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I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)

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Carsten Orlt
I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 7:25:53 am

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/echoexpresschassis.html

Why on earth would you build a large, limited number of slots tower when you can do all the expansion via Thunderbolt now?

Might not be fully bullet proof now but I think this is the future of where at least Apple will be heading (no proof, just speculation!)

This also fits into the trend I think Apple is following and making less software that can do all, but more smaller packages which covers the majority of users and leave the specialised stuff for 3rd party.

Just an observation and open for discussion :-)

Happy editing


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Shane Ross
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 7:46:52 am

[Carsten Orlt] "Why on earth would you build a large, limited number of slots tower when you can do all the expansion via Thunderbolt now?"

Because the towers have slots that are 16 lane speed. Thunderbolt is only 4 lane...so very slow in comparison. Plus top out with a two slot chassis, no? MacPro's have 4...one with a graphics card. Many apps want a nice BEEFY card (Motion, After Effects, Premiere Pro, Resolve to name a few) that might take up two lanes. Or multiple cards. And then you also need your capture card, and expansion for storage or Red Rocket.

So...you are very limited with this option. Having a PC with more than 4 slots (a lot have 8) is a better option anyway.

[Carsten Orlt] "Might not be fully bullet proof now but I think this is the future of where at least Apple will be heading (no proof, just speculation!)"

Correct. Apple is proving over and over that they are going to make consumer level stuff and rely on third parties to make it pro. Witness all the add ons you need to make FCX work at a pro level. Notice the expansion chassis needed now to add pro level hardware...notice that Apple is pushing Minis, iMacs and laptops with recent upgrades, but the towers are 2 years (now 2.5) behind.

[Carsten Orlt] "
This also fits into the trend I think Apple is following and making less software that can do all, but more smaller packages which covers the majority of users and leave the specialised stuff for 3rd party."


Yup...meaning they can't be bothered with doing things many pros need. They only want to make stuff that most people (non-pros) use, and let other people work on the other things.

Every day I use Avid or Premiere, and note a small thing it can't do, that FCP Legacy, a 3 year old app does, I shake my head. Every day I think about FCX and what it can't do, and where it is now...ugh. I know it's not for me. But they took all of this great stuff that FCP 7 had and just tossed it. And a lot of it is better than what current NLE's offer. And Apple cast it aside.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Carsten Orlt
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 8:17:26 am

[Shane Ross] "Every day I use Avid or Premiere, and note a small thing it can't do, that FCP Legacy, a 3 year old app does, I shake my head."

I would be interested if you could provide examples to what you mean specifically. Not because I doubt you but because I'm curious!

[Shane Ross] "Because the towers have slots that are 16 lane speed"

I might be wrong but the Sonnet chassis has 16x. Do you mean thunderbolt can't transport more than 4x?

Happy ediying


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Shane Ross
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 9:59:36 am

[Carsten Orlt] "I would be interested if you could provide examples to what you mean specifically. Not because I doubt you but because I'm curious!"

The ability to mix audio levels with keyboard commands by simply highlighting the clips I want and...using the keyboard. With Avid, I have to make keyframes first, even if I want to lower the overall level. Then, I need to lasso ONLY those keyframes. Adobe? Don't get me started at how tedious audio mixing is there. ONE clip at a time, not really easy to do.

The fact that FCP can output 23.98 as 59.94 via any hardware option (AJA, Decklink, Matrox)...the PLAYBACK option sets up the signal feed you are sending the card. Avid rigidly sets it to the project frame rate...a pain for people who's TVs or monitor's can't do 23.98.

Copy and paste clip properties.

The ability to deactivate clips...keep them on the timeline but make them invisible. Or silent.

Output a split track digital master (Avid can do this...Adobe? NOPE!!)

Log and Transfer... You can mark IN and OUT points on the footage you want...you don't need to ingest the full clip. Avid have this? No...well, yes, if you go through like 15 steps and transcode. Adobe...yes, if you use Prelude. But then in FCP if you lose a drive, or delete the clips and want to BATCH CAPTURE (import/transcode) again, you can! Adobe? NOPE! Avid...sure.

The media management in FCP...I can put the clips where I want, organize them on the Finder Level, THEN import them into FCP. Talking about captured or imported clips. I might have a capture project where I capture it all, then organize...then import. I can keep my footage organized by project type. AVID? NOPE!!! All media goes into one folder. You have no clue what clip is with what project. You can't import just those clips, you have to use the Media Tool...organize inside the project only. But then again Avid has strengths with this...but still, in FCP it was so easy. Adobe? Only if you use Prelude and transcode. Go native and things might get complicated. Oh, and Adobe's media management SUCKS!! Reconnecting clips is more complex than FCP...and that isn't rock solid.

The sheer about of plugins and effects I have. In Avid, I'm severely lacking. Adobe is getting better, thank GOD FX Factory works there too. Still, pickin's are slim.

Can capture and output to tape via a hardware card. DIRECTLY into the NLE. FCX...NO! Adobe...not really. Full of issues, so people capture with FCP, or the IO capture tool. Output with FCP or the IO Tool...same with FCX. Avid...yeah, that works WELL. Even with third party. It's solid.

The mixer works on a CLIP level. The mixer in Adobe? TRACK LEVEL. Royal pain. Never seen anything do that, and I don't get why it functions like that. I've been told why, but still, it's inane that you cannot adjust clips at this level, and gang audio to do multiples in one swoop.

Ability to modify timecode of clips, and it change it on the QT file.

I could go on, but I don't know the rest at the moment. And it is late, and I'm getting off a 12 hour 6th day.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Carsten Orlt
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 10:59:28 am

I can hear your pain :-)

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Happy editing.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 12:30:14 pm

I know I can always trust Shane and some others to let Adobe have it with both barrels. Ouch!

In all seriousness and Shane will hopefully agree, Adobe is aware of the issues and listening to the customers and most importantly working on correcting many of the common complaints on things like Premiere Pro.

To be fair, Premiere Pro gets these complaints now because we're offering an alternative that is acceptable in many cases (but not all) to FCP7 users. It should be any software vendors purpose to delight their customer. We're doing that with many but we see more that can be done to please you.

We are aware of all of the things mentioned in this thread and we are hard at work... ;-)

Finally, I will mention some of the things that Premiere Pro does really well because it is these things that makes people want all of the other things. Apologies if I sound a bit 'market-y' here:
- Best overall real-time performance
- best use of GPU
- best ability to mix and match media on the same timeline
- best overall integrated workflow with things like Photoshop, After Effects, Adobe Media Encoder, etc.
- best playback engine (does't stop playing and lets you adjust effects while playing)
- adjustment layers
- cross platform compatibility
- solid (perhaps the best) overall support of new cameras and formats

In the end, I've always stated that every NLE has it's pros and cons. To say otherwise is to betray your bias. Use what you want and be sure to obey this one rule - have fun!

Adobe's promise to you - keep working hard to make you happy and earn your business.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Andy Field
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 2:33:41 pm

Re: Dennis Radeke's response to Shane's list o Premiere issues....

Great that Dennis and other Adobe folks are here reading and listening. Apple's top people don't respond in this or any other forum that I can see.

Adobe is extraordinary in their responsiveness. I just finished our first all Premiere long form project and everything that Shane mentioned is correct - especially the media management and audio mixing headaches. The Adobe team is working to fix that. Overall it was a terrific experience and a very easy transition from FCP 7.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Steve Connor
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 3:33:43 pm

[Andy Field] "especially the media management and audio mixing headaches. "

Clearly Adobe are listening, but haven't these things been problems for a number of years?

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Dennis Radeke
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 9:07:01 pm

Steve,

I would say yes and no. one example is media management. Media management is an issue that has grown slowly over a number of years. I would say that it has grown a lot with the advent of cheap, high quality, file-based cameras. All three of those characteristics are necessary (cheap, good and file-based)...

Have some issues existed for Adobe products for more than one cycle - you betcha. That is also true for all other NLEs. For example, FCP7 never really addressed media management.

At the end of the day, you choose your tools based on a number of factors. I respect everyone's right to choose and only responded to Shane's post in order to say a) hey yeah, we know we have some things to work on b) hey, we do some really cool things too.

Cheers,
Dennis


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Shane Ross
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 6:34:54 pm

Hee, thanks Dennis. I know you are listening, and that you are working on things. I really like Adobe and how far it has come. And I really like Avid and how far it has come. There are just those small little things that miss in FCP Legacy that made me realize how great it was.

I'm really psyched about Adobe because they are listening, and making great steps in what i consider to be the right direction. And I'm glad that I can be truthful about my concerns and you all take it with grace. I certainly cannot say the same thing about Apple.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steve Connor
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 7:02:15 pm

[Shane Ross] "I'm really psyched about Adobe because they are listening, and making great steps in what i consider to be the right direction. And I'm glad that I can be truthful about my concerns and you all take it with grace. I certainly cannot say the same thing about Apple.
"


Some of us may argue that actually Apple are making as many if not more steps in the right direction than Adobe are - Viewer window, PIOPs, RED Workflow, roles and more. These are clearly responses to customer requests, just because they don't post on forums doesn't mean they are not listening. Adobe have some holes in Premiere, Dennis tells us they are being worked on, but in real terms we're not being told WHEN things are going to fixed or changed in PPro are we?

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Shane Ross
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 7:35:44 pm

[Steve Connor] "Some of us may argue that actually Apple are making as many if not more steps in the right direction than Adobe are - Viewer window, PIOPs, RED Workflow, roles and more."

You know, that's a good point. They have been listening. They are still selective as to what they will implement, but I can see that as they have an idea as to what the future will be. Not too up on what is currently needed, but their eye is always where the ball will be. Many of us need to be where the ball is.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steve Connor
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 7:38:58 pm

[Shane Ross] " but their eye is always where the ball will be. Many of us need to be where the ball is."

Nicely summed up.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Dennis Radeke
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 9:17:46 pm

[Steve Connor] "Viewer window, PIOPs, RED Workflow, roles and more. These are clearly responses to customer requests"

Steve, While this is true, these are nearly all of them are catch up requests or innovative workarounds to the way all other NLE's work. So, while I agree that Apple is listening (Avid and others too), in their case they are putting BACK features that existed in FCP7. I think it's an important difference. BTW - I don't know what PIOPs are, so maybe I'm wrong on that one...

[Steve Connor] "Adobe have some holes in Premiere, Dennis tells us they are being worked on, but in real terms we're not being told WHEN things are going to fixed or changed in PPro are we?"

Steve - quite honestly, any publicly traded company cannot announce when things come because of Sarbanes-Oxley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbanes%E2%80%93Oxley_Act As it is, we are public about saying that Adobe is on a yearly release cycle. Of all the major NLE vendors I think most people would agree that Apple does not win the blue ribbon for best communication historically. I can't say it any more politely than that! ;-)

I see that you've made a choice for FCP X and that's great and I'm not trying to disuade you. I hope I am being a respectful part of the community and contributing to the knowledge and craft of our industry. Nothing more.

Thanks for chiming in.


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Steve Connor
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 9:31:47 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "While this is true, these are nearly all of them are catch up requests or innovative workarounds to the way all other NLE's work. So, while I agree that Apple is listening (Avid and others too), in their case they are putting BACK features that existed in FCP7."

True in some respects, but that's not all they are doing, take Roles for an example, you could call them an innovative workaround or you could call them an important new way of managing a timeline that has excellent potential.

[Dennis Radeke] "As it is, we are public about saying that Adobe is on a yearly release cycle. Of all the major NLE vendors I think most people would agree that Apple does not win the blue ribbon for best communication historically. I can't say it any more politely than that! ;-)"

True, but what I'm saying is that in reality Adobe aren't actually TELLING us anything beyond the fact that you are listening and that you know the areas that need to be addressed, even if some of them have been problems for considerably more than one release cycle.

[Dennis Radeke] "I see that you've made a choice for FCP X and that's great and I'm not trying to disuade you"

Yes I have, but I'm a Creative Cloud subscriber too and I also use PPro for occasional jobs too. I was also Premiere user from Version 5 to 6.5

[Dennis Radeke] "I hope I am being a respectful part of the community and contributing to the knowledge and craft of our industry."

You absolutely are and you are a very welcome member of this community.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Michael Gissing
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 9:51:08 pm

For the on the road editor or just someone with a simple setup and the machine in the same room the big tower approach makes less sense now with Thunderbolt. But a facility with machine rooms, shared storage and need for lots of PCI cards, big towers with many slots makes more sense in my opinion.

I have been frustrated by the lack of slots in my MacPro and it is partly behind my reasoning to switch back to Win & PC hardware. Thunderbolt on a Mac doesn't solve those problems but I can see the appeal for a one man edit setup.

Software magically seems to bloat with increased hardware processing power. My old DOS based audio edit system, dSP used to fit the GUI and operating software on a single floppy and edit as fast as my latest Fairlight on a Win 7, i7 grunt box.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 10:13:13 pm

[Steve Connor] "True, but what I'm saying is that in reality Adobe aren't actually TELLING us anything beyond the fact that you are listening and that you know the areas that need to be addressed, even if some of them have been problems for considerably more than one release cycle.
"


sure, but there is a real quality of life difference in the culture

look at this chain: phillip bloom highlights this:

http://philipbloom.net/2012/07/07/premiereicons/

and then the actual bloody adobe blog follows it:

http://blogs.adobe.com/kevinmonahan/2012/09/20/smaller-premiere-pro-cs6-tri...

that is adobe tipping the cap and highlighting the ability to modify its own core onscreen icons.

That's a car mechanic to car mechanic ethos. I'm not going to get that stuff from the apple genius bar.

Apple might consider bifurcating pro-app communications. A guy walking into vodafone for an iphone is deeply unlikely to know apple are giving editing musings away.

Also it would stagger the pro community. massive free positive publicity, and clean rain over the launch debacle. I bet there are guys in apple who would love to chew the hash over PIOPS - I actually think they should be allowed to - fly a pirate flag if needs be.

And also look - there's no way we don't want PPro 6.5/7 to be anything less than a first rank field player. London has a bit of an avid sky closing overhead.

which is fine and all - but you know what I mean.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 4, 2012 at 7:50:15 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "sure, but there is a real quality of life difference in the culture"

Absolutely, I think it's great that Adobe engage their users so well

[Aindreas Gallagher] "And also look - there's no way we don't want PPro 6.5/7 to be anything less than a first rank field player. London has a bit of an avid sky closing overhead.
"


True as well, I'm confident that Adobe are trying their hardest to fit into the gap left by FCP7 and I hope they do well.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Kevin Monahan
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 11:23:39 pm

[Steve Connor] "True, but what I'm saying is that in reality Adobe aren't actually TELLING us anything beyond the fact that you are listening and that you know the areas that need to be addressed, even if some of them have been problems for considerably more than one release cycle."

That isn't true. Adobe has technology previews all the time. You can definitely see the technology we're working on for future new features. Here are some examples:

Warp Stabilizer
Audio "Rub a dub"
Adobe Edit Anywhere
More Adobe TV Sneaks

We are constantly showing our new technology, much of which gets integrated into new features for our video products. Just take a look around.

As far as fixing longer standing bugs, we are doing the best we can given the staff and time constraints we have.

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 4, 2012 at 12:48:20 am

and that was put a lot better than I could.

in terms of my own noodling - adobe anywhere - honest to god is anyone, (at all?), curious about the implications of adobe's potential effort there?

I'm a bit surprised we don't bat around the potentially broad implications of anywhere. It has undergone full public demos - in a suite that costs thirty quid a month. thats less than a sky subscription.

on a personal note - the 3D camera tracker for graphic elements in AE6 is ludicrously effective software. I just plopped a ton of camera tracked GUI stuff over Sony products at IFA berlin with it. Its a tank. the warp stabiliser speaks for itself.

honest to god - the point is that I somehow don't think editing types have fully internalised adobe's real long term intellectual heft . - because they haven't, to this point, met them in editing.

I've personally been at AE since about 4.1. in 2000(?) - when they executed multiple masks on a single layer.

Adobe execute - sometimes at their own pace - but they are rabid savage right now after editing in case anyone is curious - they are foot to the floor

Adobe are supposed to be an editing provider. It's a really good idea that happens, because they face multiple, strong, existential editing competition.

they're not facing pixelmator: they're facing Avid - and Apple - their bête noire.
Isn't it perfect?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 4, 2012 at 11:18:21 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "in terms of my own noodling - adobe anywhere - honest to god is anyone, (at all?), curious about the implications of adobe's potential effort there? I'm a bit surprised we don't bat around the potentially broad implications of anywhere."

Anywhere looks amazing. I saw the NAB sneak peak in-person, where they ran the Anywhere server in San Jose with an editor working on-stage in Las Vegas and another (connected via video conference for the audience's benefit) working on the same production in Seattle. There were a good number of dropped jaws and raised eyebrows in the house.

I'm not surprised we don't talk about it too much here. Anywhere looks to be a pretty big-iron system (we're talking servers and clusters), and we don't really focus on those here.

If you have not read the IBC-era fxguide tech article on Adobe Anywhere [link] yet, click that link as fast as you can. There are a few things in particular that strike me as very interesting from an underlying-technology/philsophy perspective, even if Anywhere itself is a bigger solution than I'll need:

First and foremost, Anywhere is a multi-user, shared, simultaneous-access database with conflict resolution. It doesn't think in terms of project files; it thinks in terms of productions.

The Collaboration Hub has an API so that facilities can write their own hooks into the system, making it open and extensible. It is designed to work with existing asset management systems.

Anywhere is built for private clouds.

Anywhere has a cool proprietary codec for streaming high-quality video.

Pr/Anywhere can start cutting footage locally while it uploads to the production server in the background.

Finally, here's a choice quote from the article:

"The reason the company is announcing Anywhere at IBC is part of a strategy to get customers to start working on the software and provide feedback before a full release.

Coleman says that the idea for the software came from talking to a lot of customers about collaboration, and concluded that 'it’s not about the individual anymore. The competitive advantages comes when productivity improves. In today’s world, you just can’t talk about collaboration or working in a group without working remotely from one another.'"


Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 5, 2012 at 8:47:32 pm

you're actually the brains here walter - I've been making assumptions that the methodology for sharing and conflict resolution in anywhere would likely feed into a vastly more sophisticated project sharing architecture in premiere - big iron or no?

the biggest problem (i think) or at least, a biggie, is single project per go, with pretty dreadful media handling in terms of re-linking and stuff - its basically AE level, and thats probably not really a goer in the mid term.

I've been making assumptions that the production media sharing software project being executed by adobe there in anywhere would feed into a much stronger basis for project and media handling in premiere itself, big iron anywhere or no - in a twelve to eighteen month timeline?

it seems inconceivable that they would pull off something that sophisticated, but leave the default premiere project management and asset sharing where it is?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 5, 2012 at 5:10:13 pm

[Steve Connor] "[Dennis Radeke] "As it is, we are public about saying that Adobe is on a yearly release cycle. Of all the major NLE vendors I think most people would agree that Apple does not win the blue ribbon for best communication historically. I can't say it any more politely than that! ;-)"

True, but what I'm saying is that in reality Adobe aren't actually TELLING us anything beyond the fact that you are listening and that you know the areas that need to be addressed, even if some of them have been problems for considerably more than one release cycle.
"


I'm not sure this is a fair cop. Adobe has been pretty good about demonstrating what their thoughts are down the road. And the amount of support material they make available is almost overwhelming. From my perspective, Adobe is the absolute front runner in terms of trying to build a lasting relationship with the creative community.


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Steve Connor
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 5, 2012 at 5:58:14 pm

[Chris Harlan] " Adobe has been pretty good about demonstrating what their thoughts are down the road. And the amount of support material they make available is almost overwhelming. From my perspective, Adobe is the absolute front runner in terms of trying to build a lasting relationship with the creative community.
"


Absolutely, I agree with you on this, I'm not criticising Adobe at all, it's great that you get a few tech demos of future features, but like other NLE Companies they still play their cards close to their chest when it comes to fixes and when features will be available.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Chris Harlan
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 5, 2012 at 7:41:43 pm

[Steve Connor] "like other NLE Companies they still play their cards close to their chest when it comes to fixes and when features will be available."

True, as well. I think the issue exists in people's minds, not because other companies don't keep secrets, but because Apple made such a hard left with X.


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Craig Seeman
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 5, 2012 at 8:06:16 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I think the issue exists in people's minds, not because other companies don't keep secrets, but because Apple made such a hard left with X."

It wasn't just X as Apple did show that months in advance at the super meet but that EOL of FCS without a transition period rattled people. Even Apple's own history normally includes long transition periods. We've been down this road before. Apple's biggest problem is its PR in this regard.

Even though Apple's been more forth coming about "catch up" features, I don't think they're likely to talk ahead of anything major and new.



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Walter Soyka
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 5, 2012 at 8:44:52 pm

My amateur understanding of Sarbanes-Oxley is that if you talk about a new feature, you must defer revenue on the product until the feature is commercially available.

It's worth noting that Apple has yet to charge for an FCPX update -- so I'd guess there's no financial penalty for discussing their catch-up features. It'll be interesting to see what's in the first paid update, if such a thing occurs.

It's might also be worth noting that Adobe rolls out new features to Creative Cloud (subscription users) that are not available as free updates to Creative Suite perpetual licensees.

But I'm not a lawyer, so maybe I've misunderstood?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Kevin Monahan
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 5, 2012 at 8:05:29 pm

[Steve Connor] "but like other NLE Companies they still play their cards close to their chest when it comes to fixes and when features will be available."

Well, this makes sense though, doesn't it? You wouldn't want us to make promises we could not keep. To top if off, we're a public company. I'd say that most editors are not even aware of Sarbanes-Oxley and how much trouble we could get into for divulging what we're about to do.

As a video editor that came into the world of software programming via tech writing, it seems that users expect fixes and features are to be executed at the drop of a hat. It's not possible in most cases.

What users don't realize is how difficult it is to fix a long standing bug, or to create and test a new feature. Fixing bugs and creating features often break things in complicated software like Premiere Pro. Between the law and the complexity of maintaining and creating software, there's simply so much more than meets the "editor's eye."

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Bret Williams
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 4:43:54 am

PIOPs is actually a perfect example of how Apple isn't just listening, it's advancing and thinking forward beyond what they're "putting back." If Adobe thinks Apple is just finally getting around to "putting back" features, then they need to rethink their own strategy. They be playing catch up forever.

PIOPs is persistent in and out points. X didn't keep your in and out points. Mainly I think they couldn't figure out the way to implement it. But now, you can have multiple in and out points on a clip. What other NLE does that without some sort of sub clipping?

Just about every feature that we waited to have re-implemented has been done so with some sort of advancement / upgrade. Even the missing drop shadow came back with all sorts of cool perspective features. Obviously multicam got an upgrade.


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Brent Dunn
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 3:19:45 pm

I don't think Apple will get rid of the tower. They have already kept the same tower design for 5 years, which means, they don't plan on a major update, just sticking with what works. Now if they would have thought this way about software, we would all be happy.

Brent Dunn
Owner / Director / Editor
DunnRight Films
DunnRight Video.com
Video Marketing Toolbox.net

Sony EX-1,
Canon 5D Mark II
Canon 7D
Mac Pro
with Final Cut Studio Adobe CS6 Production






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David Powell
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 2:27:25 pm

Didn't avid add the FCP style mixing feature in the latest update? Manipulation from the keyboard?


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Bret Williams
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 4:30:10 am

It seems like most of your complaints about premiere are being addressed by X or in many cases X already operates like 7. I can adjust multiple clips at once, I can adjust ranges of Keyframes or even create ranges of Keyframes while its playing and adjust. It's definitely more powerful than 7 in the audio Keyframe arena.

And as for playing back 23.98 as 60i, obviously X does that on the same hardware. In my experience they function the same, although different hardware functions differently. With matrox I had to have my sequence settings match the video out settings. From there, the matrox hardware could add interlacing if you set the output to not follow the sequence. So for example I could have my 720p sequence be output as 1080i and 480i at the same time even. Both interlacing the 60 progressive frames. I would also interlace a 23.98 sequence as 60i if needed or switch it to 720p.

Are you saying that if I took my video out settings and set them as 60i for a 24p sequence that FCP 7 would actually add pull down? If that's true, then my bmd box just got more powerful because it doesn't have the conversion abilities in the matrox (or Aja). I don't need them as I'm never going to tape though.

But in X my capabilities are the same. Albeit I do have to quit the app the change the video out settings in the retrospective control panel.

So, in legacy, what happens when you drop 23.98 in a 1080i timeline? In X, you get perfect interlaced pull down added. I believe the same occurs in Premiere and Avid. Legacy just repeats frames, no interlaced pull down.

So from my point of view, most of the complaints about Adobe don't seem to exist with X, and I wasn't aware if the lack of log and transfer type options in Avid. The only relevant issue I heard about X was the tape in/out, which is mostly covered by the hardware folks. I believe AJA is going to be capturing directly to an event soon. But X has great log and transfer type options, and great simplified media management. Only downside there would be lack of some sort of tape batch recapture.

For me, you made the argument for X over Adobe and Avid by pointing out many shortcomings I wasn't aware of on those platforms. Shortcomings that I'm actually amazed weren't addressed like 10 years ago. And since legacy just doesn't really work that efficiently with new formats, mixed media and mixed frame rates, and has been eol'd for 18months, it isn't much of an option. Transcoding and using plural eyes on our 7D footage just doesn't have anything on using and syncing it automatically in X. And that's just one feature that better in X. I think the list of new/improved features in X has finally outgrown the list of features it's missing from 7.


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Carsten Orlt
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 4:48:22 am

[Bret Williams] "For me, you made the argument for X over Adobe and Avid by pointing out many shortcomings I wasn't aware of on those platforms. Shortcomings that I'm actually amazed weren't addressed like 10 years ago. And since legacy just doesn't really work that efficiently with new formats, mixed media and mixed frame rates, and has been eol'd for 18months, it isn't much of an option. Transcoding and using plural eyes on our 7D footage just doesn't have anything on using and syncing it automatically in X. And that's just one feature that better in X. I think the list of new/improved features in X has finally outgrown the list of features it's missing from 7."

I was thinking the same but didn't dare to write it :-)

I wonder if at one point Adobe has to rewrite Premiere because the underlying media management is not powerful enough as it was in 7, but I'm of course just teasing Dennis here as I have no software engineering knowledge :-)
Avid of course never had this particular problem, they are only stuck in a very old UI and related functionality which they can't escape because they have too many customers to loose if they change it.

But hey if it works for what you want to do who cares about the details of a particular package. Luckily we can choose. Though arguing about it is just too much fun for us geeks :-)

Happy editing


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 3:13:10 pm

[Bret Williams] " It's definitely more powerful than 7 in the audio Keyframe arena."

Bret,

You obviously missed the audio discussion last week.

FCP7 has a mixer which you can control with a mouse or a control surface (and thus, multiple tracks simultaneously and real-time); the mixer adds key frames to volume and pan parameters.

Great feature, and serviceable implementation. I think it's been there since 3 or 4.

Franz.


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Bret Williams
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 6:36:29 pm

It's a decent feature, and as I've been using FCP for 12 years, I was aware of the audio mixer an it's implementation and features. However, recording keyframes live for me has never been that great. A little less precise than I like. Reminded me of the old analog days where we'd pot up and down and keep redoing it to hope to get it right. Alright, it's a little more advanced than that.

But other than having a mixer, (the only way to do live audio in legacy), X is immensely a more powerful device. And as many have mentioned, a roles based mixer would be a neat addition in the future. Implementing a mixer in a non track based system is pretty tough. Roles is as close to tracks as there is.

For me, being able to actually SEE the waveform adjust up and down while I make changes to the tracks live and on the fly by adjusting them directly in the timeline is more powerful. I keep my eyes on the clips in the tracks and listen with my ears. In legacy I was constantly having to see the clip, then look for the corresponding track, then move over to the audio mixer and then adjust the virtual pot there instead of in the timeline which would of course stop if you started adjusting audio in the timeline.

Making and adjusting keyframes is mostly the same, except of course you can now create 4 keyframes instantly by dragging a range and then adjusting the volume. Huge time saver. And you can select clips while playing, and adjust their levels with keyboard shortcuts.

So I guess I see highlighting clips or groups of clips during playback and making keyboard adjustments on the fly or mouse adjustments on the fly, whether the playhead is even over them or not, and seeing their waveforms change as more powerful than hunting for the right track for the right clip on the audio tool to correspond at that moment to playback and attempt to adjust. The old method never did feel very natural to me and I was always stopping, highlight a group of clips (say VO) and making cmd+option L adjustments, then playing back and listening. I would use the mixer when trying to find an approximate level for a music track or VO track. A starting point usually. Then apply that level to all the clips, and then tweak from there. So X just took my methods that I found more natural, and allowed me to do them in real time without stopping playback.

Throw in all the new audio filters and tools that really work and are so much more visual than the audio filters in 7 and you really have a much more complete audio package within the app. Having to eliminate noise, or play with compression or loudness was hit or miss in legacy. I have found it to be very doable in X, and I'm not an audio guy by any means.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 6:48:58 pm

[Bret Williams] "But other than having a mixer, (the only way to do live audio in legacy), X is immensely a more powerful device."

Bret,

Yes, this was the nature of the other thread too - if you ignore or denigrate features outside of your preference, and focus on strengths and features within your preference, I have no doubt you can come to the conclusion you have.

[Bret Williams] "For me, being able to actually SEE the waveform adjust up and down while I make changes to the tracks live and on the fly by adjusting them directly in the timeline is more powerful"

I'm starting to think there is a fundamental divide between those who mix visually and those who mix aurally.

Franz.


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Bret Williams
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 9:56:37 pm

Aren't useful waveforms important in dedicated audio apps too? I also like using a vectorscope in conjunction with a video monitor. Anyway I must've missed the other thread. But my point is basically FCP X is a better, more powerful audio tool than legacy in every way, except that it doesn't have a mixer, which is of course a track based concept. If they add a mixer, it would make it a better app. It'll just have to be a roles mixer or something a bit different.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 10:19:58 pm

Bret,

[Bret Williams] "Aren't useful waveforms important in dedicated audio apps too?"

Absolutely. FCPX seems to have useful rectified waveforms, though Aindreas would disagree (so this is not an uncontroversial point).

[Bret Williams] " But my point is basically FCP X is a better, more powerful audio tool than legacy in every way, except that it doesn't have a mixer, ..."

I'm not convinced at all about "every way".

Definitely the plug-in implementation is better, but if you're comparing to FCP7 that doesn't say much (7 is and always was a disaster that way). How are 3rd party audio plug-ins? Any experience? Also does FCPX have native M/S decoding? (I think I've asked that before and not got a response).

I also like the core of the idea of how audio clips are implemented, collapsible and expandable in the timeline (though I don't have enough experience to have a good opinion on that).

[Bret Williams] "If they add a mixer, it would make it a better app. It'll just have to be a roles mixer or something a bit different."

If they add a mixer, I'll be very intrigued to see how they implement it. The implementation will be everything (see: PIOPs) and whether or not it will be a "better app" rests on that.

Franz.


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Bret Williams
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 4, 2012 at 4:17:37 am

You're right, comparing it to an audio engine from over 10 years ago isn't fair. But I was really just jumping off from Shane's assertion that 7 was better than Adobes audio in so many ways. I was saying, well, X has addressed this and that AND the core of it is more powerful as well. So if I can argue X is easily better than 7 in so many ways, and even 7 is arguably better than Premiere, then I think that speaks volumes to the argument for X vs Premiere. There is no argument as to X vs 7. Or at least there won't be much point in the near future. It's eol'd and done. The question here should be now what?

I forgot to mention how helpful editing audio at 1/100th of a frame increments is. However Premiere does do that.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 5, 2012 at 11:20:49 am

Well, like most things Bret, it's a matter of perspective. And my saying that 'every NLE does a few things better than the rest' can hold true in the area of audio for Premiere Pro as well.

Premiere Pro has had sample accurate audio editing since forever. It also has had sub-mixing buses, something that many legacy users had wanted. VST plugin support, inserts AND sends. Touch and Latch automation and probably a few more things as well. Do some other NLE's have a limited number of tracks you can use? really? Not Premiere Pro.

Shane's primary beef (I think) with Premiere Pro is that the audio mixer is track based rather than clip based. If you're a musician and you use a DAW, you're expecting a track based mixer. That said, you can do clip based audio mixing adjustments, they're just not quite as handy as users would like.

Point is, there's a diversity of users and even more opinions about audio. Avid, Apple and Adobe all have strengths and weaknesses as each solution tries to address as many types of users as possible.

Can we make some aspects of audio handling, mixing and the like better? Definitely. We'll keep on working on audio just like we're working on improving all of our products.


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Chris Harlan
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 5, 2012 at 3:31:24 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Well, like most things Bret, it's a matter of perspective. And my saying that 'every NLE does a few things better than the rest' can hold true in the area of audio for Premiere Pro as well.

Premiere Pro has had sample accurate audio editing since forever. It also has had sub-mixing buses, something that many legacy users had wanted. VST plugin support, inserts AND sends. Touch and Latch automation and probably a few more things as well. Do some other NLE's have a limited number of tracks you can use? really? Not Premiere Pro.

Shane's primary beef (I think) with Premiere Pro is that the audio mixer is track based rather than clip based. If you're a musician and you use a DAW, you're expecting a track based mixer. That said, you can do clip based audio mixing adjustments, they're just not quite as handy as users would like.

Point is, there's a diversity of users and even more opinions about audio. Avid, Apple and Adobe all have strengths and weaknesses as each solution tries to address as many types of users as possible.

Can we make some aspects of audio handling, mixing and the like better? Definitely. We'll keep on working on audio just like we're working on improving all of our products.
"


I have to second this. The overall quality of Premiere's audio is fantastic. I can't speak to improvements, since I've only just started paying attention to it in its current incarnation. It is a terrific package. It provides the best mixer, by far. To my mind, though its implementation misses a few things I like, it is the best audio package I've seen on an NLE (with the possible exception of Vegas, which I have not used in years, but started as a DAW.)

What I'd like to see most in its next implementation is Control Surface support, using a generic controller. But I'm very impressed with it as it is.


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jon smitherton
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 12:03:26 pm

[Shane Ross] "Copy and paste clip properties."

This has now been implemented in 10.0.6 - and you can actually select which plug-ins you want to paste. Nice feature.

[Shane Ross] " The ability to deactivate clips...keep them on the timeline but make them invisible. Or silent."

'Ctrl-B' in FCP7 is now 'V' in FCPX and has been there since it's initial release.

Jon.



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David Cherniack
Some Corections to Shanes Post
on Dec 6, 2012 at 2:34:33 am

Sorry I don't drop in here as much as I'd like. The to and fro is endlessly amusing and even sometimes informative.

Just a few corrections about Premiere Pro because many here seem to have taken your comments to be true when in fact they're sometimes completely or partially wrong.

[Shane Ross] "The fact that FCP can output 23.98 as 59.94 via any hardware option (AJA, Decklink, Matrox)...the PLAYBACK option sets up the signal feed you are sending the card. Avid rigidly sets it to the"

Premiere does this with all hardware options that I'm aware of.

[Shane Ross] "Copy and paste clip properties."

If you mean groups of audio video effects, it does this.

[Shane Ross] "The ability to deactivate clips...keep them on the timeline but make them invisible. Or silent."

Most certainly does this.

[Shane Ross] "Output a split track digital master (Avid can do this...Adobe? NOPE!!)"

I think 6.0 does this. with up to 8 tracks.

[Shane Ross] "Log and Transfer... You can mark IN and OUT points on the footage you want...you don't need to ingest the full clip. Avid have this? No...well, yes, if you go through like 15 steps and transcode. Adobe...yes, if you use Prelude"

You can do this straight within Premiere, too.

[Shane Ross] "The sheer about of plugins and effects I have. In Avid, I'm severely lacking. Adobe is getting better, thank GOD FX Factory works there too. Still, pickin's are slim."

Slim? Hardly. Most AE plugins work in PPro.

[Shane Ross] "Can capture and output to tape via a hardware card. DIRECTLY into the NLE. FCX...NO! Adobe...not really."

Yes, really. Using Matrox, Windows. I can't say for sure about Mac.

[Shane Ross] "Ability to modify timecode of clips, and it change it on the QT file"

Can do, though I've never tried it in a QT file because QT is excrement in Windows.

David

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Shane Ross
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 11:00:44 am

[Carsten Orlt] "
I might be wrong but the Sonnet chassis has 16x. Do you mean thunderbolt can't transport more than 4x?"


That's it. Thunderbolt is as 4x right now.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 12:07:32 am

[Shane Ross] "That's it. Thunderbolt is as 4x right now."

And besides GPU, right now, 4x is pretty good.

You can capture 1080p60 video over Thunderbolt and have the drive speed to do so.

Right now, 4x gets a "bad rap" in it's supposed incompetence, but right now, 4x is pretty damn fast.

For broadcast work, it's plenty.

GPU is another issue.

Intel is working on parallel CPUs in a product called Phi (http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/44185).

This would in my limited knowledge allow more processing power to attach through PCIe without much fuss.

As Thunderbolt increases in speed, these will increase computing pipe speed, and (theoretically) allow you to add more processors to whatever client host you have. Right now, you'd need a Xeon processor for Phi. Need more? Add more. Don't have any more PCIe slots? Add more external Thunderbolt boxes.

In theory anyway,

Jeremy


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Frank Gothmann
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 2:48:05 am

It's not just about speed, it's also about compatibility. Atto's latest adapters (ExpressSAS H6F0 GT) won't even work in a 4x slot anymore, it needs 8x.
Other cards will follow, it is just a question of time.



[Jeremy Garchow] "And besides GPU, right now, 4x is pretty good.

You can capture 1080p60 video over Thunderbolt and have the drive speed to do so.

Right now, 4x gets a "bad rap" in it's supposed incompetence, but right now, 4x is pretty damn fast.

For broadcast work, it's plenty."


------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Carsten Orlt
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 4:31:45 am

[Frank Gothmann] "It's not just about speed, it's also about compatibility. Atto's latest adapters (ExpressSAS H6F0 GT) won't even work in a 4x slot anymore, it needs 8x.
Other cards will follow, it is just a question of time."


And I think it's on list as being compatible: http://www.sonnettech.com/support/charts/thunderbolt/index.html
If of course this is the one you are talking about :-)

Happy editing


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Frank Gothmann
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 9:08:20 am

[Carsten Orlt] "And I think it's on list as being compatible: http://www.sonnettech.com/support/charts/thunderbolt/index.html
If of course this is the one you are talking about :-)"


It's not on the list (It's the card with the GT extionsion, it's a PCe3 8x card) and it doesn't work.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 4:50:34 am

[Frank Gothmann] "It's not just about speed, it's also about compatibility. Atto's latest adapters (ExpressSAS H6F0 GT) won't even work in a 4x slot anymore, it needs 8x.
Other cards will follow, it is just a question of time."


I'll wait. I can go plenty fast in terms of drive speed with thunderbolt connected to high speed data networks with machines that I simply couldn't a year or two ago.

There are SAS cards that do work with Thunderbolt today and I would be surprised if that card didn't work in an enclosure.

GPU or parallel processing, is a separate issue at this point, mostly from an OS perspective.

Although, if you look around, certain things are possible with thunderbolt and external GPUs, but nothing to bet the farm on quite yet.

Jeremy


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Chris Harlan
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 10:21:42 am

I'm thinking I'd go for this as my new bay.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2012/12/03/166230794/the-next-wo...


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 1:06:09 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I'm thinking I'd go for this as my new bay.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2012/12/03/166230794/the-next-wo....."


Awesome.

Willy Loman as a mobile office pioneer gave me a chuckle.


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Chris Harlan
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 6:22:07 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Willy Loman as a mobile office pioneer gave me a chuckle.
"


LOL> I'n not sure delivering the "a man is not a piece of fruit" speech from the back of a Bentley would be quite as effective, however.


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Walter Soyka
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 8:06:48 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Right now, 4x gets a "bad rap" in it's supposed incompetence, but right now, 4x is pretty damn fast."

I think this is a really important point.

Thunderbolt rocks. The MacBook Air Thunderbolt demo [link] you shared almost a year ago now is still most impressive.

Thunderbolt is not the solution for every need, but there are a great many needs where it is a very compelling solution.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 8:18:15 pm

[Walter Soyka] "almost a year ago now"

time sure does move in a hurry


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Walter Soyka
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 8:42:32 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "time sure does move in a hurry"

Just like Thunderbolt.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 5:52:54 pm

There's a need for Xeon and high GPU resources for some segment of the professional industry (not limited to video either).

I believe the MacPro replacement will have one or, hopefully two, 16 lane PCIe slots. 4x can be handed over to Thunderbolt. While we can daisy chain Thunderbolt, the chassis makers do want their boxes first in chain though. Place in the chain still impacts prioritization of resources.

I seriously doubt the MP replacement will be in a "tower" form. I have doubts about internal drive expansion.

[Shane Ross] "they are going to make consumer level stuff and rely on third parties to make it pro."

Thunderbolt throughout the entire computer lineup is decidedly not consumer. It seems it's being used for Video I/O, Drive/RAID, PCIe chassis. That one can move this to any product in the lineup is geared to the modern flexible pro.

In order for "third parties to make it pro" they have to provide the hooks. Still a work in progress but something they've proven they're doing. Third parties are undertaking the extensible work because they believe the demand is there.

Apple is building a very powerful "core." That's their focus. It's how they're handling FCPX and likely how they'll handle the MacPro replacement as well. It's about "commodity" not "consumer. The core can be used by many and be customized for the specialist. In a commodity economy that actually makes the good sense for business growth.



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Chris Harlan
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 8:15:58 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Thunderbolt throughout the entire computer lineup is decidedly not consumer. It seems it's being used for Video I/O, Drive/RAID, PCIe chassis. That one can move this to any product in the lineup is geared to the modern flexible pro."

Its being used that way by a lot of people. I am one of them. But to say its "decidedly not consumer" is, to my mind, not accurate. Thunderbolt is also--maybe even more so--an advance docking scenario. It first appeared on decidedly non-pro machines, and works very well as a docking station for those machines. Hook your "air" up to a monitor, and then plug everything else into the monitor. I'm not complaining about Thunderbolt; I find it very useful, but I don't think it holds up as a clear example of Apple's dedication to the "Professional."


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Craig Seeman
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 10:39:41 pm

[Chris Harlan] "It first appeared on decidedly non-pro machines, and works very well as a docking station for those machines"

Intel's design determined what machines would get it which is why no MacPro with Thunderbolt as of yet.
"Consumers" would be well served with USB3 and again Apple waited until Intel put that on the motherboard.

Given the cost of Thunderbolt devices, there's still not much in the way of use for them. Maybe single hard drives in which USB3 is less expensive and, where speed isn't needed, USB2 is fine? Passing through to a monitor? Or are you thinking consumers are spending $1000 For 27" Thunderbolt monitors to hook up to their MacMinis?

Thunderbolt, at this point, is designed for content creators.



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Chris Harlan
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 3:53:31 am

[Craig Seeman] "Thunderbolt, at this point, is designed for content creators.
"


I obviously disagree. But no reason to continue in circles.


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Bret Williams
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 2:29:26 am

Seems to me with legacy I utilized mpegstreamclip, plural eyes, and Sony XDCam transfer just to make it operate at a pro level. Or sometimes operate at all. For X I use 7 to X, just to play with the idea (which has been nearly pointless for anything but simple cuts and dissolves), and event X which is completely a luxury item and not neccessary.

My bmd box provides tape in/out if I need it, which I don't see happening.


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Walter Soyka
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 8:25:33 am

[Carsten Orlt] "Why on earth would you build a large, limited number of slots tower when you can do all the expansion via Thunderbolt now?"

A small, inexpensive system with Thunderbolt expansion is a great choice for editorial for a lot of users.

Some users (not all, not most) have high-bandwidth expansion needs that may be beyond Thunderbolt's limitations (like GPUs or higher-speed RAIDs).

Some users (not all, maybe not most, but probably still a good deal) can really benefit from the additional CPUs and RAM that you can stuff in a big tower but cannot throw on an expansion bus. I'll quote myself [link]:

[Walter Soyka] "A 2012 Mac Pro with 12 cores and 24 GB of RAM renders Brian Maffitt's Total Benchmark AE in 45 seconds. A 2011 iMac quad-i7 3.4 with 16 GB of RAM takes 101 seconds. (A 16-core Xeon E5 PC workstation with 32 GB of RAM like the ProMax ONE does it in 24 -- and that's why a modern Mac Pro would be important for creative pros on the Mac platform!) http://barefeats.com/sandy01.html http://barefeats.com/macs11_01.html"


A sizzle core beast workstation rendering something 4 times faster than an AIO iMac gives the artist using it more opportunity to iterate or refine his or her work. Computer performance has a real impact on creative output.

As with so many things we discuss on this forum, I think it's all about picking the right tool for the job, and understanding that different jobs may call for different tools.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Carsten Orlt
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 10:58:37 am

I understand all this, but if you think that you would build a very powerful central CPU unit that is small and inexpensive and can expand by Thunderbolt I think you have the same.

Basically I envision an Macmini on steroids and stackable to build as many CPU units as one wants and than you expand by external Thunderbolt connected expansions. Total scale ability.

Of course if Thunderbolt can't throughput at PCIe speed you have a bottleneck, but I think this will be changing.
I see a system of dedicated CPU, GPU and IO units coming that you can stack together like Lego :-)

Don't know if it is technical possible but I think it would be cool. If a new faster CPU comes out, you just switch the CPU unit and all the rest works as before. Would be way better than having to replace everything every time.

Happy editing.


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Michael Phillips
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 1:31:06 pm

Carsten Orit: Don't know if it is technical possible but I think it would be cool. If a new faster CPU comes out, you just switch the CPU unit and all the rest works as before. Would be way better than having to replace everything every time.

As great as that sounds, it doesn't sound like Apple to me. Everything they make is based on planned obsolescence. And that rate is accelerating. The business is built on volume and Apple is fantastic on monetizing every piece of it in their ecosystem. A laser focus on what most people do most of the time. Hardware, OS, purchasing, content (application or whatever). The latest OS update notification only seems to notify for applications available via the App Store, if not, the application now needs to update you whereas before it didn't and was part of the OS notification. Just little things that indicate a play with us or you're not really part of the Apple experience (all for a 30% cut). iOS is an even tighter ecosystem where Apple can also judge what goes in - some for good reason, others not.

All in the name of protecting the user experience... what was that 1984 commercial again?

I love my Macs, I love my PC's, but most of all I love the work I do and try to keep OS out of it, but it is a very interesting thing to watch Apple become the new Sony as an entertainment company from content to how it's consumed.


Michael


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Bill Davis
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 5:40:05 pm

[Walter Soyka] "A sizzle core beast workstation rendering something 4 times faster than an AIO iMac gives the artist using it more opportunity to iterate or refine his or her work. Computer performance has a real impact on creative output."

That's correct reasoning right now.

However, if the Thunderbolt roadmap develops through planned versions 2 and 3 (optical/copper hybrid and then full optical) the entire I/O pipeline will change.

After all, no matter how many garden hoses you bundle together to deliver water somewhere, at some point isn't just changing to a single firehose more efficient?

So in an data manipulation sense - if, in fact, larger pipes are on the horizon (no matter what form they take) at some point we have to stop thinking that the ONLY way to shuffle lots of data must continue to come in the forms that have been limited by our old buss speeds.

Right now that may be absolutely true. But for how long?

None of us want to be the user who bought the tower just before something arrives that makes the tower form inefficient.

Just speculating here.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 2, 2012 at 9:19:01 pm

[Bill Davis] "However, if the Thunderbolt roadmap develops through planned versions 2 and 3 (optical/copper hybrid and then full optical) the entire I/O pipeline will change"

ThB right now is certainly just a taste of what future versions will offer (though going full optical will mean no bus powered devices so I think copper will always be there if for no other reason than that). For a while now I've been speculating that Apple would offer something like a Mac Mini Pro with a number of ThB ports for expansion. A basic platform, if you will, and they'll leave it up to third parties to built ThB compatible storage, PCI extenders, etc., for expansion. Sounds kinda familiar, no? And it would certainly lower Apple's overhead from a manufacturing perspective to just offer a small 'base unit' and leave expansion up to after market gear.




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Michael Phillips
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 12:21:30 am

What happens to Thunderbolt if Apple abandons Intel for another processor?

Michael


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 2:17:21 am

We vaporize in to a pile of goo.

we will never make it out alive

!


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Carsten Orlt
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 4:34:36 am

You're so dramatic :-))

I actually think it doesn't matter as Apple is co-inventor of Thunderbolt and if they ever build their own chips they implement it on them too.

Happy editing


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Michael Phillips
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 11:05:35 am

I agree that Apple is the first to license, implement, and get it to market, but I believe that it is an Intel invention.

Michael


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 4:38:27 pm

You are correct Michael - here's a nice rundown of the history and specs of TBolt:

http://www.2ality.com/2011/02/thunderbolt-code-named-light-peak.html

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Rich Rubasch
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 5:44:01 pm

I have a reason a tower is a good thing....I have six of them in a rack. Everything is inside. I don't have room for a pile of tethered devices strewn about the server room. I don't want the Mac in the edit bay....we have quite and comfortable edit rooms because the tower is in the server room. We tether SATA JBOD boxes to the SATA cards in the MacPros. We can share drives that way. We have a solid Gigabit Ethernet network that serves our needs to edit projects over the network from machine to machine. Media is on different systems and we can share the media across the network. CCOR in one room, edit in another, sound in another all using the footage on one of the computers.

Think compatibility. I love Sonnett, but along the way some devices become obsolete with an OS upgrade. So the card inside the Sonnett box might be compatible, but the Sonnett box isn't so I have a big problem. Not picking on Sonnett....I like their stuff.

But Thunderbolt is new enough to the Mac community and these new devices are, well, new enough that building a six suite facility around them is quite risky and expensive.

I see the progression away from a Tower ending up with a pile of tethered devices that need to be near the Mac with compatibility issues and no one using the same hardware. Very hard to troubleshoot some of these things once the number of connections and devices goes up.

Yikes. Get me my MacPro!

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 6:10:11 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "I have a reason a tower is a good thing....I have six of them in a rack. Everything is inside. I don't have room for a pile of tethered devices strewn about the server room. I don't want the Mac in the edit bay....we have quite and comfortable edit rooms because the tower is in the server room. We tether SATA JBOD boxes to the SATA cards in the MacPros. We can share drives that way. We have a solid Gigabit Ethernet network that serves our needs to edit projects over the network from machine to machine. Media is on different systems and we can share the media across the network. CCOR in one room, edit in another, sound in another all using the footage on one of the computers. "

Provided there's a tower like computer with Thunderbolt, this won't slow you down in this regard, it will be the same. As a matter of fact, not that you'd want to, but you could do this with a MacMini today.

We have a machine room, too. The nice thing about it (if we get tower like computers with TBolt) is that I can rip out what I need to take with me, and replace it fairly easily.

Jeremy


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Craig Seeman
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 6:13:52 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "I see the progression away from a Tower ending up with a pile of tethered devices that need to be near the Mac with compatibility issues and no one using the same hardware."

I see a bunch of rack mountable/stackable gear. Replacing things should be easier than opening the Mac. Recabling a facility may be as easy as moving Thunderbolt cables around (which will become easier with optical).



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Bill Davis
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 7:32:14 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "I see the progression away from a Tower ending up with a pile of tethered devices that need to be near the Mac with compatibility issues and no one using the same hardware. Very hard to troubleshoot some of these things once the number of connections and devices goes up."

Yeah, well...

I suppose there's NO CHANCE that some outfit like Kensington, Anthro, et al would step up and make dedicated housings integrating all the pieces into a seamless unit with a single TB or equivelent cable to your monitor and mouse.

Nobody would imagine a market opportunity there, right?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Craig Seeman
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 4, 2012 at 12:10:26 am

[Bill Davis] "Nobody would imagine a market opportunity there, right?"

Oh Bill, don't you know that if a third party does it, it's not "pro." I mean if Apple doesn't start building RedRocket cards into the next MacPro they're just plan consumer boxes. And like who would ever want to hook a Pegasus RAID or AJA Io XT to their MacBook "Pro" or their 27" iMac. Like Apple should really build that stuff in.

:-)



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Andrew Kimery
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 8:15:42 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "I have a reason a tower is a good thing....I have six of them in a rack. Everything is inside. I don't have room for a pile of tethered devices strewn about the server room."

I can think reasons to keep towers around too, but I'm not sure if Apple feels the same way...




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Bill Davis
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 7:28:22 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "ThB right now is certainly just a taste of what future versions will offer (though going full optical will mean no bus powered devices so I think copper will always be there if for no other reason than that)"

Interesting in light of today's latest Apple Patent mess.

Got to make you wonder if their current patent saber rattling about electrical field re-charging via proximity might have a longer term strategic focus.

Imagine if you could use all-optical Thunderbolt in a world where wireless power distribution becomes practical.

Speculative, but sure is interesting to imagine.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 3, 2012 at 7:49:10 pm

[Bill Davis] "That's correct reasoning right now. However, if the Thunderbolt roadmap develops through planned versions 2 and 3 (optical/copper hybrid and then full optical) the entire I/O pipeline will change."

Sure, Thunderbolt today is good enough for most video I/O. Next-gen Thunderbolt will be even better. But I'm not talking about I/O. I'm talking about resources that expansion busses don't address: CPU and RAM.

Geekery:

Current Intel architecture puts the memory controllers directly on the CPUs (eliminating slower memory controllers), and uses QPI (QuickPath Interconnect) as the CPU interconnect (replacing the old front-side bus or FSB). The CPUs also connect via QPI to to an IOH (Input/Output Hub), which in turn connects to the PCIe controller (from whence Thunderbolt flows).

The separation between the system bus and the expansion busses means they do not need to be synchronized: the CPUs do not have to be slowed down to the speed of the expansion bus. This also allows the bus's controller to coordinate the expansion devices; without an expansion bus controller, the CPUs themselves must expend cycles intermediating expansion devices.

Thunderbolt will get faster, no doubt -- but remember that in terms of expansion, Thunderbolt (external packetized DisplayPort + PCIe) is itself a subset of PCIe with additional overhead. Also remember that while PCIe/TB speeds are improving, so too are CPU interconnect speeds improving. PCIe was never designed to connect CPUs and RAM, and it's unlikely that it will ever be the best solution for doing so.



[Bill Davis] "After all, no matter how many garden hoses you bundle together to deliver water somewhere, at some point isn't just changing to a single firehose more efficient? So in an data manipulation sense - if, in fact, larger pipes are on the horizon (no matter what form they take) at some point we have to stop thinking that the ONLY way to shuffle lots of data must continue to come in the forms that have been limited by our old buss speeds."

We're not talking about the limitations of our old bus speeds; we're talking about the limitations of our new bus speeds.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Walter Soyka
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 4, 2012 at 1:40:58 am

I'd love to discuss the second bit of the subject line.

Are you suggesting that big software suites are an anachronism?

With editors being tasked with ever-more responsibility (editorial, color, graphics, sound), I would think that suites and all-in-ones alike would be more valuable today than ever.

Or am I just being dense and missing the point?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Carsten Orlt
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 4, 2012 at 4:00:59 am

I was more teasing :-)

But I dislike bloated software in general, that's why I like FCPx. And I can see some development going towards to post pc area where you have many specific tools rather than one-fits-all. Of course they don't make a finished film, but they will make part of what you need to do. And because they're small in functionality they can be faster updated and maintained. But really this is all about what I like and not what I think WILL be happening :-)

Happy editing


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Bill Davis
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 4, 2012 at 4:36:28 am

I'll take a little of this on.

Let's just look at one small area of editing - color correction.

Once upon a time it wasn't a key part of the editing process at all. It was left to the field engineers to balance and shade the cameras to get them as "correct" as possible.

Then when NLE came along, there were fewer and fewer engineers, so camera matching fell to the editors in post.

Today I have two totally different approaches to color correction depending on whether or not I'm shooting what I edit or not.

Situation A is if I'm generating my footage myself, I consider the need for color correction to be largely a FAILURE of my execution in the field. It means I didn't take the time to shoot things properly. Maybe I didn't set the camera correctly, or maybe I didn't take the time to gel the windows, or turn off the spiky overhead green fluorescents - or SOMETHING took place where I'm not coming back with footage that looks extremely professional right on the desktop from the get-go. So I can fix that if I do my job properly. And the more I do so, the LESS important color correction in post will be to me.

The second situation is where I'm NOT in control of my source material and can't determine whether things will come in shot properly or not - or I just have to face the fact that for whatever reason, I can't create an acceptable project without significant color correction to meet the projects delivery standards.

If I MOSTLY work in situation A then the color correction tools in X will likely be 100% effective for me. I know enough to fix issues in the field. And I also know how to correct the common issues with the tools I have.

If I work MOSTLY in situation B - then the color correction tools in X might prove to be woefully inadequate. If I'm working in an environment where the reverse angles shot at 3pm MUST absolutely and perfectly match the tones of Master shot done at 10am - X's tools might get me there or not depending on how well the crew corrected things in the field. And I might need every ounce of a totally professional CC toolset to get things to my standard.


So look, I totally understand how others who face B situations every day would want boatloads of Primary, and Secondary corrections with lots of agile masks for each.

But again, more shooters are A - players than need to be B players. The truth is, the way I see it, if I shoot properly - then I'll seldom touch the controls that another editor might live inside every day.

THIS is the issue.

Not every editing suite can be everything to everyone. Tradeoffs are inevitable.

I haven't faced a situation yet where X's approach couldn't get me results I'm very happy with in making my videos acceptable to my clients.

But that's me and my clients - and it's certainly not universal.

So I'm an advocate of letting X grow up serving the needs of the largest group of it's users first.

Over time, I suspect that since it's built on technology that CAN handle color really, really well - sooner or later the controls and capabilities WILL improve - and I"m just happy they're already more than acceptable for me right now.

My 2 cents.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 4, 2012 at 7:40:37 am

[Bill Davis] "Once upon a time it wasn't a key part of the editing process at all. It was left to the field engineers to balance and shade the cameras to get them as "correct" as possible."
In terms of things like ENG or EFP I would agree but in film-land post processing is as old as the medium itself.

With regards to large software suits, I feel like devs are fighting a never ending battle to give customers what they want while also trying to save customers from themselves. If you don't add features then users won't keep buying the software and you also run the risk of being a one trick pony and having that trick copied by your competitors. The more features you add though the more complicated the software gets (both as a user and dev) which can weigh down the software so then, as a dev, you might try and get multiple programs to seamlessly talk/roundtrip with each other and that just opens up a whole new can of worms.

Personally, I'm not worried about the size of a program or a suite as long as it meets my needs (which includes being stable and w/in my budget).




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Walter Soyka
Re: I think the time of the large tower are coming to an end - and the bloated software suits with it :-)
on Dec 4, 2012 at 8:49:06 pm

[Carsten Orlt] "And I can see some development going towards to post pc area where you have many specific tools rather than one-fits-all. Of course they don't make a finished film, but they will make part of what you need to do. And because they're small in functionality they can be faster updated and maintained."

What's old is new again! The string-of-small-tools approach is the UNIX way: a broad set of very small, purpose-built, modular tools that be combined and recombined to suit the task at hand.

This is kind of the way I see suites working, but of course interoperability is critical.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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