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First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.

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Andrew Kimery
First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 3, 2012 at 8:07:02 pm

After many years using FCP Legend in a multi-editor environment working off an Xsan I'm on a new gig utilizing Avid 6.5 and ISIS in a similar situation and, I must say, I'd forgotten how well Avid works in a setup like this. While you can certainly create workflows and workarounds to use FCP Legend in a shared storage, multi-editor capacity it's not nearly as smooth. It's also a bit of a 'return to my roots' as Avid was the first NLE I learned (followed by Premiere, not Pro, and FCP Legend).

Even though it's been nearly six years since I used Avid it started coming back to me within just a few days of being on the job. My FCP muscle memory, and the new Smart Tool, betray me every now and again but Avid's largely unchanged interface has certainly helped me hit the ground running (which is very important as I'm assisting right now so I need to be even more capable with the software than if I was editing). Using ISIS is nice as well since it has a 'post friendly' front end on it as opposed to trying to manage an Xsan which is an IT solution pressed into service for video post production.

The project parameters defining the frame rate & frame size of imported media is taking getting used to again, but features like the Open Bin command and being able to update projects at the Finder level is great and something I've really missed while working in FCP-land. I know many chafe against MC's 'rigidity' but I think the trade off is worth it more often than not. Once the show is in full swing we'll be supporting almost a dozen editors, each cutting their own act of a specific episode, and shared episode projects that are going to have thousands of stills and videos each. Doing the same show in FCP Legend would certainly require a different, and more clunky IMO, approach than what we are doing now.

Overall I still wish Avid MC and FCP Legend had had a baby (Avid's back end file management and FCP's GUI) with a sprinkling of FCPX on top (things like keywords and background tasks).




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Michael Garber
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 3, 2012 at 8:39:24 pm

Andrew - funny that you posted this today because I spent the weekend re-training on Media Composer. I came to much the same conclusion. Multi-user workflow is solid. I was lucky to learn from a great editor who works in commercials and who I actually taught FCP legacy. So, it was a nice trade-off. We could speak the same language. I've still got a long way to go, though.

Agreed that Avid's rigidity is a frustration to the (in my opinion) logical workaroundability of FCP legacy that I was used to. Avid has a solid workflow and so much TV and film have been made on it. And yeah, it has it's tradeoffs and plenty of bugs, too.

It does exactly what I want it to do with second source audio using the Autosync function. And it looks like Pluraleyes can now plug into Avid. Subclipping is brilliant in that you can trail back to the original clip with original source audio. Change a filename in a bin and, boom, it changes in the timeline.

Effects, well, don't work the way I want them to - but, they work! And plenty of people use them. Scriptsync is a brilliant function when you have a script or transcriptions.

I've spent a year and a half with FCPX and, for me, it's ok... sometimes. And yeah, it'll mature, bla bla bla, we've heard this a million times on the forum. I might use it on an overseas news shoot/edit that will shoot DSLR and non-timecoded second source audio. But overall I've come to the conclusion that it has it's limits and I don't have time to troubleshoot them anymore. I really need a tool to work the way I expect it to and to fit in well in my working environment (which is LA). So that's why I'm diving back into Avid to re-learn the ins and outs.

Also, not trying to cast a negative light on any FCPX or FCPX editors here. I see that you can do some amazing things with the software. These are my opinions about where FCPX and Avid fall in my career right now, given months of meticulous use and based on years of experience. I respect your NLE choice and opinions, too.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company
Bloggy Blog: GARBERSHOP


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Steve Connor
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 3, 2012 at 8:43:47 pm

Despite that fact that I use FCPX, If I was in charge of a multi-user environment, I'd be choosing Avid too.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Andrew Kimery
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 3, 2012 at 9:41:15 pm

[Michael Garber] "Effects, well, don't work the way I want them to - but, they work! "

Yes, the way effects are handled has been one of the bigger things to readjust to. That certainly is an area where MC feels dated/constrained.




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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 3, 2012 at 9:46:52 pm

the russian nested dolls effects setup? I didn't see that coming. and no native geometrics?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 4, 2012 at 1:55:00 am

Unlike many here, I've never been completely away from Avid work. In recent years it's amounted to a few gigs a year with otherwise FCP7 work. After several months of banging away solidly with only X, I recently jumped back in on an MC gig and was quite happy with how much more solid it felt. This was in spite of passing the project between editors, TC issues with source material and roundtrips with audio and color grading houses. In both situations it was less of a hassle than with 7 and significantly better than the hoops I have to jump through with X. I'm also not trying to slam X here. The point is that so many here seem to slam Avid systems, based on old memories from a decade ago without much current knowledge with an updated version of the software.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Neil Goodman
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 4, 2012 at 2:25:45 am

I dont really understand peoples reluctance to Media Composer either, been using it forever and its never let me down. Its my rock. I like the other NLE"s for different stuff and freelanced on FCP for years at home like millions of others but always go back to Media Composer when giving the choice and especially in Multi user workflows.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Shane Ross
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 4, 2012 at 5:08:45 am

I'm in a multiseat Avid setup with EditShare, and love the project sharing capabilities and solid media management. My previous gig was Avid too, and remote workflow...I'd just send the project file or CUTS bin back to Virginia and they'd reconnect without any fuss or muss.

And the software has improved a lot too, so working with the media on the timeline is much slicker.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Harlan
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 4, 2012 at 6:43:37 am

Guess I'll throw my 2 cents as well. I'm enjoying it quite a bit. I know stalwarts don't like the Smart Tools, but I'm very thankful for their addition. The improvements have been terrific. I love the ability to open other bins. I'm quite happy working on it right now. So, a big "me too."


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Neil Patience
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 4, 2012 at 11:43:14 am

Like Chris add a "me too" - I largely work on Avid often with Interplay and often in a multi-user environment and in that situation I don't think any other NLE is a mature or solid. Of course it has its moments but Media sharing is usually trouble free and it allows easy collaboration, bin and project sharing which in tight turnaround situations can be a lifesaver. I am often working on part of a story with another editor working on a 2nd part. Generally its pretty seamless.
I am in London and my legacy gigs have almost dried up over the last year, mostly due to my clients that had it switching to Avid.

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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Andrew Kimery
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 5, 2012 at 9:44:17 am

[Shane Ross] "I'm in a multiseat Avid setup with EditShare, and love the project sharing capabilities and solid media management. My previous gig was Avid too, and remote workflow...I'd just send the project file or CUTS bin back to Virginia and they'd reconnect without any fuss or muss. "

This reminds that I always wished Media Managing in FCP was as useful as consolidating in MC. Once you MM something with handles in FCP it's very hard to go back to the source again.




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Walter Soyka
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 4, 2012 at 8:45:28 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Unlike many here, I've never been completely away from Avid work. In recent years it's amounted to a few gigs a year with otherwise FCP7 work. After several months of banging away solidly with only X, I recently jumped back in on an MC gig and was quite happy with how much more solid it felt."

Oliver, I'm curious: what (if anything) did you miss about FCPX when hopping over to MC, and what (if anything) were you most excited about having in MC that you miss in FCPX?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 4, 2012 at 9:12:48 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Oliver, I'm curious: what (if anything) did you miss about FCPX when hopping over to MC"

I like the key wording and smart collections and skimming in the filmstrips.

[Walter Soyka] "and what (if anything) were you most excited about having in MC that you miss in FCPX"

Better trimming, tracks, more robust interchange with other applications. Better and more reliable rendering. Easier to move media files and projects between systems. Easier to manage projects without a separate application. The fact that every little GUI interaction doesn't have an associated animation to go with it. When I perform a keystroke, things happen right away. I know when audio is in sync. Better audio editing based on hearing audio and seeing a precise waveform.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 5, 2012 at 1:55:11 pm

[Oliver Peters] "so many here seem to slam Avid systems,"

I'm not slamming it. I'm not qualified to - I'm simply saying the effects setup is funky, and I'm used to clip native geometrics - thats all.

As an aside - I'm not referring to you here - but avid editors are the most defensive people on gods earth when it comes to criticising any aspect of the software.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Neil Patience
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 5, 2012 at 3:39:23 pm

Hey Aindreas as a very long term Avid user have to say I agree with you about the FX set-up it really has never been Avid's strong point and I much prefer the way Legacy handles it. In fact that was one of the main reasons that I used Legacy for my own work over Avid. That and the need for expensive Avid hardware at the time. Now my Kona 3 works so well I am slowly reverting to Avid in all scenarios but hell yeah the FX can be "funky"

[Aindreas Gallagher] "but avid editors are the most defensive people on gods earth when it comes to criticising any aspect of the software."

Really ? I have not found that so much, everyone has a good old moan about this or that, at least among the places I work.

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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Steve Connor
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 5, 2012 at 4:34:21 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I'm not slamming it. I'm not qualified to"

and yet you're qualified to slam FCPX? :)

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 5, 2012 at 5:45:19 pm

indeed good sir, I know no one believes me, but I have actually been at FCPX half properly for a while now. way more than avid, and lets face it - that just makes no sense.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 5, 2012 at 7:23:47 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] " I'm simply saying the effects setup is funky, and I'm used to clip native geometrics - thats all"

I completely agree. That being said, I've been able to do more sophisticated compositing on Media Composer than I ever have in legacy or now in X. In spite of the fact that MC is generally regarded as a pretty poor compositor. I've successfully driven composites 50+ video tracks deep through collapsing on a system that technically maxes out at 24 video tracks.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "but avid editors are the most defensive people on gods earth when it comes to criticising any aspect of the software."

LOL. With the possible exception of folks here! ;-) OTOH, just get in the middle of some of the DS versus Symphony battles! Oh baby....

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 5, 2012 at 7:40:24 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Aindreas Gallagher] "but avid editors are the most defensive people on gods earth when it comes to criticising any aspect of the software."

LOL. With the possible exception of folks here! ;-)"


I can also tell you from having worked at Avid, those editors are the LEAST shy about criticizing Avid for any and everything. LOL I have no problem with that, nor did I at the time.

But I think you're talking more about 10 years ago Aindreas, when Avid editors felt under seige by FCP, and were being defensive about their JOBS -- a lot of the same dynamic here in the first year of FCPX. The difference being that Avid guys were actually losing jobs, whereas I don't know of anyone whose lost a job to an FCPX editor.

By the time I left Avid in 2006, I'm not sure I could have named you an Avid editor who wasn't also using FCP, or at least someone else in the office, and using it for real work. Indeed, Avid editors also using FCP was the basis for a considerable amount of their criticism and feature requests to us.

That's an issue in this forum, yes? Talking about the present when we say we're talking about the present? LOL


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 5, 2012 at 8:38:13 pm

ara sure - I'm generalising off not a lot, just a few soho guys, and well, basically my mate, who's a senior online - he gave us the days worth of intensive avid run down - there's tons of seriously good stuff - I mean, Avid's a tank really, and that whole throwing bins around stuff is truly neato - but my lord he took some umbrage when I started getting snarky about effects living inside effects, I unwisely chose to up the snark, and the umbrage went rapidly to code amber. ;)

it required tea and biccies diplomacy to defuse the situation. hob nobs.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Neil Patience
Re: First non-FCP Legend gig in a long time.
on Dec 5, 2012 at 11:00:13 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "it required tea and biccies diplomacy to defuse the situation. hob nobs."
Hob Nobs! - now thats like defcon 2 - you must have hit his snark bomb.
I mean where do you go if Hob Nobs fail ? A custard creme isn't going to cut it. I can only imagine a chocolate Hob Nob is left ?

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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