FORUMS: list search recent posts

10.06 On Apple's Website Now

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Rob McGreevy
10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:22:39 pm

Subject says it all... many old favorites are back like copy/paste attributes, freeze frame and get this a drop shadow! :-)


Return to posts index

Marco Feil
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:27:06 pm

Was just about to post this..
Not yet in the AppStore, but the new Features are already listed here:
http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/whats-new/
and here: http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/all-features/


Return to posts index

Sohrab Sandhu
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:29:21 pm

Dual viewer is back aye!

Sohrab



FCS 3 & Adobe PPro
AJA Kona Lhi, Mac Pro 2 X 2.66 Ghz Quad Core
Flanders Scientific LM-1760W




"The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth-century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six months, or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen." -- Carl Ally


Return to posts index


Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:29:54 pm

Lots of improvements but no Mixer :(

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:14:19 pm

[Steve Connor] "Lots of improvements but no Mixer :(
"


Or color-coded roles. Bummer. I had high hopes. Maybe next time.


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:17:05 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Or color-coded roles. Bummer. I had high hopes. Maybe next time."

I was hoping for that too, but there are a lot of other much needed changes so as you say hopefully next time.

Apple have clearly been listening, let's hope it continues

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index


Chris Harlan
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:25:39 pm

[Steve Connor] "Apple have clearly been listening, let's hope it continues
"


Agreed. This is a sizable update. A mixer and clearly visible cue positions are a big part of what I need to get on board. That and timecode/sync markers. Maybe Logic X will address some of the audio handling. Who knows?


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 1:22:38 am

[Chris Harlan] "Or color-coded roles. Bummer. I had high hopes. Maybe next time."

There's still some fit and finish left to be done, no question.

But overall this update is very very good in the limited time I have had to mess with it.

The multichannel audio tools are much improved. They could use some more functionality in the detaching but they truly are better.

Performance seems much improved.

I have a pretty underpowered laptop that I have been using for testing, and it seems to run much more better, if much more better is accepted vernacular.


Return to posts index

Mitch Ives
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:34:37 pm

The Dual Viewer looks like a nice implementation.

At the risk of being superficial, the built-in freeze frame and drop shadow are much appreciated. Have been swearing all week over the absence of a built-in drop shadow. This will save a lot of time...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:43:36 pm

So many updates!


Return to posts index

Craig Seeman
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:42:42 pm

Very weird but I just got 2 updates in the App Store for FCPX and Motion but show as 10.0.5 and 5.0.4 and is allowing me to download even though already installed.



Return to posts index

Keith Koby
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:45:43 pm

i tried updating all even though it is still listed like that for me as well... It just re-installed 10.0.5.


Return to posts index


Craig Seeman
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:50:06 pm

Yup. Now showing three updates FCPX, Motion, Compress but already installed versions.



Return to posts index

Craig Seeman
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:52:32 pm

10.0.6 just appeared. Downloading....



Return to posts index

Craig Seeman
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:55:19 pm

It for some reason during download it changed from a 300MB update to 1.6GB update.
Screwy things going on in Apple server land.



Return to posts index


Keith Koby
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:04:17 pm

shoot! 10.7.5 is required! I can't update until the mdc's are updated (tomorrow night).

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:09:52 pm

Got it!



Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

Larry Asbell
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 3:58:38 pm

Were are you getting that 10.7 is required? All I am finding under "Requirements" on Apple sites is 10.6.8.



Return to posts index

Keith Koby
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 5:04:40 pm

The app store won't let you download and install without 10.7.5. It says something like "this update requires 10.7.5 first..."

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


Return to posts index

Craig Seeman
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 5:16:52 pm

Yes 10.6.8 (not in app store of course), 10.7.5, 10.8.2
Only current versions of Snow Leopard, Lion, Mountain Lion.
You're not going to find 10.6.8 in the app store and 10.7.4 or 10.8.1 doesn't meet the spec.



Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:44:12 pm

It's gotta make you laugh though, Apple leading their X.0.6 update with advanced features like Multichannel Audio Editing. Is FCPX out of beta testing? Is this a fully featured app, now?


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:47:21 pm

Compound clips are now saved in the Event browser!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:52:45 pm

[Steve Connor] "Compound clips are now saved in the Event browser!"

Moving them into events may have a side benefit of fixing project bloat. That would be a very good thing.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:54:17 pm

[David Lawrence] "Moving them into events may have a side benefit of fixing project bloat. That would be a very good thing."

It'll be one of the first things I test!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:55:43 pm

Philip Hodgetts has a great review:

http://www.philiphodgetts.com/2012/10/final-cut-pro-x-10-0-6/

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 6:58:04 pm

Range export! Still can only see 10.05 on the App Store though!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:00:01 pm

PIOPS! Yay!!!

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:01:16 pm

[David Lawrence] "PIOPS! Yay!!!"

We can finally put that particular debate to bed

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:02:42 pm

[Steve Connor] "We can finally put that particular debate to bed"

Heh heh.

Something tells me there's no way any of this is going to bed anytime soon!


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:20:59 pm

[Steve Connor] "[David Lawrence] "PIOPS! Yay!!!"

We can finally put that particular debate to bed

Steve Connor"



Not so sure about the Yay!!! part.

Phil Hodgetts said that in his beta testing, it was the thing that he disliked most...

QUOTING FROM HIS REVIEW (at http://www.philiphodgetts.com)
Persistent In and Out Points
You got them. And it’s a good implementation, allowing multiple ranges to be created in a clip. I am not a fan, and wish it were an option. Over the last two months I’ve added keywords to “ranges” I didn’t intent to have because the In and Out were held from the last playback or edit I made. Not what I want. So I have to select the whole clips again, and reapply the Keyword. It gets old after the twentieth time.

It gets in my way more than it helps, which is rather as I expected. Selection is by mouse click (mostly – there is limited keyboard support) so this gets every bit as confusing as I anticipated.

Your last range selection is maintained. To add additional range selections (persistent) hold down the Command key and drag out a selection. (There are keyboard equivalents for setting a new range during playback.) You can select multiple ranges and add them to a Project together. (I’m not sure about the use case, but it’s available.)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:02:10 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Philip Hodgetts has a great review:

http://www.philiphodgetts.com/2012/10/final-cut-pro-x-10-0-6/"


Oh, the PIOPs, the PIOPs.

And Philip hates them!


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:11:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Oh, the PIOPs, the PIOPs. And Philip hates them!"

Yes, but I am very happy! I am looking forward to trying it out to see how they've resolved the "I'm a clip, no, I'm a range" dichotomy in the UI.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

John Davidson
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:35:42 pm

They got rid of the video animations selection from within the clip that I constantly click on - yay! Clip appearance lets you see roles if desired! Yay! The dual viewer is great! The share menu is on the timeline, which should reduce the number of Apple Discussions 'why is share greyed out' posts.

That's what I've seen off the cuff. Very happy about this.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


Return to posts index

Jim Giberti
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:28:12 pm

[John Davidson] "They got rid of the video animations selection from within the clip that I constantly click on - yay!"

I'm with you there. I hated the "feature".
I wish they had focused on the color board a bit and delivered key framing for masks...shutting off corrections without having to go back to the inspector.
But overall it looks like a nice evolution.


Return to posts index

Sandeep Sajeev
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:12:05 pm

Great to see native r3d support and dual viewers.
Not sure what the issue was with the old method of creating freeze frames.
Selective copy paste is great.

Looks like Roles hasn't been expanded upon in this release.

Will have to wait for a couple of weeks to download this update, but it seems more hit than miss. Not sure what Hodgetts issue is with the PIOP's, has something been lost re keywording or favourite tagging to make this happen?


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:20:45 pm

[Sandeep Sajeev] "Not sure what Hodgetts issue is with the PIOP's, has something been lost re keywording or favourite tagging to make this happen?"

My sense from his post was that he had gotten used to not having them, and was now getting burned by forgetting to clear them. Kind of the inverse problem that everyone else has where they used to forget to favorite ranges and got burned clicking away.

That said, despite our differences on this topic, I do respect his opinion and I'm curious to see for myself if it is in fact a step backwards in the real world.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:27:13 pm

This is a prediction, but I think in the end, these small but significant issues have everything to do with editor adaptability.

Phil is a developer who's been editing for a long time - just as I'm a producer who's been editing for a long time. Neither of us sit in an edit bay all day, every day, cutting stuff. So I appreciate how these little things make a much bigger difference for the "editing as trench warfare" folk then they do for the occasional or even "often" editor.

If you live and breath on muscle memory and productivity - having what you expect in PIOP will be a big deal.

For others of us, we were fine without it, and we'll be equally fine with it.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Sandeep Sajeev
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:27:59 pm

Reading his post again he says

Over the last two months I’ve added keywords to “ranges” I didn’t intent to have because the In and Out were held from the last playback or edit I made. Not what I want. So I have to select the whole clips again, and reapply the Keyword. It gets old after the twentieth time.

So I think you're right Walter.

Something else that strikes me from his post is that the Dual Viewer implementation doesn't seem to show source time code in the viewer.


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:34:37 pm

I just created 3 x 3 minute compound clips, dropped them on the timeline bladed them about 100 times with NO increase in project size at all (I think!)

I now have 400 edits from these clips on the timeline with ZERO change in performance as well

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:48:16 pm

467 edits to the clips, project size doesn't change, responsiveness doesn't eithe,r Event size goes up slowly

Note new dotted lines on compound clip edits



Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 8:04:18 pm

So the dotted lines are "through edits" which is why it doesnt affect the project size, it's only when you start moving the cut clips around does the project size start to go up, but by no more than adding a normal edit, or so it seems.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 1:06:07 am

[Steve Connor] "So the dotted lines are "through edits" which is why it doesnt affect the project size, it's only when you start moving the cut clips around does the project size start to go up, but by no more than adding a normal edit, or so it seems."

This operates like mulitcam clips. I am so glad they made compounds like multiclips in that way.

The performance on multiclips has always been pretty good.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 8:26:23 pm

[Steve Connor] "I just created 3 x 3 minute compound clips, dropped them on the timeline bladed them about 100 times with NO increase in project size at all (I think!)

I now have 400 edits from these clips on the timeline with ZERO change in performance as well"


Sweet!

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 7:33:51 pm

It looks like that the ranges that are held are limiting the range if he wants to tag a clip (not a range) with a keyword.

So he has to unrange, select the whole clip, tag the keyword on the whole clip, and then rerange a selection.

While the rest of this forum will probably disagree, I see what he's saying. It breaks the explicit range based tagging that some of us got used to and actually liked. This now creates a level of obfuscation.

Can't wait to check it out, though.


Return to posts index

John Aldrich
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 8:20:17 pm

Strange, when I try to import .r3d files, they're greyed out and I'm unable to import. When I try to import the folder I get 'No Importable Files. None of the folders or files could be imported. Change the selection and try again." This is coming from attempts to import files off of a drive as well as directly from a RED SSD. Odd.


Return to posts index

John Aldrich
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 8:23:29 pm

Spoke too soon. Apparently you need to install the 'Red Apple Workflow Installer V.2.o first for it to work:

https://www.red.com/downloads/5086c46b17ef0223980000b3


Return to posts index

Michael Hancock
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 8:23:50 pm

Red installer:

https://www.red.com/downloads/5086c46b17ef0223980000b3

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


Return to posts index

Michael Sanders
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 8:28:07 pm

It only remembers the last points from that clip, so if you have an long I/V and use three bites - it will only remember the in and outs of the last bite.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


Return to posts index

Sandeep Sajeev
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 8:36:23 pm

But you can still have multiple favourite ranges per clip?

That was something I really liked, hope that hasn't gone.


Return to posts index

Marcus Moore
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 8:39:33 pm

Yup. Range based favourites are still there.



Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 8:42:23 pm

Responsiveness of titles is much improved

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

alban egger
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:39:22 pm

[Michael Sanders] "It only remembers the last points from that clip, so if you have an long I/V and use three bites - it will only remember the in and outs of the last bite."

You can CMD-drag to get a second I/O range.

I have also set a modifier-command CTRL-I and CTRL-O to be more precise with additional ranges.



Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:52:38 pm

I am looking forward to feedback on whether any XML compatibility to da Vinci etc has changed or 3rd party apps like X2Pro are OK with this update. Any news on external workflow changes would be appreciated, particularly with RED and Phantom.


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 8:41:17 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It looks like that the ranges that are held are limiting the range if he wants to tag a clip (not a range) with a keyword.

So he has to unrange, select the whole clip, tag the keyword on the whole clip, and then rerange a selection."


Haven't tried it yet but sounds like you're right. Even so, I don't understand what his problem is. If a PIOP is set, it makes sense that that would be the marked range for key wording (or sub clipping in other NLEs). If you want the entire clip, either select all or unmark I and O. Seems normal to me. Am I missing something?

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 8:50:55 pm

[David Lawrence] "If you want the entire clip, either select all or unmark I and O. Seems normal to me. Am I missing something?
"


Not really, David.

I think it just speaks to the fact that there are always editors who have developed "muscle memory" that really want things to work the way they're accustomed to. And then there are editors who didn't come to X with as strong a set of preconceptions. What we're seeing here is that over X's brief life, there are some editors who have developed the same "muscle memory" about how X has operated from version 1 - and they're having to re-learn things as it evolves.

Sorta reminds me of back during Legacy V1. In FCP's very first version, JKL transport controls weren't supported. I got used to doing timeline transport using the non-standard keys - then had to take a couple of weeks to re-train myself when they finally implemented JKL to accommodate the AVID folks.

Kinda the same deal here, I think.

(this little fella is growing up fast!)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 8:57:59 pm

Also the new Media Import window is VERY useful

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

John Heagy
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:22:08 pm

[Steve Connor] "Also the new Media Import window is VERY useful"

Steve, do you have QT file with an embedded Reel ID? If so can you tell me if FCPX 10.0.6 now populates the Reel field? Any file captured with FCP7 will do assuming Reel was entered prior to capture. Alexa files will do as well.

Fingers crossed...

John


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:32:52 pm

[John Heagy] "Steve, do you have QT file with an embedded Reel ID? If so can you tell me if FCPX 10.0.6 now populates the Reel field?"

Nothing with embedded reel ID on my system I'm afraid!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:19:02 pm

Wait, I started with FCP 1.2 in January of 2000. You're telling me in 1.0 and 1.1 (a mere 3-6 months earlier they didn't have jkl? That would've been a deal breaker for me! You're sure?


Return to posts index

alban egger
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:53:21 pm

Top 3 "not so obvious" features of the update:

1. Export happens in the background. When you export, doesn´t´matter to what format, FCPX will not have an export dialogue, but it will start in the background. You can work on the project or open another one. FCPX just got faster again....
1a: Bundle export. You can create bundles for different clients! One wants youtube/XDcam and a DVD, the other one wants vimeo, BluRay and an e-mail for confirmation......all in one button.

2. Dual viewers can have their own scopes
2b: While we are at the UI: the dividerlines between window-regions can be grabbed easier. I constantly had problems resizing the event library around...works MUCH better now

3. Flexible anchoring keeps the connected clips in place no matter what. When go to "Position Mode" and take a clip from the primary away, the connected clips stay and are now connected to a gap-clip. This is very close to what traditional editing was like, for those who can´t get their head around ripple modes and connected clips.



Return to posts index

Keith Koby
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:59:04 pm

Bkg export is great. Tilda drag will help resistant editors.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:54:28 pm

[Bret Williams] "Wait, I started with FCP 1.2 in January of 2000. You're telling me in 1.0 and 1.1 (a mere 3-6 months earlier they didn't have jkl? That would've been a deal breaker for me! You're sure?"

Absolutely, Bret.

When FCP 1.0 was initially released at NAB 1999, the transport key assignments were NOT mapped to JKL. My first months in FCP were spent that way, then I had to change my keyboard habits.

(I *think* they used apostrophe and semi-colon for forward and back initially, but I could be wrong about that - it's 12+ years ago after all!)

JKL came in an early update.

(UPDATE: I actually found my 1.0 manual hiding in plain sight - and YEP, V1.0 Manual Page 149: to shuttle playback forward, press the ' (apostrophe) key... to shuttle playback in reverse, press the ; (semicolon) key. - good to know my long term memory is still functioning OK!)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 9:57:28 pm

OK, installed and all hunky-dory so far with 10.7.5. Good improvements. (See - they could do PIOP after all!!!) RED works natively about as well (or not) as in Adobe. And BTW - embedded Reel numbers are read. Now for a few glass-half-empty comments.

No mixer. Dual viewer is simply a pass-through for the events, by splitting the unified viewer. No gang function and no way to play a project in the event viewer without creating a separate compound clip. So, still not as functional as dual-viewers in a traditional NLE.

On the good side (or bad depending on your POV), the fact that the engineers made icon, menu and import changes means this is very much a "work in progress". Hopefully that means they are listening/responding to users; because, by now they've shown that in some cases, their first instincts at "improvements" aren't always right. A little more interaction with actual users and studying their behaviors will help make it a better product.

Relying on third parties to deliver MXF support doesn't seem to adequately fulfill the NAB bullet-points, in my view. That gets them back to where "legacy" was, but it's not MXF support in the sense that we understand it from Adobe or Avid.

Lastly, the App Store continues to be a rather poor vehicle for this size of a file, especially on launch day.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 10:11:50 pm

[Oliver Peters] "And BTW - embedded Reel numbers are read."

Oops. Still not those embedded in QT files, like Alexa media.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 10:24:36 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Oops. Still not those embedded in QT files, like Alexa media.
"


Not even via the new import window?


Return to posts index

John Heagy
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 11:54:38 pm

[Oliver Peters] "And BTW - embedded Reel numbers are read."

Oops. Still not those embedded in QT files, like Alexa media."


You have got to be kidding me! Apple's reads Reel in Red R3D but they couldn't be bothered to read it in their own GD file!

That's just rubbing salt in the wound!

John


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 12:21:49 am

[John Heagy] "You have got to be kidding me! Apple's reads Reel in Red R3D but they couldn't be bothered to read it in their own GD file!
That's just rubbing salt in the wound!"


As I said in another thread, I believe Apple has deferred this to the camera manufacturers via the camera import SDK. RED requires the RED importer plug-in and I believe that's what takes care of adding the reel info. If FCP X could read the Alexa XML file, all the camera metadata would come in. But, of course, FCP X can't read existing XML formats, like FCP 7, PPro or Alexa. So, even though that info is there, you can't access it in X, unless you enter it yourself manually.

My guess is that Apple has simply dumped this back into ARRI's lap (and Canon, Panasonic, Sony, etc.). Ironically EVEN AVID supplies the QuickTime AMA plug-in as part of the MC and Symphony installers. It seems to be Apple's mindset to do as little engineering as needed to facilitate niche workflows. Opting instead to lay a basic foundation and then leave it up to third parties, whenever it's outside of Apple's main focus.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

John Heagy
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 2:46:41 am

[Oliver Peters] "As I said in another thread, I believe Apple has deferred this to the camera manufacturers via the camera import SDK. RED requires the RED importer plug-in and I believe that's what takes care of adding the reel info. "

This is Apple's file format with Apple's metadata. No SDK required. I could care less what the camera puts in as reel in the field. We add reel as part of our post workflow. There's little chance of prepping camera's metadata ahead of time. Our cinematographers have too much to do, they can't be expected to type in metadata. The only way of adding consistent metadata is after the fact by a small group of people. Reel for us is more GUID and it never comes straight from the camera. We assign reel to masters and element files not just camera files not to mention files captured from tape... yes tape... imagine that.

Reel is supported by Apple's new AVFoundation API. Why support it in the creation of QT files and not read it!

Nothing could be simpler for Apple to do. They simply refuse to do because it's "Old fashioned" in their minds.

Below is from the FCPX new features list. Ironic it mentions Reel soley yet Apple won't read it in their own files. Where supposed to type it in manually!!

XML 1.2 with Metadata Import and Export
Enjoy richer integration when moving projects and media between applications. XML 1.2 includes new standard metadata fields such as Reel. And Final Cut Pro X XML now includes custom project and media metadata, so you can import from — and export to — third-party apps and media asset management systems.


John


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 12:07:42 am

[Bill Davis] "Sorta reminds me of back during Legacy V1. In FCP's very first version, JKL transport controls weren't supported. I got used to doing timeline transport using the non-standard keys - then had to take a couple of weeks to re-train myself when they finally implemented JKL to accommodate the AVID folks.

Kinda the same deal here, I think."


From a UI design perspective, there's actually a subtle but important difference.

In the case of Legacy's transport, you could use other keys to accomplish the exact same result.

In the case of PIOPs, that functionality simply didn't exist. Until today!

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 10:37:35 pm

[David Lawrence] "If a PIOP is set, it makes sense that that would be the marked range for key wording (or sub clipping in other NLEs). If you want the entire clip, either select all or unmark I and O. Seems normal to me. Am I missing something?"

You have to constantly unmark the range since there's always a range there now.

If there's multiple ranges, then there's multiple parts of the clip that are keyworded.

I have to see how this plays out.


Return to posts index

Sandeep Sajeev
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 10:40:19 pm

I can see this sucking. I get what Phillip meant now.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 10:43:55 pm

[Sandeep Sajeev] "I can see this sucking. I get what Phillip meant now."

I've said my peace about PIOPs in various other threads.

I am glad Apple has figured out a way for the rest of the people, I just hope it's better. I thought the favorite system was pretty good if you got used to it.

You can easily and intentionally store ranges with favorites (I don't want to get in to another war) but this seems like you will no have to navigate both PIOPs AND favorites.

Seems kind of unnecessary, but need to get some time in the seat to test it out!

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Sandeep Sajeev
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 10:58:23 pm

Yeah the PIOP's thing has been done to death. As you say, spend enough time on anything and it will eventually become second nature.

I'm annoyed now that I have to wait until I finish the current project I'm working on before I can download and try out all this new stuff!

Jeremy, can you confirm that there's no source time code in the event viewer? What happens when you turn on clip info?


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 12:31:09 am

[Sandeep Sajeev] "Yeah the PIOP's thing has been done to death. As you say, spend enough time on anything and it will eventually become second nature. "

I completely see Philip's point.

You have no idea what range(s) are in any of the clips, so if you start keywording a bunch of things at once or tagging them, you are only tagging the ranges, and not the clips. It was so much easier with just favorites as the favorite ranges didn't override a clip range unless you selected those ranges. I'd like an option to turn this off.

An upside to it, is that you can mark and then tag a selection of ranges if that's what you want.

[Sandeep Sajeev] "Jeremy, can you confirm that there's no source time code in the event viewer? What happens when you turn on clip info?"

Source tc is displayed in the one tc window.

Clip info still works in the Event on the filmstrip.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 10:48:20 pm

I don't get the complaints you guys and Philip are tossing out regarding PIOP. These work exactly the way they always have in "legacy" and in every other NLE. It simply holds the last in/out points. If you have a range-based Favorite and other in/outs, it holds the Favorite as a "subclip" plus the last in/out that was marked. There's no need to clear anything out. Simply leave it there as it's not hurting anything.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 10:54:35 pm

[Oliver Peters] "These work exactly the way they always have in "legacy" and in every other NLE. It simply holds the last in/out points. "

Or as many as you want in a clip, not just the last one. It does work differently than legacy if you want it to.

[Oliver Peters] "I don't get the complaints you guys and Philip are tossing out regarding PIOP."

I didn't understand how people couldn't get used to favorites, so....we're even?

:)

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 12:23:44 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Or as many as you want in a clip, not just the last one. It does work differently than legacy if you want it to."

Yes, but only by holding a modifier key. Most of the time you just want the last entry held.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 12:32:58 am

[Oliver Peters] "Yes, but only by holding a modifier key. Most of the time you just want the last entry held."

I understand.

I don't like this new method, but I am obviously not in the popular camp on this one.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 1:19:51 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't like this new method, but I am obviously not in the popular camp on this one."

In even more playing around, this isn't very fun.

I appreciate the need for PIOPs, I use them all the time in other NLEs.

But FCPX doesn't work that way.

I think this breaks (or significantly hampers) a really strong suit of FCPX and that is the organization methods.


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 2:23:16 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "In even more playing around, this isn't very fun.

I appreciate the need for PIOPs, I use them all the time in other NLEs.

But FCPX doesn't work that way.

I think this breaks (or significantly hampers) a really strong suit of FCPX and that is the organization methods."


Jeremy, when you have a free moment, I'd love to read a more detailed post on why you feel this way (and perhaps what might fix it for you.) I'm genuinely curious.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 2:39:23 am

[David Lawrence] "eremy, when you have a free moment, I'd love to read a more detailed post on why you feel this way (and perhaps what might fix it for you.) I'm genuinely curious."

Surely.

I have to spend a bit more time with it and make sure my first impressions stick around.

In other news, there's a ton to like and PIOPs aren't a deal breaker.

The Red importer has a floating HUD. Picture here:


red_hud.png

I wonder if plugin devs could access this type of interface to create custom plug in controls?

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 5:07:10 am

[David Lawrence] "eremy, when you have a free moment, I'd love to read a more detailed post on why you feel this way (and perhaps what might fix it for you.) I'm genuinely curious."

OK, I think I have seen enough.

So these PIOPs work like FCP7, and they also have a bit of an upgrade in that you can store multiple ranges as a PIOP.

In a way, it's cool. In another way, it's really just like Favorites, but with even more caveats, less user control, and more automation.

What I really like about FCPX's organizational capabilities, is that a clip can be in any number of "places" (or groups), but yet still remain in place.

What I mean by that is that FCPX allows you to sort data in many different ways through various methods (keywords, smart collections, favorites, rejects, etc).

This allows me to make all kinds of dynamic decisions as I edit, and not have to limit myself to one bin, or duplicate instances, or make true subclips. I can then delete that data once I am "done with it". This big feature separates FCPX from other NLEs, at least in my mind. It is a rather unique feature that I use and like a lot. Sorting in FCPX is a big strength.

With Favorites, I had control of it. I know what I wanted to hold on to, which ranges I wanted to keep, keyword, or not, and I have a graphical example of that in the list view with icons (Key, Star, Red X, etc) and in filmstrip view (with the little green/blue/red bars).

With PIOPs, I can't see where they are. I can sort the Event by Filmstrip, select the clips I want to deselect the range from, and then apply a command to clear all the selected ranges. If I am in list view, I have no idea which clips have PIOP(s) or not.

If I don't (or forget to) deselect the range, and add a keyword to multiple clips, the keyword gets added only to the PIOP range(s), and not the whole clip.

This relinquishes control to the software. With Favorites, I had to remember to hit f after marking a range, but it allowed more flexibility in marking keywords with either ranged or unranged. I had full control.

With this new method, if I have lots and lots of clips to sort through and tag, I have to do a lot more work just to make sure that there's no PIOPs on all the clips before I tag them with a keyword. I have no control of how and where the PIOPs are stored

How would this get better? I would make PIOPs a visual cue, just like a keyword or favorite (although, this just causes more clutter).

I would also go so far as liking to have an option to turn off PIOPs via a preference.

I could see having the option to have keywords avoid PIOP ranges, perhaps with a modifier key of some sort.

PIOPs feel like automatic favorites; automatic with little control. I know there was a HUGE backlash during the inception of FCPX about the software being dumbed down and making decisions for you. Ironically to me, this is the most this application has been dumbed down and the most decisions it is making for me. Yet, it seems to be a feature that people have really clamored for, especially the people who don't use the software that much.

Oh well, to each their own, and ya can't win them all.

Onward.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 11:48:26 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "PIOPs feel like automatic favorites; automatic with little control. I know there was a HUGE backlash during the inception of FCPX about the software being dumbed down and making decisions for you. Ironically to me, this is the most this application has been dumbed down and the most decisions it is making for me. Yet, it seems to be a feature that people have really clamored for, especially the people who don't use the software that much."

I still don't get the reason for the complaint. You didn't lose anything. You simply gained a second way of working. What's the problem? Don't use it and continue to use range-based favorites as you always have. I also see no element of "the software being dumbed down and making decisions for you" in this instance.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Keith Koby
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 1:26:34 pm

Yes, I agree Oliver. It doesn't seem that this addition prevents you in any way from working with favorites as before. It's a simple key stroke to get back to the whole clip being selected.

From my standpoint, as I'm training staff to use the program, it was very difficult to get people understand that they needed to mark the favorite marking before moving away to something else. The editors I'm working with won't have the luxury of spending lots of time in the program before making the switch. The feature of the range becoming unmarked was a deal breaker for them. A lot of guys go back and forth from the timeline to the event (or the viewer in legacy), I'm not sure of why they have the compulsion, but they do. Checking TC, whatever... I'm not willing to fight for them to overcome the problem they have with the unmarking and I found it cumbersome myself.

This is a big step forward in getting wider adoption and like Oliver, I can't find that it's some huge hindrance to the old way. It seems that it has even given you a way to keyword ranges on multiple clips simultaneously. I haven't tried that, but it seems it would work.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 1:45:37 pm

[Keith Koby] "This is a big step forward in getting wider adoption and like Oliver, I can't find that it's some huge hindrance to the old way. It seems that it has even given you a way to keyword ranges on multiple clips simultaneously. I haven't tried that, but it seems it would work."

I understand.

People had a really tough time with favorites for some reason. I really liked them. Ranges now work completely differently. I can still favorite a clip, but then that range is held on to not only by a favorite, but a PIOP as well (unless I clear the range after adding the clip to the timeline).

This works exactly like FCP7 did, but FCPX works differently than FCP7 so I feel this is a step backwards. I know this is not a popular view point. So be it.

If you editors that you are training don't use keywords, rejections, or any other tags, range or clip based, PIOPs work very well.

With other NLEs, most of the organization is done right up front, almost before editing.

WIth FCPX, I can constantly reorganize clips, or groups of clips, for different purposes (which is one of the huge reasons I like FCPX, clips can be here AND here, not here OR here). PIOPs now add extra steps in order for me to continue organizing the way I'd like, and there's no visual cue in list view of which clips have PIOPs. If there was a visual cue, then they would just turn in to another favoriting system.

I'll have to show you later.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 1:38:12 pm

It is clear after reading the really really long PIOP thread from earlier this year, I see this way different than some people. In that thread, I think I was the only person who didn't want PIOPs, or saw favorites as way to get user selectable PIOPS with very minimal fuss. I think it might be very hard for me to explain why I don't like PIOPs in FCPX.

[Oliver Peters] "I still don't get the reason for the complaint. You didn't lose anything. You simply gained a second way of working. What's the problem?"

I thought I explained it decently in the long post before this one. I'll have to find time for a screenshot-a-thon later.

[Oliver Peters] "Don't use it and continue to use range-based favorites as you always have."

Therein lies the problem. I have no choice but to use them as they are always there. In order to not use them, Id' mark a range, add it to the timeline, go back to the clip and deselect the range. What a pain in the ass. I have specific examples, but I'll back them up with screenshots later. I wish I could turn them off.

[Oliver Peters] "I also see no element of "the software being dumbed down and making decisions for you" in this instance."

Because FCPX is making a decision that it's going to hold on to that range. When I add tags to that clip, it will only tag that range, and that might not be what I want. When you select a large group of clips, you have no idea if there's any PIOPs on them or not unless I am sorted in to filmstrip view. I use list view a lot more than filmstrip. It basically creates more clicks for me and slows down the workflow. I rather liked the speed at which I could move before PIOPs.

Without PIOPs, I had full control over what I wanted tagged or not. Now with PIOPs, I have to take extra steps.

I do like the multiple ranges, but I wish they wouldn't stick around.

More later.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 2:33:14 pm

Jeremy, this makes sense to me.

I maintain that range selection was too transient before, and that it was too easy to lose user data, but now I wonder if the current range selection is too persistent, making it too hard for the user to manage.

This is in part why I why I backed down to wanting selections pushed onto the undo stack. Mitigate loss of user data without mucking too much with the good parts of the new selection and object models.

I'm going to have to spend some time with this next week to form a more informed opinion, but I totally see where you're coming from.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 11:13:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "add it to the timeline, go back to the clip and deselect the range."

Why?????? This makes absolutely no sense to me.

Oh, never mind, I give up!

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:02:56 am

[Oliver Peters] "Why?????? This makes absolutely no sense to me.

Oh, never mind, I give up!"


I can't work without ranges.

I mark a range, and I add a clip to the timeline, and that range is stored in the Event (or multiple ranges if I have marked multiple ranges).

Those ranges are now saved forever until I remember to delete them.

Can we at least agree on that much?

Let's say two weeks from now client calls and needs changes. All of the clips from one keyword collection in my timeline have failed legal due to lost name and likeness releases, and I need to reedit the piece to get rid of one location.

I take all the clips in the Event that have failed legal, and reject them.

But, since there's PIOPs, only the PIOP range gets rejected, not the entire clip, so when I go to hide rejected, only the PIOP ranges disappear instead of whole clips.

Before PIOPs, I could do what I want. I ranged favorites, which meant I wanted to explicitly keep or reject those ranges. Now, I have to manage those PIOPs, and since I can't see them very well (the software does not have a method to track these PIOPs except in filmstrip view), it's much harder to manage than it was to hit 'f' after marking a range.

I also can't sort clips by PIOP range in the Event like I can with keywords, favorites, or rejects.

Sorry, but I don't like it, and rather breaks a really good thing that FCPX had going, in my very unpopular opinion.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

John Davidson
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:08:57 am

Whatever floats your boat dude! I'm sure you're figure out a workaround.

I think the reason I have a hard time understanding why it's a negative is that I've never rejected a clip, so it's not a muscle memory that I have to unlearn.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:17:26 am

[John Davidson] "I think the reason I have a hard time understanding why it's a negative is that I've never rejected a clip, so it's not a muscle memory that I have to unlearn."

It can go the other way.

If I want to keyword or favorite or tag anything with an entire clip, but that clip has PIOPs, the PIOP range is always respected.

The work around is to clear every PIOP after every edit (gag).

Or constantly select all the clips in the Event and clear the selected PIOPs (gag x2).

Jeremy


Return to posts index

John Davidson
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:24:46 am

Ok, I think I'm getting it a little bit. Look on the bright side though. If you have an event with a ton of sfx, sometimes the sfx makers give you way too much in the way of handles. Maintaining the range will save you the annoyance of having to either trimming the inserted clip to the usable area or having to favorite the clip. No?

We do lots of sfx so it makes that a little easier.

I could be totally wrong.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:43:05 am

[John Davidson] "We do lots of sfx so it makes that a little easier.

I could be totally wrong."


You aren't wrong. I use PIOPs all the time in other NLEs because they work that way.

FCPX has different methods that I quite enjoyed and allowed a level of flexibility that I can't get out of other NLEs.

I would just like the capability back without all the extra steps.

A user preference would be nice:

PIOPs, YES/NO

Jeremy


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:19:28 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "But, since there's PIOPs, only the PIOP range gets rejected, not the entire clip, so when I go to hide rejected, only the PIOP ranges disappear instead of whole clips."

Would a "Forget Ranges" command that could be applied after selecting clips in the event browser fix it for you?

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:20:39 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Those ranges are now saved forever until I remember to delete them.....
......I take all the clips in the Event that have failed legal, and reject them. But, since there's PIOPs, only the PIOP range gets rejected, not the entire clip, so when I go to hide rejected, only the PIOP ranges disappear instead of whole clips."


Aah, OK, now I see the issue. It's not a problem with PIOPs at all. The problem is that Apple BROKE the show/hide rated clips mechanism when they added PIOP. So I think your frustration is actually misdirected, IMHO.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I also can't sort clips by PIOP range in the Event like I can with keywords, favorites, or rejects."

Time to go back to Media Composer ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:30:59 am

[Oliver Peters] "Aah, OK, now I see the issue. It's not a problem with PIOPs at all. The problem is that Apple BROKE the show/hide rated clips mechanism when they added PIOP. So I think your frustration is actually misdirected, IMHO."

That's part of what I said much earlier on. There's no visual cue (like a key, a star, a red x that show up in list view in the Event) and there's no way to control PIOPs like you can with the other range capabilities in FCPX.

I do not think it's misdirected at all (imagine that).

If you add capability to PIOPs like Favorite, Keyword, or Rejected ranges, then you have just added the exact same capability that was already in the software, so what's the point of adding them in the first place?

Or did I lose you again?

It IS a problem with PIOPs and how they work. If they were just a stored ranges like favorites (with perhaps a little yellow bar instead of a range that is ignored until clicked on) it might be better.

Now, when I mark a range as a favorite, not only have I stored that range as a favorite, but FCPX stores that range as a PIOP unless I option-x all the time. It is now double stored.

It's f*cked up.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:34:51 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "It IS a problem with PIOPs and how they work. If they were just a stored ranges like favorites (with perhaps a little yellow bar instead of a range that is ignored until clicked on) it might be better."

I do see where you are coming from. I think the core of the problem is allowing multiple PIOPs per clip, instead of simply holding the last In-Out. Maybe another case of Apple over-thinking things.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:44:05 am

[Oliver Peters] "I think the core of the problem is allowing multiple PIOPs per clip, instead of simply holding the last In-Out."

But it doesn't matter. One range or 14 ranges. It's all the same. It's always one too many if you don't want them.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 1:14:05 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "But it doesn't matter. One range or 14 ranges. It's all the same. It's always one too many if you don't want them."

I think you missed my point. The core of your complaint is how it's affecting the organizational methods. If that had been left unchanged and there was simply a single PIOP set held that didn't interact with these, I doubt you'd have a problem with this. Obviously the way this was implemented has caused unwanted and unnecessary changes. If by design, then it's "engineering over-think". If not, then it's a bug.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 1:46:28 am

[Oliver Peters] "I think you missed my point. The core of your complaint is how it's affecting the organizational methods. If that had been left unchanged and there was simply a single PIOP set held that didn't interact with these, I doubt you'd have a problem with this. Obviously the way this was implemented has caused unwanted and unnecessary changes. If by design, then it's "engineering over-think". If not, then it's a bug."

Even if there's only one PIOP, it still interacts. Multiple PIOPs really have nothing to do with it.

If PIOPs didn't interact with the other range capabilities, then yes, I wouldn't have a problem, but how would that work since PIOPs are a range themselves? There's no way a PIOP can and can't be a range, unless of course, you define two types of ranges. Command drag for persistent, drag for forgetful. 'option-i' for persistent, 'i' for forgetful.

I think it is Apple reacting to the insurmountable amount of backlash, and destroyed a good idea in the process. I guess that could be considered over thinking.

I can't say that I blame them, it's just too bad they had to make such a harsh compromise.

There is a lot to like in this update. I am glad Apple is listening. The other benefits outweigh the PIOP change. The flexible connections are very helpful, for example.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 2:01:01 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "If PIOPs didn't interact with the other range capabilities, then yes, I wouldn't have a problem, but how would that work since PIOPs are a range themselves? "

Why? The organization function is based on rating the range. As long as these stay unrated, its shouldn't be affected. I'll agree that the design, as currently implemented, has had unintended consequences.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 2:08:20 am

[Oliver Peters] "I'll agree that the design, as currently implemented, has had unintended consequences."

So you're saying Apple didn't mean to do this?

I'd disagree. The ranges work exactly like they did before. If a range is marked on a clip and you tag it with something (keyword, favorite, whatever) only the range is tagged.


Return to posts index

Sandeep Sajeev
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 2:31:22 am

I totally agree with you Jeremy. This affects the way I work too.

I thnk if Apple had designed it such that the PiOP's were deactivated (still visible, but not actionable without a keystroke to turn them back on) it would have been better.

And not showing the PIOP'S in list view is folly. X is tracking them, so why not show them? Forcing us to use the filmstrip view is a problem on a single monitor set up - the new iMac's for example - in Events with a fair amount of footage. Legacy showed you when clips had I/O set in the Browser, and it was instantly visible.

I can see why this was such a flashpoint with the development team.


Return to posts index

Sandeep Sajeev
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 2:38:46 am

Is there a way to select a bunch of clips and clear their PIOP'S ? Or does this have to be done on a per clip basis ?


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 2:42:54 am

[Sandeep Sajeev] "Is there a way to select a bunch of clips and clear their PIOP'S ? Or does this have to be done on a per clip basis ?"

You can.

There's a "Clear Selected Ranges" command (option-x, just like clear in/out in Legend).

This also allows you to select different ranges on one clip and clear only the selected ones leaving behind what you want.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 6:31:54 pm

I just sent a long feedback report. Here's what I came up with:

- Make persistent ranges definable within each clip, meaning, give them an icon similar to favorite ranges, rejection ranges, even keyword ranges (a Blue Key, Red X, Green star, etc) so we can see if there's a persistent range no matter if we are in filmstrip or list view in the Event. Or have a Range In/out columns in the browser for list view.

- Have two different kinds of ranges, persistent, and not persistent. This would allow me to control what I want to hold on to, and what I want the program to forget when I click away. Temporary ranges could be a click and drag, and persistent ranges could be an option click and drag, or vice versa.

- Have a modifier key for range tagging that applies the keyword/favorite to the whole clip instead of just a persistent range. if I wanted to keyword 500 clips at once, I could hit 'control-option-KeywordNumber' to tag the whole clip and ignore any persistent ranges, and 'control-KeywordNumber' to tag any ranges that might be selected. Or hit 'option-f' to favorite the whole clip, and f favorites the persistent ranges. If a clip doesn't have a persistent range on it, the whole clip is keyworded/favorited/etc

- Have a preference to turn off persistent ranges completely.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 6:34:05 pm

I, for one, welcome our new PIOP overlords

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 6:37:11 pm

[Steve Connor] "I, for one, welcome our new PIOP overlords"

I know the value of them, I just wish they didn't break some good things in FCPX.


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 7:35:39 pm

I'm sorry to be so far behind but are you saying multiple previous range selections are saved or can be saved because for the life of me I cannot see where.

I do kind of get why Avid editors are just saying..."why the f..k change it when it works just okay as it is"?


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 9:31:38 pm

[James Ewart] "I'm sorry to be so far behind but are you saying multiple previous range selections are saved or can be saved because for the life of me I cannot see where."

With 10.0.6, a range is automatically saved. It is a dim yellow line on your clips that you can only see on a filmstrip or if your Event is sorted in filmstrip view, otherwise, they are invisible but present none the less.

Before 10.0.6, you had to tell the software what you wanted to save through a number of really easy to use key commands.

When you start adding range based metadata, this makes a huge difference in operability.

Range based metadata is one of the things that I find to be very helpful and useful in FCPX as I can sort footage in a variety of ways using a variety of methods that help me edit my projects and group footage to my liking dynamically.

Now the software makes more decisions for me and causes way more keystrokes and unintentional mistakes than before the update.

I use persistent in and out points in other NLEs because they make sense, they make less sense in FCPX, but my opinion is very unpopular.


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 26, 2012 at 4:10:14 am

Thanks I've noticed these appeared now but also before that if you used match frame (shift F) it remembered which bits you used for that clip in the timeline anyway so what's the point...it only seems to remember the most recent range in the event browser no?

How did you do it before by the way?


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 26, 2012 at 4:59:23 am

[James Ewart] ".it only seems to remember the most recent range in the event browser no?"

You can make multiple ranges if you'd like, after making one range, hold command and drag another. You can command drag as many new ones as you want, they will all be remembered until
cleared. There are also keyboard shortcuts for these actions.

[James Ewart] "How did you do it before by the way?"

I used favorites or rejects or keywords to mark ranges. The nice thing is you can sort the event browser by these ranges, not so with PIOPs, unfortunately.


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 26, 2012 at 6:21:50 am

which is quite cool because you can select three ranges from one clip and drop them all into the timeline at once. Not that I am aware of ever needing to do that...but how do you delete and what are the keyboard shortcuts ...there seem to be more keyboard shortcuts than ever before I think.

And I'm with you I was using keywords to mark up clips...this seems a little lazy and liable to get a bit messy.

Still can't figure how to delete.


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 26, 2012 at 6:32:13 am

okay found the relevant help section now thanks


Return to posts index

alban egger
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 6:23:55 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Let's say two weeks from now client calls and needs changes. All of the clips from one keyword collection in my timeline have failed legal due to lost name and likeness releases, and I need to reedit the piece to get rid of one location.

I take all the clips in the Event that have failed legal, and reject them.

But, since there's PIOPs, only the PIOP range gets rejected, not the entire clip, so when I go to hide rejected, only the PIOP ranges disappear instead of whole clips."


Select a clip and type "X" and the whole clip is selected and ready to be rejected. If you have a lot of those spread over the place I understand this could be a problem, but I cannot remember any project I ever had with this being an issue, that wouldn´t have been solved by the keywording I did beforehand. And even if, the benefits of having Favorites AND ranges far outweigh this singular issue IMO.



Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:48:38 pm

[alban egger] "Select a clip and type "X" and the whole clip is selected and ready to be rejected."

I can select all clips and hit option-x and clear all ranges.

It's an extra step that is unnecessary.



[alban egger] ", but I cannot remember any project I ever had with this being an issue, that wouldn´t have been solved by the keywording I did beforehand."

That's the thing. I keyword before hand but often during an edit, I'll create new and rather temporary collections.

For instance, if I want to find very instance of "JoeBlow" and tag those because the client wants to see all
Of Joe's footage, I can't just type JoeBlow and tag them all. It will only tag the PIOPs unless I remember to clear all PIOPs. But what if I was using PIOPs to organize? So now, I can't keyboard what I want, or in have to destroy my PIOP organization.

This new method sucks, but Apple gave people exactly what they wanted simply becuae people refused to use and learn the rather good and flexible methods the software already had in place.

It's frustrating for me as I really really liked how the Event Browser worked. It is now much slower and less accurate for me.

[alban egger] "And even if, the benefits of having Favorites AND ranges far outweigh this singular issue IMO."

I know you kniw this software well, but don't you see that Favorites ARE ranges?

Jeremy


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 10:54:36 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "You have to constantly unmark the range since there's always a range there now.

If there's multiple ranges, then there's multiple parts of the clip that are keyworded.

I have to see how this plays out."


Doesn't Command-A take care of everything?

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 10:59:14 pm

[David Lawrence] "Doesn't Command-A take care of everything?"

Unless you forget to command all before you start keywording.

Just like if you forgot to favorite before.

What I don't know is if you select a bunch of clips in the Event, what range is selected?

Walter S is right, it's the exact inverse of the favorite situation.


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 11:11:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Unless you forget to command all before you start keywording.

Just like if you forgot to favorite before.

What I don't know is if you select a bunch of clips in the Event, what range is selected?

Walter S is right, it's the exact inverse of the favorite situation."


Guess I'm in the same camp as Oliver, just don't get what the big deal is. This is totally standard UI behavior for NLEs. If PIOPs were in the 10.0.0 release, I don't think anyone would be complaining now.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 12:00:59 am

I can't even really talk about it anymore.

They are there, you should be overjoyed!


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 12:06:23 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "They are there, you should be overjoyed!"

I am!

Can I have tracks now? :)

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 1:50:00 pm

[David Lawrence] "Doesn't Command-A take care of everything?"

It doesn't.


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 11:50:04 am

Pardon me fr being thick..what is PIOP?


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:38:58 pm

[James Ewart] "Pardon me fr being thick..what is PIOP?"

Persistent In and Out Points

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:43:02 pm

[James Ewart] "Pardon me fr being thick..what is PIOP?"

Do a forum search, grab yourself a LARGE coffee and enjoy the many pages of discussion on the subject.

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

Craig Seeman
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 25, 2012 at 12:53:43 pm

[James Ewart] "Pardon me fr being thick..what is PIOP?"

It's something editors develop over time. Kind of like Carpal's Tunnel Syndrome. It's a repetitive stress disease. The symptom, as expressed in editors, is Persistent In and Out Points such that one moves away with keyboard command or mouse, one expects the previously marked In and Out Points to remain marked.



Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 10:14:55 pm

[Rob McGreevy] "Subject says it all... many old favorites are back like copy/paste attributes, freeze frame and get this a drop shadow! :-)"

Kudos to Apple...this is a very nice update.


Return to posts index

Brad Bussé
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 23, 2012 at 10:53:57 pm

From Apple's what's new, under the headline Optimized for MacBook Pro with Retina Display:
"Smoothly edit multicam projects with up to nine streams of 1080p ProRes 422 (HQ) content or up to four streams of 1080p uncompressed 8-bit video, right from your internal flash storage."

Really? How many of you out there are planning on working with projects running 9 streams of 1080p ProRes 422 (HQ) on a half terabyte of storage shared with the boot drive?


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 8:00:40 am

The dual viewer system is miles better than what we have in 10.0.5. Do note I haven't jumped away from FCP7 as my main editor. However, I'm still lacking a few (a lot perhaps) of things:

- General GUI performance is horrible. Scrolling in the event browser should be silky smooth.

- The secondary views shouldn't be locked as a "event viewer". I'd love to se it work as a dual viewer for the timeline as well. The player shows the current play-head location, the view is used for skimming or similar. If I'm doing effects / color corrections I want two viewers which isn't possible currently. It's a step forward but quite limited.

- Timecode, timecode, timecode! I never new I much I used TC before trying out FCPX and seeing how much LACK of timecode there is. The viewer needs to show TC.

- Use the view to "open clip from timeline". Why can't I do this?

- I don't get any visual indication of how long a clip is in the viewer and / or player. Mini timelines are lacking.

Over all Apple seems to be pushing things. But the application still feels quite some ways off to be ready for prime-time. For me primarily the perceived performance is a huge hurdle to get over.


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 2:45:57 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "Use the view to "open clip from timeline". Why can't I do this?"

Select the clip in the timeline (there's keyboards shortcuts for that), then SHIFT-F.


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 2:53:18 pm

That's not the same thing. That command shows the clip in the event browser not the timeline. I.e. any change done in the timeline isn't reflected to the clip in the event viewer which is bad and renders the tool less useful I'd say.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 3:19:04 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "That's not the same thing. That command shows the clip in the event browser not the timeline. I.e. any change done in the timeline isn't reflected to the clip in the event viewer which is bad and renders the tool less useful I'd say."

Just curios, but what would you need this feature for? The Viewer does what you're asking, there's no need to load the clip in the Event Viewer just so that you can see what you're doing in the timeline, doubled.

With FCP7, you had to do this in order to access the Motion panel, with X, you have access to the control in the inspector.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 6:11:35 pm

Review A/B shots or gang just about anything the current timeline. FCP7 also supported extra viewers - I've been working with 4-up on some projects. For CC-work its great to be able to see for example next edit, previous edit, reference frame X and / or perhaps current frame with out filters.

The list goes on virtually. The current dual viewer is step in the right direction but they could make it 10-times more flexible.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 6:26:42 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "FCP7 also supported extra viewers - I've been working with 4-up on some projects. For CC-work its great to be able to see for example next edit, previous edit, reference frame X and / or perhaps current frame with out filters."

Yes, that I can see. More than two viewers I completely understand.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 8:22:55 pm

The dual viewers COULD be more powerful than they are. Locking them like now feels almost lazy.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 9:09:38 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "The dual viewers COULD be more powerful than they are. Locking them like now feels almost lazy."

Do you use two monitors?


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 9:17:46 pm

Two computer monitors and two video-outputs via the Kona 3.

Speaking of which, FCPX could handle two monitors far better.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 9:28:14 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "Speaking of which, FCPX could handle two monitors far better."

There's a ton of stuff that could be "better", I could say the same about almost any NLE and life in general. :)

I do like messing around with the dual monitor setups, along with the scopes.

Especially with video out, having the Event and timeline on one screen with the viewers on another I find to be pretty good.

It is certainly different, but I am OK with different. I don't need FCPX to be FCP8.

It is more useful than what we had before the update. I still miss ganging, but I can now at least match frame edits between Event and timeline with a lot less trouble.


Return to posts index

Robert Sala
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 8:08:28 am

How about the retina tethered to Pegasus R6 thunderbolt?


Return to posts index

Erik Lindahl
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 24, 2012 at 9:03:32 am

There are cheaper options to have fans whining at you all day long… :)


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 26, 2012 at 2:10:23 pm

Funny how muscle memory kicks in, when I have the viewer enabled I've been double clicking clips to load them!

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 26, 2012 at 2:12:11 pm

Yup..I could not get used to not having it there and now it's there I have decided I don' need it most of the time and have disabled it.


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: 10.06 On Apple's Website Now
on Oct 26, 2012 at 2:19:32 pm

[James Ewart] "Yup..I could not get used to not having it there and now it's there I have decided I don' need it most of the time and have disabled it.
"


I haven't been using it much, but stick the scopes under both windows horizontally and it's amazing for shot matching

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]