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Aindreas Gallagher
gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 12:47:51 am

http://daringfireball.net/2011/06/final_cut_pro_x_backlash

so it's OSX 10.0 gruber? really? is it? I'll tell my gas bill that.

conjunction of the humanities and the sciences my ass. they destroyed a core application for the creative community, rendered their hardware IO systems useless, broke all their third party software, produced ridiculous new software -( i cant see the clip I'm thinking about and where its going at the same time - tip - that's important )- apple are just full of godawful hubris shite, they wrecked a core creative application to go after ipod owners to tempt them to edit their stuff - but with an application where apple makes 299 coin.

this application is designed to make new amateur money; to the people priorly pursuing their craft and professional livelihood apple could not give a damn about as a company, because apple just keeps moving, they just swim like a shark in the creative waters, because apple is a company that needs to continue to feed.

We're eaten bread.

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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MIke Guidotti
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 12:52:07 am

The myth has been shattered. Apple does not care about broadcast and film professionals and artists. They are after the quick buck. Is this a surprise from a company who's stock is more overvalued than Enron once was?


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Chris Kenny
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:00:54 am

[MIke Guidotti] "Apple does not care about broadcast and film professionals and artists."

Because a handful of features are missing from a what's effectively 1.0 release? People need to cut it out with this overly dramatic nonsense.

[MIke Guidotti] "Is this a surprise from a company who's stock is more overvalued than Enron once was?"

Take another look at Apple's P/E. AAPL is badly undervalued on the basis of current earnings and growth trends.

--
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MIke Guidotti
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:03:27 am

Apple has enough fanboys to keep them in business forever.


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Jamie Franklin
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:09:33 am

[Chris Kenny] "1.0 release? People need to cut it out with this overly dramatic nonsense."

This doesn't wash. A 1.0 release doesn't excuse leaving a 54% marketshare where they were 2 days ago or having to go elsewhere...


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Chris Kenny
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:17:32 am

[Jamie Franklin] "This doesn't wash. A 1.0 release doesn't excuse leaving a 54% marketshare where they were 2 days ago or having to go elsewhere..."

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is with leaving (some of) their users where they were two days ago while continuing to add features to FCP X that will eventually allow those users to move over.

--
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Jamie Franklin
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:27:40 am

[Chris Kenny] "I'm not sure I understand what the problem is with leaving (some of) their users where they were two days ago while continuing to add features to FCP X that will eventually allow those users to move over."

I don't even know where to begin to answer that.

Like I have said before, your defense is admirable, there *may* be something to this program some day for the 54% market share, but please stop. They yanked off the shelf where their users were 2 days ago on top of this very limited release.

There is far more going on here then just a lack of features and that's fine you won't address that, but this is a complete paradigm shift on Apple's part when that new paradigm cannot even replace what came before it while at the same time yanking 7 out of our hands without warning...

Yes, we can still use 7...if we have a copy or are lucky to find one that doesn't cost 3000$ on ebay by next week...

It stinks. It's not overly dramatic...this is a pretty big deal to some of us...


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Chris Kenny
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:33:49 am

[Jamie Franklin] "Like I have said before, your defense is admirable, there *may* be something to this program some day for the 54% market share, but please stop. They yanked off the shelf where their users were 2 days ago on top of this very limited release. "

FCP X isn't missing that many features (i.e. I think it will be viable for most people sooner than "some day"), and while I agree Apple should have left FCS3 on sale, the way people are acting you'd think Apple had yanked it off their hard drives.

In point of fact, it's not all that uncommon for more conservative customers like facilities to hold off for 12 or 18 months even on incremental upgrades... and Apple has always, as far as I know, pulled old versions when new ones went on sale. So if those customers managed to remain FCS2 shops for 18 months after FCS3 was the only thing on Apple's shelves, I don't see why they won't be able to do the same with FCS3 and FCP X.

--
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Jamie Franklin
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:46:48 am

[Chris Kenny] " So if those customers managed to remain FCS2 shops for 18 months after FCS3 was the only thing on Apple's shelves, I don't see why they won't be able to do the same with FCS3 and FCP X."

You have me scratching my head here. FCS3 was a pretty soft "update"...this is not. And I think the way this was delivered gives everyone enough reason to doubt it's future. Drama justified. That aside, we have been clamoring for Final Cut to keep pace with other platforms and not reinvent the wheel while we wait for it to be viable for a true post workflow. "Some day"...

I just feel the pushback is warranted. The pushback to the pushback seems fairly shallow and assumes things none of us know on Apples behalf who are quite, understandably at this point, silent...


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Chris Kenny
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:58:59 am

[Jamie Franklin] "You have me scratching my head here. FCS3 was a pretty soft "update""

Yes, but files weren't backwards compatible. Which means that facilities that chose to stay on FCS2 -- which quite a few did -- had to be able to get copies of it despite it not being available direct from Apple anymore. If getting discontinued versions wasn't a serious problem then, why would it be now?

[Jamie Franklin] "I just feel the pushback is warranted. The pushback to the pushback seems fairly shallow and assumes things none of us know on Apples behalf "

As I've noted, there's evidence of at least some level of implementation of some of the missing features lurking in the FCP X binaries. Apple pretty much told Philip Hodgetts flat out that they're working on the 'ecosystem' thing, which means XML or some other interface mechanism for third-party tools. And the idea that Apple is never going to support video I/O is kind of silly. I mean, what'd they bother with Thunderbolt for, if they're not going to use it for things like this? My guess with video I/O is that it requires framework features that aren't quite there yet (remember, FCP X isn't written on top of QuickTime). I'd say there's about a 60% chance they are there in Lion.

--
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Jamie Franklin
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 2:06:33 am

[Chris Kenny] "Yes, but files weren't backwards compatible. Which means that facilities that chose to stay on FCS2 -- which quite a few did -- had to be able to get copies of it despite it not being available direct from Apple anymore. If getting discontinued versions wasn't a serious problem then, why would it be now?"

It was where I worked then. That wasted a lot of man hours for such a dodgy thing *forcing* us to upgrade and shelving projects until we got our systems running...I'm not saying my experience was everyone's so I can only speak for myself on that...bygones


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Herb Sevush
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 2:09:33 pm

Chris -

Most of your remarks are valid and reasonable, but here your trying to have it both ways.

Apple has always, as far as I know, pulled old versions when new ones went on sale

Over and over you have stated that this is a new 1.0 release and should be judged that way. It is most emphatically NOT a "new version" but rather a new application using an old name.

Pulling FCS3 off the shelf is the single most damming thing about this whole situation. Nothing you have said explains it in any way, yet you go on distorting your own logic in trying to defend it and I can't figure out why.

If Apple were interested in staying in the broadcast side of the business they would have given a a migration path for large companies with multiple licenses - by eliminating any future for FCP 7 before FCPX is ready for high end use they have guaranteed that many if not most of these users will move on to new platforms, and sooner rather than later. If you have ever had your core programs EOL'd, you'd know that the quicker you make the change the better off you are.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 2:15:19 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Over and over you have stated that this is a new 1.0 release and should be judged that way. It is most emphatically NOT a "new version" but rather a new application using an old name. "

You're misrepresenting my argument here. It wasn't that this transition is precisely equivalent to previous version upgrades. It was merely that Apple has pulled old versions in the past and some users have managed to keep using those old versions for a year or two without issue, so there's no reason to believe that won't be possible this time around as well.

As I've said several times, I agree that Apple should have left FCS 3 on sale, I just don't agree that the implications pulling it are quite as... apocalyptic as some are making them out to be.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

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Herb Sevush
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 2:28:41 pm

The difference is we are talking about migrating to a new application instead of upgrading an existing one.

"users have managed to keep using those old versions for a year or two without issue"

It is not enough to know I can still use my current FCP7 - I need to know for a certainty that I can add new licenses when my business needs them, and they will be updated to run on current hardware and operating systems until X is ready for my use.

"I just don't agree that the implications pulling it are quite as... apocalyptic as some are making them out to be."

Well the implications are either that Apple wants out of the broadcast market (my inference) or that they are a bunch of morons (you're inference.)

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 2:33:40 pm

[Herb Sevush] "It is not enough to know I can still use my current FCP7 - I need to know for a certainty that I can add new licenses when my business needs them, and they will be updated to run on current hardware and operating systems until X is ready for my use."

We're arguing in circles here. Again, it hasn't been uncommon in the past for certain customers to stick with old, discontinued versions for a couple of years. That's no harder this time than it has been previously.

--
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Herb Sevush
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 2:38:45 pm

Yes, it's not uncommon for someone to hold onto EOL'd software and use it for years. But what would be not only uncommon, but actually down right ridiculous, would be to think that such a person would ever buy new software from the very people that just screwed him.

End of the circle.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Ted Levy
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 4:42:51 am

What is UP with you? Only someone paid to defend a company could possibly refute all the other professionals' concerns here with such endless commitment and vigor.


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Chris Kenny
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 12:54:06 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I'll tell my gas bill that."

Has your previous software stopped working? No. Were really you going to move all of your projects to a newly rewritten NLE the first day it shipped regardless of what (remotely realistic) feature set it offered? Probably not.

This whole "Apple is screwing with my livelihood" line makes no sense if considered in even the slightest detail.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:00:36 am

your .. stoutness, is impressive chris. fair play to you.

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Ben Holmes
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:12:40 am

Aindreas - you need to chill out. You were screaming about X after the peek. Now you're screaming again. Is it possible this is another over-reaction? I worry about your health.

I see nothing wrong with a new way to edit, and FAST software. I'd like some features back. We'll see. What's the rush here?

I think Gruber makes sense, and I fail to see where he supports Apple - he even quotes Walter's rant - and let's face it, AVID were buying Walter lunch before X was announced - he was never interested in X.

If Gruber's entirely sensible suggestion for a transition happens, sounds good to me.

Ben

Edit Out Ltd
----------------------------
FCP Editor/Trainer/System Consultant
EVS/VT Supervisor for live broadcast
RED camera transfer/post
Independent Director/Producer

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/community/communitydetails/?UserStoryId=87...


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:29:54 am

No Ben, I'll stay really annoyed thanks. Enjoy your rad fast software and the best of luck to you.

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Scott Sheriff
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:09:48 am

[Chris Kenny] "Has your previous software stopped working? No. Were really you going to move all of your projects to a newly rewritten NLE the first day it shipped regardless of what (remotely realistic) feature set it offered? Probably not.

This whole "Apple is screwing with my livelihood" line makes no sense if considered in even the slightest detail."


Since you're this hours designated apple apologist, maybe you could explain what those that want or need FCS3 are supposed to do?

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com

I have a system, it has stuff in it, and stuff hooked to it. I have a camera, it can record stuff. I read the manuals, and know how to use this stuff and lots of other stuff too.
You should be suitably impressed...

"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair


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MIke Guidotti
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:12:47 am

[Scott Sheriff] "Since you're this hours designated apple apologist, maybe you could explain what those that want or need FCS3 are supposed to do?"

Cry.


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Chris Kenny
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:20:35 am

[Scott Sheriff] "Since you're this hours designated apple apologist, maybe you could explain what those that want or need FCS3 are supposed to do?"

I do think Apple probably should have continued selling FCS3 for a year or whatever to help ease the transition. But realistically, it's probably not going to be very hard for anyone who wants a copy to get one. As I pointed out in a previous post, for instance, FCP X actually is suitable for a respectable fraction of Apple's user base even now, and because it's not sold as an 'upgrade', users who migrate to it are free to sell off their copies of FCS3.

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James Houk
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 2:26:42 am

"As I pointed out in a previous post, for instance, FCP X actually is suitable for a respectable fraction of Apple's user base even now, and because it's not sold as an 'upgrade', users who migrate to it are free to sell off their copies of FCS3."


...Unless you want to ever open up your old FCP7 or earlier projects. Seeing as there is no capability to open older FCP projects... most editors are likely to hold onto their Studio 3 copies. Even if we move to Premiere or Avid those Studio 3 licenses will let us access our old projects natively, and export XMLs and such as needed.

*Sony PMW-F3 (Preordered!)
*Final Cut Studio 3


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james carey
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:35:15 am

[Chris Kenny] "Has your previous software stopped working? No. Were really you going to move all of your projects to a newly rewritten NLE the first day it shipped regardless of what (remotely realistic) feature set it offered? Probably not.
"


When they went from FCP6 to FCP7, all my projects still opened, as well they should have. Are you kidding me? Had they spent the last two years added these new features to FCP8, my projects would have opened just fine. Now i can't even share a project, nor export a EDL, nor do any of dozen obvious work flow features I have come to rely on.

Jim Carey
Director of Video, Radical Entertainment
linkedin: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jcarey256
mobygames: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,17212/


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Chris Kenny
Re: gruber constructs a carefully apple supportive line of bollocks
on Jun 23, 2011 at 3:17:46 am

[james carey] "Had they spent the last two years added these new features to FCP8"

Technically impossible. A rewrite was necessary. Apple bit the bullet and did one. It will take some time for the new app to match the old app's feature set.

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