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Apple / RED comparison

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

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D.J. Goller
Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 5:05:26 am

I will preface the following remarks with this: I am as disappointed by FCPX as anyone and I wasted my 300 bucks too. However, I am surprised by a lot of the visceral anger going around here about Apple releasing a product that doesn't work for professionals. Everyone is up in arms over what its lacking. But those complaining loudest seem to be many of the same people who were cheering on RED as the messiahs, even after all they did was make announcement after announcement without releasing any product at all. Then when RED ONE did release it was absolutely worthless with just about every workflow that existed at the time and was extremely buggy. Heck, RED still doesn't have "RELEASED" software. they just keep crapping out "Public Beta's" so they don't have to provide real support. Apple is at least still asking openly for your opinion (its in the menu "Provide Final Cut Pro Feedback...). Apple has taken a page straight from the RED playbook. Try to innovate with a great idea and completely under-deliver at first, hoping that they can improve on it before losing peoples interest! But in time I have a good feeling that they are going to shift the paradigm in the industry the same way RED , and DLSR's seem to have done to film.

D.J.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 5:17:27 am

Thank you for that reasoning. Yes FCPX is not just a new NLE but a new concept in post production. It's in it's infancy but the foundation is actually truly jaw dropping in a good way. The baby will grow up and it will be very impressive.



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Tangier Clarke
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 5:41:31 am

I second that. Yes I am disappointed about some missing features, but I am loving what I am seeing and already have noticed how much faster I work and complete editing. FCPX is far less in my way the FCP 7. I am not too worried. I am excited about this foundation moving forward.

People view FCP X as an island, but it works with other technologies that need to mature a bit. Remember the ill of Quicktime X? I do think people will learn to love FCP X and Apple will surely make up more than the folks they lose to other NLEs.

The biggest issue I have really is people complaining as if we all have the same understanding of what it means to be "Pro" which is very subjective both technically and creatively. Non-"pro" folks have created amazing storytelling on non-"pro" hardware and software. It's easy to say what is and isn't "pro looking back, but no so easy looking forward; especially when companies like Red, Apple, etc. try to change, redefine, or broaden the "pro" space.

Apple definitely could have handled this better, but I like what I see so far. I'll keep my FCP 7 and keep playing with FCP X - keeping my complaints (for the most part) to myself.

Tangier


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george manzanilla
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 5:46:08 am

Just look at the majority. People are not happy. If this were a couple comments about a missing feature here and there... ok you got a point. The problem is, we're being forced to work a certain way and a lot of the customization we were able to do in FCP1-7 is no longer available and there is uncertainty if it ever will be.

I love the new features, but did they really have to fundamentally change the way a timeline works? There's nothing wrong with using tracks, why get rid of that?

----
george manzanilla
rundfunk media
http://www.rundfunk.com
vimeo.com/rundfunk


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Jamie Franklin
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 5:51:02 am

[Tangier Clarke] "The biggest issue I have really is people complaining as if we all have the same understanding of what it means to be "Pro" which is very subjective both technically and creatively. Non-"pro" folks have created amazing storytelling on non-"pro" hardware and software. It's easy to say what is and isn't "pro looking back, but no so easy looking forward; especially when companies like Red, Apple, etc. try to change, redefine, or broaden the "pro" space."

you think the pro/non-pro debate here is a philosophical one?


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Tangier Clarke
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 6:03:05 am

I don't think it's necessarily a philosophical one and I didn't think about it that way that deeply. Rather in reading all of the negative responses (many of which I agree) I started wondering where the united "pro" line is. Where's the white paper? I considered people who can achieve similar results with no budget, less software/hardware, but the will to make their stories happen somehow. It happens.

My intent was not to define anything. Perhaps a musing not meant for this thread. I thought about the many iterations of storytelling methods and applications I've used from film to tape-to-tape to Avid videoshop to Media Composer, FCP, etc. and started wondering amidst all of the comments what makes these "pro". Who's making that definition.

No intent to offend.

Tangier


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Jamie Franklin
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 6:20:16 am

Fair enough. Trouble is, sure it can do more things than imovie, but it sure can't do *a lot* of things Final Cut 7 could, and we're now in territory where our choices aren't as fruitful and Apple has dismissed 54% of their market share. Poof.

No "pro", by any standard, in their right mind, would use this program in a post facility other than for curiosity, transcoding and "hope"...

Or someone in their family might want a wedding video done, and here we have the new "pro" user Apple is targetting. Nothing wrong with that what-so-ever...but, well...yeah /sigh


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 12:58:30 pm

I think the definition of a "pro" is pretty simple. You make your living editing on ANYTHING, and you are a pro. The only thing that really matters is results. Any tool used by a pro is obviously pro, right? Doesn't mean it's the best tool, but it's still being used professionally whatever it is.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Jamie Franklin
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 5:37:15 am

Good grief.

Not comparable at all. And one could write a novel why...

[D.J. Goller] "Try to innovate with a great idea and completely under-deliver at first"

How can anyone say this with a straight face...truely grasping at straws...

People's gripes here are completely legitimate and not one inch should be given to Apple for clearly ignoring 54% of the market that used their platform as a pro app and were promised to get one while pulling the rug out from those waiting to transition.

I have a lot of issues with the first generation Red...but this is nothing, not even in the same ballpark as what Apple has done...


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Jim Giberti
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 5:56:16 am

I think it's a reasonable comparison and this little thread seems split 50/50.
It has issues that I absolutely believe will be addressed in pretty quick fashion.
Not Pollyanna, just a reasonable assumption for a number of reasons that have been discussed by a lot of intelligent and experienced pros.
It's a bit of a disappointment on some levels but a great innovation on others.
It's not a reason for the level of outrage that some folks are taking it.
I'll bet anyone real money that this will all be resolved this year.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 6:49:44 pm

OH NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

A voice of reason!

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Jamie Franklin
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 9:54:59 pm

[Jim Giberti] "It's a bit of a disappointment on some levels but a great innovation on others.
It's not a reason for the level of outrage that some folks are taking it."


Actually, with what has occurred the last 2 days, the level of outrage seems to be parallel to Apple's actions. And kudo's to all those speaking up...


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Jim Giberti
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 10:22:21 pm

I'm all for speaking up.
Freaking out is another thing and shooting from the hip is usually inaccurate.
The shortcomings are apparent and need to be addressed.
Some of the comments have gone beyond opinions though and a number of things that I've read "couldn't be done" are proven false with a little time in the program.
Not helpful on a forum used by many for straight information is my thinking.

As a 10 year FCP user I'm totally perplexed by Apple's obvious omissions but I've "been there", I've got both 7 and X running on my systems and I'm willing to see how this develops.
I think it will be fine.


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Jamie Franklin
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:21:41 pm

[Jim Giberti] "Some of the comments have gone beyond opinions though and a number of things that I've read "couldn't be done" "

I don't think that is enough to excuse the elimination of a timeline which doesn't bode well for OMF/XML/EDL i/o

Eliminating a lot of customizable features and say, this is how it is...accept it. Sorry, that's not how editors work anymore...that is a complete step backwards.

Pulling FCS3 without warning...pulling the updater without warning, my god...

NONE of these are small and ALL of them get a pass because this is a 1.0 nor because a few people haven't gotten deeper into the program and may be wrong on a couple of things so should be classified as unhinged, over-reacting or scared because of the "new"....


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Jim Giberti
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:41:34 pm

Hey Jamie, you're last sentence is kind of what I mean I guess.
I was careful not to characterize anyone in that way in my opinion.

I think it comes down to two things.

If you've been there before, and I certainly have owning several multimedia studios and a creative firm, then you might look at this with a little more perspective (whether that's good or bad).
I do think the major omissions will be addressed in short order as they usually are with 1st releases.

I think after that you're either going to like the new convention as one of your creative tools or your not.
I think we will and I plan on doing several new spots and a couple of short films in X and Motion 5 this summer and I'm not stupid.

And I feel the pain of big editing houses if this means they ultimately do have to move on from Apple

peace.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 6:04:49 am

The difference is simple.

RED had no customers prior to RED ONE. Apple is the NLE market leader, with two million of users.

RED introduced a brand new product where none existed before. Apple replaced an existing product with a newer, arguably less functional one.

No one had any vested interest in RED before RED ONE. Everyone on this forum is touched by the EOL of FCP7, the release of FCPX, or both.

I don't say this to take away from the substantial innovations in FCPX. I truly respect what Apple has done there. They are badly mishandling the transition, and burning a lot of trust and goodwill in the post industry in the process.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Tangier Clarke
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 6:18:11 am

"I don't say this to take away from the substantial innovations in FCPX. I truly respect what Apple has done there. They are badly mishandling the transition, and burning a lot of trust and goodwill in the post industry in the process."


Well said. Probably the simplest and best way I've read to describe this FCP X release.

Tangier


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Brian Mulligan
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 11:50:27 am

[Walter Soyka] "The difference is simple.

RED had no customers prior to RED ONE. Apple is the NLE market leader, with two million of users.

RED introduced a brand new product where none existed before. Apple replaced an existing product with a newer, arguably less functional one.

No one had any vested interest in RED before RED ONE. Everyone on this forum is touched by the EOL of FCP7, the release of FCPX, or both."


DING! DING! DING! - we have a winner!
If you are going to innovate then you have to do better than FCPX. To say that FCPX is really innovation is a bit of a stretch.
They improved a lot of timeline issues that hinder editors, that's good. But really it is still a track or layer based workflow where you butt clips up one after another for linear storytelling and can layer clips vertically for composting. Nothing new here.
Anyone who says any differently, has obviously never used a NLE other than FCP. CMX editing to NLE.... that was innovation.



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Matt Callac
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 2:49:31 pm

[Brian Mulligan] "If you are going to innovate then you have to do better than FCPX. To say that FCPX is really innovation is a bit of a stretch.
They improved a lot of timeline issues that hinder editors, that's good. But really it is still a track or layer based workflow where you butt clips up one after another for linear storytelling and can layer clips vertically for composting. Nothing new here.
Anyone who says any differently, has obviously never used a NLE other than FCP. CMX editing to NLE.... that was innovation."


Lets say for a minute that you're right about the actual timeline and it's pretty much no different from anything else. The timeline and GUI are just how you get around in software. Those things simply speed you up or slow you down. Whether or not you can classify changes like that as "revolutionary" or "innovative" is a moot point. Where FCPX has taken giant leaps foreward is that it's got metadata as it's foundation. If you'd poked around in the software for long enough you'd realize this.

Even if FCPX dies a horrible death b/c every FCP editor leaves for adobe or avid the the progress they made with the architecture of the app WILL change the industry.

-mattyc


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Brian Mulligan
Re: Apple / RED comparison
on Jun 23, 2011 at 4:11:33 pm

Metadata is nothing new to NLE editing. Apple has pushed it further by allowing you to metadata everything. But others have and are uisng metadata. But unless you are working with 1000 hours of video, and have had time to metadata it all, it's not essential to the art of editing.



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