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Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.

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Aindreas Gallagher
Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 2, 2012 at 11:02:24 pm

http://philipbloom.net/2012/09/30/cs6/

more than anything - there are two things I agree with fundamentally:

Adobe are visibly, and completely, focused on attempting to correctly perceive and enhance editing workflow to the absolute best of their abilities.
PPro 6 literally screams that it is not messing around.

Adobe are financially rock solid, and highly highly dependable as a partner over the medium term. that part can't be overstated.

-

I am also down with the moments of delight described - cracking open prelude and audition - and realising that they are tasty software. Its actual real and good new stuff. Soundtrack pro, for me at first sight, was real stuff - not direct to my limited skill set, but approachable, and reeking of usefulness.

Adobe exist to service the sometimes insanely detailed and changing needs of difficult, peripheral and choosy people - that would be the lot of us.

Adobe iterate like an attentive hammer, and in comparative terms, you could call PPro 6 a very early cycle product in terms of ambition - near to photoshop 4 almost with actions and history - early product, with heavy investment. PPro 6 = early stage Photoshop.

You can take a three decade design professional partner throwing all their editing cards on the table in terms of investment, time, development and PR, or you can plump for what is essentially a hardware sales company transitioning heavily into telecommunications, media and portable computing.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Shane Ross
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 3, 2012 at 1:07:39 am

If he's going to tell us what editing app he's going to use and endorse...let me figure out what camera I think is the best option and endorse it.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Michael Gissing
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 3, 2012 at 4:13:36 am

Although a camera man, Phillip says he has been editing for a long time. Perhaps more time editing than most editors spend behind a camera.

That said, I would be happy to hear any editors views on cameras. As someone who has done telecine, news sound & camera, sound post and grade/ online, I appreciate the viewpoint of any users who share the tools.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 3, 2012 at 10:02:22 am

LOL! Exactly - he's a professional camera tester - not an EDITOR!

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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alban egger
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 3, 2012 at 12:56:41 pm

In his initial postings about FCPX and CS6 it seemed like he had deadlines and no time to learn anything new on that side of the production.
In the long term he might regret it, because in particular in his field FCPX would prove itself extremely fast and helpful.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 3, 2012 at 2:07:42 pm

Bloom started as a news videographer. Generally folks in that role cut their own pieces, with reporters and/or producers sitting over their shoulder. As such, I would say he's as much an "editor" as most of the folks here.

His views are interesting in regards to X, because as we all seem to agree, X is precisely optimized for the news and narrative style of editing. I'm sure it's a view held by most other new videographer/editors, as I see steady adoption of PPro - over X - in these types of enterprises. Adobe Anywhere is likely to seal the deal for many.

That being said, there's very little in the video that couldn't have just as easily been said about X. The big exception is native camera codecs on the timeline (something I'm not a fan of BTW).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Gary Huff
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 3, 2012 at 2:15:10 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The big exception is native camera codecs on the timeline (something I'm not a fan of BTW)."

Yes. I just love telling a client, "Sorry, but I have to spend a few hours transcoding all this footage before I can start working on it."


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Gary Huff
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 3, 2012 at 2:17:22 pm

[alban egger] "In his initial postings about FCPX and CS6 it seemed like he had deadlines and no time to learn anything new on that side of the production."

Or maybe he just doesn't want to fight the timeline in order to edit the way he wants?


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Shawn Miller
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 3, 2012 at 5:50:26 pm

[Shane Ross] "If he's going to tell us what editing app he's going to use and endorse...let me figure out what camera I think is the best option and endorse it."

[Shane Ross]"LOL! Exactly - he's a professional camera tester - not an EDITOR!"

FYI

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2423275/

Shawn



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Michael Sanders
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 3, 2012 at 8:25:55 pm

Personally I don't care what Philip Bloom - or for that matter Walter Murch - has to say. I don't think he (that is PB) is much more than an ardent (and very good) self publicist.

I've been editing 25 years since news was cut on machine to machine Betacam suites, I know what works for me and I know how I work. So I'll make my own decisions about what I'll use - and I suggest the rest of you do the same.

Like everyone else I'm not sure about Apple's direction but I do think there's a lot more to FCP X than a lot of people believe.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 3, 2012 at 10:44:00 pm

[Michael Sanders] "Personally I don't care what Philip Bloom - or for that matter Walter Murch - has to say. I don't think he (that is PB) is much more than an ardent (and very good) self publicist. "

I like hearing what other people have to say because it may provide a perspective or a nugget of information that I hadn't experienced and/or thought of. Ultimately how I choose to operate depends on my needs but I do enjoy reading up and/or talking with other people to see what their experiences are like compared to my own.




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Michael Gissing
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 3, 2012 at 11:05:42 pm

Any editor who works in collaborative workflows involving other facilities must take note of what trends are doing. If you are an editor that does the lot in house then a lassez-faire attitude is acceptable.

If any editor decides to use editing software that is incompatible with workflows in my post finishing facility then they don't get much sympathy from me if they are forced to buy third party software to get something off their system. I am all for editors choosing the tool that suits their style but knowing what systems are becoming poular or even market dominant is just sensible business practice.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 3:18:55 am

[Michael Gissing] "If any editor decides to use editing software that is incompatible with workflows in my post finishing facility then they don't get much sympathy from me if they are forced to buy third party software to get something off their system."

How many Pr projects have you received and how did you receive them?

What system did you use for finish?

Jeremy


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Michael Gissing
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 4:47:06 am

[Jeremy Garchow]"How many Pr projects have you received and how did you receive them?
What system did you use for finish?"

I will be getting my first Pr projects in a few months as a few clients are in the process of transition to CS6 and I am currently building a new computer to run CS6 and daVinci.

Up until now I have only had clients on FCP7 and AVID so I have used FCP7 & AutoDuck. It is precisely the amount of feedback publicly & privately that has let me know that CS6 is the best progression for me after FCP7. I will keep FCP7 running for the many clients that are not yet shifting. So far the only ones to shift have been to CS6 and a few to AVID. Nearly all AVID clients also have CS6 and can supply me an AAF for da Vinci and titles & sundries in a Pr timeline for the final online and playout to HDCam.

Still not one person asking for FCPX. If someone does, I will be requesting that they create an AAF/OMF for audio and XML for da Vinci.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 4:52:40 am

[Michael Gissing] "Nearly all AVID clients also have CS6 and can supply me an AAF for da Vinci and titles & sundries in a Pr timeline for the final online and playout to HDCam. "

All I can say is, test the crap out of it if you need to keep a clip based workflow.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 5:30:11 am

Thanks Jeremy. I know there are AVID to da Vinci workflow issues. One reason for building the machine now and getting the software soon is to have lots of time to get up to speed with Pr as a finalising timeline & various workflows between Pr & da Vinci, especially with legacy FCP and AVID in the mix.

I am hoping Pr continues to be a general conversion toolkit and with Wes from AutoDuck in the Adobe house I am hoping that a viable FCPX to Pr workflow may also be possible eventually. With the move to CS6 it makes better sense to switch to a self build WIN7 solution for me. I can get so much better bang for buck, particularly the NVIDIA cards. Getting FCPX and having a dual boot with Legacy seems like such a hassle. If FCP 7 to Pr is reliable enough I may sell the MacPro to a colleague who is mid stream on a feature and his mac died so he is after a MacPro with FCP7.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 2:23:45 pm

[Michael Gissing] "I know there are AVID to da Vinci workflow issues. One reason for building the machine now and getting the software soon is to have lots of time to get up to speed with Pr as a finalising timeline & various workflows between Pr & da Vinci, especially with legacy FCP and AVID in the mix. "

I say this with all due respect to Adobe as they are trying, but interchange needs a lot of help. It's not easy, it is sometimes downright confusing, and there are many many times were it just doesn't work. It really depends on your source material. If your projects are like any of mine, that usually means a bunch of differing formats these days due to the amount of differing camera formats that are used on any given production.

Some people have taken to simply exporting flat files and letting DaVinci sort out the cuts. That might be fine, but it's very difficult for my particular needs to work like that.

I do have full confidence that Adobe will shore this up. I will say FCPX to Davinci and back is 95% easier. I am not saying this as someone who likes the direction of FCPX, I am saying this as someone who needs to get these kinds of workflows done.

Just be careful when importing XMLs in to Pr. It dupes all the media instances, and if you delete the wrong copy from the Browser, it deletes the clips on the timeline. Test, test, test and find the limitations. There are many.

Jeremy


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 6:07:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I say this with all due respect to Adobe as they are trying, but interchange needs a lot of help."

There's the rub. Collaborative workflows are weak outside of the Adobe ecosystem. Heck, even weak within. XMLs and AAFs are often wrong or at least don't work whereas FCP 7 XMLs and Avid AAFs do work as expected. The big wrinkle is Adobe's move towards native media mixed on the same timeline. Great as long as every other app work the same way and can track media in the same manner when TC is absence. That's why there's no real Premiere-SpeedGrade roundtrip yet. I've had EDL problems in the past as well. Audio track configuration still seems unnecessarily difficult for now, compared with FCP 7, FCP X or Avid. Double-system sound workflows are still very problematic.

The real issue is sharing sequences between editors. Import a sequence from Editors A's project into Editor B's and you get duplicate master clips that cannot be removed, even if both editors already have identical master clips to start with.

So far these are deal-breakers for me that have me staying in the X/7/MC camp.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 10:18:10 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The real issue is sharing sequences between editors."

I'm boosting PPro 6 in a bloodthirsty fashion, (although I do feel it looks right) - the current after effects style, one project at a time, and all the file problems associated with that, gives me a little pause - still - are we going to talk at all about the adobe anywhere demo? Isn't that a gigantic shoe dropping? in 6-9 months?

devil's advocate Oliver: if you had to pick an editing platform over a three year horizon, given the two companies behaviour - would you pick PPro, or FCPX?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Michael Gissing
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 10:34:33 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "devil's advocate Oliver: if you had to pick an editing platform over a three year horizon, given the two companies behaviour -would you pick PPro, or FCPX?"

Truth is that FCP 7 died before lots of little niggles got fixed.

FCPX vs Adobe for fixing things is for me a no brainer. Adobe are the horse I am backing for the next three years as they only need to continue a development trend that seems focussed and user driven. Apple have their eye on other things and more basic design philosophy issues that make me wary.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 10:35:24 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "devil's advocate Oliver: if you had to pick an editing platform over a three year horizon, given the two companies behaviour - would you pick PPro, or FCPX?"

Apple and FCP X.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 10:50:29 pm

you would pick a company, utterly focused on tablets, a slightly smaller tablet, phones, music sales, media sales, televisions(?), television boxes, laptops and the retail sales for all these things within its retail stores numbering in the hundreds -

- over a company of thirty years standing that owes its entire existence, uninterrupted, to the patronage of print design, media, online and video editing professionals?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 11:57:50 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "you would pick a company, utterly focused on tablets, a slightly smaller tablet, phones, music sales, media sales, televisions(?), television boxes, laptops and the retail sales for all these things within its retail stores numbering in the hundreds -
- over a company of thirty years standing that owes its entire existence, uninterrupted, to the patronage of print design, media, online and video editing professionals?"


Awww, see, now you're taking it personally ;-) You asked for a choice, so I gave you an answer. Reality is that the question sets up a false choice. I don't view it as A or A. If I don't like the way FCP X is headed, I go with Avid. Or heck, maybe in three years we'll all be running Windows 8 and Lightworks.

As a point of reference, I know some of the folks on the inside of most of these companies and they all want to deliver great products. They also understand our needs a lot better than many here give them credit for. The fact that ProApps exists at all tells me there's a commitment there. I also see that what Adobe has done with Premiere and the Creative Cloud is a way of spreading out the risk. Their big money is certainly not in these apps. The bottom line is that neither company lives or dies by the success of their video editing software.

So does history repeats itself? No idea, but I do get the sense that Apple is playing the long game on this one.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 12:23:13 am

Frankly, I'm shocked. Well, not really. You've really been running FCX through the paces, so I should have seen the writing on the wall there. So, I guess not shocked. FCX is perfect for many many things, and might be just what you need for your workflows.

Personally, I like companies that focus on my needs. I thought the ProApps division did at one time, but they dismissed quite a bit of my needs, as we are the 2%. So I will go where they still care about the 2%. And still realize that tape does indeed exist.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 12:44:45 am

[Shane Ross] "Frankly, I'm shocked. Well, not really. You've really been running FCX through the paces, so I should have seen the writing on the wall there. So, I guess not shocked. FCX is perfect for many many things, and might be just what you need for your workflows."

I've cut every project for the last few months using X. The exception has been a few legacy 7 projects. Most of these have been long-form corporate pieces or regional commercial campaigns shot with Alexa, Sony F3, RED, C300 and/or HDSLRs. Aside from cutting in X, these jobs have involved extensive mixing and grading within the application, as well as sending files out to ProTools mixers and Baselight colorists. So, obviously I have a bit more of a comfort factor with it.

I don't like everything. I wish it had tracks. I wish audio editing and mixing were better. Right now I'm not sure I'd want to cut feature on it, but I certainly wouldn't count it out either. I'm waiting for Smoke to settle in with a final, release version. That has interest for me, because I see pretty good synergy with FCP X, Smoke and Resolve.

[Shane Ross] "I thought the ProApps division did at one time, but they dismissed quite a bit of my needs,"

And Avid and Adobe haven't ?! Do you REALLY like the Title Tool? Is that "cutting edge"? How about the mediocre color correction tools in Symphony or the long-in-the-tooth effects controls?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 12:49:22 am

[Oliver Peters] "Do you REALLY like the Title Tool? Is that "cutting edge"?"

Oh, snap...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Lawrence
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 5:36:41 am

[Oliver Peters] "Do you REALLY like the Title Tool? Is that "cutting edge"?"

I wasn't impressed with the title tool when I first looked at it, but lately I've found it pretty useful -- only not for titles. The pen and and various shape tools are a pretty handy way to generate custom mattes.

For titling, I've been using Titler Pro from NewBlueFX. It's very powerful and works on all platforms. I really like it. Free demo if you want to check it out.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 12:44:14 pm

[David Lawrence] "I wasn't impressed with the title tool when I first looked at it, but lately I've found it pretty useful -- only not for titles. The pen and and various shape tools are a pretty handy way to generate custom mattes."

I was talking about Avid's Title Tool. Were you referring to Adobe's? If so, it's leaps and bounds ahead of Avid's. There is Avid Marquee, too, which not that many editors use, from what I can tell. It's pretty unintuitive.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Lawrence
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 5:02:59 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I was talking about Avid's Title Tool. Were you referring to Adobe's? If so, it's leaps and bounds ahead of Avid's. There is Avid Marquee, too, which not that many editors use, from what I can tell. It's pretty unintuitive."

Yes, I was talking about Adobe's. You're absolutely right about Avid's.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 12:41:11 am

[Oliver Peters] "Awww, see, now you're taking it personally"

hah - sure, I play a heartfealt instrument - and that by design.

but oliver, i find it near impossible to believe that you cannot form a basic value judgement in this situation.

FCPX is near mangled as a concept and completely unused by people who are paid or pay for editing.

Again, and read it closer - FCPX is near statistically unused by people who pay or are paid for the practise of editing. I am comfortable on this point in my hemisphere.

- and this is not a new well put together up and comer in 1999,

it is 2012 - and FCPX is a quite the joke: is it primary? secondary? how do roles work? who came up with this stuff? how do connected clips work? when are the connections made? how do I change the connections? Why did the editing system begin to assert child parent connection in the first place? why is the colour corrector square? why am I parroting meaningless tosh?

Why did apple glom reductive metaphors on top of the essential functions of editing and call it FCP?

Why did they pour consumer imovie gloop over the horribly tricky and fidgety craft of editing? and in the process burning out tracks, necessary conflicts - the lot.

Why could apple not make two products? why take us all to moron town? Is that the apple crossroads?

Oliver and here I mean this: You are actually willing to go with this mess? Seriously? you go with this stuff?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 1:39:14 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Again, and read it closer - FCPX is near statistically unused by people who pay or are paid for the practise of editing. I am comfortable on this point in my hemisphere."

I don't believe you really have anything other than personal, anecdotal info to go on. In any case, I believe that Apple is in a 5-year long rebuilding mode. That's just me reading the tea leaves. Their push is through education and then upward. Remember that FCP "legacy" was viewed as a joke by most "pros" until around FCP 3.0.

But in the end, I don't care. I have MC, FCP7, PProCS6 on my machine. I know those tools. If I need them, I can use them. Do they really inspire me anymore? Not really. For now, Apple is lacking that "Cold Mountain" moment for FCP X, but it will come.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Why did apple glom reductive metaphors on top of the essential functions of editing and call it FCP?"

I'm not sure everyone agrees with you on that. Personally I like about half of what they've done, but for now, that half is good enough to keep me interested. That portion is primarily the organizational tools and features like skimming. I can do things like play QT refs of the BMCC 2.5K stills in real-time. Not possible in PPro or FCP7. I can run ALEXA ProRes4444 files with unrendered LUT filters in real-time without the system crashing. No LUTs available for PPro or MC and this will routinely crash FCP7.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "You are actually willing to go with this mess?"

Sure. For instance, I do a lot of color correction inside an NLE. I feel that I have already been able to do better grades with X (in spite of the wonky color board) than I have in Symphony, Media Composer, FCP 7, etc. There's no workflow yet, but actual image quality and the result of the grade is better.

For me, the next update will be important. I think it will also be a turning point for the industry. Either more interest in X or completing the turn away.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 10:02:48 pm

[Oliver Peters] "That portion is primarily the organizational tools and features like skimming."

ok - I have, on a reasonably honest level now, with my quids in paid for FCPX, played about.

a few things - do you have any problems with all the tags and events exposing into the one window? do you miss multiple bins on a second monitor? this feels dangerously like a name drop, but say I have, due to unusual circumstances, been cutting a thirty second TV advert destined for your good nation, for a major sports company's software product the last week - it involves transitions through various rooms. It is literally an edit of rooms. needless to say, those rooms have bins.

so - I cannot get how some people are willing to completely forgo the visual and cognitive importance of multiple bins containing postcard video picons (or list) - nicely arranged on a second screen - not to mention the continuous re-arrangement of them onscreen as reminders and thought process. The physical call to a bin, tossing it to the left or right, tapping something on top of it - I cannot see how this is not fundamentally important to the internal process of recall and prioritisation. how this is improved by transplanting tags intended for semantic word search into visuals, which by definition demand a spatial scenario to delineate them - given we do this on the timeline to begin with - given we spatially organise on the timeline, how stupid were apple to decide that spatial organisation in the preparation of the edit, in the form of objects to be fundamentally delineated and categorised in containers - how did they decide this was old hat?

further on - do you have problems with the need to twirl down the clips, repeatedly, to see the sub selections? Or do you work mostly in filmstrip mode> how can anyone in existence do that outside an apple demo?

Do you have problems with the actual GUI size of the elements? I find for instance the basic type choice too large - the available screen real estate in the single viewable bin area, the one bin, on a laptop strikes me as ludicrous. its designed for minimum use case scenarios. I see a quarter of the attributes I saw in FCP7.

do you find the timeline clip lozenges far too vertical and compressed at mid zoom? Do you find it easy to perceive the clip relationships at mid zoom? Do you find the reaction on current top spec hardware unsatisfactory when lifting and repositioning clips? do you find the drop shadows and dissolve delete animations gratuitous and counter productive?


[Oliver Peters] " I feel that I have already been able to do better grades with X "

no arguments here to a point. the power masks are superlative, and make a mockery of all other editing systems. Avid, I now realise, hasn't even geometrics as a native attribute, and the application of effects, where you are made dive inside them, in russian doll fashion - is a joke for the ages.

however effects raises an important point -which is that it is largely based on motion, and interesting as that may be, it is the sony connect music service of graphics and motion design applications.

which is to say that all of its innovations, its behaviours, its layer and timeline dichotomy, while interesting, are of no use to anyone - because no one, since 1910 has been employed to drive motion. I have always felt that apple's adherence to a completely insignificant application that no one will ever care about in their professional lives is a mark of a sony style inward view. they don't care that no one cares.

have you tried curves in premiere? they are curves.

anyway -

Oliver mate - I am down with you being up for FCPX, but, god as ever I am here to kick its shins. It just feels intellectually sloppy and inattentive to the craft to me - sure, they're iterating now, they're a little red faced, but I find that I have decided that FCPX, in all of its chrome heavy, process stupid glory is about as important to me or anyone as motion ever was.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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John Davidson
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 11:12:46 pm

I don't think a single one of these points or questions (I'm not sure what they are - I lose all comprehension after the sixth comma in a sentence) are actual inhibitors to workflow on a daily basis.
The real annoyances we encounter are:
-No love for the primary
-No easy match framing from a keyword tag to source
-Compound clips don't extend past their original point even if source on it has room
-The little effects animation thingee on the upper left of a clip is accidentally clicked far too often
-no draggable effects from the inspector
-no quick and easy way to make customized transitions without going into Motion
-keyword sets don't load with a selected event
-roles sets can't be saved and loaded
-Project view is too big and clunky
-folders aren't movable between drives in project view
-broken apart audio doesn't have an easy out of sync warning
-can't copy compound clips back to event
-can't copy metadata from one clip to another (for example if we received a color corrected version of a show that we've already key tagged)
-generators data doesn't copy into an even (like with slates built with Motion)

These would be much more useful things to complain about, IMHO.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 6, 2012 at 12:11:20 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "do you miss multiple bins on a second monitor?"

Thus far I have been running X on either a system with dual 20" monitors or a single 30". I prefer dual and X supports that. So for me, events are on the left and viewer/timeline on the right. I manually remove any unnecessary events (inactive jobs) from the FC Events folder and typically have all footage in one event. Then I use keyword collections like bins with subclips. I never work in icon view - list only. The exception is if the event/collection only contains stills. I like the "filmstrip" that results, which can be spread across most of the top of the left monitor. This is useful if you have a clip with several repeated takes in the same clip. By arrowing-down and skimming, I can very quickly view successive clips in a keyword collection. Then I use "rejects" and "favorites" as I go. Typically I set the view to "hide rejected".

[Aindreas Gallagher] "The physical call to a bin, tossing it to the left or right, tapping something on top of it - I cannot see how this is not fundamentally important to the internal process of recall and prioritisation. how this is improved by transplanting tags intended for semantic word search into visuals,"

While I used to work that way, too, most of the time in FCP 7, I opened bins as tabs. Now with MC6 and higher, Avid is also moving to tabs.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "further on - do you have problems with the need to twirl down the clips, repeatedly, to see the sub selections? Or do you work mostly in filmstrip mode"

I do work in the filmstrip mode, but you have to twirl open list clips, too. Don't like that and hope it gets improved. However, if you are twirling the disclosure open to simply show "favorite" selections, an alternate approach is to use a smart collection that gets populated with your "favorites" as you go.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Do you have problems with the actual GUI size of the elements?......do you find the timeline clip lozenges far too vertical and compressed at mid zoom?"

Yes. Some streamlining would be nice. I think we covered a lot of that in David's track thread. If I could choose, I would go with an FCP 7 timeline structure inside X, even if nothing else changed.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "however effects raises an important point -which is that it is largely based on motion, and interesting as that may be, it is the sony connect music service of graphics and motion design applications."

Sure. Clearly there's a template mentality. But honestly that's about all most editors can handle. Why do you think MB Looks is so popular? I find that many of the effects don't really play well in FCP X. Most of the freebees people have built - all based on the templates - perform far better than most of the paid choices. That's one of the reasons I see good synergy with Smoke. X for most people and for creative cutting - Smoke as the "finishing" system after picture lock on X.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "have you tried curves in premiere? they are curves."

Yes, although I don't like the way their regular color correctors work. You can run Nattress curves in X which covers that base if you need to. I like Irudis Tonalizer a lot and the combination of that, plus the color board turns out some really nice work. I would expect to see Baselight come to X in the future, which might be the best way to go for serious work without bouncing out to Resolve.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "but I find that I have decided that FCPX, in all of its chrome heavy, process stupid glory is about as important to me or anyone as motion ever was"

Sure, I get that. It's a bit of a gamble. I know the other tools, so it's not like time spent in X takes away from learning something else. OTOH, if X catches on better than you think it will, it's a wise investment to learn it and be ahead of the curve. As far as Motion - yes I agree. I much prefer to work in AE when I need to do something complex. But I also know others who simply can't wrap their head around AE or even Photoshop for that matter.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 6, 2012 at 1:45:51 pm

good god oliver you are infuriatingly rational and measured. its not on.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 6, 2012 at 2:47:03 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "good god oliver you are infuriatingly rational and measured. its not on."

LOL. It's only because I type sober! ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 6, 2012 at 5:35:57 pm

hey hey - that was sober ranting peters - drunk is a lot more incoherent.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 6:00:31 am

Aindreas, are you EVER going to let it go

Steve Connor
'It's just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 1:19:07 pm

if the world economy falls, and the cow crumbles, I will spend the last of my savings to run and host this forum, just so I can occasionally come back and kick FCPX in the shins. I would plan on doing this until retirement age.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Herb Sevush
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 2:36:00 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "if the world economy falls, and the cow crumbles, I will spend the last of my savings to run and host this forum, just so I can occasionally come back and kick FCPX in the shins. I would plan on doing this until retirement age."

An example of moderation in all things. Bravo.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Mark Raudonis
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 2:11:58 pm

" why take us all to moron town?"

That made me laugh!

Mark



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tony west
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 5, 2012 at 3:03:55 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "devil's advocate Oliver: if you had to pick an editing platform over a three year horizon, given the two companies behaviour - would you pick PPro, or FCPX?"

I would pick X also Aindreas and heres ONE reason why,

the "pile on effect"

Look, like it or not makers of plug-ins and editing tools have decided that X is worth investing in.

It seems like every week another product that can be used in X hits the market.

It's like a snowball rolling down a hill. As people like fxfactory, iZotope RX and others keep piling on, a person like me who uses X benefits.

Have you used Neatvideo? A great product for fixing gain in video. Walter M's timeline was interesting for me to look at but at the end of the day, if somebody hands me a gained-out video I just need to fix it.

(I hate to throw this in there but) the Iphone benefits from all these people piling on making apps for it so THEY can get paid.

The "pile on effect"

All these makers see a money train for them coming down the track and they want to get aboard.
They would be crazy not to. This is how they get paid.

You know as well as I do that much of client work is a person coming in and saying " I saw this spot and they did this or that. Can you create that look?"

Most of the time you will be able to create the same look because you are using a product from the SAME manufacture.

Yes, they make these tools for PPro and others also but they don't leave out X
We will all end up with much of the same tools and it will come down to which NLE you just prefer to use them with.

I said this from the beginning and I"m saying it now. X (along with making their own improvements) is going to benefit from other people's self interest. And so am I.

I enjoy reading your post btw : )


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Walter Soyka
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 2:11:04 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "devil's advocate Oliver: if you had to pick an editing platform over a three year horizon, given the two companies behaviour - would you pick PPro, or FCPX?"

This is a really tough question, Aindreas.

Oliver brought up the long game. I could make an argument for or against the long game for every one of the A's:

Avid plays stability over the long game, with bin compatibility going all the way back. Avid has a very dedicated user base, and there are some kinds of work where Avid is the best choice by a mile. They have a mixed hardware/software approach to the business and are the go-to provider for collaborative editing.

However, Avid's target audience is limited and shrinking as a proportion of the total production pie, Media Composer is arguably limited by its legacy, and Avid itself is in a perilous financial position. They don't seem to be growing their user base much, if at all, and they have let some advanced systems like DS languish for years.

Autodesk seems very serious about Smoke 2013 -- so serious, that they've done something that they practically never do: pre-announced features. They do this for internal bookkeeping reasons; when they pre-announce anything, they must defer all revenue on the product until they deliver everything they announced. They don't do this for Max, Maya, or XSI; they don't do this for AutoCAD.

They are also clearly putting serious engineering resources behind Smoke 2013, both in porting to the Mac in the first place and now in re-inventing the product's workflow.

However, they face an uphill battle in adoption. Though Smoke has a well-deserved reputation for speed, flexibility, and quality, Autodesk is classically a niche player in the NLE space. They are offering a premium product that will retail at 11.67x the cost of FCPX; they need to convince some portion of mass-market editors that the cost and learning curve will be worth it.

Apple has tarnished their reputation among pros over the last few years, but might be starting to turn it back around with FCPX. The pace of development has been pretty rapid, and a lot of the early objections to FCPX are no longer valid. On a long enough horizon, they may have a good shot at recapturing editorial market share by getting young editors today who will be senior editors several years from now. FCPX offers some unique and powerful features not found elsewhere, especially in the area of organization.

However, FCPX is still an incomplete product, and Magic 8-Ball says the future here is hazy. Will Apple's long game for FCPX look more like FCP Legend, with a long development and adoption curve, or more like Aperture with front-loaded development and adoption? Could Apple's penchant for thinking different and keeping it simple stupid, in combination with the fragmenting post production market, largely consign FCPX to smaller shops with little interchange or less attractive, lower-margin work?

Adobe is doing a wonderful job of listening and responding to customer feedback, and Premiere Pro looks like a wonderful choice for track-loving FCP refugees. Premiere Pro offers familiarity, and with good hardware, Premiere is a nice, high-performance option. Native workflows are a breath of fresh air for some who would have been tasked with hours or days of transcoding on a Legend workflow. There's a lot of adjacent power with software like Audition, Photoshop and After Effects in the Creative Suite, and many editors already own licenses for Premiere by virtue of their Creative Suite bundles. Adobe Anywhere is an amazingly promising technology that may well make Adobe the player to beat in collaborative facilities of all sizes.

However, suite-wide integration isn't complete. While there's a lot of potential with SpeedGrade, there's currently no project interchange. Dynamic Link with After Effects is very cool, but does not perform like FCPX/M5. Premiere's media management is a delicate flower and they offer no standard intermediate codec of their own. Adobe has pulled Premiere from the Mac platform in the past, and they currently benefit most from NVIDIA technologies that are ill-supported on the Mac platform.

We've jiggled many electrons on this forum discussing how it's wonderful to be an editor with all these choices on the market today. There's a flipside to this: there's no one, clear, compelling general-purpose choice. The notion of picking a single platform and committing to it for three years is tough, because no matter which one you pick, you'll be leaving something on the table with respect to the other options.

Ironically, I currently see stodgy old Avid and creative disruptor Apple to be very similar in terms of their rigidity: they are each offering products with a specific philosophy and more or less sticking to it. I currently see Autodesk and Adobe as the more pliant pair, bending their products to suit a changing market. As always, the question of vendor comes back to how well they meet your specific needs.

If I had to pick one and only one, I'd be Team Adobe as I couldn't do my work without Photoshop, Illustrator, and After Effects.

I don't think I have the luxury of picking one and only one, though. Premiere Pro is the best overall fit for me and my work now, and it's far from perfect and I have a feature request list a mile long. All the As still show enormous potential, but I can't afford to think that far out; I have to go with the best solution today, and I have to be willing to change my mind about what that may be tomorrow (just as I did when dropping FCP Legend and adding PCs).

I'm keeping my eye on FCPX, because I'll need to know it if my clients start adopting it. I started learning Smoke on the 2012 version and immediately shifted gears to Smoke 2013 after NAB because I am enamored with the fast-turnaround, single-app workflow, and I love the idea of having a real 3D compositor in my NLE. Premiere Pro is the best pick for me now, and with reams of great user feedback and some strong original thinking of their own, Adobe has the ability to make that product even better. Lance has piqued my interest with Vegas, so now that I'm running Macs and PCs, I can actually consider a PC-only editor.

TL;DR -- "May you live in interesting times" sounds like a blessing, but it's really a curse.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 2:37:44 pm

[Walter Soyka] "If I had to pick one and only one, I'd be Team Adobe as I couldn't do my work without Photoshop, Illustrator, and After Effects."

I think this decision comes down to the type of editor you are - as in - editor/mogrx or mogrx/editor. If your primary focus is animation/design/compositing/graphics, then the CS6 package is the best of the lot. If your main focus is wading through lots of story, then it's up for grabs. FCP X is a very incomplete package unless you just really "get" Motion (and assuming some new, future integration with Logic). I've done a lot of jobs with X and for what I do, I still rely on FCP7/FCS (plus various utilities) to fill in workflow gaps.

Tony talked about the "pile on" effect, but in a way that's actually better in the Adobe world. For instance, if you use both FCP X and After Effects, you are generally stuck buying two sets of plug-ins. If you stay with Premiere/After Effects, then many of the AE plug-ins also work in Premiere. The bottom line is that in this scenario, your total cost is lower. Naturally, if you pull AE/Pshop out of the equation, that's not true, but a lot of us simply can't work that way.

There are two things to watch for:

1) I think the next X update will be a watershed. A lot of decisions are riding on that. If it gives back some of the "lost" legacy features, more editors and shops will shift that way.

2) Each company needs a new "Cold Mountain" moment. We think Apple doesn't care about the effect of this any longer, but that's not true. Likewise, Adobe tries to make hay with feature film use of AE and blur the line through omission that these same films were NOT cut with Premiere. But that will change, once some high-visibility film gets cut with either X or PPro.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 3:22:12 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I think this decision comes down to the type of editor you are - as in - editor/mogrx or mogrx/editor."

Agree 100%.

If you're doing straight editorial, I think FCPX is a strong contender. FCPX would have been a great fit for the creative editorial I was doing 8 or 10 years ago. If I were doing that sort of work today, I'd be all over it.

I do take some pains to point out that I'm not doing creative editorial daily like most here, and that last post of mine would have been a great place for my graphics-first disclaimer. I don't see FCPX helping me much in the more design-driven work I tend to do today.


[Oliver Peters] "FCP X is a very incomplete package unless you just really "get" Motion (and assuming some new, future integration with Logic)."

Motion has some fun and cool features, and I want the FCPX/M5 integration for Pr/Ae.

Having used Motion for years, my position on it may become my position on FCPX, too: high floor, low ceiling. It's easy to get to 80%, but it's hard to take the 80% to 100%. Contrast with Ae, which has a low floor and a high ceiling. It's harder to get to 80%, but easier to take the 80% to 100%.

(Cue the Nuke and Flame folks to point out that by 100%, I mean 95%...)


[Oliver Peters] "I think the next X update will be a watershed. A lot of decisions are riding on that. If it gives back some of the "lost" legacy features, more editors and shops will shift that way."

I feel the same about Adobe Anywhere. If they can really make collaboration work, I think they stand to take huge share in big boutiques and small facilities -- especially since these already rely on Adobe products for graphics and other non-video content.


[Oliver Peters] "Each company needs a new "Cold Mountain" moment. We think Apple doesn't care about the effect of this any longer, but that's not true. Likewise, Adobe tries to make hay with feature film use of AE and blur the line through omission that these same films were NOT cut with Premiere. But that will change, once some high-visibility film gets cut with either X or PPro."

Adobe also likes to talk about films that use Premiere for tasks other than editorial (pre-vis and VFX). The thing I take away from that is that Adobe has already gotten their editor onto a job that would have otherwise been MC. If Adobe nails collaboration and media management, as well as correcting some of the niggling UI shortcomings that have been universally feature-requested, I think they can really compete with Avid for feature films.

The question for me here is to what degree Apple is thinking about collaboration. If they are sticking to their traditional approach of individual empowerment, larger-scale integrations will continue to be a challenge. If they have a competitor for Adobe Anywhere hidden up their sleeves, the collaborative space will really heat up.

As it stands, collaboration may be the line that fragments editorial. If Apple stays focused on individuals and one-man bands, and Adobe becomes more focused on collaboration and teams, we may end up with a natural detente.

As interchange options continue to improve with Apple, I think FCPX may well make an outstanding offline NLE. As interchange options continue to improve with Adobe, I think Creative Suite may well make an outstanding finishing system. Work cut on FCPX and finished on Adobe or Autodesk seems like a good flow to me.

To that end, perhaps the choice of NLE doesn't matter that much at all...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 4:12:53 pm

[Walter Soyka] "To that end, perhaps the choice of NLE doesn't matter that much at all.."

That's where I'm at right now. The trouble is that it makes predictable workflows hard to create and implement across a team of different editors (people).

One thing I do applaud Apple for is starting with a clean slate. We may not all agree, but if you read any of the issues posted on the various Avid forums (CCow, Avid-L2, Community, etc.) you see a lot of problems caused by cobbling one feature onto another. Even though they recoded it as 64-bit, there's still a lot of legacy junk there. Things like behaviors working unpredictably when Smart Tools is engage or not.

Apple avoided that with X, but is obviously suffering the negatives from that approach, too.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 4:38:53 pm

[Oliver Peters] "One thing I do applaud Apple for is starting with a clean slate. We may not all agree, but if you read any of the issues posted on the various Avid forums (CCow, Avid-L2, Community, etc.) you see a lot of problems caused by cobbling one feature onto another. Even though they recoded it as 64-bit, there's still a lot of legacy junk there. Things like behaviors working unpredictably when Smart Tools is engage or not."

I think your combining 2 different things here. You can start with a fresh slate when re-coding for 64 bit but that does not require a total re-conceptualization of the basic software. PPro showed how this could be done - new code, additional features to take advantage of 64 bit and a GUI that builds on but does not throw out the original. Avid has obviously not gone far enough, and for many Apple has gone way too far.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 5:12:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "You can start with a fresh slate when re-coding for 64 bit but that does not require a total re-conceptualization of the basic software."

Here's more failed car analogies:

You can put a bigger, faster, more powerful engine in any car, but it doesn't make that car more aerodynamic. It will be faster through brute force, but not by better design.

[Herb Sevush] "and for many Apple has gone way too far."

I disagree here. One of the problems with X is that it is "incomplete". I think X hasn't gone far enough.

Some of the things are simply fantastic. The Multicam setup window is by far one of my favorite features. Easy, powerful, helpful. Mutlicam editing (or really, multitrack audio editing) isn't up to snuff, but all the multicam preparation is pretty f*cking good. Just like FCPX itself, the extremely powerful organizational and database capabilities are really really good, but some of the finer editing tools aren't quite there yet. I think Adobe has the opposite problem, with CS6 the editing is much better, but the organization and tracking of footage is particularly rugged, at least in my opinion. Which one is harder to fix and update? The back end or the front end?

If a person hangs around in FCPX enough, you can see where it's going, but there's a lot of functionality that could be much better that simply isn't available today. It is this types of shortcomings that have cause a lot of pros to simply reject the software and call it an absolute failure of design.

The other people who like what they see and can see the longer throw will say that it is a work in progress and it's just not quite there yet. I, for one, want to see Apple go much further and they haven't gone too far at all.

Jeremy


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Herb Sevush
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 6:45:56 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Here's more failed car analogies:
You can put a bigger, faster, more powerful engine in any car, but it doesn't make that car more aerodynamic. It will be faster through brute force, but not by better design."


Since I'm always up for car analogies (sorry Franz), for me X is like being told that in order to use this great new aerodynamic body I'm going to have to learn to steer with my feet and break with my hands. It's not that there's any connection between the new body styling and the new steering mechanism, it's just that since they were rebuilding the car from scratch they figured there had to be a better way to handle the driving interface, which hadn't really changed in over a hundred years. Now I'm not saying it's impossible to drive "pedestrally", but I will have to be convinced that the aerodynamics that I do want is worth the new steering that I have little use for. In the meantime I will be looking out for a car with great aerodynamics and a steering wheel that I can get my hands on.


[Jeremy Garchow] "The Multicam setup window is by far one of my favorite features. Easy, powerful, helpful. Mutlicam editing (or really, multitrack audio editing) isn't up to snuff, but all the multicam preparation is pretty f*cking good."

Yes, it looks very capable and when/if they make editing with multicam as powerful as they have made the multicam setup, I will have to try steering with my feet.

[Jeremy Garchow] "If a person hangs around in FCPX enough, you can see where it's going, but there's a lot of functionality that could be much better that simply isn't available today. It is this types of shortcomings that have cause a lot of pros to simply reject the software and call it an absolute failure of design."

I think it's part missing features but it's also partly X's rejection of tracks, and it doesn't matter how many features they add I believe there will be many editors who will refuse to edit in a non tracked environment.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 8:54:02 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I think it's part missing features but it's also partly X's rejection of tracks, and it doesn't matter how many features they add I believe there will be many editors who will refuse to edit in a non tracked environment."

Again, I disagree. I think that the metaphor is incomplete in FCPX, that is to say, that there isn't quite a full track replacement mechanism in place, even though I believe one has certainly been started. What is needed is a few of the advantages tracks offer (free standing clips, visual organization, etc). In my opinion, this could be done without tracks and still keep a modern approach to an editing interface. So while might say the professional rejection has occurred because of the loss of tracks, I would say it has occurred because the track replacement isn't fully developed.

As far as the car analogies, I see what you're saying, I just don't find it that radially different in the sense that, I don't feel like I have to relearn editing, I'm still editing in FCPX just as I am still driving in a car.

I also didn't know we the collective editing community has been using computers for 100 years. That's a new one on me!


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Herb Sevush
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:29:17 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " I think that the metaphor is incomplete in FCPX, that is to say, that there isn't quite a full track replacement mechanism in place, even though I believe one has certainly been started. What is needed is a few of the advantages tracks offer (free standing clips, visual organization, etc)."

I've seen nothing from Apple to indicate that this is true, although as has often been stated, on these matters Apple follows the Tao -- "he who speaks does not know, he who knows, does not speak." I will believe it when I see it.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I also didn't know we the collective editing community has been using computers for 100 years. That's a new one on me!"

It's been a hundred years in dog years.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:46:39 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I've seen nothing from Apple to indicate that this is true, although as has often been stated, on these matters Apple follows the Tao -- "he who speaks does not know, he who knows, does not speak." I will believe it when I see it."

Just like I will believe Adobe Anywhere when I see it, or better media management in CS6 when I see it?

We all know what has "officially" been leaked to the press regarding FCPX's next releases. One of those is multichannel audio editing tools by the end of the year, along with dual viewers and some different format support.

They are speaking, whether or not an editor chooses to hear them is another story.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:27:01 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "but the organization and tracking of footage is particularly rugged, at least in my opinion. "

that's a kind way of putting it.

If they can't get out of the box of single project, second project import (and footage duplication) ala AE, thy'll run into real adoption problems. That said, if adobe anywhere is any indication, adobe appear to be preparing for some pretty surprising strides.

http://blogs.adobe.com/VideoRoad/2012/10/adobe-anywhere-for-video.html

They've done quite serious stuff at the backend to read it, including muxing all the operations down to a single stream to allow for multicam over a realistic dsl pipe.

If they implement adobe anywhere anything like as well as they generally implement on the whole - you could imagine it percolating pretty damn widely.

It reads as insanely useful for mid range boutiques, and, maybe even more so, within multifloor new media agencies where multiple parties chew on the same material for shifting collaborative reasons. Ending the duplication of those assets within premiere and prelude feels immense to me.

Its almost like 50's style IBM servers virtualised in the spine of the building delivering ubiquitous media for near trivial backend hardware investment and existing software. that's a sell.

adobe still have something like an apple level ability to call the game. After effects shifts tend to determine the kind of stuff we see, PS owns image editing - adobe might actually end up stepping in and determining the practice of distributed media as a backend to media work.

If - if - that pans out, the Adobe Suite cloud would present a pretty sizeable challenge to Motion 5 and FCPX 10 as they sit on the mac appstore.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:49:39 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "If they implement adobe anywhere anything like as well as they generally implement on the whole - you could imagine it percolating pretty damn widely.
"


Agreed, but this would require a pretty beefy system to handle this in the form of ultra fast storage/SAN/and the computer(s) to run it. It will be great for the big guys, no question. The blog says that it can serve 30 seats without a massive fibre channel installation, I would think that a medium sized one would be necessary. Perhaps not to each seat, but the backend of that machine streaming 30 r/w operations, even if the streams are small will require some horsepower (compression takes up a lot of processing cycles, therefore 30 real time compression streams will take up... lots more). There's still some physics here, it's not a sprinkle of magic dust quite yet.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "If - if - that pans out, the Adobe Suite cloud would present a pretty sizeable challenge to Motion 5 and FCPX 10 as they sit on the mac appstore."

Absolutely. We will see what happens in 2013.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:58:37 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Agreed, but this would require a pretty beefy system to handle this in the form of ultra fast storage/SAN/and the computer(s) to run it. It will be great for the big guys, no question. The blog says that it can serve 30 seats without a massive fibre channel installation, I would think that a medium sized one would be necessary. Perhaps not to each seat, but the backend of that machine streaming 30 r/w operations, even if the streams are small will require some horsepower (compression takes up a lot of processing cycles, therefore 30 real time compression streams will take up... lots more). There's still some physics here, it's not a sprinkle of magic dust quite yet."

Absolutely. 30 seats will need some serious server-side heavy metal, though the clients could be very, very light.

I'd guess the VARs will be all over this.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:17:22 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Absolutely. 30 seats will need some serious server-side heavy metal, though the clients could be very, very light."

Adobe Anywhere is viable for facilities that would otherwise invest in Avid Unity/ISIS/Interplay or Apple Xsan/Active Storage. I don't see small shops or even big agencies with media departments pursuing this. And when you get right down to it, how many projects really function long-distance? Most of the time a decent in-house network is what's really needed. This is an architecture targeted at broadcast plants, pure and simple. It's being driven by the push they are getting from enterprise users like broadcast groups and networks. Remember that's where Adobe makes a lot of its money, not single seats of Photoshop or Premiere Pro or After Effects.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:32:44 pm

[Oliver Peters] "And when you get right down to it, how many projects really function long-distance?"

I'm currently working with editors anywhere from 40 to 3000 miles away using Ichat theater and Skype Video and it's not very satisfying. I would love to be able to interface with editors over long distance. I think if it allows true collaboration at a distance without major SAN expenses it would be huge.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 11:06:13 pm

[Herb Sevush] " I think if it allows true collaboration at a distance without major SAN expenses it would be huge."

The demos don't seem to indicate that it will be that type of system. The media, compositing/effects and steaming engine live on the server. You access a project long-distance and the server feeds you a single, compressed stream while you edit. Nothing lives locally. I don't see anything where two or more editors can be working on the same project at the same time. It's not long-distance Unity. It's more of a long-distance check-out/check-in/publish operation.

How do you see this as NOT involving major SAN expenses? If we're talking about your facility, you would have to purchase, install and maintain the infrastructure, with includes additional server-side software.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 11:18:36 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I don't see small shops or even big agencies with media departments pursuing this."

disagree. You are incorrect here. I'm regularly in one- on two floors with 200 + peeps - regularly as freelance, and if adobe anywhere works, it is fundamentally transformative.

the kind of media duplication going on at OS level - grandfathering of renders, asset duplication, both primary and H264 offline across the network is off the scale. It's a mess.

look oliver - there is an opportunity to fundamentally improve the workflow. FCP7 shunted and opened file organisation back into the finder, and we all stopped using avid because it was a locked box. It is fundamentally important to be able to see the assets contained in the edit in process, for multiple parties during the edit.

however. It cannot be as messy as the direct single finder item getting repeatedly duplicated, and it can't be as black box as avid.

If adobe can properly virtualise and distribute the core video assets that feed into the suite, allowing trivial simultaneous collaboration, safe client clip picks and feedback tying into software like prelude from parties inside and clients outside the design organisation, within an ongoing project, if anywhere can implement this - if adobe manage a quarter of it, there actually is something fundamentally transformative and day to day useful in it.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 11:33:28 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "If adobe can properly virtualise and distribute the core video assets that feed into the suite, allowing trivial simultaneous collaboration, safe client clip picks and feedback tying into software like prelude from parties inside and clients outside the design organisation, within an ongoing project, if anywhere can implement this - if adobe manage a quarter of it, there actually is something fundamentally transformative and day to day useful in it."

That's a HUGE "IF" and I just don't see that sort of a system based on the demos Adobe has made available so far.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 11:47:43 pm

[Oliver Peters] "That's a HUGE "IF" and I just don't see that sort of a system based on the demos Adobe has made available so far."

sure.

but there are large parts of it standing, direct collaboration on the project is there, the assets are virtualised, and adobe do actually iterate like the proverbial hammer.

2013, as you say, is probably pretty much it.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Michael Gissing
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 11:47:55 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Adobe Anywhere is viable for facilities that would otherwise invest in Avid Unity/ISIS/Interplay or Apple Xsan/Active Storage. I don't see small shops or even big agencies with media departments pursuing this. And when you get right down to it, how many projects really function long-distance"

Actually most of my projects are long distance. I see adobe anywhere as a great way to further my workflow as much of my work involves interstate productions. Rather than a big facility SAN replacement, I see this as a way to further decentralise and also to avoid upload and download of full res media.

I can be grading and onlining and at the same time the DP and director can be at another facility interstate or overseas but watching with sufficient res to make decisions. Rather than constantly making h264s and uploading them for approval, I see this as a great way to have an interactive session. Similarly I sub out graphic design and AE work like rotoscoping. Again the AE artist can be anywhere and I have the full res work available plus an interactive session can happen with them plus me and the director somewhere else.

The power of Adobe Anywhere to me is to enable networking that is remote and reducing the need for single big networked facilities.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 9, 2012 at 1:03:00 am

[Michael Gissing] "I can be grading and onlining and at the same time the DP and director can be at another facility interstate or overseas but watching with sufficient res to make decisions."

I think everyone is reading WAAAAAY too much into this. These are all nice ideas, but the demo indicates that you log into a remote server via the cloud and are working with proxy media over the web or theoretically over an in-house LAN/WAN. Nothing about you editing and your client simultaneously watching your work. This would mean you, the client and the media are at 3 different locations. And this only appears to work with Premiere Pro, so definitely no long-distance grading (SpeedGrade), mixing (Audition), etc. It's also very unclear how dynamic the updates will be for on-the-fly changes other than cuts and dissolves.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 9, 2012 at 1:55:44 am

[Oliver Peters] "I think everyone is reading WAAAAAY too much into this."

Fair -- we are talking about a product demo at this point. But more on this in a minute.


[Oliver Peters] "These are all nice ideas, but the demo indicates that you log into a remote server via the cloud and are working with proxy media over the web or theoretically over an in-house LAN/WAN."

Not even proxy media -- a live stream. All image processing is done on the server, and there's zero media on the client.


[Oliver Peters] "And this only appears to work with Premiere Pro, so definitely no long-distance grading (SpeedGrade), mixing (Audition), etc."

At the IBC SuperMeet, Anywhere product manager Michael Coleman spoke about the "future of workflows" and defined Anywhere as a "collaboration platform" to allow "After Effects, Premiere Pro, and Prelude to work together on shared assets across a network." (SpeedGrade and Audition are conspicuously absent.)

FCPX gets a lot of credit for its ideas moreso than its implementations. In fact, many here are toughing the implementation out because they have some faith in the idea and believe Apple will make it better.

Anywhere -- a collaboration platform -- strikes me as a Big Idea. Like FCPX, the first version could be only the first step (though since it's targeting big-iron broadcasters, as you've pointed out, I suspect it will be much sharper at launch than FCPX).

You are absolutely right (as usual) that the rest of us will have to wait and see, and to get back to Aindreas's three-year window, I wouldn't personally make or advise any purchasing decision based on these two public demos.

However, I don't want to understate what Anywhere could become. The simple fact that Adobe has identified collaboration as a problem worth solving could be a big shift.

More specifically, though, the approach Adobe is taking with Anywhere is forward-thinking and open. It's cloud-based without being fully cloud-dependent; you can work with new footage locally while uploads happen in the background and you can work on your own servers. Anywhere productions are backed by the Collaboration Hub, running a database instead of traditional project files and allowing multiple users and multiple applications simultaneous access. Anywhere will integrate with existing MAMs (it has to, since it's aimed at broadcast) and the Collaboration Hub has APIs for extending the platform.

When Anywhere ships next year, it will not be everything we're talking about in this thread, but at the same time, it's already a lot more than a tool for simply sharing Premiere edits.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Michael Gissing
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 9, 2012 at 6:12:44 am

[Walter Soyka] "
When Anywhere ships next year, it will not be everything we're talking about in this thread, but at the same time, it's already a lot more than a tool for simply sharing Premiere edits."


Although the demo, a year out from release showed just a project share, I am with Walter in that my expectation is for a far more collaborative workflow. Who knows how Speed grade will integrate but it makes no sense to have part of the CS6 package excluded from Adobe Anywhere so I may be extrapolating on their intended direction. If Adobe just come up with a simple project share, then it is still exciting but I am not just guessing that they intent more and beyond a Pr only collaboration. Sure I am taking a punt on Adobe's end point but I can't take such a risk with any other company at the moment.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 9, 2012 at 12:57:09 am

[Oliver Peters] "Adobe Anywhere is viable for facilities that would otherwise invest in Avid Unity/ISIS/Interplay or Apple Xsan/Active Storage. I don't see small shops or even big agencies with media departments pursuing this."

I think that Adobe Anywhere's long game could be the FCPX long game, upside down. FCPX starts with a dude and a laptop, then grows into small shops as its capabilities and ecosystem expand. Adobe Anywhere starts with big broadcast today, but as the costs of storage and bandwidth drop, it becomes more attractive to smaller facilities looking for improved efficiencies.

At launch, I think you're right on that Anywhere is going to almost exclusively ISIS/Interplay-class installs. However, since Adobe isn't tied to big-ticket hardware sales, they can only benefit if Anywhere trickles down to today's Ethernet SAN/NAS set. I don't know how long that will realistically take -- my guess would be that 2013 is premature for major non-broadcast adoption -- but what 5 or 10 seat shop would not want better collaboration if it were available to them?

Sure, there's a lot of ifs here -- but certainly no more ifs here than we regularly bandy about for FCPX.


[Oliver Peters] "And when you get right down to it, how many projects really function long-distance?"

Well, most of mine... long-distance doesn't have to be across the world; it can be across town or across the state.

And outside my little bubble, virtually every large-scale VFX studio follows the sun today. They all have in-house systems for managing their assets and massive trans- and cross-continental data transfers.

What off-the-shelf options exist for long-distance work today in editorial? Interplay Sphere and Quantel? This is still a new space. A product like Adobe Anywhere that ties together multiple disciplines could create the ability for projects to function long-distance in a way that has been too hard to be worthwhile before.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 9, 2012 at 1:06:30 am

[Walter Soyka] "Well, most of mine... long-distance doesn't have to be across the world; it can be across town or across the state."

Sure, I do those, too, but we're not talking about projects coming from out of town. That's a different scenario than direct access to a server of media not co-located with you.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:26:55 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Absolutely. 30 seats will need some serious server-side heavy metal, though the clients could be very, very light."

Doesn't that kind of maths feel rather overwhelmingly strategic by adobe? and must have required pretty serious R&D to deliver the scenario?
*if it works*

I don't remember adobe being this melded into backend hardware spec sheets for next gen suite delivery.

the thing you would think about it is that it is aimed squarely to buttress their core editing platform - as a next generation suite component - it doesn't exist for AE or PS really, but as an underpinning to the entire suite through prelude and premiere as core suite components for small to mid-sized facilities?

if adobe execute it becomes an industry argument about paradigm delivery that apple, and FCPX, may have some difficulty with.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 8:55:42 pm

[Herb Sevush] " You can start with a fresh slate when re-coding for 64 bit but that does not require a total re-conceptualization of the basic software. PPro showed how this could be done"

I'm not sure I agree that PPro is a good example of this. The CS6 UI is certainly more streamlined, but there are similar operational issues with CS6 as there have been in most of the recent, previous versions. Little was changed operationally - aside from a performance boost evident with each new version. Most of the change was cosmetic and in generic, a mimic of Avid Media Composer.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 9:46:09 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Most of the change was cosmetic and in generic, a mimic of Avid Media Composer."

So I'll disagree with this anyway.

as far as I understand it, and in my playing, I now have realtime jkl trimming on a near par with media composer - that is a core attribute of avid long touted, entirely absent in FCPX and FCP7 before it.

In FCPX I have a laboured precision tool, mouse driven, where if I space bar slap to pause beyond the edit point for a dialogue point say, the skimmer will override the stop point once I move the mouse and I lose it. this is correct right?

Also in 6 I have both clip level and track level audio effects - not that I have ever gone mad for track level adjustment, but this combo is both useful and new?

bottom line oliver; you do phrase things nicely, but if it broadly, and successfully mimicked Avid's core editing functionality, which people seem to say it has - considering where 5.5 was, cosmetic seems a very odd word to choose.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:08:11 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "bottom line oliver; you do phrase things nicely, but if it broadly, and successfully mimicked Avid's core editing functionality, which people seem to say it has - considering where 5.5 was, cosmetic seems a very odd word to choose.
"


Well, cosmetic, because most of the improvements are reskinning the UI. But yes, that's an oversimplification, for sure. There's also a hardware abstraction to AJA and BMD card. In my testing, it isn't as good with these cards as X. The trimming is more like MC, but timeline-based trimming was in CS5.5 and before. Audio track behavior is better, but not as good as 7 or MC. Import/export behavior, multiple projects (not) and similar operational issues are unchanged.

FWIW - I never use the Precision Editor in X. Hate it and find no reason to use it. Other trimming methods are much better.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:22:39 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I'm not sure I agree that PPro is a good example of this. The CS6 UI is certainly more streamlined, but there are similar operational issues with CS6 as there have been in most of the recent, previous versions. Little was changed operationally - aside from a performance boost evident with each new version. Most of the change was cosmetic and in generic, a mimic of Avid Media Composer."

I don't know if that's completely fair, Oliver. Multicam, timeline trimming, project panel operations (hover scrub, setting I/O) and audio track assignment/routing are all (now) operationally different from previous versions. Of course, Adobe did work alot on the UI as you mentioned. But PPro CS6 is a lot more than a few UI and performance tweaks... at least in my opinion.

Also, I'm not sure Herb was talking about CS6 when he was talking about the ground up re-write of PPro... the 64 bit overhaul happened in CS5.

Thanks,

Shawn



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Herb Sevush
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:25:11 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I'm not sure I agree that PPro is a good example of this. The CS6 UI is certainly more streamlined, but there are similar operational issues with CS6 as there have been in most of the recent, previous versions. Little was changed operationally"

I believe it was in PPro version 5 that the 64 bit re-write occurred and the mercury playback engine installed, and the whole point of my comparison is that they could do this without changing the GUI operationally. Starting with a new slate can mean changing the underpinnings to allow for future evolutionary change without radically changing the editing experience. Adobe has done it both ways - the change from Premiere to Premiere Pro was as radical as the X introduction as far as users were concerned, right down to the inability to open old files. However this time around they tried the "everything's the same but better" option for a re-write, proof that you don't have to throw the entire program away to start anew.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:28:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "proof that you don't have to throw the entire program away to start anew."

Remember that they weren't starting with 12-15 year-old code based on QuickTime, which is now, no longer a core media architecture for Apple.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 10:37:05 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Remember that they weren't starting with 12-15 year-old code based on QuickTime, which is now, no longer a core media architecture for Apple."

I remember this but now we're back to the old argument that the magnetic paradigm was necessitated by the re-write. I fail to see how this can be true. There were many traditional NLE's that never used Quicktime, that never used any media wrapper for that matter. What does the absence of Quicktime have to do with the trackless magnetic timeline?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 11:11:21 pm

[Herb Sevush] "but now we're back to the old argument that the magnetic paradigm was necessitated by the re-write."

I'm not saying that at all. They certainly could have decided to rewrite a track-based, traditional NLE. They simply chose not to. We'll see if that's the right choice in a few years.

I do kind of find it ironic that on this same forum in another thread we are discussing the relative merits of Sony Vegas. It is certainly a is a good NLE, but just as foreign in design and methodology to most Avid/Adobe/FCP7 editors as is FCP X.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 9, 2012 at 4:10:01 pm

[Oliver Peters] " It is certainly a is a good NLE, but just as foreign in design and methodology to most Avid/Adobe/FCP7 editors as is FCP X."

Which is a major reason why Vegas never caught on.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 4:58:22 pm

[Oliver Peters] "One thing I do applaud Apple for is starting with a clean slate. "

Hear, hear.

At the same time, I think Apple is the only one who could have taken this risk and get away with it.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 5:14:46 pm

[Oliver Peters] "One thing I do applaud Apple for is starting with a clean slate."

Shumpeter's creative destruction in action. Sometimes it's necessary to start over to move forward. As you point out, this must be balanced against the cost of losing architectural stability and the effects that has on your users and their workflows.


[Jeremy Garchow] "At the same time, I think Apple is the only one who could have taken this risk and get away with it."

Because Apple users might be more loyal and more forgiving, or because Apple was willing and able to lose every single one of their previous FCP customers in order to go after new ones?

Autodesk has taken a big risk with their existing customers in rethinking the Smoke workflow and in repricing Smoke, and Adobe scrapped Premiere entirely a few years back to launch Premiere Pro.

I'd also argue that Premiere Pro is pretty young. Adobe is pretty free to chuck its legacy bits -- and looking over the last three releases, they have been doing exactly that.

Adobe's entrenched apps (Ps, Il, Ae) are a different story. Would I love to have a true 3D compositing environment in Ae without ray-tracing? Yes! Can Adobe pull it off without breaking everything they've built in Ae over the last two decades and alienating their user base? Different question...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 8, 2012 at 5:31:10 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Because Apple users might be more loyal and more forgiving, or because Apple was willing and able to lose every single one of their previous FCP customers in order to go after new ones?"

I think it's because they are willing to lose some of their previous loyal customers to ultimately make a better product, even if it means releasing a product that isn't ready for everyone quite yet.

[Walter Soyka] "Autodesk has taken a big risk with their existing customers in rethinking the Smoke workflow and in repricing Smoke, and Adobe scrapped Premiere entirely a few years back to launch Premiere Pro."

I think that Autodesk had to do that to compete. It's a smart business decision. Autodesk also has an ecosystem, it looks different from Apple's but it's there.

Adobe did scrap a few things in the past, but why do you think Adobe is getting a lot of attention lately? Adobe has done a good job of getting things ready from primetime (Pr CS5.5 to CS6 brought some great changes) but I think a lot of that is people looking for an Apple Hardware/FCS alternative or both.

[Walter Soyka] "I'd also argue that Premiere Pro is pretty young. Adobe is pretty free to chuck its legacy bits -- and looking over the last three releases, they have been doing exactly that."

Parts of it are young, parts of it are really old, as Oliver suggested. Even if the code is new, the way it operates is still kind of feels "unmodern". I am talking directly about media management. They are making great strides, though. No question about that.

[Walter Soyka] "Adobe's entrenched apps (Ps, Il, Ae) are a different story. Would I love to have a true 3D compositing environment in Ae without ray-tracing? Yes! Can Adobe pull it off without breaking everything they've built in Ae over the last two decades and alienating their user base? Different question..."

And here in lies the problem. At some point, you are going to have to start over, or release a new application. Or, if you are going to gradually transform Ae in to a true 3D application, you'd have to do it very very slowly to give people a chance to learn, and not alienate your loyal users, and keep the legacy features and support that everyone loves Ae for.

If you go the new route, you now have to support the Legacy, and find resources for the new app and you are now building two apps, not just one.

If you do a gradual transformation, you keep your legacy happy, but you risk not moving fast enough to attract the new 3D compositing crowd. They will look elsewhere. Those are not easy business decisions.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 9:40:49 pm

Thanks Jeremy for the advice. Flat files are not what I want. I am also interested in Speed grade as part of some workflows so yes I am backing Adobe to develop and so far I am encouraged by the fact that Wes is part of the team and developments like Adobe Anywhere show a workflow direction that suits me.


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Michael Sanders
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 12:35:49 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "[Michael Sanders] "Personally I don't care what Philip Bloom - or for that matter Walter Murch - has to say. I don't think he (that is PB) is much more than an ardent (and very good) self publicist. "

I like hearing what other people have to say because it may provide a perspective or a nugget of information that I hadn't experienced and/or thought of. Ultimately how I choose to operate depends on my needs but I do enjoy reading up and/or talking with other people to see what their experiences are like compared to my own.
"


Yes in hindsight my response was a bit harsh. It's always interesting to hear what other people think - but i just prefer to shape my opinions from people who are doing the job day in and day out be it camera or editing or whatever.

I'm just a little bit worried by how many times over the past few years I've read in various places "If X say's its no good then I mustn't use it".

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 3:21:40 am

I like what Philip has to say. He shoots nice images. He puts them together pretty well. His Dubai time lapse piece is worth watching. He works hard and I think it shows. Saying he's not an editor and his opinion is invalid makes no sense to me. Watch his videos, he edits. In my opinion, he edits just like someone who shoots their own stuff. It all makes very logical sense, all of the moments stand on their own. Shots are picked for composition and light. If CS6 helps makes those decisions, then so be it.

He also uses a lot of plugins to "finish".

The Creative Suite will be the next FCP in terms of ubiquity, I have no doubts about it. It's a perfectly logical decision, Adobe seems very committed, there are lots of tools available in the suite across many different post disciplines, Adobe presents a modern outlook on tapeless and interchange within Adobe products, and a modern outlook on what it means to 'own' software (or subscribe to it) and hopefully, all of this will only get better.

FCP fell in to the hands of many many people in the production field, not just "editors". Part of the reason it became so famous was because it fit in to multiple disciplines and became a general tool that was used beyond media editing, but it was also used for media display. My very first copy of FCP Legend came from a DP as a matter of fact. He said I needed to check it out. He was right. It is hard to go on a set and not see multiple copies of FCP7, and there are usually no "editors" around.

This does not mean that a person who decides to use FCPX is a ninny. It is also a decision. Choice is what today's production commerce environment is centered on. There isn't one way to finish, there isn't one type of editor, there's not one type of color science, tapeless format, or brand of lens. There isn't one type of camera, there isn't one NLE, there's isn't one job description, there isn't one tool to get work done.

I know I am a master of the obvious, but there is severe fragmentation now more than ever and it will only continue as computers do not seem to be suffering from scarcity.

There is also more than one way to make money in production. Philip also teaches. He's not a professional camera tester, he's a researcher and he shares his research in a variety of different methods, and as far as I can tell from here, he does a decent job of it.

If you took the time to figure out what a few different hard drives do that fit the needs of your job, Shane, I'm sure there's be a swath of people that might want to hear what you say even if you aren't a hard drive expert, but rather use them as part of your set of tools to get the job done. There's nothing wrong with that.

Jeremy


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 10:03:23 pm

[Shane Ross] "If he's going to tell us what editing app he's going to use and endorse...let me figure out what camera I think is the best option and endorse it."

come on - I love the bloom. His Blackmagic camera review was a sweet watch, and he strikes you as a natural grok for editing. Sky and beyond, he's been swimming in the stuff for years. its exposure largely isn't it?

my point is that I share, and in viewing it, shared his basic perception of the software - it feels, in the timeline particularly, and in the bins, and in the surrounding software, that adobe have, in a highly compressed competitive scenario, produced a working fundamental grasp of current editing. I buy PPro 6 - I liked it so much I bought the suite, said remington. don't ask me what I was doing before.

Adobe thought hard here, they produced jkl trimming that - as far as I get it, and its nice to play with - matches a key strength of avid, but more than that - I simply buy that adobe are in no way messing around here. they view this as a brass ring moment, and we are their audience. their only audience.

Back when this was a true rant town, I said that it is better that there be three competitors rather than two. Bottom line is that it was really important that
Adobe internalise the opportunity and produce a workable way forward.

Apple are in some sense trying to refashion their offering, but it is simply too weird. It's a programmer's esperanto of editing, filled with tags, primary storylines, the occasional need to evacuate all editing to the secondary, a square colour corrector - its just a ludicrous editing system. Its a bomb site.

given the navel gazing, egocentric, belly flop for the ages recently provided to us by apple's software engineers, it's as well we have a functioning, non-hardware tied editing software solution to stand with avid.

Again - given Apple's utterly ridiculous, ego driven implosion, if Adobe hadn't gotten it together - there would be, as they say, only one.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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John Davidson
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 3, 2012 at 11:28:23 pm

I liked this interview better when I first read it on PVC 6 months ago. Maybe PVC had exclusivity to it for six months before Phillip could post it on his blog.

Although it does remind us how long it's been since we got a real FCPX update.


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Mark Dobson
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 7:38:28 am

[John Davidson] "I liked this interview better when I first read it on PVC 6 months ago."

Yes, I thought I'd seen this before.

Phillip Bloom is always at pains to say that all he is doing is expressing his own opinions and that is what they are - his opinions. They have no more weight than those expressed by the members of this forum.

I'm personally a big fan of his site and have learnt an enormous amount from him in the last few years. I started following his blogs at the same time as he made his first films with the 5Dmk11 and that pushed me into trying out DSLR filming myself and that led to a total rejuvenation of my interest in filmmaking.

I think that his site is one of the most successful of its type and he is now in the process of changing the way it works through monetising some of his reviews using the new Tip Jar feature on Vimeo, one of his site sponsors.

Like many others he has decided that FCPX is not for him at the moment. What I've learnt from my time with FCPX is that it takes a long time to get used to, it's still incredibly buggy, lacks a lot of customisable features, but at the end of day it can work really well and produces sparklingly good results.

I think the next update will be a crucial one, when it's going to arrive is another thing, but from what's promised it should turn FCPX into a far more professional application, and slowly attract back users such as Phillip Bloom.


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Gary Huff
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 2:54:19 pm

[Mark Dobson] "but at the end of day it can work really well and produces sparklingly good results"

But that's the thing...so can every other NLE out there.


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Mark Dobson
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 5:25:01 pm

[Gary Huff] "[Mark Dobson] "but at the end of day it can work really well and produces sparklingly good results"

But that's the thing...so can every other NLE out there."


Well, so people say! I've only been able to compare FCPX with FCP7

But as you point out they all produce great results. It's just what you get used to.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Less a showdown, more a decision - Phillip Bloom outlines his reasoning for choosing PPro 6.
on Oct 4, 2012 at 6:40:26 pm

[Mark Dobson] " It's just what you get used to."

It's not always that subjective. Some software simply has better tools for certain workflows. There are certain jobs that PPro is simply not capable of handling efficiently, and that goes true for almost everything out there. I'd say that Avid is probably the software with the fewest limitations, and I say that as someone who has been avoiding it for 15 years.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Richard Cardonna
the photoshop of video
on Oct 6, 2012 at 12:28:19 am

all in all adobe states that its goal is to make its cs line into something indispensabil for video content production. can the same be said for fcpx or even avid.

rc


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TImothy Auld
Re: the photoshop of video
on Oct 6, 2012 at 1:09:50 am

Who the Hell knows? I will continue to use what works for me without regard to who says what. As will most others.

Tim


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