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The interface is still annoying

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Oliver Peters
The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 1:15:41 pm

I've been banging on this beast since the beginning and in the last 1/2 year done most of my client-involved sessions with it. But the more I work with it, the more I find that the way things have to be manipulated in the timeline are increasingly annoying to me. Pure and simple, the software is designed for fast turnaround, news and simple (in editing style) broadcast work and starts to fall down when you get really complex with it.

I am in the middle of finishing up a Media Composer job started by another editor and I am struck at how much faster and easier it is to manipulate clips in the timeline in MC than it is in X. Simply because the interface is not trying to "help you".

I realize lots of folks here will vehemently disagree, but here are my central issues:

1. Connected clips do not hold their vertical position. I've tried Jim's fake track template and still run into situations where connected clips and secondary timelines pop around vertically.

2. Every UI action is accompanied with a graphic animation. It really slows things down with a complex project. I am constantly waiting on the software to catch up to what I'm doing.

3. Timeline functions are very contextual. To grab the edge of a dissolve takes very precise positioning to select between dragging the edge of the dissolve or trimming the clips. You sometimes have to readjust the clip appearance height simply to get the cursor to react correctly.

4. Mouse position is contextual, especially if you are skimming. The app frequently hangs on something and then you have to go through a few steps, like click on a few different clips to wake it up. This happens most when going between event clips and the project timeline.

5. The app chews up available RAM far too quickly and start to create anomalies, like corrupt renders. You frequently have to close and relaunch to flush the RAM out.

6. You cannot load a lot of projects into the timeline window. It seems to hold about 4 or 5 and then drops older ones. I frequently have to reload sequences from the Project Library, because they were loaded a minute ago and now they are gone. There's no way to load up a row of tabbed sequences like you could in FCP 7 or PPro. X only holds the last few loaded.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 2:31:15 pm

So, you are finally exiting the debate I take it?


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Oliver Peters
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 3:09:55 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So, you are finally exiting the debate I take it?"

LOL. Not in the least. FCP X makes a great "plug in". ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 3:38:40 pm

I've heard this before, plug in to what, exactly?


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Oliver Peters
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 4:04:12 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I've heard this before, plug in to what, exactly?"

An offhanded comment for sure. I mean in the sense that FCP X (and also Motion) is an application you might go to for some tasks. Also because of some of the flash-and-trash effects (no disrespect intended to the developers) available. Basically, you want it in your toolkit, but not the item you'd use for heavy lifting.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 4:16:37 pm

[Oliver Peters] "An offhanded comment for sure. I mean in the sense that FCP X (and also Motion) is an application you might go to for some tasks. Also because of some of the flash-and-trash effects (no disrespect intended to the developers) available. Basically, you want it in your toolkit, but not the item you'd use for heavy lifting.
"


Got ya. I guess that makes sense.

I think that there's been extensive work to the "backend", or whatever you want to call it, on fcpx.

When new reviews pop up about fcpx, people seem to herald the organizational capabilities and clown the timeline. To me, the front end is "easier" to fix, but the backend is harder to fix and get right.

So while the mechanics of editing in fcpx need the most work, the background database has a really solid start, at least in my user opinion, but its also the hardest to show exactly how much work has gone in to it.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 4:54:18 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So while the mechanics of editing in fcpx need the most work, "

I'm not trying to be snarky here Jeremy, but stop and consider that statement in the context of this being editing software.

As you say - like a lot of people I like a lot of what is in FCPX - but the timeline is beyond problematic, and the timeline is where I do my job.

i don't know if Apple could swallow that much intellectual humble pie, but they need to throw out that timeline.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Lawrence
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 7:16:51 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "As you say - like a lot of people I like a lot of what is in FCPX - but the timeline is beyond problematic, and the timeline is where I do my job."

Bingo.

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 7:40:12 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I'm not trying to be snarky here Jeremy, but stop and consider that statement in the context of this being editing software.

As you say - like a lot of people I like a lot of what is in FCPX - but the timeline is beyond problematic, and the timeline is where I do my job.

i don't know if Apple could swallow that much intellectual humble pie, but they need to throw out that timeline."


The thing is, I can say the same about some of Adobe's media management. Things can disappear of you aren't careful. It COULD be catastrophic. And this one I can prove repeatedly.

Today was the very first time I have heard that someone lost the first three seconds of their timeline by relaunching fcpx.

Adobe themselves have changed the editing interface a bunch from Pr CS 5.5 to 6 for the better. Their media management didn't change.

I like Adobe, I'd be nothing without them, and think they are doing great work, but I have to use that example as a case in point.

I find the media management and shared user environment of CS6 to be rather problematic.

While FCPX's timeline mechanics might be kind of weird and different from fcp7, I'm not going to have as much trouble getting a clip based timeline to something like Resolve as I do with Premiere. Archiving, restoring, and reconnecting in fcpx is much less hassle than cs6.

While the timeline is where I do most of work too, all those little details of the how, where, and why of the media directly effect my day to day job as well.

Different strokes for different folks, but I find 10.0.6's timeline improvements to be actual improvements. I find the shared user environment and media management (even its rather rudimentary state) to be pretty good, as in professionally good.

The timeline can, will, and has changed as fcpx grows up.

I do think they are still creating (and I hate this word) the fcpx paradigm. If anyone has lost patience, I get it. There are plenty of alternatives.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 9:02:13 pm

I'm in full agreement with the media management for PPro - however, given the scale of what is underway with asset management in adobe anywhere, that is likely to be a very moot point in 12-18 months, its plain adobe have a massive bullseye on media management.

In someways its the inverse of FCPX - the timeline is pretty damn excellent I find, and there is no junk on it. the only bloody animation is me moving clips.
but.. the media management and project architecture (one at a time) is effectively AE's, and that isn't appropriate for an NLE. But again - it is beyond obvious with what adobe is preparing with anywhere that this is about to change in a pretty dramatic fashion.

A last point - a lot of people, you know how you are, he said darkly - opined a number of times over the last 18 months that clip connections were a representation of the mystical underlying object model in FCPX. that they were an unbreakable outcome of the data substructure.

Apple, with one keystroke, are now negating clip connections. It is however, a temporary shift key operation.

A Caps lock version might be an idea.

Then I select hide connections, and then clip connections are gone if you want them to be. Something like this - buried in preferences away from casual eyes, would be an almost Avid type "remove the magic menu preference" move - Don't like clip connections? turn them off in advanced preferences.

while I'm burbling.... On the issue of tracks, (maybe I'm thick here but it hadn't occurred to me this way) but on the issue of tracks I had a minor revelation staring at the individual broken out tracks .6 - when we say tracks, and we ask for tracks, I think we're really talking about them in relation to audio, not video. that we get an understandable, visually coherent, controlled track interface to manage audio elements of the edit.

Because I don't really care about naming video tracks or actually explicitly having them - I'm just clumping video on top of each other same as I always was - less the stupidity of connected clips and modal editing states -

it not like V tracks have the master attributes they have in AE say - a video track doesn't have transfer mode options - the clips do - its always been that way?

I'm sure what I'm talking about falls apart pretty easily, but I'm intrigued at the idea that there could be a split, I don't think I care if explicit video tracks ever come back, I usually video mute objects, and rarely video tracks - but the idea that the bottom half, the audio half could invoke tracks would be interesting. Again that probably makes no sense though from a software standpoint.

As for giving up on FCPX - no. I paid for the thing, and I will continue to noodle with it. Some parts of it are very, very far ahead of any other NLE - titling, CC masking, multiclip (never used it in anger), rapidly interrogating large volumes of material - in those areas FCPX seems pretty seriously far ahead to me.

But they need to fundamentally reassess the timeline model - they also need to kill 90% of the animations, at least as an avid style preference option, because the visual information they are giving is redundant and in rapid editing sequences they fundamentally mess with my head for no good reason.

Its like having a chisel with fairy lights and a buzzer that sounds every time you make a hit.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 9:47:44 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I'm in full agreement with the media management for PPro - however, given the scale of what is underway with asset management in adobe anywhere, that is likely to be a very moot point in 12-18 months, its plain adobe have a massive bullseye on media management."

We like what we like. I could say the same about FCPX's timeline (different in 12-18 months). I just won't need a multi GPU'd and Adobe Approved SAN to run it.



[Aindreas Gallagher] "A last point - a lot of people, you know how you are, he said darkly - opined a number of times over the last 18 months that clip connections were a representation of the mystical underlying object model in FCPX. that they were an unbreakable outcome of the data substructure.

Apple, with one keystroke, are now negating clip connections. It is however, a temporary shift key operation.

A Caps lock version might be an idea. "


If you mean me, I didn't say that. As a matter of fact, I wanted this kind of functionality, and now it's here and works well. It allows things to stay put without desperately trying to append a bunch of screwy storylines as tracks.

A caps lock version you say? Here, have this bug: http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/344/14672

[Aindreas Gallagher] "But they need to fundamentally reassess the timeline model - they also need to kill 90% of the animations, at least as an avid style preference option, because the visual information they are giving is redundant and in rapid editing sequences they fundamentally mess with my head for no good reason."

I think it needs to be carried further. I know it's unpopular, but PIOPs completely f*cked up my flow. I'm kinda pissed about it actually, but Apple did a solid PR move. I expect PIOPs to remain unchanged forever, persisting as the people wanted. I guess I'll deal with it.

In the same vain, is hate to see tracks all of a sudden return becuase people bitched and complained about not having them, yet those people don't really use fcpx as an editing tool or can't bother to learn other ways of working.

The timeline index as a sort mechanism, and Roles to differentiate the clip groupings would be cool and keep building on the new conventions.

And some keyboard controls to navigate clip layers would be nice.

I agree the animations could completely go away, but don't get rid of the scrubable effects previews.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 10:46:18 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "but don't get rid of the scrubable effects previews."

beyond agreeing - the effects architecture is ludicrously fast and effective, people on avid clicking, as we speak, into insane, nested effects are on a stone age, light with flints, mars in my opinion. when is the last time anyone cared about boris effects for gods sake?

- again - a lot of stunningly good stuff is sitting in the undifferentiated FCPX trash heap.

also bud - I wasn't referring to you with the connection thing, I was just taking the broad p*ss in the round.

on this -

[Jeremy Garchow] " those people don't really use fcpx as an editing tool or can't bother to learn other ways of working. "

granted apple have a problem here, but inarguably their core problem is that they are not actually reacting to vibrant user comment, they are reacting to fundamental paid editor/facility market rejection - we both know that the action of editing currently shows little sign of operating within FCPX. If anything opinions have hardened, or in a sense worse, it has begun fading from view?

I actually recently offered (vaugely not right really, not Andy's machine) to install FCPX off my license in one of my primary client's edit suites - I just wanted to see it perform with some stuff - they exist massively with C300 and 5D stuff, some Alexa. I wanted a sneaky in anger run with it, I wanted to get annoyed and truly desperate using it, and these guys are nearly entirely online, its a sweet fit - no go. Sure - they'd never go for something that slapdash, but on the whole its either FCP7 with fingers in the ears, a little PPro, and not a lot - or FCP7 formally transitioning to Avid. Particularly in advertising.

Its real baby steps though - a senior editor at a major american advertising firm with a london shop pointed out that the issue is that, in London, it became quite an FCP town - quite a few high value commercial editors in London, and the shops that pitch them are, in many cases, FCP based.

As the smart egalitarian tool, FCP won large in London. Avid was half beaten into the ground.

Its different to LA in that way. Avid got rolled over a lot more. So the issue of what happens to the FCP skills base is sharper, given that FCP produced a generationally different editing approach, inasmuch as it was housed in FCP, not Avid.

Do you know anyone making a formal move to FCPX your end? Even in a limited seat capacity?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 2:45:21 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "granted apple have a problem here, but inarguably their core problem is that they are not actually reacting to vibrant user comment, they are reacting to fundamental paid editor/facility market rejection - we both know that the action of editing currently shows little sign of operating within FCPX. If anything opinions have hardened, or in a sense worse, it has begun fading from view?"

I don't really know if it's fading from view. I think that there are probably people evaluating all kinds of options now that FCS is dead (long live FCS).

Some will wait and revisit later, some might see some good in it and hang around, some might be completely pissed at Apple's seemingly cavalier decisions, some might know more than we do.

I don't hold as much contempt for the timeline as many do here. I think it's a good start, it needs some more capability, but it doesn't need to revert back to a wholesale track system. I've said all along, we just need a little more control of things, and Apple has started to deliver little by little...but that's just me and my thinking. I am one of those crazies that didn't need PIOPs in FCPX for chrissakes because I thought FCPX's employed methods were pretty good. It was the editor that needed to change. I was ready for a change.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I actually recently offered (vaugely not right really, not Andy's machine) to install FCPX off my license in one of my primary client's edit suites - I just wanted to see it perform with some stuff - they exist massively with C300 and 5D stuff, some Alexa. I wanted a sneaky in anger run with it, I wanted to get annoyed and truly desperate using it, and these guys are nearly entirely online, its a sweet fit - no go. Sure - they'd never go for something that slapdash, but on the whole its either FCP7 with fingers in the ears, a little PPro, and not a lot - or FCP7 formally transitioning to Avid. Particularly in advertising.

Its real baby steps though - a senior editor at a major american advertising firm with a london shop pointed out that the issue is that, in London, it became quite an FCP town - quite a few high value commercial editors in London, and the shops that pitch them are, in many cases, FCP based.

As the smart egalitarian tool, FCP won large in London. Avid was half beaten into the ground."


Yes. That sums up even my experience, even. I don't think there's a facility that would be of sound mind that would simply do a massive switch to FCPX. It's simply not ready, and that's OK. @RadicalMedia might be the exception, but my guess is that they run a little of everything. I know personally, we physically can't walk away from the previous decades worth of FCS archive. We will need to limp FCS along as long as there is a computer to run it.

X also takes a bit of time to learn. While I see it as a strength, it might prevent it from being picked up quickly in larger environments. People will buy it on their own, experiment, and if they like, they will ask for it (that Craig Slattery and the BBC story is a prime example of that). So while it might not be a no-go at first blush, it takes more than a cursory look, at least in my opinion. I'll swim with the squid, calamari is good.

As much as I like the direction of FCPX, I can't really employ it quite yet, although I will say, 10.0.6 is really close. Dangerously close, really.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Do you know anyone making a formal move to FCPX your end? Even in a limited seat capacity?"

The people I have seen and spoken with are simply too busy to do anything at the moment. What seems to be mostly true is that Ex-Avid folks are going back to Avid like an old slipper.

The FCP v3 and up folks are looking at Pr, some really like it, some say that it's just like FCP7, right up until it isn't and "discard" it in frustration. Nothing a little teething won't take care of, I'm sure.

Same with FCPX, everyone is still looking but not acting. I don't know anyone who has started using it full time. You are right in one sense about the "fading from view". There has been so much blood spilled over FCPX, that people aren't even looking at it comprehensively. It happened right here in this thread. The perception is so out of whack that it was said Apple is "playing games". In reality, they have delivered a truly high powered portable workflow in Thunderbolt, and made an announcement about a MacPro-y thing that will show up later next year.

THAT, my friend, is a PR problem as Apple is delivering on hardware, and even said something was coming and gave a target date, yet they are perceived as playing games. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

I think with the release of FCPXML v1.2, we will start to see some workflow additions pretty soon that might garner some attention, especially on a "facility" level, but that is just rampant speculation. The SAN control and custom metadata blob exporting is approaching off the charts good for an internal system to the NLE. It's not ultra sexy, though, I mean who cares about that level of workflow? Pros? Pfff...

Jeremy


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Oliver Peters
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 3:20:11 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't hold as much contempt for the timeline as many do here."

My complaints could easily be fixed. I generally object to the "rubberiness" of the whole interface. I think it would be quite easy to fix this. Because it hasn't been done (or there is no user option) I suspect Apple intends it to be that way. Period.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I think that there are probably people evaluating all kinds of options now that FCS is dead (long live FCS)."

FCS continues to save my bacon. There are very few FCP X jobs I do that don't touch FCS in some way. When you look at things like media relinking (in custom ways under user control), nothing beats FCP7 at this point in time. In an effort to make everything locked down, they sacrificed flexibility. FCP X is just as closed down as Media Composer and, although it's laudable, it also cripples many workflows.

My Apple friends tell me that I'm simply using workflows that try to accommodate others' lack up upgrading to modern software. That may well be the case, but it's the real world we all live in. Editing is largely a collaborative, team sport.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 4:53:45 pm

[Oliver Peters] "My complaints could easily be fixed. I generally object to the "rubberiness" of the whole interface. I think it would be quite easy to fix this. Because it hasn't been done (or there is no user option) I suspect Apple intends it to be that way. Period."

Yep, I hear that, although I find that ripple deletes seem much faster. Much less sliding, much more speed.

I also think that keyboard navigation control would help here so that I don't have to fight the layer interface. Select a clip and hit a key to bump it up or down non destructively. If I hit twice, it will move up two "layers", etc. Similar to how the overwrite to primary command works now, but with less overwriting. That command is quick.

I also think new Mac hardware is going to help here.

[Oliver Peters] "FCS continues to save my bacon. There are very few FCP X jobs I do that don't touch FCS in some way. When you look at things like media relinking (in custom ways under user control), nothing beats FCP7 at this point in time. In an effort to make everything locked down, they sacrificed flexibility. FCP X is just as closed down as Media Composer and, although it's laudable, it also cripples many workflows."

I think that with FCPXML v1.2, you will see plenty of third party workflow enhancers that will allow reconnects and interchange if that's what is needed.

[Oliver Peters] "My Apple friends tell me that I'm simply using workflows that try to accommodate others' lack up upgrading to modern software. That may well be the case, but it's the real world we all live in. Editing is largely a collaborative, team sport."

Yessir, it is. You are right that it doesn't account for the flexibility that FCP7 had, although that same flexibility could get you in trouble. It's a double edge sword.

I am confident that the further development of XML will help in these situations and allow reconnections to externally created proxy files, for instance.

Jeremy


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Bill Davis
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 6:27:28 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Select a clip and hit a key to bump it up or down non destructively. If I hit twice, it will move up two "layers", etc. Similar to how the overwrite to primary command works now, but with less overwriting. That command is quick."

But Jeremy, while that certainly satisfies the editor, doesn't it wreak havoc with compositing? Since X has a pretty rigidly hierarchical render process, won't wanton "bumping up" cause all sorts of issues for real-time playback?

Seems to me that if Apple were to make it more trivial to alter the rendering order of an entire timeline, even to help timeline operations work more fluidly - it would also be forcing a LOT of calculations into the metadata post processing queue - potentially slowing up everything else.

X is sorta "trackless" but it's also extremely hierarchical.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 6:44:59 pm

[Bill Davis] "But Jeremy, while that certainly satisfies the editor, doesn't it wreak havoc with compositing? Since X has a pretty rigidly hierarchical render process, won't wanton "bumping up" cause all sorts of issues for real-time playback?"

I don't see how. I can do this very thing in Ae (a compositor, not real time, I might add) and it is handy.

It is more exact, it is less loose.

[Bill Davis] "Seems to me that if Apple were to make it more trivial to alter the rendering order of an entire timeline, even to help timeline operations work more fluidly - it would also be forcing a LOT of calculations into the metadata post processing queue - potentially slowing up everything else."

It's one clip (or selected clips) not an entire timeline. It saves a lot of clicking and dragging, but it's the exact same result. Are you saying we shoudln't be able to click and drag a clip to the proper stacking order either? I guess I don't understand what you're saying.

If I have three clips stacked, and want a forth above the first clip, but below the second clip, I now have to add that clip as connected clip as the fourth in the stack, select it, shift drag the clip down in between the first and second clip and wait for FCPX to finish it's animating, and let go of everything correctly.

I want to be able to hit q, shift-down twice. Done.

[Bill Davis] "X is sorta "trackless" but it's also extremely hierarchical."

Right. That's what I want control of, the hierarchy. You only have two choices now when adding a clip from the Event Browser and that's to go in the primary (d or w) or as a top layered connected clip (q). Then I have to kind fo draaaaaagggg thiiiinnnnggggs around to where I want it.


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Bill Davis
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 7:36:40 pm

OK, I see where you're coming from.

My thinking is probably "infected" from the constant need to work with long monolithic stacks of clips. For example, I do a lot of client "window dubs" that consist of a group of clips over which is a long timecode generator.

In X, it's much better than the mess for so many years in 7 when moving any clip single would force the entire timeline into re-render , but if I change the layer position of the TC overlay - then X has to recalculate a lot of relationships as well.

Once again, it's task and workflow specific. If I'm working with lots of discrete stacks as you note, it's not a big deal. If I'm working with global elements like overlays - then stack re-ordering isn't quite so trivial at all.

Once again, the context to the type of project you do most is what makes something easy or complex.

And so it goes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 8:47:20 pm

[Bill Davis] "Once again, the context to the type of project you do most is what makes something easy or complex."

I guess.

A tc reader filter would help. I don't know what you're using, but you must be generating your own tc and never touching the sequence.

I still don't quite understand why there's no tc reader in FCPX, and why the custom ones are broken.

As far as stacking order it's important. If you don't want things ruined, don't ruin them.

Keyboard shortcuts would help here, as you don't have to use them.


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Chris Harlan
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 10:24:58 pm

[Bill Davis] "the mess for so many years in 7 when moving any clip single would force the entire timeline into re-render"

What? I have to be misunderstanding you. What you are saying above--or at least what I think you are saying above--is clearly not the case.



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James Ewart
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 15, 2012 at 5:46:12 pm

Rather than toggle on and off clip connections could we not just have a control click option "connect clip" because I can see that when you want it it's a great useful tool. But who wants it by default. Not me.


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Bill Davis
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 9:01:29 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "As you say - like a lot of people I like a lot of what is in FCPX - but the timeline is beyond problematic, and the timeline is where I do my job.

i don't know if Apple could swallow that much intellectual humble pie, but they need to throw out that timeline.
"


THEY need to swallow "humble pie?"

Please.

The unending need in some to come here and try to convince those of us who are having great success with X - that we're simply stupid to realize that we shouldn't REALLY be having that success.

It's like someone showing up for your big party then spending their entire time loudly complaining about the music - while continuing to STAY at the party.

Want different music? No problem. Go find a different party. But to hang out at this one, and contribute little more than to sit up every little while and bellow this song SUCKS too.

That's just lame.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 9:10:29 pm

[Bill Davis] "
Want different music? No problem. Go find a different party. But to hang out at this one, and contribute little more than to sit up every little while and bellow this song SUCKS too.
"


Bill, God knows it will never occur to you, but this isn't your party. People come here to shoot the spleen/breeze on this software, throw stones at it and defend it.

it appears not to get old.

What I think you may need Bill, is the Bill Davies forum, Hosted by Bill Davies, moderated by Bill Davies, wher Bill Davies debates the issues of the day with Bill Davies. There you can fully control the music.

And like I said above - I paid my money for this software, and I will throw stones at it, and apple, until my arm gives out. Also - who doesn't like a rant?
we both certainly appear to.

And we are none of us anonymous trolls, its proper public square stuff.

In the end, you're just another lowly poster Bill - you have no say beyond the keyboard, like everyone else. Its not fair is it?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 2:29:33 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "What I think you may need Bill, is the Bill Davies forum, Hosted by Bill Davies, moderated by Bill Davies, wher Bill Davies debates the issues of the day with Bill Davies. There you can fully control the music."

First, I don't know anybody named Bill Davies.

Second, remind me NEVER to have a shop you're associated with create the titles for any project I ever work on.

Have a nice day.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 1:19:46 pm

i think it's pretty obvious your name should be Bill Davies. It sounds notably better.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 10:20:49 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "It sounds notably better.
"


I'm not sure it sounds better, but its certainly a kinkier name.


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Richard Herd
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 10:36:32 pm

FREEBIRD!


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Mark Dobson
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 2:49:33 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Pure and simple, the software is designed for fast turnaround, news and simple (in editing style) broadcast work and starts to fall down when you get really complex with it."

Well you are right about FCPX failing the more complex the edit is.

I have to really question why I still use it for professional work because, like you, I spend a lot of time waiting for it to catch up with itself and I'm sorry to say that 10.0.6 has not improved the core functionality, by that I mean reliability, of the software.

I know that every user encounters their own set of problems, or I hope for some lack of problems, dependent on the Mac set up they are using. But for me, the spinning ball, force quit, trash preferences and relaunch is very much part of my work pattern.

It always starts off well and the Event Library side of things is pretty smart. But I have learnt to create my work in short sections and then bring it together towards the end because as soon as one gets a couple of minutes into an edit everything gets very awkward and slow. ( and I've got 22Gbs ram)

I think that 10.0.6 is 2 steps forward and one step back. To have to relearn core editing activities after almost a year and a half is really annoying.

I really don't see the advantage of the new import and export windows, If it ain't broke why fix it, and where has the share monitor gone? The only way to see if an export has finished is to watch my CPU activity monitor.

And for me whilst having an Event Viewer can be useful for certain jobs I keep on trying to use the skimmer within it?

For me the most useful addition is the copy clip attributes feature.

What I'm waiting for is the new MacPro. I've got the idea that that will resolve all my day to day problems with FCPX although through reading some of the posts on this forum even those with the latest MBPro machines have issues.

But when the software is working well well I think it's superb although I would agree with you that It's probably been designed for quick turnaround news type jobs.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 3:35:22 pm

[Mark Dobson] "I really don't see the advantage of the new import and export windows, If it ain't broke why fix it, and where has the share monitor gone? The only way to see if an export has finished is to watch my CPU activity monitor."

I guess I just see things differently.

If you import from a large variety of cameras that aren't mov based, the new import window is very welcome. This way you don't have to decide or remember if I need to import from an "archive" or just a straight import, or what. The unified interface is good.

The new export options I also find welcome. The bundle options are great as are the custom additions along with range exporting and being able to export right from a Project instead of having to backup to the Library. It's much easier, faster, more professional, and logical. The export progress is now unified in the background render HUD (just click the percentage dial next to the tc window in the middle of the interface).

As far as performance, there's no question at least in my optimistic mind, that Apple is building an application that will need a really fast and powerful machine to run it to its potential. When you start experimenting with the background export feature and see the capabilities and possibilities, fcpx will need as many fast processors you can pack in to a suitcase to keep it running smoothly.

All that being said, the compound clip performance is much improved, the multichannel audio options are much better than previous versions, third party MXF support is working well, Red support is great, the Event viewer helps out a lot but gets out of the way when you don't need it, there are more assignable kb shortcuts and there could be yet a few more, the flexible clip connections work well and are a welcome addition, people love the multiple persistent ranges (I don't like them), and I find the interface animations are being paired down (although they are still some hanging around). My guess is new hardware will help here. Apple has given a target time of 2013 for a MacPro-ish type of machine, that gives them a while to polish up FCPX as my guess is that FCPX will be the Apple supplied "killer app" for whatever that new machine turns out to be.

X still needs work, but Apple seems to be working hard on it. There's a lot of fit and finish left to complete, but the biggest outstanding interface design left that I'd like to see is more "visual organization" tools; that is, different ways to display clips in Projects and timelines in a visually organized manner, akin to what tracks provide, but keeping the fcpx flexibility and speed. A combination of Roles and the index would be really cool.

Also, I find the really unsexy things like media management and control as well as user and camera assignable metadata to be a step above some other well established NLEs, but that's my opinion and fits my "way of thinking" I guess. FCPXML also got a lot of work, it appears, which is also a background type of feature and not necessarily something every user would see or even use, but its a professional feature.

I do find that older/updated Evers and projects have more lag. When starting new, thing seem to run better. It is still a moving target of reliability, but it's a young application.

I wrote this on my phone, sorry for errors.

Jeremy


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Paul Neumann
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 4:09:01 pm

So yesterday I committed to doing a job start to finish in X. I did go to After Effects for titles but other than that I stayed in FCPX the whole time. Things went alright though the Color Board is hit and miss for me. Sometimes it does just what I need and other times it just can't deliver.

Well, I finished the spot and output a 720p approval clip and sent it off. Then I noticed a color correction that I missed (and would surely be pointed out) and re-opened the application and the project I had exported and closed just 5 minutes earlier. Lo and behold the first :03 of the spot/project/timeline were MISSING. Yep. Just cut off. Total length of the piece was now :03 shorter and the front of it was just gone.

And that's why I can't take this mess seriously. I don't have time for junk like that.

So I used the edit as a rough cut and re-did the whole thing in PPro and all is good.


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Gary Huff
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 4:36:47 pm

[Paul Neumann] "And that's why I can't take this mess seriously. I don't have time for junk like that."

You must have opened it wrong... :-p


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Kent Beeson
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 5:00:24 pm

Yep, as I said in 2011 when X came out, it'll be at least 2014 before it should even be allowed to have the word PRO in it (and its subsequent updates have shown 2014 or later is the correct date, sadly)...I actually want to purchase and use FCP X, want to stay with Apple for hard/software, but honestly their playing games (intentionally or otherwise) with Pros, not good.

seriously, Apple needs to understand what pro environment editing software needs to be, not just quick, quick news or "youtube clips" editing, then release it at once, quit dragging out necessary and obvious features piece-meal...

apart from multi clip editing in FCP X, does seem like FCP 7 or Prem Pro are the best options out there for pro-environment editing, better than AVID I'd say, due to their various plugins and ease of use with other Adobe Apps

Though not sure how Lightworks and Smoke will come to play in all this.

IMHO


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 5:33:56 pm

[Kent Beeson] "Yep, as I said in 2011 when X came out, it'll be at least 2014 before it should even be allowed to have the word PRO in it (and its subsequent updates have shown 2014 or later is the correct date, sadly)...I actually want to purchase and use FCP X, want to stay with Apple for hard/software, but honestly their playing games (intentionally or otherwise) with Pros, not good."

Have you purchased new Apple hardware recently or downloaded and used fcpx on a real project yet?

What has been your experience with either of those?

I agree there's no new MacPro, but the other Mac offerings are not a game.

Cow contributor Shane Ross blogged about finishing his first show on a 2012 15" non retina MBP.

Walter Biscardi has blogged a few times now about how iMacs are going to get it done for most of editorial and he actually finds the thunderbolt flexibility advantageous.

Are they playing games? Not professionals? Don't know what they are talking about? IMHO?


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Kent Beeson
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 5:50:48 pm

I was told by more than one person on a forum or two (can't remember how many) as well as 1 sales person at APPLE store in my area, that my 2008 MAC PRO 3.0, 12GB RAM, 5870 GFX card is better/faster than any iMac around today (this was in Sept or Oct 2012) as I was actually thinking of getting iMac latest instead of waiting for who knows if/when another mac pro is coming out (really hard to plan for spending when Apple famously won't let you know what's around the corner or when, doesn't matter why, it just won't happen.)

As to using FCP X, no I haven't bought it, but I've never swam in a barrel of live squid either, but I know I wouldn't want to do it, based on what I have observed and have heard about the experience of FCP X (tutorials, reviews, discussions for 18 months).

I do have FCP 7 and Adobe PP CS6, and used AVID (for 9 years) many years ago...I do wonder what SMOKE is like...might try it next year.

Thanks

K
http://www.effective-video.com


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Bret Williams
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 12:52:54 am

A 2008 MacPro is not faster than a current 3.4 ghz iMac. FCP X also ties into sandy/ivy bridge which is unavailable in a MacPro. As well, an interface such as Thunderbolt, does not come equipped on a Mac Pro. You could add a $250-$400 eSata raid card and get half the speed of thunderbolt though. And done forget to drop $300 on a better graphics card because I'm pretty sure even the radeon 6970m is going to be faster than what Mac pros are / were offering. IMac happen to come with a $1000 display built in too.

I can't really see why anyone would purchase a MacPro. Apple can't either, so they don't advertise them or sell them in their stores.

For speed tests google geek bench scores and you can see where every Mac lands in overall speeds. It doesn't take into acct FCP and sandy/ivy bridge though.

Beyond all that, it can be argued that Premiere is Professional, or Avid, but it just can't be said about FCP 7. I can see comparing X to CS6 or Avid, but 7 is just not a contender anymore. It was barely squeaking by in 2009, but having to convert material to the same codec and frame rate just doesn't fly anymore. Not being able to use 4000x4000 or bigger stills is ridiculous. The titler, in its own little window has been bad for 12 years. We put up with it for 12 years because it was on feature mostly with Avid and far cheaper and could run on cheaper machines. So when Avid started dropping prices and opening up hardware, and Premiere got its act together, it's future was iffy. Apple elected a controversial direction instead of instead of just adding more bloat and making it 64bit. So be it. But it's hard to argue that 7 is professional and X isn't.


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Andy Neil
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 5:07:01 pm

[Paul Neumann] "And that's why I can't take this mess seriously. I don't have time for junk like that."

I've always hated arguments like this. Raise your hand if you've ever lost work in Avid, Premiere, FCP7, Vegas...etc.

But somehow, when it happens in FCPX, it's a reason to forego the entire software and brush it off as unprofessional.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Paul Neumann
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 5:18:42 pm

Andy,

How many times would you suggest I get burned before I learn the stove is hot? I had one FCPX project change from NTSC 1080p to PAL 720p for gawd sakes.

And I paid my money. And I keep giving it a try. And it keeps letting me down.

You buy a ticket, you're allowed to boo.


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Andy Neil
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 5:32:39 pm

It's one thing to get pissed that you lost work. To get angry with bugs. It's pretty immature software after all. But unless you've also said that Media Composer can't be "taken seriously" because of that time your bins became corrupt and Unity crashed, then I'm still gonna say that you're over-reacting. Hell, I've had Premiere crash on me more than X and I've used it far less often.

The kind of crash you're describing is an extremely rare occurrence. I've never even heard of someone losing work without the app crashing. And I've also never heard of it changing a project from NTSC to PAL either. It sounds to me as if you may have a bad install that is unstable and producing all kinds of problems. This isn't something that's happening to everyone and would therefore justify a statement that it's not to be taken seriously as an editor.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 5:51:54 pm

[Paul Neumann] "You buy a ticket, you're allowed to boo."

Yep,

But if you buy your ticket, and because you've got a headache (or your significant other is pissed off at you so you're just cranky) - so you badmouth a movie simply because you were in a crappy mode that had little to do with the actual movie - and if that movie is getting increasingly positive reviews - and more and more people are coming up with well-reasoned discussions of some of the artistic merits of the movie - if you KEEP just yelling about how crappy it was, sooner or later everyone figures out that what you're saying isn't actually about the movie - it's kinda about you.

So feel free to boo. That's your right. Just as it's our right to try to figure out if the basis for your arguments are valid, or just crankiness.

That's how it works.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Marcus Moore
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 5:20:56 pm

I'm not doubting what happened to you. But I find it hard to reconcile stories like this. I've been using FCPX every day since February on non-inconsequential work, and I've never had data suddenly disappear.

In fact, my experience overall has been that on the rare occasions that I do get a crash, everything I've done up to the moment of the crash has been retained. Other than restarting not a moment of lost work.

I think it's important to point this out because if it was entirely indicative of the program itself, then EVERYONE using it would be complaining of stuff like this. And TRUST me, I would be complaining... This has been my busiest year ever, and I credit FCPX with me being able to push more work thru the pipeline than ever before.

So I'm not trying to belittle or belie what happened in your specific case, but I think you need to look at the only two other options: hardware/software configuration, or user error.



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Paul Neumann
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 5:30:55 pm

I hear ya. It's like when I hear people saying that CS6 is better suited for a PC. I've run all versions on PC and hands down like it better than anything on a mac. I don't have a problem with it on a mac like some people (claim they) do.

Nobody more surprised than me have my project settings switched or shortened. Seriously. It's not like I open it up every once in a while just to complain about it. I love the keyer, the magnetic timeline, the keywords, all of it. It's screwed me a couple of times and I'm damn leery of it. Luckily no client in the room yesterday.

I've had drives fail which led to corrupt projects but never had anything like export/close/open/argh! like happened yesterday. Wish I could say it's because I didn't save it right but Apple won't even let me do that on my own.


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Marcus Moore
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 5:51:46 pm

I haven't invested in it myself, but anyone who wants a second level of redundancy on backups should really invest in ProVersioner.



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Bill Davis
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 5:44:56 pm

[Paul Neumann] "And that's why I can't take this mess seriously. I don't have time for junk like that. "

I guess you'll just have to join the massive and endless line of people who are re-opening their existing projects and finding that those projects are magically "cut off" because of this flaw in X..... oh wait... I'm having trouble understanding the nature of this terrible software flaw problem ... so... 'll just Google "FCP-X missing content on re-open" and figure out what the thousands of others with this problem have done.... oh ... wait... there are a couple of posts about missing EVENTS - but it appears that nobody else is having this problem.... Huh, not sure what to say now.

Perhaps what you're proclaiming to the universe as "junk" is just your junk? Related to your specific circumstance. Something in your system, or in your workflow, or in your work habits - but not so much a reflection of universal truth?

Look, I know it's frustrating when you're trying to edit and something goes wrong. But in a world where everyone is constantly discussing everything on the interwebs and nearly ALL of it is indexed and searchable - it's totally cool to post your experience. BUT it's even cooler to take a moment, take a deep breath, and try to figure out if what's pissed you off is actually about the software or if it's just about your unique circumstance.

Just sayin'

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Paul Neumann
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 6:05:04 pm

Bill's right. I'm such a dick.


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Chris Harlan
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 8:51:53 pm

[Paul Neumann] "Bill's right. I'm such a dick.
"


Well, you know its true. Getting between Bill and his precious is a dangerous sport.


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Bill Davis
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 9:03:36 pm

[Paul Neumann] "Bill's right. I'm such a dick."

Well, my term would likely have been "impatient" - but I certainly don't know you as well as you do.

(couldn't resist)

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Bret Williams
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 5:54:35 pm

[Mark Dobson] "I really don't see the advantage of the new import and export windows, If it ain't broke why fix it, and where has the share monitor gone? The only way to see if an export has finished is to watch my CPU activity monitor.

And for me whilst having an Event Viewer can be useful for certain jobs I keep on trying to use the skimmer within it?

For me the most useful addition is the copy clip attributes feature.

What I'm waiting for is the new MacPro. I've got the idea that that will resolve all my day to day problems with FCPX although through reading some of the posts on this forum even those with the latest MBPro machines have issues."


The share monitor isn't gone. I never saw it before I installed compressor unless I had clicked on the sharing section in the background tasks window. Not much need to look at CPU. What a bizzare comment. There's a big circle right in the middle of the app that tells you if processes are ongoing. Click it for details. You'll see your sharing right there.

So turn off the event viewer and be happy. I sorta think it's pretty dang useful, but if you don't do multicam or color correct your shots, or do any matching action, then maybe not. Yes, the skimmer should work. It was a interim step I guess.

A current/new iMac would probably resolve your problems. I have an iMac that's over a year old (although the latest best version that exists) and I don't have, well, any of the performance issues that get listed here. I think they're mostly Mac Pro users. Flat out, I don't think FCP X works that well on a Mac Pro because it it highly based on utilizing the sandy and ivy bridge hardware. The graphics card is only part of the equation. Yes some MBPros have the issues, but I'm guessing, just from the fact they're MacBook Pros, they might be lacking in RAM. 16 is the new minimum. Although I rarely see it using more than about 5 or 6 of my 16. 16 gigs of RAM for an iMac is $80.

I would think the best new features would be pips, blading through all tracks or a subset, and overriding clip connections. That pretty much puts the editing toolset much much closer to that of 7.

I learned how to use it and have very few issues anymore. Total feature set aside, the actual power of the software is far greater than legacy which seems like a toy to me now. I mean, FCP 7 really isn't very viable anymore unless all your footage is the same codec, same frame rate. It's kind of an inverse situation. The guts of X are incredibly solid, but the interface and feature set is evolving. With legacy, you have a foundation that has been obsolete since 2007. Maybe even from it's inception. There are so many basic issues with FCP legacy they never did fix and bugged me for the better part of 12 years. But the feature set grew to be fairly large, capable and compatible. But the guts, they're just not up to par anymore.

I stand by my list of why FCP is professional -

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/42665


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alban egger
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 12:11:55 pm

[Mark Dobson] "I have to really question why I still use it for professional work"

Because it helps you do it and because you pĆ¼robably deep down are very much aware that no other NLE will be perfect for every project?

[Mark Dobson] " But for me, the spinning ball, force quit, trash preferences and relaunch is very much part of my work pattern."

I have no issues at all. No beachballs, no crahse4s for weeks, no trashing of prefs needed. I use it on a 2009 MacPro and a 2011 Macbook both with 16GB RAM. FCPX is much more stable than FCP7 ever was since 10.0.2.



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Chris Harlan
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 8:48:20 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I am in the middle of finishing up a Media Composer job started by another editor and I am struck at how much faster and easier it is to manipulate clips in the timeline in MC than it is in X. Simply because the interface is not trying to "help you"."

Yeah, I've really come to enjoy my editing in Media Composer, and Premiere, for that matter. It was a funny curve for me to get back aboard MC--I'd gotten so used to FCS's timeline logic--but trimming, movement, and general manipulation are now becoming second nature. I'm sure that if I made the same sort of effort for X I'd see rewards there, too, but I just can't get inspired to do so. I can see the advantage of the time I put into MC (Premiere didn't really take any rethinking because it is so close to FCS) but I can't see anything beyond curiosity taking me that deep into X.

The one thing I really do miss in Avid is to have multiple time lines open. Being able to have a variety of source windows open is close, but not quite the same. Premiere does this quite well.


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Benjamin Mullins
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 10:25:41 pm

I'm not doubting what happened to you. But I find it hard to reconcile stories like this. I've been using FCPX every day since February on non-inconsequential work, and I've never had data suddenly disappear.

I finished a project in X (10.0.1), then returned to it a couple of weeks later and every single clip was offline. Since this was the first version of the software I couldn't reconnect anything so I lost the entire project. I hadn't made any changes to my folder/file structure or moved anything around in my Finder, it just refused to see the clips. Granted this was on the 0.1 release, but just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Luckily it was a personal project and not critical in any way but still, rather annoying.

On another note, one of the things that X is usually credited for is speeding up people's workflows, however I find it takes longer to log clips in X than in other NLE's. Maybe I'm not approaching this correctly but once imported I'll rename the clips, then have to assign that same name as a keyword so that I can organize the clips into folders in the Event Browser. It seems like adding more work rather than speeding it up.

Not that I dislike X but I agree with Oliver, I enjoy CS6 and MC a lot more.

Ben.



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Jim Giberti
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 3, 2012 at 10:19:51 pm

Regarding your points Oliver, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and finally, yes.


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Rich Rubasch
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 1:13:36 am

According to Apple, there is a little "Pro" in all of us. So the fact that it says "Pro" just means it's for everyone.

Except me.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Don Walker
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 4:17:07 am

Jim,
In agreeing with Oliver are you giving up on X?
I find your situation the most similar to mind and I am falling for the software more and more, even after almost swearing it off after losing a day's worth of work.
I started a big industrial video on PP6 in anticipation of really getting into the PP/AE workflow but found myself longing for the ease of X, and eventually moved the project to X. I also found the improvements in .6 to be incredible.
I have two big things on my wish list: My personal move away from my 2008 MacPro, and some semblance of a send to Motion feature.

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


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Jim Giberti
Re: The interface is still annoying
on Nov 4, 2012 at 7:33:24 pm

[Don Walker] "In agreeing with Oliver are you giving up on X?
"


Absolutely not Don.
But the points he made I agree with and would really like to see addressed.
We're talking about primarily performance issues and (like in the Motion round-tripping) still some logical, basic functionality.


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