply difficult it would be to get an entire generation of editors to think in new concepts about some fundamental editing operations.

And I still see DEEP resistance to X expressed not in terms of how it DOES work, but in terms of how experienced editors think it SHOULD work based on their totally reasonable operating conditioning that provides a very real barrier to some of the new thinking.
"


I agree with you that a whole lot of negativity about X comes from people not understanding how to use it, and I can see how that would be very frustrating if its a toolset that you've embraced and used, marvelously, to your advantage. So, yeah, no foul.


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